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AD822, good TL062 replacement?

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November 25, 2004 10:07:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.design (More info?)

Just bumped into it looking for quieter alternatives to the ubiquitous
TL062 for a battery powered bass guitar tone circuit. Ok, power
consumption is higher, but still much lower than the usual audio opamp
suspects, noise is decent, THD doesn't look bad. It's expensive but in
opamp world that means it costs $5 instead of $0.50 and I only need
one, so I think I'll manage. Any reason not to use it or any better
alternatives?

Many thanks,

Carlos
Anonymous
November 25, 2004 10:54:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.design (More info?)

Carlos wrote...
>
> Just bumped into it looking for quieter alternatives to the
> ubiquitous TL062 for a battery powered bass guitar tone circuit.
> Ok, power consumption is higher, but still much lower than the
> usual audio opamp suspects, noise is decent, THD doesn't look bad.
> It's expensive but in opamp world that means it costs $5 instead
> of $0.50 and I only need one, so I think I'll manage. Any reason
> not to use it or any better alternatives?

The AD822 is a JFET replacement for an LM358 (half of an LM324)
or LT1013 single-supply opamp, featuring rail-to-rail outputs.
Both the single-supply and rail-to-rail aspects are attractive
for some applications (especially with a JFET input), but both
involve compromises that degrade the opamp's performance. There
are _much_ better choices for high-quality audio JFET opamps.


--
Thanks,
- Win
Anonymous
November 25, 2004 3:02:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.design (More info?)

clorenzo@eutelsat.fr (Carlos) wrote in message news:<bdab6169.0411250707.2362c7b7@posting.google.com>...
> Just bumped into it looking for quieter alternatives to the ubiquitous
> TL062 for a battery powered bass guitar tone circuit. Ok, power
> consumption is higher, but still much lower than the usual audio opamp
> suspects, noise is decent, THD doesn't look bad. It's expensive but in
> opamp world that means it costs $5 instead of $0.50 and I only need
> one, so I think I'll manage. Any reason not to use it or any better
> alternatives?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Carlos

You might want to check out these chips
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa2134.pdf

gg
Related resources
Anonymous
November 25, 2004 7:41:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.design (More info?)

"Winfield Hill" <hill_a@t_rowland-dotties-harvard-dot.s-edu> wrote in
message news:co4v7f0p31@drn.newsguy.com...
> Carlos wrote...
> >
> > Just bumped into it looking for quieter alternatives to the
> > ubiquitous TL062 for a battery powered bass guitar tone circuit.
> > Ok, power consumption is higher, but still much lower than the
> > usual audio opamp suspects, noise is decent, THD doesn't look bad.
> > It's expensive but in opamp world that means it costs $5 instead
> > of $0.50 and I only need one, so I think I'll manage. Any reason
> > not to use it or any better alternatives?
>
> The AD822 is a JFET replacement for an LM358 (half of an LM324)
> or LT1013 single-supply opamp, featuring rail-to-rail outputs.
> Both the single-supply and rail-to-rail aspects are attractive
> for some applications (especially with a JFET input), but both
> involve compromises that degrade the opamp's performance. There
> are _much_ better choices for high-quality audio JFET opamps.


Would you care to let us have your thoughts on high-quality audio op amps?

Graham Holloway
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
> - Win
Anonymous
November 25, 2004 11:43:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.design (More info?)

"Glenn Gundlach" <stratus46@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:acb22b57.0411251202.7c610cc@posting.google.com...
> clorenzo@eutelsat.fr (Carlos) wrote in message
> news:<bdab6169.0411250707.2362c7b7@posting.google.com>...
>> Just bumped into it looking for quieter alternatives to the ubiquitous
>> TL062 for a battery powered bass guitar tone circuit. Ok, power
>> consumption is higher, but still much lower than the usual audio opamp
>> suspects, noise is decent, THD doesn't look bad. It's expensive but in
>> opamp world that means it costs $5 instead of $0.50 and I only need
>> one, so I think I'll manage. Any reason not to use it or any better
>> alternatives?
>>
>> Many thanks,
>>
>> Carlos
>
> You might want to check out these chips
> http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa2134.pdf
>
> gg

Looks like the JFET equivalent to the venerable 5534 (performance rated for
driving 600 Ohm loads). Nice choice.
November 26, 2004 2:31:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.design (More info?)

But are there any with the sort of power consumption of the AD822 (800
uA/amp), preferably in an 8PDIP package? My first choice would have
been the OPA2134 (what I normally use), but as someone else said at 4
mA/amp is on the high side for battery operation.

Many thanks again,

Carlos

Winfield Hill <hill_a@t_rowland-dotties-harvard-dot.s-edu> wrote in message news:<co4v7f0p31@drn.newsguy.com>...
> There are _much_ better choices for high-quality audio JFET opamps.
Anonymous
November 26, 2004 3:03:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.design (More info?)

Glenn Gundlach wrote:

> clorenzo@eutelsat.fr (Carlos) wrote in message news:<bdab6169.0411250707.2362c7b7@posting.google.com>...
> > Just bumped into it looking for quieter alternatives to the ubiquitous
> > TL062 for a battery powered bass guitar tone circuit. Ok, power
> > consumption is higher, but still much lower than the usual audio opamp
> > suspects, noise is decent, THD doesn't look bad. It's expensive but in
> > opamp world that means it costs $5 instead of $0.50 and I only need
> > one, so I think I'll manage. Any reason not to use it or any better
> > alternatives?
> >
> > Many thanks,
> >
> > Carlos
>
> You might want to check out these chips
> http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa2134.pdf
>

Supply current at 4mA / op-amp is somewhat more than a TL062. Not ideal for battery operated.


Graham
Anonymous
November 26, 2004 2:28:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.design (More info?)

Carlos wrote...
>
> But are there any with the sort of power consumption of the AD822
> (800uA/amp), preferably in an 8PDIP package? My first choice would
> have been the OPA2134 (what I normally use), but as someone else
> said at 4mA/amp is on the high side for battery operation.

I'd say if you want 0.00008% distortion you'll have to pay the 4mA.
Perhaps you can afford more distortion? If so, how much?


--
Thanks,
- Win
Anonymous
November 26, 2004 5:28:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.design (More info?)

Carlos <clorenzo@eutelsat.fr> wrote:


>Just bumped into it looking for quieter alternatives to the ubiquitous
>TL062 for a battery powered bass guitar tone circuit. Ok, power
>consumption is higher, but still much lower than the usual audio opamp
>suspects, noise is decent, THD doesn't look bad. It's expensive but in
>opamp world that means it costs $5 instead of $0.50 and I only need
>one, so I think I'll manage. Any reason not to use it or any better
>alternatives?

If I recall correctly, I used it in my upgrade for a Music Man
StingRay Bass tone circuit.

Here's the article from long ago:

A few weeks back I wrote about how Mabel, my most attractive Ernie Ball
Music Man StingRay, had a bit of noticeable hiss when listened to
through headphones. When played through a speaker bottom the hiss
wasn't noticeable at all, but I sometimes record plugged directly into
the mixing board and often practice with my AMP BH420 head driving my
Grado HP-1 headphones. Then the hiss was a bit much.

Where did Mabel's hiss come from? Well, the StingRay has an active
pre-amp. The key component in the pre-amp is a Motorola TL-082 dual
op-amp. While it works very well on a single 9 Volt battery, has an
admirably low power consumption and a fast slew rate, the TL-082 does
have a fairly high noise level. If I boosted Mabel's high frequency EQ
at all, the hiss started to intrude. Luckily, dual op-amps come in a
standard 8-pin DIP package with standard pin-outs. I removed the
TL-082, installed a high quality socket in its place, and went
spelunking through the IC catalogs for potential replacements. When the
data sheets pointed to a likely candidate I rounded one up, plugged it
in and listened.

It wasn't an easy search but I found just the one: the Analog Devices
AD822. It has much better noise specs with only a negligible reduction
in battery life. And in addition to its lower noise, it brings an
equally important side effect: it sounds better! Considering how much I
already love my Mabel's tone, this is *not* a trivial matter.

When I listen very critically to Mabel using top quality 'phones, the
TL-082 has a quality that I can only characterize as slightly brittle,
or maybe a little glassy, or even like a little bit of momentary
flanging on the attack of a picked note, sort of a
tap-on-a-window-with-a-glass-rod overtone. The only way to tame it is
to cut too much of the StingRay's characteristic clarity and bite with a
serious cut of the amp's high frequency EQ. But when I installed the
AD822, the brittleness disappeared leaving Mabel's clarity and
incredibly forceful low end intact.

Even with the new op-amp, if I boost Mabel's high end a bit too much I
can still hear hiss, but it's not close to the TL-082's intrusive level.
And to keep me interested, her newly tamed voice is even more enticing
than before.

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
moskowit@core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912
Anonymous
November 26, 2004 5:31:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.design (More info?)

Karl Uppiano <karl.uppiano@verizon.net> wrote:

>Looks like the JFET equivalent to the venerable 5534 (performance rated for
>driving 600 Ohm loads). Nice choice.

But it's not single supply.

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
moskowit@core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912
November 26, 2004 9:22:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.design (More info?)

Winfield Hill <hill_a@t_rowland-dotties-harvard-dot.s-edu> wrote in message news:<co805202lsl@drn.newsguy.com>...
> I'd say if you want 0.00008% distortion you'll have to pay the 4mA.
> Perhaps you can afford more distortion? If so, how much?

To be honest I think for this application something like 0.1% would be
more than adequate. The circuit is basically a unity gain input buffer
followed by the usual negative feedback tone control arragement with
+/- 20 dB boost/cut, so I'd say worst case would be G = 10 @ 5 kHz
(harmonics and all I don't expect much life above that freq, if any
the 15" speaker will filter it out anyway). Any candidates giving 0.1%
THD or better under those conditions plus better noise performance
than the TL062?

If not, what's the best I can do at or below 1mA/amp consumption?

Tnx+,

Carlos
Anonymous
November 26, 2004 11:08:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.design (More info?)

>Karl Uppiano <karl.uppiano@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>Looks like the JFET equivalent to the venerable 5534 (performance rated for
>>driving 600 Ohm loads). Nice choice.
>
>But it's not single supply.

In many circuits, this won't matter. If the inputs and outputs of the
op amp are capacitor-coupled, and there's a resistive-divider biasing
network connected between the input and each supply pin, and if the
circuit doesn't require the op amp to drive its output particularly
close to either voltage rail, then it won't matter whether the op amp
is marketed as "single supply" or not.

Since op amps have no ground pin, and really don't know where "ground"
is in relation to their supply voltages, what really matters to them
is how close to their positive and negative rail voltages the input
and output signals have to go.

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!
Anonymous
November 26, 2004 11:48:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.design (More info?)

> But it's not single supply.

Both are -- or not -- you just bias them differently.
Anonymous
November 27, 2004 4:02:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.design (More info?)

Len Moskowitz wrote:

> Carlos <clorenzo@eutelsat.fr> wrote:
>
> >Just bumped into it looking for quieter alternatives to the ubiquitous
> >TL062 for a battery powered bass guitar tone circuit. Ok, power
> >consumption is higher, but still much lower than the usual audio opamp
> >suspects, noise is decent, THD doesn't look bad. It's expensive but in
> >opamp world that means it costs $5 instead of $0.50 and I only need
> >one, so I think I'll manage. Any reason not to use it or any better
> >alternatives?
>
> If I recall correctly, I used it in my upgrade for a Music Man
> StingRay Bass tone circuit.
>
> Here's the article from long ago:
>
> A few weeks back I wrote about how Mabel, my most attractive Ernie Ball
> Music Man StingRay, had a bit of noticeable hiss when listened to
> through headphones. When played through a speaker bottom the hiss
> wasn't noticeable at all, but I sometimes record plugged directly into
> the mixing board and often practice with my AMP BH420 head driving my
> Grado HP-1 headphones. Then the hiss was a bit much.
>
> Where did Mabel's hiss come from? Well, the StingRay has an active
> pre-amp. The key component in the pre-amp is a Motorola TL-082 dual
> op-amp. While it works very well on a single 9 Volt battery, has an
> admirably low power consumption and a fast slew rate, the TL-082 does
> have a fairly high noise level. If I boosted Mabel's high frequency EQ
> at all, the hiss started to intrude. Luckily, dual op-amps come in a
> standard 8-pin DIP package with standard pin-outs. I removed the
> TL-082, installed a high quality socket in its place, and went
> spelunking through the IC catalogs for potential replacements. When the
> data sheets pointed to a likely candidate I rounded one up, plugged it
> in and listened.
>
> It wasn't an easy search but I found just the one: the Analog Devices
> AD822. It has much better noise specs with only a negligible reduction
> in battery life. And in addition to its lower noise, it brings an
> equally important side effect: it sounds better! Considering how much I
> already love my Mabel's tone, this is *not* a trivial matter.
>
> When I listen very critically to Mabel using top quality 'phones, the
> TL-082 has a quality that I can only characterize as slightly brittle,
> or maybe a little glassy, or even like a little bit of momentary
> flanging on the attack of a picked note, sort of a
> tap-on-a-window-with-a-glass-rod overtone. The only way to tame it is
> to cut too much of the StingRay's characteristic clarity and bite with a
> serious cut of the amp's high frequency EQ. But when I installed the
> AD822, the brittleness disappeared leaving Mabel's clarity and
> incredibly forceful low end intact.
>
> Even with the new op-amp, if I boost Mabel's high end a bit too much I
> can still hear hiss, but it's not close to the TL-082's intrusive level.
> And to keep me interested, her newly tamed voice is even more enticing
> than before.

It was daft to use the TL082 in the first place.

The TL072 has the same current draw IIRC but lower noise. It is widely used
in quality audio ( whereas the 082 isn't ).

The TL062 has a tiny current draw ( great for battery use ) but is noiser
than the 082. Horses for courses.


Graham
Anonymous
November 27, 2004 4:15:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.design (More info?)

Winfield Hill wrote:

> Carlos wrote...
> >
> > But are there any with the sort of power consumption of the AD822
> > (800uA/amp), preferably in an 8PDIP package? My first choice would
> > have been the OPA2134 (what I normally use), but as someone else
> > said at 4mA/amp is on the high side for battery operation.
>
> I'd say if you want 0.00008% distortion you'll have to pay the 4mA.
> Perhaps you can afford more distortion? If so, how much?

He wants the lower noise.

I've been struggling to think of a better device in this application -
i.e. noise vs current draw.

If I have any inspiration, I'll post it.

TL071/2 is lower current at 1.4mA typ per amplifer but noise is higher
at 18nV / rt Hz than the OPA2134's 8nV / rt Hz although lower than the
062's 42 nV / rt Hz ( with it's 200uA typ per amplifer Icc ).

Practice suggests that TL072 is a good compromise choice. It also has
good typified distortion figures. It will work pretty well in this
application.

I recall incorporating 072s into a product back in 1980 when they were
pretty new.

I think the similar LF351/3 from Nat Semi offer 12nV / rt Hz ( subject
to memory accuracy here ) but unsure of Icc.

Lol - the book was on the shelp. 1.8mA / amplifier and 16nV / rt Hz.

The LF351/3 have a habit of being a little more 'touchy' though. Prone
to oscillating given half a chance.


Graham
Anonymous
November 27, 2004 4:17:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.design (More info?)

Len Moskowitz wrote:

> Karl Uppiano <karl.uppiano@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >Looks like the JFET equivalent to the venerable 5534 (performance rated for
> >driving 600 Ohm loads). Nice choice.
>
> But it's not single supply.

The 5535 isn't 'single supply' either.


Graham
Anonymous
November 27, 2004 6:24:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.design (More info?)

Carlos wrote:

> Winfield Hill <hill_a@t_rowland-dotties-harvard-dot.s-edu> wrote in message news:<co805202lsl@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > I'd say if you want 0.00008% distortion you'll have to pay the 4mA.
> > Perhaps you can afford more distortion? If so, how much?
>
> To be honest I think for this application something like 0.1% would be
> more than adequate. The circuit is basically a unity gain input buffer
> followed by the usual negative feedback tone control arragement with
> +/- 20 dB boost/cut, so I'd say worst case would be G = 10 @ 5 kHz
> (harmonics and all I don't expect much life above that freq, if any
> the 15" speaker will filter it out anyway). Any candidates giving 0.1%
> THD or better under those conditions plus better noise performance
> than the TL062?
>
> If not, what's the best I can do at or below 1mA/amp consumption?

The TL072 @ 1.4mA typ per amp Icc is way the best bet IMHO.

It should be a straight drop-in replacement for an 062 too without any further thought.

Not a 'touchy' op-amp ( except as a voltage follower - use a series resistor on the output for driving long lines -
use ~ 100 ohms ) well regarded - characterised low THD and low noise for your application ! Note for Hi-Z pickups,
the source Z may predominate in noise analysis rather than the input noise of the active stage.


Graham
November 27, 2004 6:13:14 PM

Archived from groups: (More info?)

On 26 Nov 2004 11:28:34 -0800, Winfield Hill
<hill_a@t_rowland-dotties-harvard-dot.s-edu> wrote:

>Carlos wrote...
>>
>> But are there any with the sort of power consumption of the AD822
>> (800uA/amp), preferably in an 8PDIP package? My first choice would
>> have been the OPA2134 (what I normally use), but as someone else
>> said at 4mA/amp is on the high side for battery operation.
>
> I'd say if you want 0.00008% distortion you'll have to pay the 4mA.
> Perhaps you can afford more distortion? If so, how much?

Hey, it's for a guitar. To get the "tone" it's wrung through a chain
of filters, clippers, distorters, echoes and other effects beyond all
recognition so why worry about a little bit of distortion at the
source?

Having said that, I make and sell a tone filter preamp for a guitar
making friend of mine using the TL072. It's basically unity gain, but
since the pickup signal normally is rather large (~ 100mV) the
subsequent gain is kept low enough to make the noise imperceptible. At
least there haven't been any complaints about it.

I have also examined other preamps, some of which were hissy and/or
distorty as all hell, those are usually badly designed bjt circuits.
They usually come my way because the owner wants to replace it with my
quieter version.

- YD.

--
Remove HAT if replying by mail.
November 29, 2004 6:23:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.design (More info?)

Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<41A7F359.60447CD5@hotmail.com>...

> The TL072 @ 1.4mA typ per amp Icc is way the best bet IMHO.

[snip]

Many thanks Graham and everyone else for your help. It does look as if
the TL072 will be the best option. I must admit I ovelooked it because
I assumed the specs would be similar to the 062, just higher power
consumption, but it looks more than adequate for this application.

Thanks again,

Carlos
Anonymous
November 29, 2004 5:22:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,sci.electronics.design (More info?)

Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> >Looks like the JFET equivalent to the venerable 5534 (performance rated for
>> >driving 600 Ohm loads). Nice choice.
>>
>> But it's not single supply.
>
>The 5535 isn't 'single supply' either.

But the AD822 is. And since he's running from a 9VDC battery that's
desirable.


--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
moskowit@core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912
!