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Why Can't TiVo Fix This Bug?

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Anonymous
May 16, 2005 3:04:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

So I have a season pass for a program. Because it sometimes runs over
(even though the schedule doesn't say so), I extend the recording by 2
minutes. One week there are two episodes scheduled back to back. TiVo
says it can't record the second one, because it conflicts with the first
episode.

Why can't TiVo recognize that the two shows are on the same channel and
record both? It doesn't seem that it would be too much trouble to check
when there is a conflict to see if the two shows are on the same channel.

--
Hank Gillette

More about : tivo fix bug

Anonymous
May 16, 2005 3:04:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Hank,

I'm guessing that they haven't thought about the problem. It seems
like the solution you offer would indeed be easily implementable.
Might I suggest that you contact Tivo support and ask them to include
this fix on a future release?

There will be some conflict as to where the second recording will
begin. You might end up with the start of the second episode on the
end of the first episode's recording -- still better than missing your
show entirely, eh?

-Steve

Hank Gillette wrote:
> So I have a season pass for a program. Because it sometimes runs over

> (even though the schedule doesn't say so), I extend the recording by
2
> minutes. One week there are two episodes scheduled back to back. TiVo

> says it can't record the second one, because it conflicts with the
first
> episode.
>
> Why can't TiVo recognize that the two shows are on the same channel
and
> record both? It doesn't seem that it would be too much trouble to
check
> when there is a conflict to see if the two shows are on the same
channel.
>
> --
> Hank Gillette
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 9:34:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

>I'm guessing that they haven't thought about the problem. It seems
>like the solution you offer would indeed be easily implementable.
>Might I suggest that you contact Tivo support and ask them to include
>this fix on a future release?
>
>There will be some conflict as to where the second recording will
>begin. You might end up with the start of the second episode on the
>end of the first episode's recording -- still better than missing your
>show entirely, eh?

My manual fix for this situation is to go edit the individual
recordings and change the padding on the end of the first show and
the beginning of the second to zero so they no longer conflict. I
recommend this as a "best guess" solution for an automatic conflict
resolution strategy.

Yes, you WILL (and I have) ended up with the start of the second
episode on the end of the first recording, or the end of the first
on the beginning of the second. Even if the TiVo keeps perfect
time, the broadcasters don't. Generally, though, if you could only
adjust the division points by integral minutes, this is the best
you could do, and another field for adjusting this doesn't seem
worth it.

I believe you lose about 3 seconds of recording when it switches
shows. This is not usually a practical problem.

Gordon L. Burditt
Related resources
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 10:55:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On 2005-05-16, levis501@yahoo.com <levis501@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hank,
>
> I'm guessing that they haven't thought about the problem. It seems
> like the solution you offer would indeed be easily implementable.
> Might I suggest that you contact Tivo support and ask them to include
> this fix on a future release?
>
> There will be some conflict as to where the second recording will
> begin. You might end up with the start of the second episode on the
> end of the first episode's recording -- still better than missing your
> show entirely, eh?

Ideally, the TiVo would be smart enough and advanced enough to take the
two minute overlap of the two shows and put it in both shows.

Have the first show be 62 minutes and the second show be 60 minutes with
the last two of the first and the first two of the second containing the
same contect. Just duplicate it in both recordings.
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 11:36:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"Hank Gillette" <hankgillette@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hankgillette-4B9F4A.23043515052005@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> So I have a season pass for a program. Because it sometimes runs over
> (even though the schedule doesn't say so), I extend the recording by 2
> minutes. One week there are two episodes scheduled back to back. TiVo
> says it can't record the second one, because it conflicts with the first
> episode.
>
> Why can't TiVo recognize that the two shows are on the same channel and
> record both? It doesn't seem that it would be too much trouble to check
> when there is a conflict to see if the two shows are on the same channel.
>
> --
> Hank Gillette

Sometimes networks change shows at the last minute, literally.

The easiest way is to use the manual setting for recording (setting your own
dates/times).

A year or so ago (MUCH less now) NBC was horrible at scheduling shows, I
don't know if it was to prevent people from recording shows by making start
and end times at odd times or just poor planning (my guess is the former).
You'd get a show starting at 8pm like every other network but ending at,
like, 8:28pm or 8:33pm which then throws off the entire rest of the night's
times. So if you wanted to record Scrubs, for example, it was usually
scheduled for 9pm-9:30pm but winds up being 9:03pm-9:42pm so you'd get a
recording of the last 3 minutes of Will & Grace and miss the last 12 minutes
of Scrubs. TiVo would try to compensate but more often than not you'd still
get screwed by NBC and not get a whole episode.

So I started setting recordings manually for some shows/networks, padding 5
minutes on each side to be absolutely sure I got everything I wanted.
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 2:33:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

In article <1116220012.046604.184160@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
levis501@yahoo.com wrote:

> There will be some conflict as to where the second recording will
> begin. You might end up with the start of the second episode on the
> end of the first episode's recording -- still better than missing your
> show entirely, eh?
>

Yeah, but I don't care about that. The only reason for padding is to
make sure that I get the whole program.

--
Hank Gillette
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 2:41:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

In article <118gc7348eqev4e@corp.supernews.com>,
gordonb.swp7a@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) wrote:

> My manual fix for this situation is to go edit the individual
> recordings and change the padding on the end of the first show and
> the beginning of the second to zero so they no longer conflict.

I do something like that if I catch it. The problem is that since TiVo
normally gets the shows I want to watch, I may not catch it in time.
Recently, Joey, which I've been padding a couple of minutes, ran two
shows back to back. If I hadn't caught it in time, I would have missed
the season finale.

The fact is, even if the times of two scheduled shows overlap, if they
are on the same channel, there is not a conflict. For that matter, if
two shows overlap by one minute on different channels, it would still be
preferable for TiVo to record as much of the second show as it can. To
simply refuse to record the second show with no notification (without
going into the To Do list or examining the season passes) defeats some
of the advantages of TiVo: to be able to record my shows without having
to pore through the TV listings. This should at least be an option for
the user. I would find it much more useful that some of the other
enhancements they've been adding.

--
Hank Gillette
May 16, 2005 3:50:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Mon, 16 May 2005 06:55:27 -0000, Mike Hunt <in2sheep@yahoo.com>
wrote:


>
>Ideally, the TiVo would be smart enough and advanced enough to take the
>two minute overlap of the two shows and put it in both shows.
>

Yes.

The only way Mike Ramseay could make that happen was to partner with
the Comcast developers. Unfortunatley, you're stuck with archaic
software until the Tivo developers are trained by the Comcast people.

In the meantime you could go to a cable DVR. The 2 tuner models that
have been out forever handle this situation fine.

Sean
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 6:07:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Hank Gillette <hankgillette@yahoo.com> wrote:

> So I have a season pass for a program. Because it sometimes runs over
>(even though the schedule doesn't say so), I extend the recording by 2
>minutes. One week there are two episodes scheduled back to back. TiVo
>says it can't record the second one, because it conflicts with the first
>episode.


People have been complaining about this since the beginning. It would
be SO easy to ignore padding when the next show is on the same
channel. Also, it could make a best guess at when to split the
shows, such as when video goes to black just before commercial. If it
doesn't, then just record the first show to the end of the padding
interval, then start recording the second one.

I wish they'd spend some time fixing bugs like this instead of adding
useless features like TivoToGo.


To reply, please remove one letter from each side of "@"
Spammers are VERMIN. Please kill them all.
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 7:26:35 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On 2005-05-16, Hank Gillette <hankgillette@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> The fact is, even if the times of two scheduled shows overlap, if they
> are on the same channel, there is not a conflict. For that matter, if
> two shows overlap by one minute on different channels, it would still be
> preferable for TiVo to record as much of the second show as it can.

Having an option would be nice. I had this same thought when I was
recording the Olympics. There would be like a 6-hour show and a 4-hour
show which overlapped by 1 hour. So I would have to decide which one to
record whereas ideally, it would just tape as much of the lower priority
one as it could.

For those that didn't watch (or don't remember), the Olympic coverage was
on a handful of channels and each segment typically had dozens of
different sports featured in it, at no particular time in the segment. So
in a 4-hour show, the sports you care about could be at the beginning or
end, but they probably only took 10-30 minutes of the block. Because of
this, I needed to record as much of the block as possible to catch what I
wanted to watch.

--
This is my .sig
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 9:06:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On 2005-05-16, Sean <none> wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2005 06:55:27 -0000, Mike Hunt <in2sheep@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Ideally, the TiVo would be smart enough and advanced enough to take the
>>two minute overlap of the two shows and put it in both shows.
>>
>
> The only way Mike Ramseay could make that happen was to partner with
> the Comcast developers. Unfortunatley, you're stuck with archaic
> software until the Tivo developers are trained by the Comcast people.

TiVo already has the capability to record two things at once. That is NOT
what we are talking about. So you're stuck with the archaic software
until TiVo can help Comcast out of the hole they dug themselves into.

> In the meantime you could go to a cable DVR. The 2 tuner models that
> have been out forever handle this situation fine.

The 2 "tuner" TiVo works fine too, but that's not what we're talking
about.

Fine, I'll give you an example since you appear to need help.

Tuner 1: recording show A from 8-10PM
Tuner 2: recording show B from 8:00-9:01PM

Problem: wanting to record lower priority show C from 9:00-10:00PM

(You'll notice Tuner 1 is busy and does not factor into this discussion)

Now, there are four options from here:

1) If show B and show C are on the same channel, TiVo could record show C
from 9:01-10:00PM since you will have the first minute at the end of show
B

2) If show B and show C are on the same channel, TiVo ideally would record
the 9:00-9:01 segment and put it in both show B AND show C

3) If show B and show C are on different channels, TiVo could record show
C from 9:01-10:00PM and just have you miss the 9:00-9:01 data

4) If show B and show C are on different channels, TiVo could not record
all of show C

Now, TiVo currently does #4. The OP asked about #1. I expanded that idea
to #2 along with wanting an option for #3. Comcast does not have anything
that can handle this any better than TiVo.

--
This is my .sig
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 9:06:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

> 1) If show B and show C are on the same channel, TiVo could record show C
> from 9:01-10:00PM since you will have the first minute at the end of show
> B

I think that's doable, and most people could live with it. I did notice
that this past Sunday, my Tivo recorded both 1/2 hour Simpson finale
episodes as one 1 hour segment, which surprised me.

> 2) If show B and show C are on the same channel, TiVo ideally would record
> the 9:00-9:01 segment and put it in both show B AND show C

That sounds logically possible, but is probably difficult practically.
First, you will only be able to record that segment once since you have
only one tuner available. Second, you can't just tack a copy of it onto
the second recording because of the way MPEG2 is compressed and encoded
(doesn't the compressed content at any one point depend on the
information preceding it?). Plus it would have to do this in real time,
since you may start watching the show at *any* point, including while it
is recording in the overlapping segment. I think you're best avoiding
this altogether.

> 3) If show B and show C are on different channels, TiVo could record show
> C from 9:01-10:00PM and just have you miss the 9:00-9:01 data

Well, you'd have to come up with some logic as to how much of a show
could be missed and still recorded. There would be little point in
recording show C if show B ran over 50 minutes (like say a Football
game). But I'd say it's feasible.


> Now, TiVo currently does #4. The OP asked about #1. I expanded that idea
> to #2 along with wanting an option for #3. Comcast does not have anything
> that can handle this any better than TiVo.

It may be that Tivo doesn't believe the situation comes up that often,
or that they're waiting for their next series recorder to add it.
However, it would be a nice feature to have.

Randy S.
May 17, 2005 12:00:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"Randy S." <rswittNO@SPAMgmail.com> wrote in news:D 6arnp$1gj4$1
@spnode25.nerdc.ufl.edu:

> I think that's doable, and most people could live with it. I did notice
> that this past Sunday, my Tivo recorded both 1/2 hour Simpson finale
> episodes as one 1 hour segment, which surprised me.

I don't know exactly when it 'clicked over', but I do know that for a time
before Sunday, it was listed as two different episodes. I did not notice
the change until I went to watch later and saw only one listing for The
Simpsons. The exact same thing happened last Thursday with Joey...two
distinct episodes, and then at some point the guide merged them into one.

I wonder if the networks are going to stop being dicks about the schedules,
or if TiVo finally got tired of the insults directed at them due to the
stupidity of the networks and made the change on their end.

> It may be that Tivo doesn't believe the situation comes up that often,
> or that they're waiting for their next series recorder to add it.
> However, it would be a nice feature to have.

After some time of being pissed at being an abandoned Series 1 owner, I
finally caved and bought a Series 2.

So expect the Series 3 next month.

--
Minister of All Things Digital & Electronic, and Holder of Past Knowledge
stile99@email.com. Cabal# 24601-fnord | Sleep is irrelevant.
I speak for no one but myself, and |Caffeine will be assimilated.
no one else speaks for me. O- | Decaf is futile.
May 17, 2005 1:34:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"RobMac" <rpmccartney@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:U92dnb0CO-pLGBXfRVn-gg@comcast.com...
>
> A year or so ago (MUCH less now) NBC was horrible at scheduling shows, I
> don't know if it was to prevent people from recording shows by making
> start and end times at odd times or just poor planning (my guess is the
> former).

Mostly to fit extra commercials into the higher rated shows. Those 30
second spots go for more $$$ than the same 30 second spot in a lower rated
show.
Anonymous
May 17, 2005 4:44:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Randy S. wrote:
> Second, you can't just tack a copy of it onto
> the second recording because of the way MPEG2 is compressed and encoded
> (doesn't the compressed content at any one point depend on the
> information preceding it?).

Nope. MPEG video consists of I-frames, B-frames, and P-frames.
Since only partial information is stored in the B-frames and P-frames,
they do depend on what preceded them. But I-frames are independent
JPEG-like images. An MPEG stream can be cleanly split on an I-frame
boundary with no further processing. Such edit points occur every
few seconds or so.
-Joe
Anonymous
May 17, 2005 11:48:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Joe Smith wrote:
> Randy S. wrote:
>
>> Second, you can't just tack a copy of it onto the second recording
>> because of the way MPEG2 is compressed and encoded (doesn't the
>> compressed content at any one point depend on the information
>> preceding it?).
>
>
> Nope. MPEG video consists of I-frames, B-frames, and P-frames.
> Since only partial information is stored in the B-frames and P-frames,
> they do depend on what preceded them. But I-frames are independent
> JPEG-like images. An MPEG stream can be cleanly split on an I-frame
> boundary with no further processing. Such edit points occur every
> few seconds or so.
> -Joe

Ok, thanks Joe, I'm not totally up on the specifics of MPEG2, though I
have some idea about video compression in general. Thanks for being
specific.

Randy S.
Anonymous
May 17, 2005 4:14:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

> A year or so ago (MUCH less now) NBC was horrible at scheduling shows, I
> don't know if it was to prevent people from recording shows by making
start
> and end times at odd times or just poor planning (my guess is the former).

That and pimping more advertising time within a "show" were probably the
excuse.

> So I started setting recordings manually for some shows/networks

I just stopped watching them. If they're willing to indicate so clearly
what contempt they have for the viewing audience then I'm willing to wait
until the shows come out again in syndication. Tell *that* to the
advertisers.
Anonymous
May 17, 2005 4:17:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

> Mostly to fit extra commercials into the higher rated shows. Those 30
> second spots go for more $$$ than the same 30 second spot in a lower rated
> show.

True, but they're worthless if it drives off the audience. Granted, the DVR
viewing portion of the audience is (currently) smaller and does have FFWD
capability. Even with being able to skip I still find a fair portion of the
ads to be informative and do watch them from time to time.
May 18, 2005 12:43:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"wkearney99" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:UbSdnXAHP_RghRffRVn-iQ@speakeasy.net...
>> Mostly to fit extra commercials into the higher rated shows. Those 30
>> second spots go for more $$$ than the same 30 second spot in a lower
>> rated
>> show.
>
> True, but they're worthless if it drives off the audience. Granted, the
> DVR
> viewing portion of the audience is (currently) smaller and does have FFWD
> capability. Even with being able to skip I still find a fair portion of
> the
> ads to be informative and do watch them from time to time.

Well, this many years into doing it, I'd say it's probably proved it's
value, as they continue to do it to more shows and more often. Apparently
the millions of $$$ they are making off the extra 2 minutes of commercials
outweighs the (relatively) few viewers this practice drives away.

Me too. I often find myself checking a commercial that caught my eye, and
then when watching a different show with the wife later on, watch it a
second time when I play it for her.
!