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Review: Audio Power Amplifier Handbook, Self

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November 11, 2004 7:54:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Bipolar Transistor Power Amplifier Bible

I can't imagine a better book about push-pull, audio bipolar power
amplifiers. Self covers virtually every possible configuration with
circuits, notes, simulations and measurements. This book includes an
excellent chapter on power, heat and reliability based on many years
of design , manufacturing and field service. He is truly an expert in
all aspects of this amplifier topology.
He doesn't hide his disdain for MOSFETS, single-ended amplifiers and
other "subjectivist" high-end concerns. Contrary to the findings of
many others in this field, Self finds Total Harmonic Distortion the
only measurement of amplifier quality that matters. He isn't
convincing to this reviewer.

A "must have" book for anyone designing audio power amplifiers.
Anonymous
November 12, 2004 12:15:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Paul" <oatteaseffen@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:462bba80.0411111654.688f1858@posting.google.com
> Bipolar Transistor Power Amplifier Bible

> Contrary to the findings of
> many others in this field, Self finds Total Harmonic Distortion the
> only measurement of amplifier quality that matters. He isn't
> convincing to this reviewer.

Agreed. Either power output or source impedance are better predictors of the
sound quality of modern power amps.
Anonymous
November 12, 2004 1:40:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Don Pearce" <donaldun@spamfreepearce.uk.com> wrote in message
news:4197d8b7.24711703@212.159.2.87

> And where exactly do you find any sources of audio that haven't been
> through any transistors? Still playing your 78s perhaps?

I suspect that most recordings made through the mid-60s were pretty much
free of contact with solid state audio devices. That includes a lot of LPs
that are probably still kicking around personal collections and thrift
stores.
Related resources
Anonymous
November 12, 2004 6:46:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:40:14 -0500, "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com>
wrote:

>"Don Pearce" <donaldun@spamfreepearce.uk.com> wrote in message
>news:4197d8b7.24711703@212.159.2.87
>
>> And where exactly do you find any sources of audio that haven't been
>> through any transistors? Still playing your 78s perhaps?
>
>I suspect that most recordings made through the mid-60s were pretty much
>free of contact with solid state audio devices. That includes a lot of LPs
>that are probably still kicking around personal collections and thrift
>stores.
>
Wires, resistors, switches, capacitors, inductors - all solid state.
It is possible, of course to make electron or ion state equivalents
for most of them, but I'm not sure that even a valvophile would want
to try. I bet the sound would be heaps better if they did, though...

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 2:01:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Paul wrote:

> Bipolar Transistor Power Amplifier Bible

< snip >

> He doesn't hide his disdain for MOSFETS,...... and
> other "subjectivist" high-end concerns. Contrary to the findings of
> many others in this field, Self finds Total Harmonic Distortion the
> only measurement of amplifier quality that matters. He isn't
> convincing to this reviewer.

Doug Self appears to be a self ( lol ) opiniated self aggrandised bigot.

The best THD figures I've ever achieved from an amplifier was 0.0008% (
measured - AP residual was 0.0006% ) @ 350W into 8 ohms @ 1 kHz.

-102dB SINAD if you prefer.

It was a MOSFET amplifier ! Bipolars don't have much of a chance of even
coming close. So - let THD be the yardstick ! I don't care if it's
subjective that MOSFETs provide excellent performance - not least a
relative absence of odd-order distortion products.

Oh, that amp sounded *stunning* btw. As transparent as I've ever heard.
Has to do comparative listening tests at night to minimise extraneous
sound.


Graham
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 4:38:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

oatteaseffen@hotmail.com (Paul) wrote in message news:<462bba80.0411111654.688f1858@posting.google.com>...
> Bipolar Transistor Power Amplifier Bible
>
> I can't imagine a better book about push-pull, audio bipolar power
> amplifiers. Self covers virtually every possible configuration with
> circuits, notes, simulations and measurements. This book includes an
> excellent chapter on power, heat and reliability based on many years
> of design , manufacturing and field service. He is truly an expert in
> all aspects of this amplifier topology.
> He doesn't hide his disdain for MOSFETS, single-ended amplifiers and
> other "subjectivist" high-end concerns. Contrary to the findings of
> many others in this field, Self finds Total Harmonic Distortion the
> only measurement of amplifier quality that matters. He isn't
> convincing to this reviewer.
>
> A "must have" book for anyone designing audio power amplifiers.

Does this bible include IC power amps? Below 100 Watts, is there any
reason to do it with discrete transistors these days? The MOSFET
designs I have looked at all required relatively high power supply
voltages, i.e. they were inefficient. A pair of LM3886's in bridge
mode seems like the way to go.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 8:46:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> said:

>Oh, that amp sounded *stunning* btw. As transparent as I've ever heard.
>Has to do comparative listening tests at night to minimise extraneous
>sound.

"Prove it via a DBT/ABX test".
(Standard Arny Krueger non-answer when someone he disagrees with
states his subjective opinion on amplifier sound).

I already knew for years that MOSFETs, and especially the Hitachi
types, are excellent for use in audio amplifiers.

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 9:38:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:46:07 +0100, Sander deWaal <nospam@wanadoo.nl>
wrote:

>Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> said:
>
>>Oh, that amp sounded *stunning* btw. As transparent as I've ever heard.
>>Has to do comparative listening tests at night to minimise extraneous
>>sound.
>
>"Prove it via a DBT/ABX test".
>(Standard Arny Krueger non-answer when someone he disagrees with
>states his subjective opinion on amplifier sound).

Actually, just a standard reality check for *anyone* making
extraordinary claims.

>I already knew for years that MOSFETs, and especially the Hitachi
>types, are excellent for use in audio amplifiers.

Sure, as are bipolar transistors, and even valves if you're good
enough and have the budget for top class transformers.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 9:38:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Pukey said:

> >"Prove it via a DBT/ABX test".
> >(Standard Arny Krueger non-answer when someone he disagrees with
> >states his subjective opinion on amplifier sound).
>
> Actually, just a standard reality check for *anyone* making
> extraordinary claims.

Propaganda about 'borg propaganda, Pukey?

Such a challenge is a guided snot-missile that has nothing to do with
reality. You would know that if you weren't still trying to spoon out your
own liver and eat it for dinner.
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 10:56:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Stewart Pinkerton <patent3@dircon.co.uk> said:

>>"Prove it via a DBT/ABX test".
>>(Standard Arny Krueger non-answer when someone he disagrees with
>>states his subjective opinion on amplifier sound).

>Actually, just a standard reality check for *anyone* making
>extraordinary claims.

Graham's claim wasn't that extraordinary IMO.

>>I already knew for years that MOSFETs, and especially the Hitachi
>>types, are excellent for use in audio amplifiers.

>Sure, as are bipolar transistors, and even valves if you're good
>enough and have the budget for top class transformers.

You're so cute when you're sober :-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 10:56:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Sander deWaal wrote:

> Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> said:
>
> >Oh, that amp sounded *stunning* btw. As transparent as I've ever heard.
> >Has to do comparative listening tests at night to minimise extraneous
> >sound.
>
> "Prove it via a DBT/ABX test".
> (Standard Arny Krueger non-answer when someone he disagrees with
> states his subjective opinion on amplifier sound).
>
> I already knew for years that MOSFETs, and especially the Hitachi
> types, are excellent for use in audio amplifiers.

They were indeed Hitachi devices. Quite a few of them in fact.


Graham
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 12:14:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 13:54:03 -0500, George M. Middius
<Spam-B-Gone@resistance.org> wrote:

>
>
>Pukey said:
>
>> >"Prove it via a DBT/ABX test".
>> >(Standard Arny Krueger non-answer when someone he disagrees with
>> >states his subjective opinion on amplifier sound).
>>
>> Actually, just a standard reality check for *anyone* making
>> extraordinary claims.
>
>Propaganda about 'borg propaganda, Pukey?
>
>Such a challenge is a guided snot-missile that has nothing to do with
>reality. You would know that if you weren't still trying to spoon out your
>own liver and eat it for dinner.

Gorge, you wouldn't recognise reality if you fell over it on the
street. But we knew that already....................
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 12:14:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Pukey, your snot generator seems to have petered out. I think you need to
recharge it.

> >> >"Prove it via a DBT/ABX test".
> >> >(Standard Arny Krueger non-answer when someone he disagrees with
> >> >states his subjective opinion on amplifier sound).
> >>
> >> Actually, just a standard reality check for *anyone* making
> >> extraordinary claims.
> >
> >Propaganda about 'borg propaganda, Pukey?
> >
> >Such a challenge is a guided snot-missile that has nothing to do with
> >reality. You would know that if you weren't still trying to spoon out your
> >own liver and eat it for dinner.
>
> Gorge, you wouldn't recognise reality if you fell over it on the
> street. But we knew that already....................

Do you think the snottishness exercises have something to do with
"reality"? You're just as feeble a wannabe as Krooger, you know. You're not
an engineer, just a religious convert wearing a big pair of blinders. When
you finally quit boozing, I'm sure you'll be telling us of the "reality"
that God told you to sober up.
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 12:16:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:56:05 +0100, Sander deWaal <nospam@wanadoo.nl>
wrote:

>Stewart Pinkerton <patent3@dircon.co.uk> said:
>
>>>"Prove it via a DBT/ABX test".
>>>(Standard Arny Krueger non-answer when someone he disagrees with
>>>states his subjective opinion on amplifier sound).
>
>>Actually, just a standard reality check for *anyone* making
>>extraordinary claims.
>
>Graham's claim wasn't that extraordinary IMO.

Yes, but since your opinion is as valuable as a Turkish Lira, we won't
worry too much about it...............

>>>I already knew for years that MOSFETs, and especially the Hitachi
>>>types, are excellent for use in audio amplifiers.
>
>>Sure, as are bipolar transistors, and even valves if you're good
>>enough and have the budget for top class transformers.
>
>You're so cute when you're sober :-)

I'm always cute, so the girls tell me :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 1:51:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Stewart Drinkerton <booze3@dircon.co.uk> said:

>>>Actually, just a standard reality check for *anyone* making
>>>extraordinary claims.

>>Graham's claim wasn't that extraordinary IMO.

>Yes, but since your opinion is as valuable as a Turkish Lira, we won't
>worry too much about it...............

Just wait a few years, they'll use Euros by then :-)

>>You're so cute when you're sober :-)

>I'm always cute, so the girls tell me :-)

Next time you ask, leave the Aston Martin keys in the drawer. :-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 9:50:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On 14 Nov 2004 13:38:07 -0800, Detector195@yahoo.com (Detector195)
wrote:

>oatteaseffen@hotmail.com (Paul) wrote in message news:<462bba80.0411111654.688f1858@posting.google.com>...
>> Bipolar Transistor Power Amplifier Bible
>>
>> I can't imagine a better book about push-pull, audio bipolar power
>> amplifiers. Self covers virtually every possible configuration with
>> circuits, notes, simulations and measurements. This book includes an
>> excellent chapter on power, heat and reliability based on many years
>> of design , manufacturing and field service. He is truly an expert in
>> all aspects of this amplifier topology.
>> He doesn't hide his disdain for MOSFETS, single-ended amplifiers and
>> other "subjectivist" high-end concerns. Contrary to the findings of
>> many others in this field, Self finds Total Harmonic Distortion the
>> only measurement of amplifier quality that matters. He isn't
>> convincing to this reviewer.
>>
>> A "must have" book for anyone designing audio power amplifiers.
>
>Does this bible include IC power amps? Below 100 Watts, is there any
>reason to do it with discrete transistors these days? The MOSFET
>designs I have looked at all required relatively high power supply
>voltages, i.e. they were inefficient. A pair of LM3886's in bridge
>mode seems like the way to go.

Not if you want to drive low-impedance speakers, it's not........

Even in standard mode, it's only a 40-watt amp with relatively poor
current capability.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 10:46:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Detector195" <Detector195@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6213f73a.0411141338.238f136a@posting.google.com


> Does this bible include IC power amps?

I doubt it. There's not a lot of technology in hooking up a modern chip amp.
Self's writings are typically about refined technology.

>Below 100 Watts, is there any
> reason to do it with discrete transistors these days?

As Pinkie points out, the chip amps are not necessarily the best solution
for low impedance loads. If you are impressed by THD numbers with lots of
leading zeroes, chip amps rate only mediocre.

If you look at what people are actually selling for after-market car audio,
other than very low-powered stuff, you still see a lot of discrete
transistor designs at power levels that look on paper like they are
well-covered by these chips.

OTOH, chip amps dominate OEM car audio which is genearlly limited to amps
running off rail voltages limited by car batteries and charging systems.

If you lift the covers on mid-fi receivers, you may see a lot of power
chips, but in many cases they turn out to be only the output devices for the
power amp sections.

> The MOSFET
> designs I have looked at all required relatively high power supply
> voltages, i.e. they were inefficient. A pair of LM3886's in bridge
> mode seems like the way to go.

They would seem to only go so far. They may turn out to be more costly than
discrete amps built in places where labor is still cheap.
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 7:52:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Stewart Pinkerton" emitted :

>>"Prove it via a DBT/ABX test".
>>(Standard Arny Krueger non-answer when someone he disagrees with
>>states his subjective opinion on amplifier sound).
>
>Actually, just a standard reality check for *anyone* making
>extraordinary claims.

That argument has been debunked a gazillion times. Even your mentor
Jim Johnston never subscribed to the idea that consumers are compelled
to gouge out their visual organs.


S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t
-----------------------------------
It's Grim up north..
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 7:52:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Paul Dormer" <signal@lineone.not> wrote in message
news:kjnhp0h8n59e9lh1aubg9g35ojlqp5npv2@4ax.com

> "Stewart Pinkerton" emitted :

>>"Sander deWaal" <nospam@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message
>>news:mo2fp0h4oncb9q5nst028veh88kf0jdmki@4ax.com

>>> "Prove it via a DBT/ABX test".
>>> (Standard Arny Krueger non-answer when someone he disagrees with
>>> states his subjective opinion on amplifier sound).

Actually, the purported quote has only been uttered by one Sander DeWaal,
according to google. I've never said it myself. S

>> Actually, just a standard reality check for *anyone* making
>> extraordinary claims.

Exactly, and if the comparison involved one the therminonic audible
distortion and noise generators that DeWall wants to stuff down all of our
throats as having superior reproduction of music, there would be IMO no need
for a DBT. Take music, add audible noise, add audible distortion, and why
wouldn't there be an audible difference?

> That argument has been debunked a gazillion times.

Since the purported argument is a fabrication of the tortured mind of Sander
deWall, I've got no problems with that sort of characterization.

> Even your mentor
> Jim Johnston never subscribed to the idea that consumers are compelled
> to gouge out their visual organs.

Nor have I. But deWall's mentor George Middius has suggested that be the
case.
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 7:57:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Stewart Pinkerton" emitted :

>I'm always cute, so the girls tell me :-)

That's highly implausible. Since when was Rab C Nesbitt cute?


S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t
-----------------------------------
It's Grim up north..
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 9:40:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:ZomdnatJUpEbMQvcRVn-pg@comcast.com...
> "TonyP" <TonyP@optus.net.com.au> wrote in message
> > I have never seen a valve hearing aid, although I think some were
> > made in the forties or fifties. I bet he's glad he doesn't have to
> > carry one of those!
>
> There definately were tubed hearing aids.
> http://www.cs.uu.nl/~gerard/RadioCorner/Sets/BlaOmni.ht...
> Note the use of subminiature wire-base tubes.
> http://www.lhh.org/archives/hamuseum.htm
> http://www.fishbeinhearingaids.com/hearing_aid_history....
> http://www.roger-russell.com/sonopg/sonoha.htm
> http://dept.kent.edu/hearingaidmuseum/development.html
> http://www.hearingcenteronline.com/museum.shtml
> http://www.ccent.com/PHS/history.html
>
http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/bae/research/blanchard/www/465/...
s/2000/cochlear_00/lizotte/electricaids.html
> http://www.uwm.edu/~bobtreat/messages/30.shtml


Impressive search you have done there Arny, there are an awful lot of people
who would say valves are not better in that application though :-)

TonyP.
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 9:40:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"TonyP" <TonyP@optus.net.com.au> wrote in message
news:41985d85$0$1959$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
> news:ZomdnatJUpEbMQvcRVn-pg@comcast.com...
>> "TonyP" <TonyP@optus.net.com.au> wrote in message
>>> I have never seen a valve hearing aid, although I think some were
>>> made in the forties or fifties. I bet he's glad he doesn't have to
>>> carry one of those!
>>
>> There definately were tubed hearing aids.
>> http://www.cs.uu.nl/~gerard/RadioCorner/Sets/BlaOmni.ht...
>> Note the use of subminiature wire-base tubes.
>> http://www.lhh.org/archives/hamuseum.htm
>> http://www.fishbeinhearingaids.com/hearing_aid_history....
>> http://www.roger-russell.com/sonopg/sonoha.htm
>> http://dept.kent.edu/hearingaidmuseum/development.html
>> http://www.hearingcenteronline.com/museum.shtml
>> http://www.ccent.com/PHS/history.html

> http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/bae/research/blanchard/www/465/...
> s/2000/cochlear_00/lizotte/electricaids.html
>> http://www.uwm.edu/~bobtreat/messages/30.shtml

> Impressive search you have done there Arny, there are an awful lot of
> people who would say valves are not better in that application though
> :-)

No doubt. Those were definately the dark ages of assistance for the
hearing-impaired. Other than guitar amps and the like, its hard to imagine a
valid reason to struggle with the well-known limitations of tubes in modern
audio systems.
Anonymous
November 16, 2004 1:21:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> said:

>"Paul Dormer" <signal@lineone.not> wrote in message
>news:kjnhp0h8n59e9lh1aubg9g35ojlqp5npv2@4ax.com
>
>> "Stewart Pinkerton" emitted :
>
>>>"Sander deWaal" <nospam@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message
>>>news:mo2fp0h4oncb9q5nst028veh88kf0jdmki@4ax.com
>
>>>> "Prove it via a DBT/ABX test".
>>>> (Standard Arny Krueger non-answer when someone he disagrees with
>>>> states his subjective opinion on amplifier sound).
>
>Actually, the purported quote has only been uttered by one Sander DeWaal,
>according to google. I've never said it myself. S
>
>>> Actually, just a standard reality check for *anyone* making
>>> extraordinary claims.
>
>Exactly, and if the comparison involved one the therminonic audible
>distortion and noise generators that DeWall wants to stuff down all of our
>throats as having superior reproduction of music, there would be IMO no need
>for a DBT. Take music, add audible noise, add audible distortion, and why
>wouldn't there be an audible difference?
>
>> That argument has been debunked a gazillion times.
>
>Since the purported argument is a fabrication of the tortured mind of Sander
>deWall, I've got no problems with that sort of characterization.
>
>> Even your mentor
>> Jim Johnston never subscribed to the idea that consumers are compelled
>> to gouge out their visual organs.
>
>Nor have I. But deWall's mentor George Middius has suggested that be the
>case.

Who's this DeWall guy you're talking about?

;-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "
Anonymous
November 16, 2004 1:22:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Sander deWaal said:

> >But deWall's mentor George Middius has suggested that be the
> >case.

> Who's this DeWall guy you're talking about?

And where's my mentoring fee?

> ;-)

Oh, ick. Really.
Anonymous
November 16, 2004 1:22:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Sander deWaal" emitted :

>>Nor have I. But deWall's ..
>
>Who's this DeWall guy you're talking about?

He's imagining nailing you to De Wall.. ;-(


S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t
-----------------------------------
It's Grim up north..
Anonymous
November 16, 2004 3:18:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Detector195 wrote:

> oatteaseffen@hotmail.com (Paul) wrote in message news:<462bba80.0411111654.688f1858@posting.google.com>...
> > Bipolar Transistor Power Amplifier Bible
> >
> > I can't imagine a better book about push-pull, audio bipolar power
> > amplifiers. Self covers virtually every possible configuration with
> > circuits, notes, simulations and measurements. This book includes an
> > excellent chapter on power, heat and reliability based on many years
> > of design , manufacturing and field service. He is truly an expert in
> > all aspects of this amplifier topology.
> > He doesn't hide his disdain for MOSFETS, single-ended amplifiers and
> > other "subjectivist" high-end concerns. Contrary to the findings of
> > many others in this field, Self finds Total Harmonic Distortion the
> > only measurement of amplifier quality that matters. He isn't
> > convincing to this reviewer.
> >
> > A "must have" book for anyone designing audio power amplifiers.
>
> Does this bible include IC power amps? Below 100 Watts, is there any
> reason to do it with discrete transistors these days? The MOSFET
> designs I have looked at all required relatively high power supply
> voltages, i.e. they were inefficient. A pair of LM3886's in bridge
> mode seems like the way to go.

The Mosfet designs simply need a decent drive voltage for their enhancement mode output devices. This can be
done by running the previous voltage gain stage off a slightly higher voltage than the mail rails at mere
milliamps. It has other benefits too - such as avoiding saturating the drivers and results in lower Miller
capacitance effects in the drivers.


Graham
Anonymous
November 16, 2004 9:49:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:57:41 +0000, Paul Dormer <signal@lineone.not>
wrote:

>"Stewart Pinkerton" emitted :
>
>>I'm always cute, so the girls tell me :-)
>
>That's highly implausible. Since when was Rab C Nesbitt cute?

Never, but I'm much more Sean Connery............. :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
Anonymous
November 16, 2004 9:52:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:18:31 +0000, Pooh Bear
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>Detector195 wrote:
>
>> oatteaseffen@hotmail.com (Paul) wrote in message news:<462bba80.0411111654.688f1858@posting.google.com>...
>> > Bipolar Transistor Power Amplifier Bible
>> >
>> > I can't imagine a better book about push-pull, audio bipolar power
>> > amplifiers. Self covers virtually every possible configuration with
>> > circuits, notes, simulations and measurements. This book includes an
>> > excellent chapter on power, heat and reliability based on many years
>> > of design , manufacturing and field service. He is truly an expert in
>> > all aspects of this amplifier topology.
>> > He doesn't hide his disdain for MOSFETS, single-ended amplifiers and
>> > other "subjectivist" high-end concerns. Contrary to the findings of
>> > many others in this field, Self finds Total Harmonic Distortion the
>> > only measurement of amplifier quality that matters. He isn't
>> > convincing to this reviewer.
>> >
>> > A "must have" book for anyone designing audio power amplifiers.
>>
>> Does this bible include IC power amps? Below 100 Watts, is there any
>> reason to do it with discrete transistors these days? The MOSFET
>> designs I have looked at all required relatively high power supply
>> voltages, i.e. they were inefficient. A pair of LM3886's in bridge
>> mode seems like the way to go.
>
>The Mosfet designs simply need a decent drive voltage for their enhancement mode output devices. This can be
>done by running the previous voltage gain stage off a slightly higher voltage than the mail rails at mere
>milliamps. It has other benefits too - such as avoiding saturating the drivers and results in lower Miller
>capacitance effects in the drivers.

Indeed so, and I recall designing just such an amplifier in the late
'70s. Worked pretty well, and had less than 0.1% IMD up to 90kHz. The
multiple rails would probably prove too expensive for a commercial
unit, however.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
Anonymous
November 16, 2004 9:20:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Stewart Pinkerton <patent3@dircon.co.uk> said:

>>The Mosfet designs simply need a decent drive voltage for their enhancement mode output devices. This can be
>>done by running the previous voltage gain stage off a slightly higher voltage than the mail rails at mere
>>milliamps. It has other benefits too - such as avoiding saturating the drivers and results in lower Miller
>>capacitance effects in the drivers.

>Indeed so, and I recall designing just such an amplifier in the late
>'70s. Worked pretty well, and had less than 0.1% IMD up to 90kHz. The
>multiple rails would probably prove too expensive for a commercial
>unit, however.

Why not? Most NADs using soft clipping have multiple supply rails.
And you can't accuse NAD for being expensive.......

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "
Anonymous
November 16, 2004 11:10:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Stewart Pinkerton" emitted :

>>>I'm always cute, so the girls tell me :-)
>>
>>That's highly implausible. Since when was Rab C Nesbitt cute?
>
>Never, but I'm much more Sean Connery............. :-)

Me too!

At least.. I'm hankering after a DB9.. :-)


S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t
-----------------------------------
It's Grim up north..
Anonymous
November 16, 2004 11:33:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:18:31 +0000, Pooh Bear
> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Detector195 wrote:
> >
> >> oatteaseffen@hotmail.com (Paul) wrote in message news:<462bba80.0411111654.688f1858@posting.google.com>...
> >> > Bipolar Transistor Power Amplifier Bible
> >> >
> >> > I can't imagine a better book about push-pull, audio bipolar power
> >> > amplifiers. Self covers virtually every possible configuration with
> >> > circuits, notes, simulations and measurements. This book includes an
> >> > excellent chapter on power, heat and reliability based on many years
> >> > of design , manufacturing and field service. He is truly an expert in
> >> > all aspects of this amplifier topology.
> >> > He doesn't hide his disdain for MOSFETS, single-ended amplifiers and
> >> > other "subjectivist" high-end concerns. Contrary to the findings of
> >> > many others in this field, Self finds Total Harmonic Distortion the
> >> > only measurement of amplifier quality that matters. He isn't
> >> > convincing to this reviewer.
> >> >
> >> > A "must have" book for anyone designing audio power amplifiers.
> >>
> >> Does this bible include IC power amps? Below 100 Watts, is there any
> >> reason to do it with discrete transistors these days? The MOSFET
> >> designs I have looked at all required relatively high power supply
> >> voltages, i.e. they were inefficient. A pair of LM3886's in bridge
> >> mode seems like the way to go.
> >
> >The Mosfet designs simply need a decent drive voltage for their enhancement mode output devices. This can be
> >done by running the previous voltage gain stage off a slightly higher voltage than the mail rails at mere
> >milliamps. It has other benefits too - such as avoiding saturating the drivers and results in lower Miller
> >capacitance effects in the drivers.
>
> Indeed so, and I recall designing just such an amplifier in the late
> '70s. Worked pretty well, and had less than 0.1% IMD up to 90kHz. The
> multiple rails would probably prove too expensive for a commercial
> unit, however.

My designs using this method have gone into production in the pro-audio sector. It just involves a few more small
gauge turns on the power TX, a small bridge and some small caps.

Yes, it costs extra but it's the only sensible way to drive mosfets. Look at it like this - you get more watts
out for the same main supply rail voltage way more economically than increasing the main rails. Total cost / watt
is probably actually lower. Less dissipation in the output devices too.

I've used the technique for bipolar designs as well.


Graham
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 1:52:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:10:45 +0000, Paul Dormer <signal@lineone.not>
wrote:

>"Stewart Pinkerton" emitted :
>
>>>>I'm always cute, so the girls tell me :-)
>>>
>>>That's highly implausible. Since when was Rab C Nesbitt cute?
>>
>>Never, but I'm much more Sean Connery............. :-)
>
>Me too!
>
>At least.. I'm hankering after a DB9.. :-)

OK, I take back every bad thing I may ever have said about you. Anyone
who loves the DB9 can't be all bad! :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 1:52:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Stewart Pinkerton" <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c31lp0l0uilg2gd2i7fmivt3q0la40jbko@4ax.com
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:10:45 +0000, Paul Dormer <signal@lineone.not>
> wrote:
>
>> "Stewart Pinkerton" emitted :
>>
>>>>> I'm always cute, so the girls tell me :-)
>>>>
>>>> That's highly implausible. Since when was Rab C Nesbitt cute?
>>>
>>> Never, but I'm much more Sean Connery............. :-)
>>
>> Me too!
>>
>> At least.. I'm hankering after a DB9.. :-)
>
> OK, I take back every bad thing I may ever have said about you. Anyone
> who loves the DB9 can't be all bad! :-)

About as close to owning a DB9 that Dormer will ever get is a serial port.
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 1:54:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:33:26 +0000, Pooh Bear
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:18:31 +0000, Pooh Bear
>> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Detector195 wrote:
>> >
>> >> oatteaseffen@hotmail.com (Paul) wrote in message news:<462bba80.0411111654.688f1858@posting.google.com>...
>> >> > Bipolar Transistor Power Amplifier Bible
>> >> >
>> >> > I can't imagine a better book about push-pull, audio bipolar power
>> >> > amplifiers. Self covers virtually every possible configuration with
>> >> > circuits, notes, simulations and measurements. This book includes an
>> >> > excellent chapter on power, heat and reliability based on many years
>> >> > of design , manufacturing and field service. He is truly an expert in
>> >> > all aspects of this amplifier topology.
>> >> > He doesn't hide his disdain for MOSFETS, single-ended amplifiers and
>> >> > other "subjectivist" high-end concerns. Contrary to the findings of
>> >> > many others in this field, Self finds Total Harmonic Distortion the
>> >> > only measurement of amplifier quality that matters. He isn't
>> >> > convincing to this reviewer.
>> >> >
>> >> > A "must have" book for anyone designing audio power amplifiers.
>> >>
>> >> Does this bible include IC power amps? Below 100 Watts, is there any
>> >> reason to do it with discrete transistors these days? The MOSFET
>> >> designs I have looked at all required relatively high power supply
>> >> voltages, i.e. they were inefficient. A pair of LM3886's in bridge
>> >> mode seems like the way to go.
>> >
>> >The Mosfet designs simply need a decent drive voltage for their enhancement mode output devices. This can be
>> >done by running the previous voltage gain stage off a slightly higher voltage than the mail rails at mere
>> >milliamps. It has other benefits too - such as avoiding saturating the drivers and results in lower Miller
>> >capacitance effects in the drivers.
>>
>> Indeed so, and I recall designing just such an amplifier in the late
>> '70s. Worked pretty well, and had less than 0.1% IMD up to 90kHz. The
>> multiple rails would probably prove too expensive for a commercial
>> unit, however.
>
>My designs using this method have gone into production in the pro-audio sector. It just involves a few more small
>gauge turns on the power TX, a small bridge and some small caps.

Good point, that seems an excellent cost-effective solution.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 3:02:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Detector195" <Detector195@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> Does this bible include IC power amps? Below 100 Watts, is there any
> reason to do it with discrete transistors these days? The MOSFET
> designs I have looked at all required relatively high power supply
> voltages, i.e. they were inefficient. A pair of LM3886's in bridge
> mode seems like the way to go.

Seems to be pretty standard in most of the active speakers made in teh last
ten years, for tweeters.

geoff
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 3:06:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Stewart Pinkerton" emitted :

>>>>>I'm always cute, so the girls tell me :-)
>>>>
>>>>That's highly implausible. Since when was Rab C Nesbitt cute?
>>>
>>>Never, but I'm much more Sean Connery............. :-)
>>
>>Me too!
>>
>>At least.. I'm hankering after a DB9.. :-)
>
>OK, I take back every bad thing I may ever have said about you. Anyone
>who loves the DB9 can't be all bad! :-)

Correct, Stewart..

How about that Vanquish V12? Excuse me whilst I faint.. ;-)

BTW Didn't you say you went to school with Connery? He used to live a
couple of miles from here. Pretty modest house, too. Small world
innit..


S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t
-----------------------------------
It's Grim up north..
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 8:42:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:18:00 -0500, "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com>
wrote:

>"Stewart Pinkerton" <patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:c31lp0l0uilg2gd2i7fmivt3q0la40jbko@4ax.com
>> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:10:45 +0000, Paul Dormer <signal@lineone.not>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "Stewart Pinkerton" emitted :
>>>
>>>>>> I'm always cute, so the girls tell me :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> That's highly implausible. Since when was Rab C Nesbitt cute?
>>>>
>>>> Never, but I'm much more Sean Connery............. :-)
>>>
>>> Me too!
>>>
>>> At least.. I'm hankering after a DB9.. :-)
>>
>> OK, I take back every bad thing I may ever have said about you. Anyone
>> who loves the DB9 can't be all bad! :-)
>
>About as close to owning a DB9 that Dormer will ever get is a serial port.

LOL - good lateral thinking! :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 9:03:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Stewart Pinkerton" emitted :

>>>>>>> I'm always cute, so the girls tell me :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's highly implausible. Since when was Rab C Nesbitt cute?
>>>>>
>>>>> Never, but I'm much more Sean Connery............. :-)
>>>>
>>>> Me too!
>>>>
>>>> At least.. I'm hankering after a DB9.. :-)
>>>
>>> OK, I take back every bad thing I may ever have said about you. Anyone
>>> who loves the DB9 can't be all bad! :-)
>>
>>About as close to owning a DB9 that Dormer will ever get is a serial port.
>
>LOL - good lateral thinking! :-)

I don't have friends with boats.. but I do have friends with DB9's.


S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t
-----------------------------------
It's Grim up north..
!