Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

Hacks to turn Series 2 units into stand-alone DVR?

Last response: in Home Theatre Legacy
Share
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 5:38:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Greetings,

I am wondering if there are hacks that can turn a Tivo2 into a stand alone
DVR? Since Sean thinks Tivo is going belly-up any minute now there should be
lots of T2 units available at local garage sales...LOL.

Any ideas?

Thanks
TC
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 5:38:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Tony Clark wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I am wondering if there are hacks that can turn a Tivo2 into a stand
alone
> DVR? Since Sean thinks Tivo is going belly-up any minute now there
should be
> lots of T2 units available at local garage sales...LOL.
>
> Any ideas?

I'm assuming you mean a stand alone DVR that doesn't require service?

Yes there are hacks but are not talked about since that is equivalent
to stealing service from TiVo and is greatly frowned upon. Although
there will probably be TiVo service for the next decade (regardless of
the lies Sean posts), if the TiVo service ever did disappear, the hacks
to get the TiVos to work without service would be made public.
March 13, 2005 5:38:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"Tony Clark" <curiousgeorge1964@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:CINYd.7845$oO4.4448@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Greetings,
>
> I am wondering if there are hacks that can turn a Tivo2 into a stand alone
> DVR?

If S2 Tivos are not already stand alone dvr's, what are they?
Related resources
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 9:00:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"Kenny" <spcolor@animalation.com> wrote in message
news:39huo6F60coraU1@individual.net...
>
> "Tony Clark" <curiousgeorge1964@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:CINYd.7845$oO4.4448@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> Greetings,
>>
>> I am wondering if there are hacks that can turn a Tivo2 into a stand
>> alone DVR?
>
> If S2 Tivos are not already stand alone dvr's, what are they?
>
>

Tivo 2 requires a Tivo service plan. In other words you cannot set the Tivo
to record channel 13 at 8pm on Monday evening without having a Tivo
subscription. At least that's the way I understand it.

Cheers
TC
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 9:23:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

<in2sheep@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110682632.647909.36120@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
SNIP

>
> I'm assuming you mean a stand alone DVR that doesn't require service?
>
> Yes there are hacks but are not talked about since that is equivalent
> to stealing service from TiVo and is greatly frowned upon. Although
> there will probably be TiVo service for the next decade (regardless of
> the lies Sean posts), if the TiVo service ever did disappear, the hacks
> to get the TiVos to work without service would be made public.
>

Yes, I mean does not require service. I don't see how this is "stealing"
from Tivo however. All I want to do is to be able to set a time, date and
channel and record a program. All manually. After all I do own the hardware.
I have no complaints with Tivo, but that doesn't mean I will always use the
service. I may even upgrade the hardware down the road when Tivo HD becomes
more cost effective but I might want to use the old box as a stand-alone
device.

Cheers
TC
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 12:43:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Tony Clark wrote:
>
> Yes, I mean does not require service. I don't see how this is
"stealing"
> from Tivo however. All I want to do is to be able to set a time, date
and
> channel and record a program. All manually. After all I do own the
hardware.
> I have no complaints with Tivo, but that doesn't mean I will always
use the
> service. I may even upgrade the hardware down the road when Tivo HD
becomes
> more cost effective but I might want to use the old box as a
stand-alone
> device.

You bought the hardware, which is yours to do as you please. If you
want to use the OS and apps currently installed on that hardware as a
DVR however, you need service.

http://customersupport.tivo.com/knowbase/root/public/tv...

If you want to put your own OS on the hardware, you can, but you have
to pay for service to use what is currently there. Those are just the
rules for the item you purchased. Trying to circumvent this rule from
TiVo is equivalent to theft of service since it's the capability to
record shows (among other things) that is what the TiVo service
provides.
March 13, 2005 1:13:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:00:24 GMT, "Tony Clark"
<curiousgeorge1964@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Kenny" <spcolor@animalation.com> wrote in message
>news:39huo6F60coraU1@individual.net...
>>
>> "Tony Clark" <curiousgeorge1964@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:CINYd.7845$oO4.4448@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>> Greetings,
>>>
>>> I am wondering if there are hacks that can turn a Tivo2 into a stand
>>> alone DVR?
>>
>> If S2 Tivos are not already stand alone dvr's, what are they?
>>
>>
>
>Tivo 2 requires a Tivo service plan. In other words you cannot set the Tivo
>to record channel 13 at 8pm on Monday evening without having a Tivo
>subscription. At least that's the way I understand it.
>
>Cheers
>TC
>

Just another way Tivo's screws it's customers.

Sean
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 3:34:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:13:18 -0500, Sean wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:00:24 GMT, "Tony Clark"
> <curiousgeorge1964@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Tivo 2 requires a Tivo service plan. In other words you cannot set the Tivo
>>to record channel 13 at 8pm on Monday evening without having a Tivo
>>subscription. At least that's the way I understand it.
>
> Just another way Tivo's screws it's customers.

ROFL

What can you do with your Cable Co.'s DVR without a subscription?

Is your precious cable company screwing it's customers too, since you
can't even keep the box without a subscription?

Hell the minute you cancel, you probably lose access to the box.

--
Lenroc
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 3:39:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:23:31 +0000, Tony Clark wrote:

> All I want to do is to be able to set a time, date and
> channel and record a program.

So buy a VCR, or a TV tuner for your PC, or a Series 1 TiVo, etc.

--
Lenroc
March 14, 2005 1:36:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 12:34:40 -0700, Lenroc
<lenroc@NOSPAMFORYOU.hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:13:18 -0500, Sean wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:00:24 GMT, "Tony Clark"
>> <curiousgeorge1964@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Tivo 2 requires a Tivo service plan. In other words you cannot set the Tivo
>>>to record channel 13 at 8pm on Monday evening without having a Tivo
>>>subscription. At least that's the way I understand it.
>>
>> Just another way Tivo's screws it's customers.
>
>ROFL
>
>What can you do with your Cable Co.'s DVR without a subscription?
>
>Is your precious cable company screwing it's customers too, since you
>can't even keep the box without a subscription?
>
>Hell the minute you cancel, you probably lose access to the box.


And the minute yout tivo shits the bed you're screwed out of your
"lifetime" subscription.

I can drop an anvil on my cable dvr and have it replaced for free.

Sean
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 1:36:28 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:36:27 -0500, Sean wrote:

> I can drop an anvil on my cable dvr and have it replaced for free.

Bullshit. You break it, you've bought it.

If it breaks by itself, _that's_ when you get a free replacement. Try
_reading_ before you sign on the dotted line next time.

--
Lenroc
March 14, 2005 2:52:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"Tony Clark" <curiousgeorge1964@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YFQYd.7969$oO4.7063@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Kenny" <spcolor@animalation.com> wrote in message
> news:39huo6F60coraU1@individual.net...
>>
>> "Tony Clark" <curiousgeorge1964@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:CINYd.7845$oO4.4448@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>> Greetings,
>>>
>>> I am wondering if there are hacks that can turn a Tivo2 into a stand
>>> alone DVR?
>>
>> If S2 Tivos are not already stand alone dvr's, what are they?
>>
>>
>
> Tivo 2 requires a Tivo service plan. In other words you cannot set the
> Tivo to record channel 13 at 8pm on Monday evening without having a Tivo
> subscription. At least that's the way I understand it.
>
> Cheers
> TC
>

You are correct, except that what you say has absolutely nothing to do with
what a 'stand alone' Tivo dvr is.
'Stand alone' means that the Tivo is not incorporated into another type of
device such as a Directv reciever or a DVD player/recorder.
The series 2 Tivo is a stand alone Tivo dvr. The fact that a sub. is
required does not change that fact in any way.
March 14, 2005 9:38:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

* Kenny Wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
>
> "Tony Clark" <curiousgeorge1964@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:YFQYd.7969$oO4.7063@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>
>> "Kenny" <spcolor@animalation.com> wrote in message
>> news:39huo6F60coraU1@individual.net...
>>>
>>> "Tony Clark" <curiousgeorge1964@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:CINYd.7845$oO4.4448@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>>> Greetings,
>>>>
>>>> I am wondering if there are hacks that can turn a Tivo2 into a
>>>> stand alone DVR?
>>>
>>> If S2 Tivos are not already stand alone dvr's, what are they?
>>
>> Tivo 2 requires a Tivo service plan. In other words you cannot
>> set the Tivo to record channel 13 at 8pm on Monday evening
>> without having a Tivo subscription. At least that's the way I
>> understand it.
>>
>
> You are correct, except that what you say has absolutely nothing
> to do with what a 'stand alone' Tivo dvr is.

Except that in the context of the OP's question SA does not refer to
the Tivo definition of SA, rather just the ability to use it as a DVR
without a subscription.

> 'Stand alone' means that the Tivo is not incorporated into another
> type of device such as a Directv reciever or a DVD
> player/recorder. The series 2 Tivo is a stand alone Tivo dvr.

Again, in the context of the OP's question this seems incorrect.

> The
> fact that a sub. is required does not change that fact in any way.

Well, FWIW, a SUB is NOT required on an SA series 1 Tivo

--
David
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 9:38:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:38:19 +0000, SINNER wrote:

> Except that in the context of the OP's question SA does not refer to
> the Tivo definition of SA, rather just the ability to use it as a DVR
> without a subscription.

Right. In this group, the OP's comments were ambiguous, and somewhat
misleading, but not _wrong_.

"Standalone" doens't mean "non-DirecTV" in the "real world", only in the
TiVo-verse ;) 

Posting in this NG doesn't automatically mean that someone knows all the
jargon.

--
Lenroc
March 14, 2005 9:46:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"SINNER" <arcade.master@googlemail.net> wrote in message
news:Xns961980911B92FLouiscypherhellorg@140.99.99.130...
>* Kenny Wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
>>
>> "Tony Clark" <curiousgeorge1964@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:YFQYd.7969$oO4.7063@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>>
>>> "Kenny" <spcolor@animalation.com> wrote in message
>>> news:39huo6F60coraU1@individual.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Tony Clark" <curiousgeorge1964@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:CINYd.7845$oO4.4448@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am wondering if there are hacks that can turn a Tivo2 into a
>>>>> stand alone DVR?
>>>>
>>>> If S2 Tivos are not already stand alone dvr's, what are they?
>>>
>>> Tivo 2 requires a Tivo service plan. In other words you cannot
>>> set the Tivo to record channel 13 at 8pm on Monday evening
>>> without having a Tivo subscription. At least that's the way I
>>> understand it.
>>>
>>
>> You are correct, except that what you say has absolutely nothing
>> to do with what a 'stand alone' Tivo dvr is.
>
> Except that in the context of the OP's question SA does not refer to
> the Tivo definition of SA, rather just the ability to use it as a DVR
> without a subscription.
>

Making up your own defintion does not make it so.


>> 'Stand alone' means that the Tivo is not incorporated into another
>> type of device such as a Directv reciever or a DVD
>> player/recorder. The series 2 Tivo is a stand alone Tivo dvr.
>
> Again, in the context of the OP's question this seems incorrect.
>

So as long as you think you know what you're talking about, you actually do?



>> The
>> fact that a sub. is required does not change that fact in any way.
>
> Well, FWIW, a SUB is NOT required on an SA series 1 Tivo
>

That's very nice of you to bring up, but who the &%$# is discussing S1
units?
March 15, 2005 4:20:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

* Kenny wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:

> "SINNER" <arcade.master@googlemail.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns961980911B92FLouiscypherhellorg@140.99.99.130...

>>> You are correct, except that what you say has absolutely nothing
>>> to do with what a 'stand alone' Tivo dvr is.

>> Except that in the context of the OP's question SA does not refer to
>> the Tivo definition of SA, rather just the ability to use it as a DVR
>> without a subscription.

> Making up your own defintion does not make it so.

Its not about definitions, its about context. The TIVO Definition of SA
is not the gospel.

>>> 'Stand alone' means that the Tivo is not incorporated into another
>>> type of device such as a Directv reciever or a DVD
>>> player/recorder. The series 2 Tivo is a stand alone Tivo dvr.

>> Again, in the context of the OP's question this seems incorrect.

> So as long as you think you know what you're talking about, you actually do?

What?

>>> The
>>> fact that a sub. is required does not change that fact in any way.

>> Well, FWIW, a SUB is NOT required on an SA series 1 Tivo

> That's very nice of you to bring up, but who the &%$# is discussing S1
> units?

We are discussing unsubbed Tivo's and since that is the only legal
option it is certainly relavant in this conversation.

--
David
Let us treat men and women well;
Treat them as if they were real;
Perhaps they are.
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
March 15, 2005 4:20:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"SINNER" <99nesorjd@gates_of_hell.invalid> wrote in message
news:4hphg2xqpe.ln2@news.gates_of_hell.com...
>>>> The
>>>> fact that a sub. is required does not change that fact in any way.
>
>>> Well, FWIW, a SUB is NOT required on an SA series 1 Tivo
>
>> That's very nice of you to bring up, but who the &%$# is discussing S1
>> units?
>
> We are discussing unsubbed Tivo's


Really? since when? and to think that all this time I thought the topic
here was about S2 Tivos and using them without a subscrption.

> and since that is the only legal
> option it is certainly relavant in this conversation.

No, it's currently one of a few practical alternatives.
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 11:44:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Kenny wrote:
> If S2 Tivos are not already stand alone dvr's, what are they?

Glorified doorstops if Tivo ever goes out of business.

-Eric
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 1:01:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 08:44:02 -0800, elrous0 wrote:

> Kenny wrote:
>> If S2 Tivos are not already stand alone dvr's, what are they?
>
> Glorified doorstops if Tivo ever goes out of business.

People already know how to roll their own guide data to upload to a stock
TiVo. These techniques will likely become much more widespread if the TiVo
service ever ceases to be offered, a contingency which is highly unlikely
in the first place.

--
Lenroc
March 15, 2005 4:50:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

* Kenny wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:

> "SINNER" <99nesorjd@gates_of_hell.invalid> wrote in message
> news:4hphg2xqpe.ln2@news.gates_of_hell.com...
>>>>> The
>>>>> fact that a sub. is required does not change that fact in any way.

>>>> Well, FWIW, a SUB is NOT required on an SA series 1 Tivo

>>> That's very nice of you to bring up, but who the &%$# is discussing S1
>>> units?

>> We are discussing unsubbed Tivo's


> Really? since when? and to think that all this time I thought the topic
> here was about S2 Tivos and using them without a subscrption.

Please explain to me how the above two statements are different.

Mine says "We are discussing unsubbed Tivos"

And yours says we are discussing S2 Tivos without a sub.

>> and since that is the only legal
>> option it is certainly relavant in this conversation.

> No, it's currently one of a few practical alternatives.

No, its the ONLY legal way to use a TIVO without a sub and by your own
admission, that is what we are discussing.

--
David
The college graduate is presented with a sheepskin to cover his
intellectual nakedness.
-- Robert M. Hutchins
March 15, 2005 7:19:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

* Wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:

> I'm amazed at the ability of "Kenny" and "SINNER" to take a simple
> misunderstanding of terms and turn it into a major confrontation
> for all the world to see.

I am even more amazed that that you felt the need to add your 2 cents
to the thread and yet add no value. FWIW, I didnt misunderstand
anything and it seemed Lenroc agreed.

--
David
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 12:16:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Tony Clark Wrote:
> <in2sheep@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1110682632.647909.36120@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> >
> SNIP
>
> >
> > I'm assuming you mean a stand alone DVR that doesn't require
> service?
> >
> > Yes there are hacks but are not talked about since that is
> equivalent
> > to stealing service from TiVo and is greatly frowned upon. Although
> > there will probably be TiVo service for the next decade (regardless
> of
> > the lies Sean posts), if the TiVo service ever did disappear, the
> hacks
> > to get the TiVos to work without service would be made public.
> >
>
> Yes, I mean does not require service. I don't see how this is
> "stealing"
> from Tivo however. All I want to do is to be able to set a time, date
> and
> channel and record a program. All manually. After all I do own the
> hardware.
> I have no complaints with Tivo, but that doesn't mean I will always use
> the
> service. I may even upgrade the hardware down the road when Tivo HD
> becomes
> more cost effective but I might want to use the old box as a
> stand-alone
> device.
>
> Cheers
> TC
your wrong, any tivo can manually record a program with out the
service. the only thing is, you can not program by name. You can tell
it to program by channel and time with out the service. I have a tivo
without service right now.. and that is what I do to record the
programs I want. I have tivo since it came out, I have 3 of them.. I
also have replay tv. tivo is much better than the 522 dvr from
dish....


--
cybergal, Posted this message at http://www.SatelliteGuys.US
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 12:16:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:16:10 -0500, cybergal wrote:

> your wrong, any tivo can manually record a program with out the
> service. the only thing is, you can not program by name. You can tell
> it to program by channel and time with out the service.

You're wrong.

Not all TiVos can be programmed to record without service.

The thread here is specifically about _Series 2_ units. Standalone Series
2 units cannot record without a subscription. Without a subscription, they
quickly enter what is referred to (in-software) as "Boat Anchor Mode" --
as in, that's all the unit is good for ;) 

> I have a tivo without service right now.. and that is what I do to
> record the programs I want.

Good for you. It's either not a Standalone unit, or it's not a Series 2
unit. Whatever it is, it's not the subject of this thread.

--
Lenroc
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 8:49:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"Kenny" <spcolor@animalation.com> wrote in message
news:39mpijF64i2bbU1@individual.net...
>
SNIP

>>
>
> Making up your own defintion does not make it so.
>
>
>>> 'Stand alone' means that the Tivo is not incorporated into another
>>> type of device such as a Directv reciever or a DVD
>>> player/recorder. The series 2 Tivo is a stand alone Tivo dvr.
>>
>> Again, in the context of the OP's question this seems incorrect.
>>
>
> So as long as you think you know what you're talking about, you actually
> do?
>
>

Actually if you read my original post I asked if a Tivo 2 could me made into
a stand-alone DVR, NOT a stand-alone Tivo DVR. While it's a subtle
difference, there is a difference. A stand-alone DVR does not require a
subscription to operate. It may also not have all the same features as a
Tivo DVR. I think everyone here gets what I am asking and that is how to use
the Tivo hardware without a subscription like a disk-based VCR.

>
>>> The
>>> fact that a sub. is required does not change that fact in any way.
>>
>> Well, FWIW, a SUB is NOT required on an SA series 1 Tivo
>>
>
> That's very nice of you to bring up, but who the &%$# is discussing S1
> units?
>
Well the fact that a series 1 Tivo can be used without a subscription is
relevant to the discussion. It means that with the proper software the
hardware can do what I am asking.

Cheers
TC
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 8:49:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 05:49:22 +0000, Tony Clark wrote:

> Well the fact that a series 1 Tivo can be used without a subscription is
> relevant to the discussion. It means that with the proper software the
> hardware can do what I am asking.

No, it doesn't. Series 1 units have different hardware.

--
Lenroc
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 8:56:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

<elrous0@pop.uky.edu> wrote in message
news:1110905042.781588.61760@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Kenny wrote:
>> If S2 Tivos are not already stand alone dvr's, what are they?
>
> Glorified doorstops if Tivo ever goes out of business.
>
> -Eric
>

Not necessarily and hence why I asked. By hacking into the Tivo OS many
things can be done with the hardware that would make it useful even if the
Tivo service goes away.

Cheers
TC
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 10:06:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Randy S. wrote:
> >>No, it doesn't. Series 1 units have different hardware.
> >
> >
> > You mean software.
>
> No, he meant hardware. Series 1 and Series 2 even use different
processors.
>
> > The software is what allows it to record without a sub.
>
> This is true, and I agree that Lenroc's above statement was a bit
> off-topic. It's not the hardware that prevents unsubbed operation.

I took it to mean that if the series 1 and series 2 used the same
hardware, you could take the 1.3 OS version (or whatever it was) that
makes a series 1 act like a VCR and install it on a series 2 to make it
act like a VCR. Since they have different hardware, there is no
released TiVo OS to make a series 2 act like a VCR.

Similar to how you can't take the OS from a series 2 that has folders
and MRV/HMO and install it on a series 1 box.
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 10:06:25 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

> Not necessarily and hence why I asked. By hacking into the Tivo OS many
> things can be done with the hardware that would make it useful even if the
> Tivo service goes away.
>
> Cheers
> TC

Arggh, these arguments over semantics are a waste of time. How about this:

- TiVo Series 2 DVR's (without DVD reader/writers that have TiVo Basic)
cannot be used legally with TiVo software without a subscription.

- Hacking the TiVo software on a series 2 (w/out TiVo Basic) to operate
without a subscription would be theft of service and is highly
discouraged by most of the TiVo community

- Using your own software not developed by TiVo on a TiVo DVR would be
legal, but difficult considering the proprietary hardware (mpeg
decoders, etc.) and programming expertise required.

- If TiVo service did go "away" at some point (much more unlikely today
then when this discussion began), the TiVo community would likely cease
discouraging point #2 above.

Does that help?

Randy S.
March 16, 2005 10:46:40 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:46:04 -0700, Lenroc <lenroc@NOSPAMFORYOU.hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 05:49:22 +0000, Tony Clark wrote:
>
>> Well the fact that a series 1 Tivo can be used without a subscription is
>> relevant to the discussion. It means that with the proper software the
>> hardware can do what I am asking.
>
>No, it doesn't. Series 1 units have different hardware.

You mean software. The software is what allows it to record without a sub.
There was a time, in version 2 of the software, where Tivo disabled units that
didn't have subs. People bitched because that was never disclosed, and Tivo
opened them up again with version 3 of the software.

In other words, your Series 2 unit most certainly can record without a sub if
Tivo were to ever release software allowing it to do so. OR, if someone
figures out how to do this with the existing software.
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 11:00:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

>>No, it doesn't. Series 1 units have different hardware.
>
>
> You mean software.

No, he meant hardware. Series 1 and Series 2 even use different processors.

> The software is what allows it to record without a sub.

This is true, and I agree that Lenroc's above statement was a bit
off-topic. It's not the hardware that prevents unsubbed operation.

<snip>

> In other words, your Series 2 unit most certainly can record without a sub if
> Tivo were to ever release software allowing it to do so. OR, if someone
> figures out how to do this with the existing software.

Of course your second sentence would be theft of service (people *have*
figured out how to do this, and no, it's not discussed here). I'm not
implying that there is anything wrong with your first statement.

Randy S.
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 1:38:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

> I took it to mean that if the series 1 and series 2 used the same
> hardware, you could take the 1.3 OS version (or whatever it was) that
> makes a series 1 act like a VCR and install it on a series 2 to make it
> act like a VCR. Since they have different hardware, there is no
> released TiVo OS to make a series 2 act like a VCR.
>
> Similar to how you can't take the OS from a series 2 that has folders
> and MRV/HMO and install it on a series 1 box.
>

Well, you are correct, I guess it depends on whether this thread is
conceptual or practical.

Randy S.
Anonymous
March 17, 2005 9:43:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"Randy S." <rswittNO@SPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news:D 197g2$18bq$1@spnode25.nerdc.ufl.edu...
SNIP

>
> Arggh, these arguments over semantics are a waste of time. How about
> this:
>
> - TiVo Series 2 DVR's (without DVD reader/writers that have TiVo Basic)
> cannot be used legally with TiVo software without a subscription.
>

No argument there.

> - Hacking the TiVo software on a series 2 (w/out TiVo Basic) to operate
> without a subscription would be theft of service and is highly discouraged
> by most of the TiVo community
>

Maybe we are talking semantics again, but I don't get the "theft of service"
argument. As I understand it, the Tivo software is built upon a base of
Linux code, to what extent I am not certain. If someone developed a piece of
code that would select a channel at a pre-determined time and day and set
the Tivo to record for some time period how would that be theft of service?
Not trying to argue the point, I just don't see how it's theft. (Note that
my example assumes some use of the Tivo software that actually controls the
video capture and recording mechanisms so it's a bit different than your
suggestion below.)

> - Using your own software not developed by TiVo on a TiVo DVR would be
> legal, but difficult considering the proprietary hardware (mpeg decoders,
> etc.) and programming expertise required.
>

Never having opened up a Tivo I can't speak to the level of difficulty in
developing code to use the hardware. I suspect the issue is not the
proprietary hardware but the lack of documentation on the interfaces to the
hardware and the library routines used to access that hardware. Clearly some
people have been able to make modifications to Tivo units and have been able
to figure out how to access backdoor features.

> - If TiVo service did go "away" at some point (much more unlikely today
> then when this discussion began), the TiVo community would likely cease
> discouraging point #2 above.
>
True enough though I think it's somewhat hard to steal something from a
company that no longer exists. The issue as I see it is when new and better
Tivo hardware becomes available (such as HD Tivo) I may not want to trash my
Series 2 but try and get some basic use out of it without having to pay for
a subscription. Seems like a reasonable concept considering I own the
hardware.

Cheers
TC
Anonymous
March 17, 2005 9:47:15 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"Lenroc" <lenroc@NOSPAMFORYOU.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:p QPZd.4452$ZE5.1936@fed1read03...
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 05:49:22 +0000, Tony Clark wrote:
>
>> Well the fact that a series 1 Tivo can be used without a subscription is
>> relevant to the discussion. It means that with the proper software the
>> hardware can do what I am asking.
>
> No, it doesn't. Series 1 units have different hardware.
>
> --
> Lenroc

Just because the hardware is different doesn't preclude the ability for the
appropriate software to control the hardware in a similar manner. For
example, I can have a Linux machine running on an Intel X86 PC or on a HP
PA-RISC workstation, or a Sun SPARC server. The hardware is all different
yet the software masks those differences quite nicely. I'll concede that
there is no guarantee that this can be done in software but it might be
possible.

TC
Anonymous
March 17, 2005 9:47:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:47:15 +0000, Tony Clark wrote:

> "Lenroc" <lenroc@NOSPAMFORYOU.hotmail.com> wrote :
>> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 05:49:22 +0000, Tony Clark wrote:
>>
>>> Well the fact that a series 1 Tivo can be used without a subscription is
>>> relevant to the discussion. It means that with the proper software the
>>> hardware can do what I am asking.
>>
>> No, it doesn't. Series 1 units have different hardware.
>
> Just because the hardware is different doesn't preclude the ability for the
> appropriate software to control the hardware in a similar manner.

I didn't say that it does.

I pointed out that your logic, quoted above, was invalid.

--
Lenroc
Anonymous
March 17, 2005 10:53:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

>>- TiVo Series 2 DVR's (without DVD reader/writers that have TiVo Basic)
>>cannot be used legally with TiVo software without a subscription.
>>
>
>
> No argument there.
>
>
>>- Hacking the TiVo software on a series 2 (w/out TiVo Basic) to operate
>>without a subscription would be theft of service and is highly discouraged
>>by most of the TiVo community
>>
>
>
> Maybe we are talking semantics again, but I don't get the "theft of service"
> argument. As I understand it, the Tivo software is built upon a base of
> Linux code, to what extent I am not certain. If someone developed a piece of
> code that would select a channel at a pre-determined time and day and set
> the Tivo to record for some time period how would that be theft of service?
> Not trying to argue the point, I just don't see how it's theft. (Note that
> my example assumes some use of the Tivo software that actually controls the
> video capture and recording mechanisms so it's a bit different than your
> suggestion below.)

Doesn't your agreement w/ point 1 imply acceptance of point 2? But I
would also assert that just because Tivo uses Linux as the platform for
their product, it *doesn't* mean that they don't use proprietary
software on top of it. You can't "modify" GPL'd code and restrict it,
but you can certainly run closed code on top of it. Also you'd need to
cut out all the bits that receive information externally from Tivo or
their partners, including guide data, service updates, time syncing,
etc., since that is clearly a "service" that you are no longer paying for.

>>- Using your own software not developed by TiVo on a TiVo DVR would be
>>legal, but difficult considering the proprietary hardware (mpeg decoders,
>>etc.) and programming expertise required.
>>
>
>
> Never having opened up a Tivo I can't speak to the level of difficulty in
> developing code to use the hardware. I suspect the issue is not the
> proprietary hardware but the lack of documentation on the interfaces to the
> hardware and the library routines used to access that hardware. Clearly some
> people have been able to make modifications to Tivo units and have been able
> to figure out how to access backdoor features.

I agree with you here, but that's basically what I was saying. What
makes proprietary hardware difficult to code for is that the API is not
documented and must be reverse engineered. Code that deals with
non-proprietary hardware (or doesn't deal w/ hardware at all) is
relatively easy to modify, and is what most current Tivo hacks do today.

>>- If TiVo service did go "away" at some point (much more unlikely today
>>then when this discussion began), the TiVo community would likely cease
>>discouraging point #2 above.
>>
> True enough though I think it's somewhat hard to steal something from a
> company that no longer exists.

And that's why they would stop discouraging it. Why do I feel like
we're going in circles here.

> The issue as I see it is when new and better
> Tivo hardware becomes available (such as HD Tivo) I may not want to trash my
> Series 2 but try and get some basic use out of it without having to pay for
> a subscription. Seems like a reasonable concept considering I own the
> hardware.

Tivo decided not to go that direction w/ series 2 units, at least for
now. Perhaps when new units are released they will reduce the
subscription rate or implement Tivo basic or something like it in the
S2's at that time. But that doesn't change any of the above.

Randy S.
Anonymous
March 17, 2005 4:46:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Mark wrote:
>
> It's ONLY theft if you are using that unit to access the guide data
at Tivo's
> servers.
>
> If you hack the box to be able to work as a standalone unit that
doesn't need
> to dial in anywhere, you aren't stealing anything.

I'm not so sure that's true. You may not be licensed to use certain
pieces of the software on the box. If you continue to use TiVo's code
without paying the subscription, that may be illegal. The hardware is
yours but you don't buy all rights to the software with your purchase.

One would have to remove all the (non-GPL) TiVo code before getting
this to work without stealing anything.
March 17, 2005 7:14:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:00:18 -0500, "Randy S." <rswittNO@SPAMgmail.com> wrote:

>
>>>No, it doesn't. Series 1 units have different hardware.
>>
>>
>> You mean software.
>
>No, he meant hardware. Series 1 and Series 2 even use different processors.
>
>> The software is what allows it to record without a sub.
>
>This is true, and I agree that Lenroc's above statement was a bit
>off-topic. It's not the hardware that prevents unsubbed operation.
>
><snip>
>
>> In other words, your Series 2 unit most certainly can record without a sub if
>> Tivo were to ever release software allowing it to do so. OR, if someone
>> figures out how to do this with the existing software.
>
>Of course your second sentence would be theft of service (people *have*
>figured out how to do this, and no, it's not discussed here). I'm not
>implying that there is anything wrong with your first statement.

It's ONLY theft if you are using that unit to access the guide data at Tivo's
servers.

If you hack the box to be able to work as a standalone unit that doesn't need
to dial in anywhere, you aren't stealing anything.
Anonymous
March 17, 2005 8:13:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Randy S. wrote:
> > However, your use of the software that happened to come preloaded
on the
> > box is subject to the terms of TiVo's licensing agreement. One part
of
> > that agreement states that you only have license to the software as
long
> > as you have a subscription.
>
> Not to mention that I'm sure that you agree *again* to the acceptable

> use policy when you activate your service.

http://www.tivo.com/5.11.2.asp

"...TiVo retains title to and ownership of all the software for the
TiVo DVR and certain intellectual property rights in the TiVo DVR..."

So, even though you bought and own the hardware, the software isn't
yours to do with as you please.
March 17, 2005 8:31:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On 17 Mar 2005 13:46:32 -0800, in2sheep@yahoo.com wrote:

>
>Mark wrote:
>>
>> It's ONLY theft if you are using that unit to access the guide data
>at Tivo's
>> servers.
>>
>> If you hack the box to be able to work as a standalone unit that
>doesn't need
>> to dial in anywhere, you aren't stealing anything.
>
>I'm not so sure that's true. You may not be licensed to use certain
>pieces of the software on the box. If you continue to use TiVo's code
>without paying the subscription, that may be illegal. The hardware is
>yours but you don't buy all rights to the software with your purchase.

Nope. I bought the box. Never signed any agreement. I can do with it as I
please so long as I'm not accessing Tivo's (or anyone elses) pay databases.
It really is that simple.

Let the backyard lawyers step in now....
Anonymous
March 17, 2005 8:31:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:31:48 -0500, Mark wrote:

> On 17 Mar 2005 13:46:32 -0800, in2sheep@yahoo.com wrote:
>>I'm not so sure that's true. You may not be licensed to use certain
>>pieces of the software on the box. If you continue to use TiVo's code
>>without paying the subscription, that may be illegal. The hardware is
>>yours but you don't buy all rights to the software with your purchase.
>
> Nope. I bought the box. Never signed any agreement. I can do with it as I
> please so long as I'm not accessing Tivo's (or anyone elses) pay databases.
> It really is that simple.

Right. As in2sheep pointed out, you bought the box. Have fun with the box
however you want.

However, your use of the software that happened to come preloaded on the
box is subject to the terms of TiVo's licensing agreement. One part of
that agreement states that you only have license to the software as long
as you have a subscription.

If you want to try to pretend to know what you're talking about, it would
help if you read the terms of the agreements that you are bound by first.

Yes, you can be bound to an agreement without signing it. Look up the
concept of a "shrink-wrap license" sometime. The legal statement, from my
understanding, is that you aren't forced to be bound by the agreement,
unless you actually want to use the product. You are free to return the
product for your full purchase price if you choose not to be bound by the
agreement. If you choose not to return the product, you agree to be bound
by the agreement.

A similar argument might be saying that, since you bought a shiny new Dell
computer, you claim that you are entitled to do whatever you want with the
Microsoft operating system that came preloaded on it. However, that's not
the case. You are specifically disallowed from, among other things,
redistributing the software on the box.

--
Lenroc
Anonymous
March 17, 2005 10:46:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

> However, your use of the software that happened to come preloaded on the
> box is subject to the terms of TiVo's licensing agreement. One part of
> that agreement states that you only have license to the software as long
> as you have a subscription.

Not to mention that I'm sure that you agree *again* to the acceptable
use policy when you activate your service.

Randy S.
Anonymous
March 18, 2005 1:11:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Tony Clark wrote:
> Tivo apparently uses at least some proprietary code. What that is, I
have no
> idea. They also, from this statement under the terms and agreements
page,
> use some Open Source code as well:

You do know TiVo is built on Linux, right? And the Linux kernel (along
with the majority of its tools are all GPL).

See http://www.tivo.com/linux/linux.asp for what's GPL. Everything
else not listed is TiVo proprietary code.

> This statement would also seem to indicate that modifications to the
Open
> Source portions of Tivo as acceptable based on that last sentence.

Um, that's how the GPL works. You can't prevent people from modifying
it, that would be against the license agreement that comes with it.

> I agree completely that you would need to eliminate the Tivo
proprietary
> portions of code and hence the reason I asked about a hack to do
that. In my
> original post I may not have been clear but I tried to indicate that
I
> didn't need the functionality of the Tivo service, only the ability
to set a
> time and channel to record (manually like a VCR).
>
> So in my unofficial opinion, I see no theft of service

Ok, so look into MythTV running on a separate PC - you won't be able to
hack your TiVo to do what you want since you won't be able to get the
hardware to work for you without using TiVo's IP.
Anonymous
March 18, 2005 8:43:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

<in2sheep@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1111108405.306858.196420@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> Randy S. wrote:
>> > However, your use of the software that happened to come preloaded
> on the
>> > box is subject to the terms of TiVo's licensing agreement. One part
> of
>> > that agreement states that you only have license to the software as
> long
>> > as you have a subscription.
>>
>> Not to mention that I'm sure that you agree *again* to the acceptable
>
>> use policy when you activate your service.
>
> http://www.tivo.com/5.11.2.asp
>
> "...TiVo retains title to and ownership of all the software for the
> TiVo DVR and certain intellectual property rights in the TiVo DVR..."
>
> So, even though you bought and own the hardware, the software isn't
> yours to do with as you please.
>

First off, that statement refers to the ownership of the software not the
USE of the software. You also left out this statement on the site that you
provided a link to

"Open Source Software. Certain components of the software for the TiVo DVR
are subject to the GNU General Public License or other so-called open source
licenses ("Open-Source Software"). Open Source Software is not subject to
the restrictions in the last sentence of Section 15 ("Title to Software and
Intellectual Property"), and is subject to the GNU General Public License
("GPL") or other license terms, as applicable. In compliance with the terms
of the GPL, TiVo makes its modifications to Open Source Software that TiVo
uses, modifies and distributes pursuant to the GPL available to the public
in source code form at www.tivo.com/source. You are free to use, modify and
distribute Open Source Software that is subject to the GPL so long as you
comply with the terms of the GPL (available in the product manual or at
www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html)."

Therefore it is clear from this statement that some of the software on the
Tivo unit is Open Source and may be freely modified per the GPL. The
question then would be what components of the Tivo software are Open Source
versus Tivo proprietary?

TC
Anonymous
March 18, 2005 8:43:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:43:21 +0000, Tony Clark wrote:

> Therefore it is clear from this statement that some of the software on the
> Tivo unit is Open Source and may be freely modified per the GPL. The
> question then would be what components of the Tivo software are Open Source

The kernel. Check http://www.tivo.com/linux

> versus Tivo proprietary?

Everything else.

Enjoy!

--
Lenroc
Anonymous
March 18, 2005 8:55:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"Randy S." <rswittNO@SPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news:D 1bukr$vco$1@spnode25.nerdc.ufl.edu...
SNIP

>>
>>
>> Maybe we are talking semantics again, but I don't get the "theft of
>> service" argument. As I understand it, the Tivo software is built upon a
>> base of Linux code, to what extent I am not certain. If someone developed
>> a piece of code that would select a channel at a pre-determined time and
>> day and set the Tivo to record for some time period how would that be
>> theft of service? Not trying to argue the point, I just don't see how
>> it's theft. (Note that my example assumes some use of the Tivo software
>> that actually controls the video capture and recording mechanisms so it's
>> a bit different than your suggestion below.)
>
> Doesn't your agreement w/ point 1 imply acceptance of point 2? But I
> would also assert that just because Tivo uses Linux as the platform for
> their product, it *doesn't* mean that they don't use proprietary software
> on top of it. You can't "modify" GPL'd code and restrict it, but you can
> certainly run closed code on top of it. Also you'd need to cut out all
> the bits that receive information externally from Tivo or their partners,
> including guide data, service updates, time syncing, etc., since that is
> clearly a "service" that you are no longer paying for.
>
SNIP

Tivo apparently uses at least some proprietary code. What that is, I have no
idea. They also, from this statement under the terms and agreements page,
use some Open Source code as well:

"Open Source Software. Certain components of the software for the TiVo DVR
are subject to the GNU General Public License or other so-called open source
licenses ("Open-Source Software"). Open Source Software is not subject to
the restrictions in the last sentence of Section 15 ("Title to Software and
Intellectual Property"), and is subject to the GNU General Public License
("GPL") or other license terms, as applicable. In compliance with the terms
of the GPL, TiVo makes its modifications to Open Source Software that TiVo
uses, modifies and distributes pursuant to the GPL available to the public
in source code form at www.tivo.com/source. You are free to use, modify and
distribute Open Source Software that is subject to the GPL so long as you
comply with the terms of the GPL (available in the product manual or at
www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html)."

This statement would also seem to indicate that modifications to the Open
Source portions of Tivo as acceptable based on that last sentence.

I agree completely that you would need to eliminate the Tivo proprietary
portions of code and hence the reason I asked about a hack to do that. In my
original post I may not have been clear but I tried to indicate that I
didn't need the functionality of the Tivo service, only the ability to set a
time and channel to record (manually like a VCR).

So in my unofficial opinion, I see no theft of service

TC
Anonymous
March 18, 2005 8:55:15 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:55:14 +0000, Tony Clark wrote:

> I agree completely that you would need to eliminate the Tivo proprietary
> portions of code

TiVo proprietary code is everything you need to make a TiVo record &
playback TV. Without the TiVo proprietary code, you _might_ be able to get
the unit to boot, but I doubt it. Certainly you'd have no control of the
encoder, the decoder, or anything else you needed to make a functioning
DVR.

> So in my unofficial opinion, I see no theft of service

Not theft of service, but if you use the TiVo software without a
subscription, you are using it illegally (because the software is only
licensed to subscribers).

--
Lenroc
Anonymous
March 18, 2005 11:24:03 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Lenroc wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:43:21 +0000, Tony Clark wrote:
>
>
>>Therefore it is clear from this statement that some of the software on the
>>Tivo unit is Open Source and may be freely modified per the GPL. The
>>question then would be what components of the Tivo software are Open Source
>
>
> The kernel. Check http://www.tivo.com/linux
>
>
>>versus Tivo proprietary?
>
>
> Everything else.
>
> Enjoy!
>

I can't decide whether Tony is really interested in the answer or is
just trying to rationalize and justify the answer he *wants*. Why not
trying to start out from Tivo's point of view? Would Tivo sell a
product where they make most of their income from subscription charges
without at least attempting to legally limit use without a subscription?

That doesn't mean the legal language will be perfect or not have holes,
but you should be able to assume that there's language in there at least
attempting to do it. And their lawyers are better trained than you ;-).

Randy S.
Anonymous
March 18, 2005 2:45:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005, Randy S. wrote:

>> I am not sure I understand you last statement. Why would I need Tivo's IP?
>
> Because the patent office has idiotically decided to allow patents on

I think Tony was confused about your use of "IP". Tony's post looks like
he was talking about an IP address. You were talking about Intellectual
Property.
Anonymous
March 18, 2005 4:37:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Adam Maloney wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Mar 2005, Randy S. wrote:
>
>>> I am not sure I understand you last statement. Why would I need
>>> Tivo's IP?
>>
>>
>> Because the patent office has idiotically decided to allow patents on
>
>
> I think Tony was confused about your use of "IP". Tony's post looks
> like he was talking about an IP address. You were talking about
> Intellectual Property.

Well that wasn't originally my post, but in2sheep was ;-).

Randy S.
Anonymous
March 18, 2005 7:30:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

<in2sheep@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1111126299.800926.91960@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Tony Clark wrote:
>> Tivo apparently uses at least some proprietary code. What that is, I
> have no
>> idea. They also, from this statement under the terms and agreements
> page,
>> use some Open Source code as well:
>
> You do know TiVo is built on Linux, right? And the Linux kernel (along
> with the majority of its tools are all GPL).
>
> See http://www.tivo.com/linux/linux.asp for what's GPL. Everything
> else not listed is TiVo proprietary code.
>

It would appear that Tivo distributes quite a bit of their code under the
Open Source GPL based on the link you provided. I haven't looked at the
modules specifically but there seem to be a lot of them. If it's Open Source
then you can modify it all you want, according to the OS GPL and Tivo's T&C
(as you rightfully pointed out).

SNIP

>
> Ok, so look into MythTV running on a separate PC - you won't be able to
> hack your TiVo to do what you want since you won't be able to get the
> hardware to work for you without using TiVo's IP.
>

I am not sure I understand you last statement. Why would I need Tivo's IP?
If I modify the code to use a publicly available programming list, or if I
completely ignore any such list and simply put a day/time/channel/duration
and start the recorder why would I be using Tivo's IP? Perhaps "hack" is the
wrong term since that implies some modification of existing code. Maybe I
should have said, is there a separately available program that can be loaded
on a Tivo that will allow for simplistic recording of video input (TV,
Cable, Video Recorder...etc..)?

Cheers
TC
!