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sunfire true subwoofer - big bass from a tiny box?

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Anonymous
March 17, 2005 6:01:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

I understand that it's air pressure and that base wavelengths are 20 to
30 feet. I can grasp a 15" woofer in a 6 cubit foot enclosure making
bass below 30Hz +/- 3dB in relation to the rest of the system. BUT even
with high excursion can the bass coming out of a 9" cube compare to that
of the larger driver in the larger box? Technically something has to be
missing. Are the transients much worse? What gives? A 9" cube can
actually make great bass?
Anonymous
March 18, 2005 12:21:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

In article <Pml_d.3047$b%7.2081@fe08.lga>,
Ozzy 2005 <ozzy2005@spamlovesyou.com> wrote:

> I understand that it's air pressure and that base wavelengths are 20 to
> 30 feet. I can grasp a 15" woofer in a 6 cubit foot enclosure making
> bass below 30Hz +/- 3dB in relation to the rest of the system. BUT even
> with high excursion can the bass coming out of a 9" cube compare to that
> of the larger driver in the larger box? Technically something has to be
> missing. Are the transients much worse? What gives? A 9" cube can
> actually make great bass?

It can make some bass but with awful efficiency, an uneven frequency
response, and wicked distortion at low frequencies. It's a limitation
caused by the air behind the driver. I have yet to hear a tolerable
consumer subwoofer costing less than several thousand dollars. That's
why I have a home-made sub.
Anonymous
March 18, 2005 1:33:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Actually, I think it makes very impressive bass. I think where most
people go wrong with it (which includes various reviewers, as well) is
that they assume it can also be put in larger rooms like you would a
15/18" subwoofer. That is just wrong from the start. If you are going
to fill a large room with sound (w/o over-extending the transducers),
then you will need larger drivers for the most part. You need big
surface area. Though you can compensate with stroke to a point, it
gets impractical in multiple levels pretty quick at extremes. This is
where you get comments such as "high distortion products" when you read
about this product. Used correctly, you will not experience this. If
you play it to within an inch of its life to fill a larger room with
"big bass", you will encounter distortion issues just like any other
subwoofer that is over-extended beyond its capabilities.

That said (after much personal experience with the product), it works
magnificently in a smaller room. That is the whole reason of having a
subwoofer of this demure stature, afterall- so it doesn't become
physically dominating in space-confined environments. Typically you
would need a woofer and box combo that is considerably larger to
duplicate the same spectrum of sound that you get with this little lump
of speaker. If you have the space in your listening area, then by all
means, larger woofers are certainly a good option. If you don't have
the space or only have small areas where you could "hide" a sub, then
this sub (or even multiple units of it) is definitely a good choice.

The only weak spot I can lament (and it is truly a minor complaint) is
that it is not necesarrily the best candidate to beat you over the head
with excessive volumes of upper bass. This is most certainly something
that is focused for deep bass augmentation (something its size makes
misleading). For the hard rock conniseur, it is highly suggested to
still have standard woofers on tap to shore up that 70-500 Hz range.
That is still a crucial range to give the subjective impression of
"loud bass" for drum and guitar. For just about any other material
(from various music styles to home theater), the sunfire is quite
adequate to deliver.
Related resources
March 18, 2005 9:06:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

In article <mcmurtri-90EA85.21210117032005@corp-radius.supernews.com>,
Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> In article <Pml_d.3047$b%7.2081@fe08.lga>,
> Ozzy 2005 <ozzy2005@spamlovesyou.com> wrote:
>
> > I understand that it's air pressure and that base wavelengths are 20 to
> > 30 feet. I can grasp a 15" woofer in a 6 cubit foot enclosure making
> > bass below 30Hz +/- 3dB in relation to the rest of the system. BUT even
> > with high excursion can the bass coming out of a 9" cube compare to that
> > of the larger driver in the larger box? Technically something has to be
> > missing. Are the transients much worse? What gives? A 9" cube can
> > actually make great bass?
>
> It can make some bass but with awful efficiency, an uneven frequency
> response, and wicked distortion at low frequencies. It's a limitation
> caused by the air behind the driver. I have yet to hear a tolerable
> consumer subwoofer costing less than several thousand dollars. That's
> why I have a home-made sub.

I strongly concur, the commercially made subs I've been exposed to and
enjoyed cost much more than I'm willing/able to shell out.

I too roll my own.

--
Cyrus

*coughcasaucedoprodigynetcough*
Anonymous
March 18, 2005 11:36:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Ozzy,

> even with high excursion can the bass coming out of a 9" cube compare to
that of the larger driver in the larger box? <

I can't speak to the newer 9 inch model, but my 11 inch Sunfire is one of
the coolest pieces of hardware I have ever owned. A good friend of mine has
the larger 13 inch version, in a *very* large living room, and his sounds
just as impressive.

Sunfire subs produce an absolutely astonishing amount of solid - and very
clean - output, and mine has no problem filling my 25 by 16 by 11 home
theater with earth shaking bass. I'll also mention that my HT room is
heavily treated with bass traps, which is at least as important for getting
a good low end than the choice of loudspeaker of subwoofer. I don't think
it's possible to assess low frequencies at all in a room unless there's at
least some amount of bass trapping. Otherwise, everything you hear is
determined more by the room than anything else.

The Sunfire uses some amazing technology to do what it does. First, even
though the cone (piston, really) is fairly small, it has a 3 inch excursion.
So it can move more air than a typical 15 inch cone that can't travel
nearly as far. The Sunfire also has an incredibly powerful switching
amplifier. Mine claims 2400 watts, which is as much as you can get from a
20-amp 120 volt power outlet. The Sunfire achieves its very low distortion
by including the piston's motion in the amplifier's negative feedback loop.

--Ethan
Anonymous
March 18, 2005 1:04:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Ozzy 2005" <ozzy2005@spamlovesyou.com> wrote in message
news:p ml_d.3047$b%7.2081@fe08.lga...
>I understand that it's air pressure and that base wavelengths are 20 to 30
>feet. I can grasp a 15" woofer in a 6 cubit foot enclosure making bass
>below 30Hz +/- 3dB in relation to the rest of the system. BUT even with
>high excursion can the bass coming out of a 9" cube compare to that of the
>larger driver in the larger box? Technically something has to be missing.
>Are the transients much worse? What gives? A 9" cube can actually make
>great bass?

You can get great bass from something even smaller; try a pair of
headphones.

Look at the response curve of any speaker. Theoretically, one can get any
response that fits within the curve. Practical matters generally limit the
low frequency response to either inadequate output, extreme inefficiency or
a small room.

Norm
Anonymous
March 18, 2005 5:54:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:36:23 -0500, "Ethan Winer" <ethanw at ethanwiner dot
com> wrote:

>The Sunfire achieves its very low distortion
>by including the piston's motion in the amplifier's negative feedback loop.

Huh?
Anonymous
March 18, 2005 10:16:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

SNIPT
> misleading). For the hard rock conniseur, it is highly suggested to
> still have standard woofers on tap to shore up that 70-500 Hz range.
> That is still a crucial range to give the subjective impression of
> "loud bass" for drum and guitar. For just about any other material
> (from various music styles to home theater), the sunfire is quite
> adequate to deliver.
>

I'm using Green Mountain Audio Europa's and the room is 12' x 12' with
8' ceiling. I understand what others are saying about a big driver in a
big box but for this room and that I do listen mostly to rock I'm glad
to hear that these actually do work. I rarely use more than a watt of
power as my RS digital SPL meter peaks in the mids eighty dB range. So
between small room size and low listening levels distortion won't be a
problem.

That all said and that I am going to go ahead and get one now as it will
work in my situation from what I've read herein, I'm sure even after I
hook it up I won't believe that it's actually working. 9"
cubed??????????? But I guess I'll eventually get used to the fact it
does work. Should be very interesting.

Plus I still get to look forward to that big room someday hopefully when
I can roll my own 12 cu ft box with two fifteens !! Too bad Focal
stopped selling those Audioms/

Thanks to all for posting it's been a great help.
Anonymous
March 18, 2005 11:23:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Cyrus <invalid@i.like.spam> wrote:
> In article <mcmurtri-90EA85.21210117032005@corp-radius.supernews.com>,
> Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtri@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> > In article <Pml_d.3047$b%7.2081@fe08.lga>,
> > Ozzy 2005 <ozzy2005@spamlovesyou.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I understand that it's air pressure and that base wavelengths are 20 to
> > > 30 feet. I can grasp a 15" woofer in a 6 cubit foot enclosure making
> > > bass below 30Hz +/- 3dB in relation to the rest of the system. BUT even
> > > with high excursion can the bass coming out of a 9" cube compare to that
> > > of the larger driver in the larger box? Technically something has to be
> > > missing. Are the transients much worse? What gives? A 9" cube can
> > > actually make great bass?
> >
> > It can make some bass but with awful efficiency, an uneven frequency
> > response, and wicked distortion at low frequencies. It's a limitation
> > caused by the air behind the driver. I have yet to hear a tolerable
> > consumer subwoofer costing less than several thousand dollars. That's
> > why I have a home-made sub.

> I strongly concur, the commercially made subs I've been exposed to and
> enjoyed cost much more than I'm willing/able to shell out.

> I too roll my own.


Where's a website with good plans for a 'roll your own' sub?




--

-S
It's not my business to do intelligent work. -- D. Rumsfeld, testifying
before the House Armed Services Committee
March 19, 2005 12:50:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

In article <d1fdcd$bci$2@reader1.panix.com>,
Steven Sullivan <ssully@panix.com> wrote:


>
> Where's a website with good plans for a 'roll your own' sub?


The very few that I've 'rolled' have been by trial and error mixed with
a little eq to flatten room interactions. There can't be any perfect
plans, question the source if they claim it. IMHO High displacement, low
Q systems are easier to diy rather than fancy electronic trickery.

diyaudio.com is an somewhat experienced forum for ideas
http://f20.parsimony.net/forum36475/ "Cult of the Infinitely Baffled"
http://www.audioroundtable.com/ geared toward horn and high efficiency
varieties

Visit most makers of drivers mentioned on those sites for further ideas.

hth,

--
Cyrus

*coughcasaucedoprodigynetcough*
March 19, 2005 4:23:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

In article <EbK_d.96$wl2.37@fe08.lga>,
Ozzy 2005 <ozzy2005@spamlovesyou.com> wrote:


> Plus I still get to look forward to that big room someday hopefully when
> I can roll my own 12 cu ft box with two fifteens !! Too bad Focal
> stopped selling those Audioms/

Or use up exactly zero in room space and go IB.

--
Cyrus

*coughcasaucedoprodigynetcough*
Anonymous
March 19, 2005 4:23:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Cyrus wrote:
> In article <EbK_d.96$wl2.37@fe08.lga>,
> Ozzy 2005 <ozzy2005@spamlovesyou.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Plus I still get to look forward to that big room someday hopefully when
>>I can roll my own 12 cu ft box with two fifteens !! Too bad Focal
>>stopped selling those Audioms/
>
>
> Or use up exactly zero in room space and go IB.
>
Infinite Baffle ?? Hole in the floor to basement ?
March 19, 2005 5:13:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

In article <JML_d.20564$0t1.4679@fe12.lga>,
Ozzy 2005 <ozzy2005@spamlovesyou.com> wrote:

> Cyrus wrote:
> > In article <EbK_d.96$wl2.37@fe08.lga>,
> > Ozzy 2005 <ozzy2005@spamlovesyou.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Plus I still get to look forward to that big room someday hopefully when
> >>I can roll my own 12 cu ft box with two fifteens !! Too bad Focal
> >>stopped selling those Audioms/
> >
> >
> > Or use up exactly zero in room space and go IB.
> >
> Infinite Baffle ?? Hole in the floor to basement ?

Infinite Baffle yes.

Or a hole in ceiling to attic, or hole in wall to adjacent room. Many
possibilities.

Check out: http://f20.parsimony.net/forum36475/ "The Cult"

Click on 'IB Photo Gallery and Project Info'.

hth,

--
Cyrus

*coughcasaucedoprodigynetcough*
Anonymous
March 19, 2005 9:31:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Cyrus <invalid@i.like.spam> wrote:
> In article <d1fdcd$bci$2@reader1.panix.com>,
> Steven Sullivan <ssully@panix.com> wrote:


> >
> > Where's a website with good plans for a 'roll your own' sub?


> The very few that I've 'rolled' have been by trial and error mixed with
> a little eq to flatten room interactions. There can't be any perfect
> plans, question the source if they claim it. IMHO High displacement, low
> Q systems are easier to diy rather than fancy electronic trickery.

> diyaudio.com is an somewhat experienced forum for ideas
> http://f20.parsimony.net/forum36475/ "Cult of the Infinitely Baffled"
> http://www.audioroundtable.com/ geared toward horn and high efficiency
> varieties

> Visit most makers of drivers mentioned on those sites for further ideas.

> hth,


Thanks. I already have a 10" Velodyne F1000 that I';ve owned for years
now, and in the smallish room I use now for listening, it's entirely
adequate; I'm thinking of adding a second sub as future-proofing for a
larger room. Do two 10" subs 'equal' one ~18" sub?

As far as DIY subs go, how is the Dayton Titanic kit (they have 10", 12"
and 15" drivers as options, and the cabinet's preassembled) that partsexpress
sells? The 10" looks pretty attractive to me price-wise.
March 19, 2005 10:13:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

In article <d1gh0r$kc7$2@reader1.panix.com>,
Steven Sullivan <ssully@panix.com> wrote:


> Thanks. I already have a 10" Velodyne F1000 that I';ve owned for years
> now, and in the smallish room I use now for listening, it's entirely
> adequate; I'm thinking of adding a second sub as future-proofing for a
> larger room. Do two 10" subs 'equal' one ~18" sub?

IMHO There are too many factors involved to just say X number of smaller
subs from X company equals X number of larger subs from X company. To
help out though, consider cone area/displacement/xmax/type of
enclosure/enclosure tuning etc etc.

All else being equal about a line of subs, I would venture to say two
10" subs more closely resemble ~.75 of a 15" sub. If that makes any
sense.

>
> As far as DIY subs go, how is the Dayton Titanic kit (they have 10", 12"
> and 15" drivers as options, and the cabinet's preassembled) that partsexpress
> sells? The 10" looks pretty attractive to me price-wise.

I've only heard one Titanic 12" MK2 kit in a small room (12x15x8),
unEQ'ed. It held its own. Titanic's are somewhat popular, the kits make
them easy access.

If one is into tinkering, there are plenty of drivers out there from
reputable companies as well as plate/rack amps of varying quality.

hth,

--
Cyrus

*coughcasaucedoprodigynetcough*
Anonymous
March 19, 2005 2:36:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

François,

> Huh? <

This is a technique for reducing distortion in woofers and subwoofers.
Mackie also does this in their HR series loudspeakers. The idea is to sense
the amount of current drawn by the speaker driver, and compare that to the
amount of current that *should* be drawn for whatever voltage is currently
applied. This tells the driving amplifier if the cone position is where it
should be for a given input signal, and if not the amplifier can put out
more or less voltage to compensate. This is a form of negative feedback that
results in lower distortion.

--Ethan
Anonymous
March 19, 2005 6:39:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Ozzy 2005" <ozzy2005@spamlovesyou.com> wrote in message
news:p ml_d.3047$b%7.2081@fe08.lga
> I understand that it's air pressure and that base wavelengths are 20
> to 30 feet. I can grasp a 15" woofer in a 6 cubit foot enclosure
> making bass below 30Hz +/- 3dB in relation to the rest of the system.

Been there done that. For years I had a 14 cubic foot system with a 18"
"Earthquake" subwoofer. It was about

> BUT even with high excursion can the bass coming out of a 9" cube
> compare to that of the larger driver in the larger box?

Ultimately bass performance depends on the amount of air that can be moved
without distortion.

>Technically something has to be missing.

What's missing for sure is effciency. However, high powered amps are pretty
cheap these days.

>Are the transients much worse?

You don't buy subwoofers based on transient response.

>What gives?

Efficiency.

>A 9" cube can actually make great bass?

Yes, its possible.
Anonymous
March 19, 2005 6:39:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

It's possible but pretty goddamned unlikely, is perhaps a better
assessment. You might look at Bill Fitzmaurice's bass cabs or some of
the underfloor designs as published in Speaker Builder. Really
inefficient speakers usually lack a certain something sonically too.
Anonymous
March 20, 2005 12:01:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

<calcerise@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1111270256.537442.202530@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com

<a technical incompetent who is apparently unable to quote posts spewed on
the web>

> It's possible but pretty goddamned unlikely, is perhaps a better
> assessment.

On what technical grounds? BTW I mean technical grounds, not name-dropping.

>You might look at Bill Fitzmaurice's bass cabs or some of
> the underfloor designs as published in Speaker Builder.

Letsee, Bill Fitzmaurice has a web site:

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/

Hey, I rcognize those pictures - they are known in the sound reinforcement
trade as bass bins. So Cal, if power amps for sound reinforcement are such a
bad idea, why are you recommending speakers that are obviously designed for
the sound reinforcment trade?

> Really inefficient speakers usually lack a certain something sonically
too.

Well, they lack efficiency. So, when hooked to one of your hobby-horse
penny-whistle low-watt toob amps, they do lack SPL.
Anonymous
March 20, 2005 2:24:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Arny Krueger wrote:
> <calcerise@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1111270256.537442.202530@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com
>
> <a technical incompetent who is apparently unable to quote posts
spewed on
> the web>

It just seemed excess bandwidth, is all.

> Hey, I rcognize those pictures - they are known in the sound
reinforcement
> trade as bass bins. So Cal, if power amps for sound reinforcement are
such a
> bad idea, why are you recommending speakers that are obviously
designed for
> the sound reinforcment trade?
>
> > Really inefficient speakers usually lack a certain something
sonically
> too.
>
> Well, they lack efficiency. So, when hooked to one of your
hobby-horse
> penny-whistle low-watt toob amps, they do lack SPL.

I have never advocated hobby horse penny whistle low watt toob amps. I
DO advocate amps that are good sounding at the very low levels they
will spend most of their time running at while providing reasonable
power. They can be tube or solid state. There are some very good solid
state amps out there. However there are some great tube ones too and
they are fun to build in many cases. The solid state ones can be built
as well.

Bill Fitzmaurice's bass bins are suited with some variance of
construction to domestic and sound reinforcement use. Some amplifiers
are as well. Some PA amps are adequate and suitable for home use, I
never said they weren't, but just as a bass bin built for touring sound
will be optimized differently than one for home use the same is often
true of amps as well. Suitable and optimal are two different things.
You could build an airplane with a small block Chevy with suitable
results (provided it's a blueprinted, four bolt block forged crank
marine version) but it won't be optimal as compared to a Allison 250
turboprop.

A Crown, QSC or what have you-a Yamaha, or maybe even a stinky Peavey
or Carvin-PA amp will work in your living room. A Bryston or a Hot
House probably would work better. And you still might prefer a good
tube amp like my modified (oh, the sin...)VTLs or the choke-filtered,
regulated screen transmitting tube jobs a friend of mine built around a
pair of super rare UTC Linear Standard outputs. It just depends.
Anonymous
March 20, 2005 9:33:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

<calcerise@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1111346664.609864.183810@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> <calcerise@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1111270256.537442.202530@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com
>>
>> <a technical incompetent who is apparently unable to quote posts
>> spewed on the web>
>
> It just seemed excess bandwidth, is all.
>
>> Hey, I rcognize those pictures - they are known in the sound
>> reinforcement trade as bass bins. So Cal, if power amps for sound
>> reinforcement are such a bad idea, why are you recommending
speakers
>> that are obviously designed for the sound reinforcment trade?

Cal has no answer for this question. It's obviouis why he doesn't want
to quote, because if he quoted, it becomes clear that he's frequently
incapable of defending his positions.


>>> Really inefficient speakers usually lack a certain something
>>> sonically too.

>> Well, they lack efficiency. So, when hooked to one of your
>> hobby-horse penny-whistle low-watt toob amps, they do lack SPL.

> I have never advocated hobby horse penny whistle low watt toob
amps.

Sure you did Cal. You just call them something else that sounds nicer.

> I DO advocate amps that are good sounding at the very low levels
they
> will spend most of their time running at while providing reasonable
> power.

For you Cal, this has historically been specific makes and models
which often turned out to be hobby horse penny whistle low watt toob
amps.

>They can be tube or solid state.

With all the misapprensions you have spewed about solid state, Cal?
GMAB!

>There are some very good solid state amps out there.

Many more of them that the hobby horse penny whistle low watt toob
amps that you've been vigorously advocating, Cal.

> However there are some great tube ones too and
> they are fun to build in many cases.

Yeah, chancing electrocution is fun. Building stuff that is obsolete
before its built is fun. Building things that are inherently
unreliable is fun.

>The solid state ones can be built as well.

They can also be bought in many stores for not a lot of money,
especially if you want serious amounts of power.

> Bill Fitzmaurice's bass bins are suited with some variance of
> construction to domestic and sound reinforcement use.

They are not really good choices for home use. Something about limited
bottom end and vast size.

>Some amplifiers are as well.

I'l agree with that when you starting showing signs of common sense
related to power amps, Cal.

> Some PA amps are adequate and suitable for home use, I
> never said they weren't,

Revisonism and dissembling noted.

> but just as a bass bin built for touring
> sound will be optimized differently than one for home use the same
is
> often true of amps as well.

Cal, lets not return to that thread where I deconstructed just about
everything you said about power amps, its painful for me to remember
how badly your weirdness got trashed.

>Suitable and optimal are two different things. You could build an
airplane with a small block Chevy with
> suitable results (provided it's a blueprinted, four bolt block
forged
> crank marine version) but it won't be optimal as compared to a
> Allison 250 turboprop.

This is an audio forum Cal. Do try to stay on topic.

> A Crown, a Peavey
> or Carvin-PA amp will work in your living room. A Bryston or a Hot
> House probably would work better.

Why would this amp, which meets your description perfectly, be a good
choice for home use Cal?

http://www.hothousepro.com/products/hrs-2000.html

Doesn't that big fan port in the front panel suggest something to you
Cal?


<And you still might prefer a good
> tube amp like my modified (oh, the sin...)VTLs or the
choke-filtered,
> regulated screen transmitting tube jobs a friend of mine built
around
> a pair of super rare UTC Linear Standard outputs. It just depends.

Why would want a 1902 Oldmobile for my daily driver, or its audio
equivalent?
Anonymous
March 22, 2005 1:29:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Steven Sullivan Mar 18, 12:23 pm show options

Newsgroups: rec.audio.tech
From: Steven Sullivan <ssu...@panix.com> - Find messages by this author

Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:23:41 +0000 (UTC)
Local: Fri, Mar 18 2005 12:23 pm
Subject: Re: sunfire true subwoofer - big bass from a tiny box?
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse




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- Show quoted text -

Cyrus <inva...@i.like.spam> wrote:
> In article
<mcmurtri-90EA85.21210117032..­.@corp-radius.supernews.com>,
> Kevin McMurtrie <mcmur...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> > In article <Pml_d.3047$b%7.2...@fe08.lga>­,
> > Ozzy 2005 <ozzy2...@spamlovesyou.com> wrote:

> > > I understand that it's air pressure and that base wavelengths are
20 to
> > > 30 feet. I can grasp a 15" woofer in a 6 cubit foot enclosure
making
> > > bass below 30Hz +/- 3dB in relation to the rest of the system.
BUT even
> > > with high excursion can the bass coming out of a 9" cube compare
to that
> > > of the larger driver in the larger box? Technically something
has to be
> > > missing. Are the transients much worse? What gives? A 9" cube
can
> > > actually make great bass?


> > It can make some bass but with awful efficiency, an uneven
frequency
> > response, and wicked distortion at low frequencies. It's a
limitation
> > caused by the air behind the driver. I have yet to hear a
tolerable
> > consumer subwoofer costing less than several thousand dollars.
That's
> > why I have a home-made sub.
> I strongly concur, the commercially made subs I've been exposed to
and
> enjoyed cost much more than I'm willing/able to shell out.
> I too roll my own.



Where's a website with good plans for a 'roll your own' sub?


There are several starting with www.diyaudio.com
Look for Russ Button's webpage or just do a search for "sonosubs."

There are so many top quality woofers available for the DIY bass
enthusiast, that it almost doesn't mske sense to buy a brand name sub.

The kits plans available at www.adireaudio.com for their Shiva 12"
woofer have been used by many with good results and praised by the
likes of Sigfried Linkwitz and Tom Nousaine. Then there's the Stryke
audio stuff and TC sounds.

If you use Sonotube you can cut down on expense without compromising on
quality and get a small footprint sub that will have an f3 below 20 Hz
without breaking the bank.
Anonymous
March 24, 2005 12:24:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

<calcerise@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1111637233.588283.196960@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
> still learning wrote:
>> calcer...@hotmail.com wrote about the Hot House amp:
>>
>> Better than what?
>>
>> What exactly will it do better than a Behringer EP 2500?

> It will probably reproduce music more pleasingly and correctly than
> the Behringer.

However, given how erroneous Cal's posts are as a rule, its equally
probable that the Hot House amp will either make no difference or be
in some sense inferior. It's already been established that while Cal
sometime treats the entire Hot House amp line like it all sounds the
same and has equal utility, he has also been cornered into admitting
that some amps in the Hot House line have no place in a residential
setting.

So now you have to figure out which of Cal's posts you want to
believe - the ones that give Hot House amps blanket approval and
suggest sonic superiority of *all* of them as compared to a certain
Behringer amp that Cal has no real-world experience with, or the post
Cal made where he admitted that at least some of the Hot House amps
have no place in the home.
Anonymous
March 24, 2005 8:33:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

The Hot House probably sounds better, will last longer, and be easier
to fix than the Behringer. But send me one of each and I will let you
know for sure.
Anonymous
March 25, 2005 12:55:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

<calcerise@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1111714431.108511.198300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com

> The Hot House probably sounds better, will last longer, and be
easier
> to fix than the Behringer. But send me one of each and I will let
you
> know for sure.

Cal, thanks for admitting that you have absolutely any experience with
either amp, and are totally speaking out the back of your neck.
March 25, 2005 4:24:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On 21 Mar 2005 22:29:31 -0800, "still learning"
<deskst49@peoplepc.com> wrote:

>If you use Sonotube you can cut down on expense without compromising on
>quality and get a small footprint sub that will have an f3 below 20 Hz
>without breaking the bank.

What about the HSU subs which are essentially that?
!