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PV-HS2000 Motherboard sources?

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August 21, 2004 4:44:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

I too got hit with storm damage. Lightning that is.
It took out my washing machine ($300 repair)
and my PV-HS2000. The Replay inputs are fried -- both
the cable in" and the other two composite inputs and S-VHS.
I have the unit on a UPS but the surge must have come in
over the cable. It didn't fry the VCR though.
Anyway, has anyone ever fixed the inputs?
or do I have to just replace the motherboard?
Is anyone selling these kinds of parts?

thanks,
Quintin
August 21, 2004 4:44:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

> I too got hit with storm damage. Lightning that is.
> It took out my washing machine ($300 repair)
> and my PV-HS2000. The Replay inputs are fried -- both
> the cable in" and the other two composite inputs and S-VHS.
> I have the unit on a UPS but the surge must have come in
> over the cable. It didn't fry the VCR though.
> Anyway, has anyone ever fixed the inputs?
> or do I have to just replace the motherboard?
> Is anyone selling these kinds of parts?
>

Oh yeah, BTW, everything else seems to still work.
Related resources
August 21, 2004 5:44:55 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

thanks!

"Hank" <hank@arlen.com> wrote in message
news:ZMxVc.5822$FV3.4892@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
> You are in luck.....not sure about the subscription though.....
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~mikemenard/ReplayTVShowstopper...
>
> > > Is anyone selling these kinds of parts?
>
>
>
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
August 21, 2004 1:29:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

A previous discussion covered some aspects of UPS, and
hardware protection in this newsgroup alt.video.ptv.tivo on
13 Jun 2003 entitled "Surge Supressors?" Discussion can be
read at
http://tinyurl.com/qbj9 .
The plug-in UPS does not even claim to provide the protection
your were hoping for. Furthermore that same solution would
have also protected the washing machine.

What is the one incoming path common to both damaged items?
AC electric. Appliances must have both an incoming and
outgoing surge path; else no damage. In your case, incoming
on AC electric (to damage both Replayer and washing machine).
Outgoing on Replay inputs. Cable, if properly earthed,
already has effective protection. AC electric - even with a
plug-in UPS that connects Replayer directly to AC mains when
not in battery backup mode - typically has no effective
protection unless you have done as described in those previous
posts.

Quintin wrote:
> I too got hit with storm damage. Lightning that is.
> It took out my washing machine ($300 repair)
> and my PV-HS2000. The Replay inputs are fried -- both
> the cable in" and the other two composite inputs and S-VHS.
> I have the unit on a UPS but the surge must have come in
> over the cable. It didn't fry the VCR though.
> Anyway, has anyone ever fixed the inputs?
> or do I have to just replace the motherboard?
> Is anyone selling these kinds of parts?
>
> thanks,
> Quintin
August 21, 2004 9:44:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

Thanks for the link, quite interesting,
misled and screwed by the evil marketers yet again,
if it's all true.

But isn't the neutral or ground wire good enough
to carry the surge to ground, in the case
of a plug-in protector?

These plug-in surge suppressor units are really worthless?
These UPS`s don't block surges?
Can it be true?


> The plug-in UPS does not even claim to provide the protection
> your were hoping for. Furthermore that same solution would
> have also protected the washing machine.
>

what do you mean by this? '...it doesn't work,
but it would have worked on the washer too...' ?
please explain.
August 21, 2004 10:54:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

> You are in luck.....not sure about the subscription though.....
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~mikemenard/ReplayTVShowstopper...
>

Oh, good, then he's still around I guess. That's good.
I sent an email to him too.

I bought a new motherboard from him a year ago.
He is a great individual.
August 21, 2004 11:04:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

Mike's email reply came back.
(He's even on the same email address as a year ago
-- it's amazing the spam hasn't ruined it.)

He told me to unplug it, so I did (30 minutes).
That's all it took, that fixed it.

This Mike Menard is a great guy,
from this, and my past experiences.

I would like to think I would have eventually
tried this on my own, but maybe not, 'who knows?'.....

Anyway, thanks Mike,

Quintin
August 21, 2004 11:05:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

and Hank
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
August 22, 2004 3:24:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

Lightning seeks earth ground as Franklin demonstrated in
1752. Give lightning an electrically shorter path to earth,
and lightning will not use a church steeple (or a household
appliance) to obtain earth ground. Effective protection
cannot stop or block the surge.

Those plug-in protectors hope you will *assume* they stop,
block, or absorb surges. Will that less than one inch
component stop what miles of sky could not? Of course not.
Again, the solution is to give lightning what it wants - earth
ground - using a path that does not include household
appliances. That means 'less than 10 foot' is another
important design characteristic.

So that lightning does not find other paths to earth ground,
then the incoming utility must shunt (connect or divert) short
as possible to earth. And not just any earth ground. All
incoming utilities must connect to the same single point
ground. IOW all incoming utilities must enter at a common
point - the service entrance. Figures from cinergy.com and
NIST in that post below demonstrate the concept.

Why short distance to earth? Wire is not a perfect
conductor. Wire is an electronic component. Concept
demonstrated by numbers are in this previous post cited
below. Also described is something called induced
transients. If the plug-in protector were using household
safety ground and neutral wire, then those grounding wires
would induce surges onto other adjacent wires. Transients
would be distributed throughout the building. Just another
reason why a transient must be kept outside the building.
Also described is a visual inspection to your primary
protector. A 'whole house' protector and building earth
ground is secondary protection.

This previous post covers numerous concepts: questions you
may not have realized you have as well as answering your
latest questions:
"Repairing Lightning Damaged Tv's" on 14 Jun 2004 at
http://makeashorterlink.com/?D6A612B19

Numerous electronic appliances exist including GFCIs in
bathroom and kitchen, furnace, smoke detectors, and washing
machine. Do you put a $25 protector on every one? Or install
one 'whole house' protector with the 'less than 10 foot' earth
ground connection - to effectively protect everything? Again,
the protector is not protection. Protection is earth ground.
That post refers to additional facts and details about
earthing in but another discussion. Protector is effective
when it makes a 'less than 10 foot' connection from the
incoming utility wire to the most critical and essential
'system' component - earth ground. That's the simple summary.
How to even make the system more robust for little additional
money - there is much to read.

Quintin wrote:
> Thanks for the link, quite interesting,
> misled and screwed by the evil marketers yet again,
> if it's all true.
>
> But isn't the neutral or ground wire good enough
> to carry the surge to ground, in the case
> of a plug-in protector?
>
> These plug-in surge suppressor units are really worthless?
> These UPS`s don't block surges?
> Can it be true?
>
>> The plug-in UPS does not even claim to provide the protection
>> your were hoping for. Furthermore that same solution would
>> have also protected the washing machine.
>
> what do you mean by this? '...it doesn't work,
> but it would have worked on the washer too...' ?
> please explain.
August 22, 2004 9:41:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

He's a keeper.....

> and Hank
August 22, 2004 11:39:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

wow, a whole new aspect of things.
thanks
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
August 22, 2004 11:42:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

w_tom wrote:


> What is the one incoming path common to both damaged items?
> AC electric. Appliances must have both an incoming and
> outgoing surge path; else no damage. In your case, incoming
> on AC electric (to damage both Replayer and washing machine).
> Outgoing on Replay inputs. Cable, if properly earthed,
> already has effective protection. AC electric - even with a
> plug-in UPS that connects Replayer directly to AC mains when
> not in battery backup mode - typically has no effective
> protection unless you have done as described in those previous
> posts.

I'm a bit foggy on the washing machine.. It has it's own path to ground
in many cases (Water path)

However as for the UPS... Many but not all UPS units do indeed include
surge suppression as part of the package.

This is one of those "READ THE LABEL" issues

Another device you can look into if you have the dollars is a power
conditioner. Basically this is a modular unit, with 3 modules

One is a battery charger module, 120 VAC becomes 12VDC (well 13.6 to
14.5 if memory serves)

Module 2 is a 12 volt, often deep discharge, battery

Module 3 is an inverter, 12 VDC to 120 VAC 60Hz pure, and I do mean
PURE sine wave.

Noise on the line,,, Gone, Spikes, Gone, Surges, Gone, and I've seen
one of these units where even a lightning strike (This was in a radio
tower which took a direct hit) GONE Though I do admit the battery
charger module needed a bit of replacement after the strike. (They did
not find half of it, appears it turned to plasma)
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
August 22, 2004 11:47:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

Quintin wrote:

> Thanks for the link, quite interesting,
> misled and screwed by the evil marketers yet again,
> if it's all true.
>
> But isn't the neutral or ground wire good enough
> to carry the surge to ground, in the case
> of a plug-in protector?
>
> These plug-in surge suppressor units are really worthless?
> These UPS`s don't block surges?
> Can it be true?
>
>
>
>>The plug-in UPS does not even claim to provide the protection
>>your were hoping for. Furthermore that same solution would
>>have also protected the washing machine.
>>
>
>
> what do you mean by this? '...it doesn't work,
> but it would have worked on the washer too...' ?
> please explain.
>
>
>

From the ARRL handbooks (American Radio Relay League) There is one and
only ONE thing that will protect your electronic gear from a direct
lightning strike and that is unplugging it and putting it in a shielded box

There have been cases where units were completely unplugged and the
spike jumped the gap to the gear (At least 3 feet is suggested between
plug and socket) And if it's electronic, and can be affected by EMP,
putting in a EMP shield is the only way to guarantee damage.

Of course putting it in a solid steel box and closing the lid every time
it rains is not really an option... This is why they invented insurance

The ARRL is an orgination of amature radio oprators, They have been
dealing with lightning issues longer than anyone else and have centuries
worth of expierence. Remember, when it comes to radio Marconi was a
amature (There were no commericial/proffessionals when he started)
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
August 23, 2004 12:45:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

Not quite correct. Early 20th Century Ham radio operators
demonstrated the concept even before it was defined by GE and
Westinghouse research papers. They would put the antenna lead
into a mason jar and still suffer damage. Disconnecting alone
was not effective. Only when antenna lead was grounded, then
damage stopped.

In (I think it was) Singapore was an interesting phone line
protector device that did same thing. A radio antenna on roof
would detect the lightning pulse. Then a relay in basement
would 1) disconnect the phone line and 2) connect the incoming
phone wire to earth ground. This would eliminate surge
damage. A disconnected phone line does not result in an
interrupted conversation until the phone line is 'open' for
about 400 milliseconds. This protector only earthed the phone
line for less than 400 milliseconds. Household phone
equipment was protected AND a telephone conversation continued
completely unaware of a phone line disconnect.

What is the common factor in protection? Not
disconnecting. Effective protection means earthing the
incoming wire - in early 20th century Ham radios as it also
works in Singapore.

Finally time to quote the industry professionals with
decades of experience:
http://www.harvardrepeater.org/news/lightning.html
> Well I assert, from personal and broadcast experience spanning
> 30 years, that you can design a system that will handle
> *direct lightning strikes* on a routine basis. It takes some
> planning and careful layout, but it's not hard, nor is it
> overly expensive. At WXIA-TV, my other job, we take direct
> lightning strikes nearly every time there's a thunderstorm. Our
> downtime from such strikes is almost non-existant. The last
> time we went down from a strike, it was due to a strike on the
> power company's lines knocking *them* out, ...
> Since my disasterous strike, I've been campaigning vigorously
> to educate amateurs that you *can* avoid damage from direct
> strikes. The belief that there's no protection from direct
> strike damage is *myth*. ...
> The keys to effective lightning protection are surprisingly
> simple, and surprisingly less than obvious. Of course you
> *must* have a single point ground system that eliminates all
> ground loops. And you must present a low *impedance* path for
> the energy to go. That's most generally a low *inductance*
> path rather than just a low ohm DC path.

A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground
which completely eliminates plug-in protectors as effective.
Disconnecting alone just is not as effective.

John in Detroit wrote:
> From the ARRL handbooks (American Radio Relay League) There is
> one and only ONE thing that will protect your electronic gear from
> a direct lightning strike and that is unplugging it and putting it
> in a shielded box
>
> There have been cases where units were completely unplugged and
> the spike jumped the gap to the gear (At least 3 feet is
> suggested between plug and socket) And if it's electronic, and
> can be affected by EMP, putting in a EMP shield is the only way
> to guarantee damage.
>
> Of course putting it in a solid steel box and closing the lid
> every time it rains is not really an option... This is why they
> invented insurance
>
> The ARRL is an orgination of amature radio oprators, They have
> been dealing with lightning issues longer than anyone else and
> have centuries worth of expierence. Remember, when it comes to
> radio Marconi was a amature (There were no
> commericial/proffessionals when he started)
August 23, 2004 3:14:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

Is what both you guys are saying that there's no benefit to a surge
protector, or that they don't do MUCH good? Maytag told me to put a surge
protector on my washer. Is there no point to it at all?

I think I remember the power conditioners were a few hundred bucks. That's
too much to spend for each individual appliance.
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
August 23, 2004 2:45:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

w_tom wrote:

> Not quite correct. Early 20th Century Ham radio operators
> demonstrated the concept even before it was defined by GE and
> Westinghouse research papers. They would put the antenna lead
> into a mason jar and still suffer damage. Disconnecting alone
> was not effective. Only when antenna lead was grounded, then
> damage stopped.

True. However.

You are radios with genuine tubes, Genuine firebottles that helped keep
your shack warm on cold winter nights (Actually, I kind of like tubes)
and they could take a SERIOUS EMP and still keep on a-trucking

Today's solid state hardware is much more senestive to magnetic fields
which is why the only way to guarentee safety is to shield it against EMP

Oh yes.. The ARRL published a story about a house where the ham antenna
took a direct hit from a lightening bolt. Not even grounding was enough

And I've been in a building which had a commericial radio tower
"Attached" (Ok, about 100 yards off to the south-south-east) when said
tower took a direct hit.

NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING will protect against a direct hit, however
properly shielded electronics may surviven if the house does not burn
down around them
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
August 23, 2004 2:53:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

Quintin wrote:

> Is what both you guys are saying that there's no benefit to a surge
> protector, or that they don't do MUCH good? Maytag told me to put a surge
> protector on my washer. Is there no point to it at all?
>
> I think I remember the power conditioners were a few hundred bucks. That's
> too much to spend for each individual appliance.
>
>
Oh, no.. Surge protectors do a great job of dealing with what they are
designed to do. That is most anything other than a near or direct
lighting strike

Air conditioners, Furnace blowers, and other large electrical loads
kicking in or out, They cover it. Some strange things I've seen the
power company do, They covered it. I've had thousands of dollars worth
of electronics saved by surge protectors when the power company messed
up. (Still lost about a hundred dollars worth, including a blower motor
but that's a lot better than what could have happened)

Most surges are not nearly "Lightning strike" level

It is just that folks who expect a surge suppressor to protect them in a
direct hit from a lightening bolt are in for disappointment is all

Cause NOTHING can protect against that kind of surge save a locked safe

And even it is not 100% in the case of modern electronics


Let's put it in ballistic terms.

Imagine if you will your friendly neighborhood police officer, IN full
uniform (Complete with a good vest) some jerk with a .22 shoots him.
Odds are some bruising will occur but not many .22's will penetrate a
standard police vest.

That is an "every day" kind of surge and is what the protectors are
designed for.

Now... Stand a dummy (Please no live officer) wearing the same identical
vest, in front one of the main deck guns on a warship and fire off a
round which is darn near as big as your car.

That.... Is a direct hit from lightening. (You won't even be able to
find the pieces of the dummy)


But not many bad dudes have a deck gun in their pocket

And not many houses are struck by lightening (Direct hit)
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
August 23, 2004 4:05:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

When grounding is not enough to protect from direct
lightning strikes, well, we return again to the bottom line
expression. A surge protector is only as effective as its
earth ground. The earth ground was insufficient - a human
failure.

Polyphaser is a benchmark in this protection industry. Do
they discuss their products in application notes? Of course
not. Polyphaser is a benchmark because they provide such
effective protection. Polyphaser discusses earthing
extensively:
http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_technical.asp
When a direct strike does damage, then the first place to
start is to suspect a defective earth ground.

Protecting from direct lightning strike is routine. 25
direct strikes every year to FM and TV equipment on the Empire
State Building. 40 direct strikes every year were to the
WTC. Where is all the damage?

Aircraft are routinely struck by lightning every year.
Where are all the aircraft failing from the sky due to
lightning?

Just some more examples of routine direct lightning strikes
without damage:
http://www.xantrex.com/support/docserve.asp?id=337
> The first step in inverter protection is to make sure that all
> equipment in the system is physically grounded at the same
> location.

They demonstrate how bad grounding can result in the
unacceptable - damage from a direct strike.

http://lists.contesting.com/_towertalk/1997-April/00441...
> The basic scenario is to install a Single Point Ground System
> that is installed at the building entry. It shunts everything
> to ground before it goes in the building. If you can keep it
> outside, then you don't really have to do much inside. IMO
> disconnecting the cables is more psychological than
> preventive.

http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_PEN1028.asp
> Lightning strikes somewhere across the street close to the
> below grade West cable vault. ... The first line of defense
> is the telco protection panel, but the panel must be
> connected to a low resistance / inductance ground. There was
> no adequate ground available in the telephone room.

http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm
> With a sensitive CMOS controlled transmitter and a talking
> remote control selected for the installation, I knew that
> any transient overvoltage protection devices I would specify
> would need a very conductive path to ground to divert strike
> energy away from the equipment. ...
> In sixteen months, the site has maintained twenty-four hour
> per day operation with ZERO downtime except due to AC power
> failure. With equipment so susceptible to transients, this
> kind of performance is unusual in this region, especially
> on this hill.

The last defines Ufer grounding. Ufer grounding was
designed so that direct lightning strikes to ammo igloos still
never caused damage. Again, its all about the quality of that
earth ground. Direct strike damage is so avoidable as to be
considered human failure.

John in Detroit wrote:
> True. However.
>
> You are radios with genuine tubes, Genuine firebottles that helped
> keep your shack warm on cold winter nights (Actually, I kind of
> like tubes) and they could take a SERIOUS EMP and still keep on
> a-trucking
>
> Today's solid state hardware is much more senestive to magnetic
> fields which is why the only way to guarentee safety is to
> shield it against EMP
>
> Oh yes.. The ARRL published a story about a house where the ham
> antenna took a direct hit from a lightening bolt. Not even
> grounding was enough
>
> And I've been in a building which had a commericial radio tower
> "Attached" (Ok, about 100 yards off to the south-south-east)
> when said tower took a direct hit.
>
> NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING will protect against a direct hit,
> however properly shielded electronics may surviven if the house
> does not burn down around them
August 23, 2004 7:30:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

AH AH AH AH, okay, <still laughing from example>,
so a surge protector is SOME* protection
but not total protection
okay gotcha

It sounds like joules is the magic number to look for.
the more, the better


"John in Detroit" <Blanked@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:a1kWc.5781$Y94.5237@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
> Quintin wrote:
>
> > Is what both you guys are saying that there's no benefit to a surge
> > protector, or that they don't do MUCH good? Maytag told me to put a
surge
> > protector on my washer. Is there no point to it at all?
> >
> > I think I remember the power conditioners were a few hundred bucks.
That's
> > too much to spend for each individual appliance.
> >
> >
> Oh, no.. Surge protectors do a great job of dealing with what they are
> designed to do. That is most anything other than a near or direct
> lighting strike
>
> Air conditioners, Furnace blowers, and other large electrical loads
> kicking in or out, They cover it. Some strange things I've seen the
> power company do, They covered it. I've had thousands of dollars worth
> of electronics saved by surge protectors when the power company messed
> up. (Still lost about a hundred dollars worth, including a blower motor
> but that's a lot better than what could have happened)
>
> Most surges are not nearly "Lightning strike" level
>
> It is just that folks who expect a surge suppressor to protect them in a
> direct hit from a lightening bolt are in for disappointment is all
>
> Cause NOTHING can protect against that kind of surge save a locked safe
>
> And even it is not 100% in the case of modern electronics
>
>
> Let's put it in ballistic terms.
>
> Imagine if you will your friendly neighborhood police officer, IN full
> uniform (Complete with a good vest) some jerk with a .22 shoots him.
> Odds are some bruising will occur but not many .22's will penetrate a
> standard police vest.
>
> That is an "every day" kind of surge and is what the protectors are
> designed for.
>
> Now... Stand a dummy (Please no live officer) wearing the same identical
> vest, in front one of the main deck guns on a warship and fire off a
> round which is darn near as big as your car.
>
> That.... Is a direct hit from lightening. (You won't even be able to
> find the pieces of the dummy)
>
>
> But not many bad dudes have a deck gun in their pocket
>
> And not many houses are struck by lightening (Direct hit)
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
August 23, 2004 7:30:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

Its called a common mode transient. It comes down all wires
simultaneously. So what does the plug-in protector see?
Nothing. It sees no voltage difference - therefore sees no
surge - does nothing. That same common mode surge then
continues on through adjacent computer to damage the
computer. What did the plug-in protector do? Nothing.

The only way a protector is going to see that kind of surge
is to connect to earth ground. So and again - those plug-in
protectors have all but no earth ground - no effective
protection.

We have houses full of refrigerators and furnace that turn
off and on all day. Where are all the radios, LED alarm
clocks, dimmer switches, and microwave ovens destroyed daily
by these household appliances? No such damage exists. Once
we apply numbers, no destructive surge exists from the
refrigerator or furnace. Again, those are only noise
sources. Any protection from that noise already exists in all
appliances.

It is only the destructive surge - ie. the direct lightning
strike - that we are concerned for. That means a 'whole
house' protector is required so that the destructive surge
will not overwhelm protection inside all appliances.

Joules is how we determine surge protector life expectancy.
A plug-in or UPS protector rated at 345 joules actually may
only use 115 joules and never more than 230 joules in
protection. Lets compare this to the 1000 joule 'whole house'
protector that uses all its joules. If the 345 protector is
good for two same sized surges, then the 1000 joule 'whole
house protectors is good for something like 200 same sized
surges. The effectiveness of joules increases exponentially.
1000 joules is considered minimal. Equivalent in a plug-in
protector would be 3000 joules.

Now we spend tens of times more money on the plug-in
protector - and it does not provide sufficient joules? Just
another in a long list of reasons why plug-in protectors are
not effective.

But now it gets interesting. How to increase sales. Sell a
grossly undersized plug-in protector. A surge insufficient to
overwhelm internal appliance protection instead damages the
grossly undersized protector. Then the naive homeowner says,
"The protector sacrificed itself to protect my computer."
Obvious not true. The plug-in protector failed. The
computer's own internal protection saved the computer. But
the naive homeowner buys more of that ineffective plug-in
protector AND he recommends it to friends. Grossly
undersizing the protector means more profits - the consumer be
damned.

There are no significant advantages to plug-in protectors.
Anything they would be doing is already performed by the
properly sized, better located, and tens of times less
expensive 'whole house' protector.

Quintin wrote:
>
> AH AH AH AH, okay, <still laughing from example>,
> so a surge protector is SOME* protection
> but not total protection
> okay gotcha
>
> It sounds like joules is the magic number to look for.
> the more, the better
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
August 24, 2004 2:26:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

w_tom wrote:
> When grounding is not enough to protect from direct
> lightning strikes, well, we return again to the bottom line
> expression. A surge protector is only as effective as its
> earth ground. The earth ground was insufficient - a human
> failure.
>
> Polyphaser is a benchmark in this protection industry. Do
> they discuss their products in application notes? Of course
> not. Polyphaser is a benchmark because they provide such
> effective protection. Polyphaser discusses earthing
> extensively:
> http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_technical.asp
> When a direct strike does damage, then the first place to
> start is to suspect a defective earth ground.
>
> Protecting from direct lightning strike is routine. 25
> direct strikes every year to FM and TV equipment on the Empire
> State Building. 40 direct strikes every year were to the
> WTC. Where is all the damage?
>
> Aircraft are routinely struck by lightning every year.
> Where are all the aircraft failing from the sky due to
> lightning?
>

You are equating survival with "no damage" and making a few other errors.

CMOS happens to be fairly rugged, true, it is sensitive, but it's also
rugged,

Aircraft are not grounded, they are, howver, very good "Shields" They
are also flown by means that are not, entierly, electronic (The
electronics are called navigational aids, they don't (usually) fly the
plane other than the auto pilot and that is why we have a manual pilot)

Those strikes you cite on the various tall buildings... Often require
repair of equipment. The strike I mentioned, equipment needed repair
afterwords. Including some of the hardware that was in the building 100
yards away

Good grounding and design can limit damage, But Ligitining will damage
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
August 24, 2004 2:36:04 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

w_tom wrote:

> We have houses full of refrigerators and furnace that turn
> off and on all day. Where are all the radios, LED alarm
> clocks, dimmer switches, and microwave ovens destroyed daily
> by these household appliances? No such damage exists. Once
> we apply numbers, no destructive surge exists from the
> refrigerator or furnace. Again, those are only noise
> sources. Any protection from that noise already exists in all
> appliances.

Never had a computer wiped out by a refrigerator kicking in eh. Well I
have (Thankfully it was a work computer not a personal one

You are using a bad example. You are saying "Oh the AC just kicked in
and nothing blew up" I'm responding "This time"

Damage builds up when power surges. Now.. Some hardware has built in
sure protection (IE: anything I build, and yes, I do design and build)
and some is very well designed and can shrug off most power surges
(again, I tend to over build when designing a power supply to take care
of this) but most gear is designed for the enhancement of the bottom
line and does not much like surges

Surges and spikes are like carpel tunnel... IT's called a repetitive
stress injury. No single press of a keyboard key causes the pain but
all of them put together and you are hurting. This is the kind of
"Stress" that the surge protector is designed to protect against.


> It is only the destructive surge - ie. the direct lightning
> strike - that we are concerned for. That means a 'whole
> house' protector is required so that the destructive surge
> will not overwhelm protection inside all appliances.

That is what INSURANCE is for

> Joules is how we determine surge protector life expectancy.
> A plug-in or UPS protector rated at 345 joules actually may
> only use 115 joules and never more than 230 joules in
> protection. Lets compare this to the 1000 joule 'whole house'
> protector that uses all its joules. If the 345 protector is
> good for two same sized surges, then the 1000 joule 'whole
> house protectors is good for something like 200 same sized
> surges. The effectiveness of joules increases exponentially.
> 1000 joules is considered minimal. Equivalent in a plug-in
> protector would be 3000 joules.
>
> Now we spend tens of times more money on the plug-in
> protector - and it does not provide sufficient joules? Just
> another in a long list of reasons why plug-in protectors are
> not effective.
>
> But now it gets interesting. How to increase sales. Sell a
> grossly undersized plug-in protector. A surge insufficient to
> overwhelm internal appliance protection instead damages the
> grossly undersized protector. Then the naive homeowner says,
> "The protector sacrificed itself to protect my computer."
> Obvious not true. The plug-in protector failed. The
> computer's own internal protection saved the computer. But
> the naive homeowner buys more of that ineffective plug-in
> protector AND he recommends it to friends. Grossly
> undersizing the protector means more profits - the consumer be
> damned.
>
> There are no significant advantages to plug-in protectors.
> Anything they would be doing is already performed by the
> properly sized, better located, and tens of times less
> expensive 'whole house' protector.
>

There is, in fact, an advantage to plug in units in some installations
but a whole house job is a good idea indeed.

And yes, Joules is the key, the more the better
August 25, 2004 9:10:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

I've had the same problems with the video inputs, don't know why it happens.
usually after a crash/freeze and you reset the unit (hold down the power
button) it will restart but the video will not work (black screen). For
some reason, if you unplug it and leave it off for a few minutes 5+ minutes
or more, it will work again after you plug it back in. I've tried
unplugging for a short period, less than 1 minute, and it doesn't fix the
problem.


"Quintin" <fred@fred.frd> wrote in message
news:T0NVc.32004$cT6.14867@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> Mike's email reply came back.
> (He's even on the same email address as a year ago
> -- it's amazing the spam hasn't ruined it.)
>
> He told me to unplug it, so I did (30 minutes).
> That's all it took, that fixed it.
>
> This Mike Menard is a great guy,
> from this, and my past experiences.
>
> I would like to think I would have eventually
> tried this on my own, but maybe not, 'who knows?'.....
>
> Anyway, thanks Mike,
>
> Quintin
>
>
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
August 26, 2004 3:32:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

Me wrote:

> I've had the same problems with the video inputs, don't know why it happens.
> usually after a crash/freeze and you reset the unit (hold down the power
> button) it will restart but the video will not work (black screen). For
> some reason, if you unplug it and leave it off for a few minutes 5+ minutes
> or more, it will work again after you plug it back in. I've tried
> unplugging for a short period, less than 1 minute, and it doesn't fix the
> problem.
>
>
A warm reboot does not clear all modem registers and other system parts.
You have to unplug and allow the ps capacitors to drain.
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
August 26, 2004 5:22:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

A warm reboot does reset all modem registers, etc. That is
if the modem driver is properly written. But then a warm boot
even resets all peripherals because the PCI bus goes through a
very comprehensive reinitialization process. The setup for
PCI alone is about as complex as DOS. PCI and PnP is an
Operating System in itself - it is that complex.

This warm boot initialization assumes a design defect does
not exist. Bootup process is rather involved. But if a
computer's power cord is completely removed from a system for
15 seconds, and the computer does not properly boot, then
there is an internal hardware problem with that computer.
Probably a design problem.

To better understand bootups is a discussion entitled
"Booting - Hot and Cold - 101" at:

http://www.bitzenbytes.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file...

Bottom line - if it takes power removed for more than but a
few seconds to reset a machine, then the machine somewhere has
a design problem.

That was power removed both from computer AND from monitor.
Not just turned off. You must remove both power cords for a
few seconds.

Tony D wrote:
> Me wrote:
>> I've had the same problems with the video inputs, don't know why
>> it happens. usually after a crash/freeze and you reset the unit
>> (hold down the power button) it will restart but the video will
>> not work (black screen). For some reason, if you unplug it and
>> leave it off for a few minutes 5+ minutes or more, it will work
>> again after you plug it back in. I've tried unplugging for a
>> short period, less than 1 minute, and it doesn't fix the problem.
> >
> A warm reboot does not clear all modem registers and other system parts.
> You have to unplug and allow the ps capacitors to drain.
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
August 26, 2004 2:24:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

w_tom wrote:

> A warm reboot does reset all modem registers, etc. That is
> if the modem driver is properly written. But then a warm boot
> even resets all peripherals because the PCI bus goes through a
> very comprehensive reinitialization process. The setup for
> PCI alone is about as complex as DOS. PCI and PnP is an
> Operating System in itself - it is that complex.
>
> This warm boot initialization assumes a design defect does
> not exist. Bootup process is rather involved. But if a
> computer's power cord is completely removed from a system for
> 15 seconds, and the computer does not properly boot, then
> there is an internal hardware problem with that computer.
> Probably a design problem.
>

I'm not sure fifteen seconds is long enough to fully drain the power
supply however my normal method involves counting to ten slowly so I
guess fifteen seconds should be enough.

I do know I had to use that method once myself
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
August 26, 2004 3:02:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

w_tom wrote:
> A warm reboot does reset all modem registers, etc. That is
> if the modem driver is properly written. But then a warm boot
> even resets all peripherals because the PCI bus goes through a
> very comprehensive reinitialization process. The setup for
> PCI alone is about as complex as DOS. PCI and PnP is an
> Operating System in itself - it is that complex.
>
> This warm boot initialization assumes a design defect does
> not exist. Bootup process is rather involved. But if a
> computer's power cord is completely removed from a system for
> 15 seconds, and the computer does not properly boot, then
> there is an internal hardware problem with that computer.
> Probably a design problem.
>
> To better understand bootups is a discussion entitled
> "Booting - Hot and Cold - 101" at:
>
> http://www.bitzenbytes.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file...
>
> Bottom line - if it takes power removed for more than but a
> few seconds to reset a machine, then the machine somewhere has
> a design problem.
>
> That was power removed both from computer AND from monitor.
> Not just turned off. You must remove both power cords for a
> few seconds.

My comment was not about what SHOULD be true, it was about what IS true.
A warm reboot will not clear many instances of a fouled REPLAY.
August 26, 2004 6:48:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

When this happens, the machine still works, it records and it does
everything except show Live video. Recorded shows/video works. Somehow the
video inputs are messed up but everything else seems to work. The only
solution is to unplug and wait approximately 5 or more minutes.
Someone not familiar with this will think they have a damaged / blown Replay
unit (as did the original poster!)

My point is that is SHOULD work after you unplug power for less than 2
minutes. It shouldn't take that long for the machine to properly drain power
and reset. I've unpluged and waited 30 seconds or a minute, and it
wouldn't solve the problem. This is not just a fluke, because I have owned
the Reply for about 5 years now and it happens once or a few times a year
(after some sort of crash)

I agree that there is a design problem somewhere in the units to cause this
type of failure. (Bad power supply?)



"Tony D" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:8cWdnYikltIYZrDcRVn-rA@comcast.com...
> w_tom wrote:
> > A warm reboot does reset all modem registers, etc. That is
> > if the modem driver is properly written. But then a warm boot
> > even resets all peripherals because the PCI bus goes through a
> > very comprehensive reinitialization process. The setup for
> > PCI alone is about as complex as DOS. PCI and PnP is an
> > Operating System in itself - it is that complex.
> >
> > This warm boot initialization assumes a design defect does
> > not exist. Bootup process is rather involved. But if a
> > computer's power cord is completely removed from a system for
> > 15 seconds, and the computer does not properly boot, then
> > there is an internal hardware problem with that computer.
> > Probably a design problem.
> >
> > To better understand bootups is a discussion entitled
> > "Booting - Hot and Cold - 101" at:
> >
> > http://www.bitzenbytes.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file...
> >
> > Bottom line - if it takes power removed for more than but a
> > few seconds to reset a machine, then the machine somewhere has
> > a design problem.
> >
> > That was power removed both from computer AND from monitor.
> > Not just turned off. You must remove both power cords for a
> > few seconds.
>
> My comment was not about what SHOULD be true, it was about what IS true.
> A warm reboot will not clear many instances of a fouled REPLAY.
August 26, 2004 7:42:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

In a switcher power supply the discharge time for the capacitors is measured in
milliseconds.
The "ripple" they are dealing with is 20khz or so. That is the reason they do
switching in the first place, to hold down the size of the componants.
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
August 26, 2004 8:45:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

One spot I would look for a problem is bypass resistors on
main electrolytic capacitors (inside power supply). Those
resistors are installed to discharge capacitors in but seconds
- necessary for human safety. It is possible that the safety
resistor is failed. But I don't advise you to dig in and fix
them.

Another discharge circuit (inside the motherboard). For
example, the essential master reset circuit (using a
simplistic and inexpensive design) might use a diode to
discharge the master reset timing capacitor. With a missing
diode, then a master reset capacitor might take many minutes
to discharge - so that it can master reset all registers on
power up. Again, computers must reset all registers on every
powerup. But it cannot initialize if the master reset circuit
is defective.

These are only possibilities that would cause unique
behavior in that one unit. Furthermore they demonstrate a well
proven concept from W E Deming: "Inspection to improve quality
is too late, ineffective, costly. ... Quality comes not from
inspection, but from improvement of the production process."
This failure would be directly traceable to a factory defect.
A defect that always existed but that took how long to first
notice?

Me wrote:
> When this happens, the machine still works, it records and it does
> everything except show Live video. Recorded shows/video works.
> Somehow the video inputs are messed up but everything else seems
> to work. The only solution is to unplug and wait approximately
> 5 or more minutes. Someone not familiar with this will think they
> have a damaged / blown Replay unit (as did the original poster!)
>
> My point is that is SHOULD work after you unplug power for less
> than 2 minutes. It shouldn't take that long for the machine to
> properly drain power and reset. I've unpluged and waited 30
> seconds or a minute, and it wouldn't solve the problem. This
> is not just a fluke, because I have owned the Reply for about
> 5 years now and it happens once or a few times a year
> (after some sort of crash)
>
> I agree that there is a design problem somewhere in the units
> to cause this type of failure. (Bad power supply?)
Anonymous
a b V Motherboard
August 26, 2004 11:50:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.replaytv (More info?)

= Again, computers must reset all registers on every
> powerup.

Cause a foul-up on your scsi bus and a warm reboot on your PC won't work
either most o the time.
!