An Audio Topic of World Catastrophic Proportions- Volume K..

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

The weight of the knob is not going to have an effect on the performance
characterises of the amplifier. A heavier control will mean more mass, and
more material mass and weight for the manufacturing process, and will add to
the shipping costs. In the end the consumer will end up paying a few dollars
more. A volume control is something you will set in to position, and hardly
move it for hours at a time.

The industry is trying to use less mass of materials for conservation, and
at the same time, to help keep the cost down.

If you ever walked in to a recording studio, and saw the controls on state
of the art equipment, you would see that everything is very small, very
accurate, and as compact as possible when it comes to controls.

--

Jerry G.
======


"dangling entity" <randycat99@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1110175833.335632.13480@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Thank you, gentlemen, for attending this meeting during such impending
crisis.

So what's the deal with volume knobs on amplifiers lately? They don't
have the same "feel" they had "back in the day", no? I realize this
has just about zero basis in equipment quality, but I always thought
this was a strange practice that has come to being. What am I babbling
on about? I've noticed (and this probably has somewhat to do with the
particular era from when I became "hi-fi equipment aware") that the big
volume knobs no longer have that "weighty" feel (high rotary inertia
would be the technical term). I "liked" that feel, in the same vein of
that assuring "heavy-bulit" sense. So why don't manufacturers still
cater to this (even a little bit), these days? I don't advocate buying
your amp by the pound, either, but is it too much to ask for a heavy
volume knob?  

I was perusing the stereo shop lately, and I went and turned the knob
on every receiver on the wall- cheap ones and expensive ones. That
"weighty" feel is no where to be found. It's a totally different feel
now. Very light, but with a frictional resistance. Not even a
viscous/fluid sort of resistance (like the door on a cassette deck),
but just plain frictional like the knob is rubbing tightly against
something in its internal mechanism. I realize this didn't just happen
yesterday, though. I've seen it years ago, but I just passed it off as
a phase in the industry. Nonetheless, it is still here, and it doesn't
seem like a phase. Maybe "heavy" is no longer perceived with good
build (wrt volume knobs). ...or maybe these frictional knob styles do?
...or maybe people are no longer expected to get *any* impression from
volume knobs? Afterall, it's all about the remote control now, so
specifying a "particular" volume knob to give an impression is really
futile, perhaps? ...but they'll go so far as to put a pretty blue
light inside a volume knob, right?

I'm just wondering what other industry-interested people think about
this. Does it matter to you at all, or not? Is some of the "magic"
gone with these bland volume knobs, or has the definition of "magic"
just changed?

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Please note that no claim was made that performance would somehow be
improved with "heavier" volume knobs. What I am asking about has more
to do with the "desirability of the packaging". This is just as
important as the actual quality of the hardware when it comes to
actually moving units off the shelf. The "heavy" metal faceplate
remains. There is the fancy markings and displays on the front. All
sorts of things remain, that are not directly contributive for the
sound quality. Perhaps, it is simply a singular view held by me that a
"heavy" volume knob should still be part of the deal? That's what I am
asking. I'm not asking for a 5 lbs volume knob or anything. We're
talking about a few more ounces concentrated on the rim to make the
knob "feel" more heavy when rotated. I want the knob to feel weight,
and I want it to glide "effortlessly" on its bearing. *That* effect is
what suggests an element of quality to me (as far as what a volume knob
can do). This is in stark contrast to the current trend that seems to
gravitate to flimsy plastic knobs that do not glide easily (and in
fact, have a "lashback" that makes setting the knob to the position
*you* want rather cumbersome). That would not even seem to meet the
minimalist, yet functionalist, criteria that you cite for professional
recording studio equipment. Understandibly, the knobs in those
equipments have a some resistance to retain their setting securely, but
they don't have lashback (they stop turning when you stop turning
them).

I guess I am lamenting that the "art of a good volume knob" seems to be
lost when it comes to mainstream consumer equipment, imo. I was
wondering if anybody else has noticed this.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On 6 Mar 2005 22:10:33 -0800, "dangling entity"
<randycat99@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Thank you, gentlemen, for attending this meeting during such impending
>crisis.
>
>So what's the deal with volume knobs on amplifiers lately? They don't
>have the same "feel" they had "back in the day", no? I realize this
>has just about zero basis in equipment quality, but I always thought
>this was a strange practice that has come to being. What am I babbling
>on about? I've noticed (and this probably has somewhat to do with the
>particular era from when I became "hi-fi equipment aware") that the big
>volume knobs no longer have that "weighty" feel (high rotary inertia
>would be the technical term). I "liked" that feel, in the same vein of
>that assuring "heavy-bulit" sense. So why don't manufacturers still
>cater to this (even a little bit), these days? I don't advocate buying
>your amp by the pound, either, but is it too much to ask for a heavy
>volume knob?  
>
>I was perusing the stereo shop lately, and I went and turned the knob
>on every receiver on the wall- cheap ones and expensive ones. That
>"weighty" feel is no where to be found. It's a totally different feel
>now. Very light, but with a frictional resistance. Not even a
>viscous/fluid sort of resistance (like the door on a cassette deck),
>but just plain frictional like the knob is rubbing tightly against
>something in its internal mechanism. I realize this didn't just happen
>yesterday, though. I've seen it years ago, but I just passed it off as
>a phase in the industry. Nonetheless, it is still here, and it doesn't
>seem like a phase. Maybe "heavy" is no longer perceived with good
>build (wrt volume knobs). ...or maybe these frictional knob styles do?
> ...or maybe people are no longer expected to get *any* impression from
>volume knobs? Afterall, it's all about the remote control now, so
>specifying a "particular" volume knob to give an impression is really
>futile, perhaps? ...but they'll go so far as to put a pretty blue
>light inside a volume knob, right?
>
>I'm just wondering what other industry-interested people think about
>this. Does it matter to you at all, or not? Is some of the "magic"
>gone with these bland volume knobs, or has the definition of "magic"
>just changed?

I thought about this while cleaning out a closet today. Dinky knobs
are not necessarily a modern phenomenon. The first item to see
daylight was a Sanyo integrated amp with a tiny, sloppy volume knob,
probably mid-'80s. Next up was a Sanyo receiver of similar vintage,
with a larger plastic volume knob that spun quite freely. The ultimate
indignity was a mid-to-late '80s Technics receiver with no knobs at
all -- just sliders. I never gave it much thought before, but I really
do enjoy the look and feel of my Pioneer SX-780 with its big machined
aluminum knobs and switches.

What used to drive me nuts was the detented volume knob on a mid-'70s
Kenwood integrated amp that I had for ages. The exact volume level I
wanted was always between the detents, and it just didn't want to go
there.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

True, I suspected the remote motor mechanism might have something do to
with it. However, even the motorized knob in my "vintage" 1990 unit
(that I keep around and use to this day) is remarkably different than
today's motorized volume knobs. Right away, you can tell the new ones
are "lighter", more frictional resistance, and a ridiculous amount of
lash (ok, I guess that part relies a lot on the particular model).
They just feel very flimsy and cheap. I maintain that the state of
volume knobs has really fallen purely out of neglect, rather than the
advent of motorization or the desire to cut weight-associated shipping
costs.

Oh and yes, those "encoder detent" style knobs where pretty horrendous.
Also, that digital push button up and down to change the "dB readout"
control was pretty awful, back in the 90's, as well. Talk about not
being able to get the "in between" setting you really want... Aiyeee!!!
I hate them on my car radio, and I hate the idea that they still use
pushbuttons for volume control to this day. It's good to see that some
car radios are bringing back the rotary knob, though.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"dangling entity" <randycat99@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:1110175833.335632.13480@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

> I was perusing the stereo shop lately, and I went and turned the knob
> on every receiver on the wall- cheap ones and expensive ones. That
> "weighty" feel is no where to be found. It's a totally different feel
> now. Very light, but with a frictional resistance. Not even a
> viscous/fluid sort of resistance (like the door on a cassette deck),
> but just plain frictional like the knob is rubbing tightly against
> something in its internal mechanism.

That frictional resistance is the clutch connecting the volume knob to the
remote control motor. To get that old time feeling, you need to look at
units without any remote volume control.

--
Murray Peterson

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

What I do when I have a sloppy knob (oo err Mrs.)... Whip the knob off,
place a rubber washer over the pot shaft, replace knob and squash washer to
taste. Voila....A modern pot now feels like a vintage Allen Bradley.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"dangling entity" <randycat99@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1110175833.335632.13480@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com
> Thank you, gentlemen, for attending this meeting during such impending
> crisis.
>
> So what's the deal with volume knobs on amplifiers lately? They don't
> have the same "feel" they had "back in the day", no? I realize this
> has just about zero basis in equipment quality, but I always thought
> this was a strange practice that has come to being.

Strange practice?

It's all about efficiency, both in terms of materials, process and use.

Also, amplifiers themselves are getting smaller and lighter, for similar
reasons. One essence of technological progress is continual trivialization
of old-tech items.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

peter wrote:
> What I do when I have a sloppy knob (oo err Mrs.)... Whip the knob
> off, place a rubber washer over the pot shaft, replace knob and
> squash washer to taste. Voila....A modern pot now feels like a
> vintage Allen Bradley.

Seems like a rubber washer would 'grab' and be otherwise generally
uncomfortable. Perhaps you use some different kind of rubber than what I'm
imagining from your post.

OTOH, taking a tip from many pieces of old gear I have around, a FELT washer
should provide a better feel.....

jak

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

t the big
> volume knobs no longer have that "weighty" feel (high rotary inertia
> would be the technical term). I "liked" that feel, in the same vein of
> that assuring "heavy-bulit" sense. So why don't manufacturers still
> cater to this (even a little bit), these days? I don't advocate buying
> your amp by the pound, either, but is it too much to ask for a heavy
> volume knob?  
>


I suspect it is because the cost of a decent pot and big knob to go with it
is probably not that much less than the cost of having the entire pcb
manufactured in China or wherever labour is cheapest these days. Faced with
an amp with a big knob that costs a big chunk more than an identical amp
with a small knob and exactly the same performance, I suspect most punters
would vote with their wallet and would fill newsgroups with complaints about
manufacturers ripping off the public bu charging a huge mark up just for a
big knob.

By the way, you should find out how much a mic/line amp gain switch assembly
for a Neve costs. Now that is a decent knob.


Gareth.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

t the big
> volume knobs no longer have that "weighty" feel (high rotary inertia
> would be the technical term). I "liked" that feel, in the same vein of
> that assuring "heavy-bulit" sense. So why don't manufacturers still
> cater to this (even a little bit), these days? I don't advocate buying
> your amp by the pound, either, but is it too much to ask for a heavy
> volume knob?  
>


I suspect it is because the cost of a decent pot and big knob to go with it
is probably not that much less than the cost of having the entire pcb
manufactured in China or wherever labour is cheapest these days. Faced with
an amp with a big knob that costs a big chunk more than an identical amp
with a small knob and exactly the same performance, I suspect most punters
would vote with their wallet and would fill newsgroups with complaints about
manufacturers ripping off the public bu charging a huge mark up just for a
big knob.

By the way, you should find out how much a mic/line amp gain switch assembly
for a Neve costs. Now that is a decent knob.


Gareth.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"dangling entity" <randycat99@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1110175833.335632.13480@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Thank you, gentlemen, for attending this meeting during such
> impending
> crisis.

(respectful snip)

> I don't advocate buying
> your amp by the pound, either

You could do a lot worse! <g>
Cheers,
Roger