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Klipsch Bass Drivers and Mr. Pierce

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Anonymous
a b \ Driver
April 5, 2005 1:42:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

In a post some time ago, Mr. Pierce commented that Paul Klipsch had in his
professional opinion made a wrong turn with the bass driver he seclected
for the 15" driver equiped classic Klipsch line (e.g. Belle Klipsch, la
Scala, and Klipschhorn.) Is there a more suitable driver for the existing
K-Horn or La Scala bass cabinet than the standard one?

I'd be interested to know if Mr. Pierce considers the Klipsch basshorns
hopeless or if he thinks they could be reworked to bring the efficient
horn technology in line with modern standards, and if not, is there in his
estimation any really good way to build a really efficient speaker in this
category.

Any differential discussion of the K-horn and La Scala bass sections (I
understand they're otherwise the same) would be interesting. If one wants
their level of efficiency, the only alternatives of which I am aware are
the VoT Altecs, Mr. Pierce's opinion of which is a well known matter.
Anonymous
a b \ Driver
April 5, 2005 6:31:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

I can only relate some experiements I did 25 years ago with a pair of
EV Centurion enclosures and various 15" bass drivers. I had an EV
15WK (the version of the EV 15W specifically designed for exponential
horns), a JBL D130, and a JBL D130A (the D130 was designed as a "full range"
speaker, which of course it wasn't; the D130A was similar to the D130 but
without the aluminum center dome and according to my memory designed for
exponential bass horn use - my memory is that it replaced the 150-4/4C).

I much preferred the D130A; I wound up using the D130A on one side and
the D130 on the other. Bass performance (above the LF cutoff of the bass
horn, which is fairly high for the rather small Centurion enclosure) was
quite spectacular.

I heard one Klipsch system in the 70's designed and set up by Klipsch
engineers for a person who had worked in the factory in Hope, Arkansas,
as a young man. It had two K-horns and one Cornwall with a three-channel
solid-state McIntosh amplification system. I found it quite irritating
(I've never been a fan of the MF/HF drivers Klipsch used) but the stereo
imaging was about the best I ever heard; the music played for me was a
symphony orchestra and the double bass section stayed put as you moved
around the rather large living room.

If I were building a new bass horn system I'd reproduce a JBL Hartsfield;
that is certainly the opinion of the buyers on eBay. At a minimum I'd go
with the JBL LE85 for the MF/HF driver, if not the 375 itself.

I always wanted to hear the later versions of the EV Patrician, with the 18"
woofer, but I've never seen one.

Mike Squires
--

Mike Squires (mikes at cs.indiana.edu) 317 233 9456 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)
mikes at siralan.org 546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408
Anonymous
a b \ Driver
April 5, 2005 6:31:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

mikes@cs.indiana.edu (Michael Squires) wrote:

>I can only relate some experiements I did 25 years ago with a pair of
>EV Centurion enclosures and various 15" bass drivers. I had an EV
>15WK (the version of the EV 15W specifically designed for exponential
>horns), a JBL D130, and a JBL D130A (the D130 was designed as a "full range"
>speaker, which of course it wasn't; the D130A was similar to the D130 but
>without the aluminum center dome and according to my memory designed for
>exponential bass horn use - my memory is that it replaced the 150-4/4C).

The 130A (there was no "D", since the "D" stood for "Dome") had a pulp
dome and a copper voice coil. It was never a replacement for the
150-4C; the LE-15 eventually replaced the 150-4C in most systems.

>I much preferred the D130A; I wound up using the D130A on one side and
>the D130 on the other. Bass performance (above the LF cutoff of the bass
>horn, which is fairly high for the rather small Centurion enclosure) was
>quite spectacular.
>
>I heard one Klipsch system in the 70's designed and set up by Klipsch
>engineers for a person who had worked in the factory in Hope, Arkansas,
>as a young man. It had two K-horns and one Cornwall with a three-channel
>solid-state McIntosh amplification system. I found it quite irritating
>(I've never been a fan of the MF/HF drivers Klipsch used) but the stereo
>imaging was about the best I ever heard; the music played for me was a
>symphony orchestra and the double bass section stayed put as you moved
>around the rather large living room.
>
>If I were building a new bass horn system I'd reproduce a JBL Hartsfield;
>that is certainly the opinion of the buyers on eBay. At a minimum I'd go
>with the JBL LE85 for the MF/HF driver, if not the 375 itself.

The redesigned "coffin back" Hartsfields were better than Bill
Hartsfield's original design. The LE85 driver went out pretty far,
compared to the 375, which dropped like a rock after about 9kHz. I did
own a pair of Hartsfields (with Lowthers in them) that sounded pretty
nice when driven with a pair of Fairchild 50 watt tube amps.

>I always wanted to hear the later versions of the EV Patrician, with the 18"
>woofer, but I've never seen one.
>
>Mike Squires

It was an imposing piece of work. During that period, I preferred Rudy
Bozak's big stuff; it was certainly among the most musical of the big
systems out there.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/
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Anonymous
a b \ Driver
April 8, 2005 2:08:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

<calcerise@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1112915773.951286.236790@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> It's not original to me. There are a couple of places on the web that
> have some cool Klipsch info:
>
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~wooferboy/The_Audio_Engineerin...
>
> http://www.alkeng.com/klip_hom.html
>
> http://www.alkeng.com/trachorn.html
>

Both directions look cool, I woild like to hear the one with the cone
mids... I think one would do it as the 2123 will play insanely loud and
eliminate group delay from having horzontal mids that far apart, playing
that high and placed at a 45 deg angle in the room. The only thing I would
worry about is the time interaction between a front loaded mid and a folded
woofer.

The top cab design of the K-horn would premit a horn loaded cone, this would
help in effciciency and time domain, one could even incorporate the tweeter
into the "phase plug". At this point you could even use an efficient dome
like a Morel, etc.

Thanks so much for the links!

Chad
Anonymous
a b \ Driver
April 9, 2005 6:21:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Chad Wahls" <cwahls@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:D 366on$uak$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...
> Both directions look cool, I woild like to hear the one with the cone
> mids... I think one would do it as the 2123 will play insanely loud and
> eliminate group delay from having horzontal mids that far apart, playing
> that high and placed at a 45 deg angle in the room. The only thing I
would
> worry about is the time interaction between a front loaded mid and a
folded
> woofer.

Which is where a digital crossover with time compensation cannot be beat.
Personally I can't see why you would do anything else with a horn system
these days.
The 2123 appears to be discontinued though, but the 2012 is similar.
What I would worry about is the frequency performance and dispersion of the
2012 at 2-4kHz. It gets pretty peaky above 2kHz!
Better to make it 4 way, 4 amps, using a 2012 lower mid, and a suitable
compression driver/horn upper mid?
All with digital time compensation of course.

> The top cab design of the K-horn would premit a horn loaded cone, this
would
> help in effciciency and time domain, one could even incorporate the
tweeter
> into the "phase plug".

I suspect the 2123 or 2012 would require a horn too long.

>At this point you could even use an efficient dome
> like a Morel, etc.

Why? I doubt it has anywhere near the same maximum SPL capabilities as the
2404.

MrT.
Anonymous
a b \ Driver
April 9, 2005 8:21:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Mr. T said:

>At this point you could even use an efficient dome
> like a Morel, etc.


Why? I doubt it has anywhere near the same maximum SPL capabilities as
the
2404.

MrT.

An MDT 37 has a sensitivty of 93 dB with 1 watt/meter and handles 200
watts of power, how loud do you need to go?
Anonymous
a b \ Driver
April 10, 2005 1:55:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

still learning wrote:
> Mr. T said:
>
>> At this point you could even use an efficient dome
>> like a Morel, etc.
>
>
> Why? I doubt it has anywhere near the same maximum SPL capabilities
as
> the
> 2404.
>
> MrT.
>
> An MDT 37 has a sensitivty of 93 dB with 1 watt/meter and handles
200
> watts of power, how loud do you need to go?

200 watts is 23 dB over 1 watt. This gives a theoretical acoustical
output of 126 dB at one meter which ain't bad.

However, it's hard to predict if there would be a lot of driver
compression, but there would be at least a few dB of it. The driver
might not be all that linear in this kind of extreme (for it) service.

Having worked with Morel drivers in the past, I also question whether
the driver would last long enough if actually routinely used this way.

In contrast, some compresssion driver/waveguide-horn speakers can
reasonably be expected to last a long time in this kind of duty, and
have reasonable amounts of compression and distortion.
Anonymous
a b \ Driver
April 12, 2005 1:37:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Chad Wahls" <cwahls@uiuc.edu> writes:
> [...]
> Although I tend to use the right side of the volume control
> ocasionally my listening tastes dictate that the morel would
> probably not go into power compression and may sound better to my
> ears.

Why don't the magazines (Stereophile, etc.) measure power compression?
My gut tells me it's a very relevent parameter, being a corner-horn
owner myself.
--
Randy Yates
Sony Ericsson Mobile Communications
Research Triangle Park, NC, USA
randy.yates@sonyericsson.com, 919-472-1124
Anonymous
a b \ Driver
April 12, 2005 4:20:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"still learning" <deskst49@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:1113088863.750067.89370@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> An MDT 37 has a sensitivty of 93 dB with 1 watt/meter and handles 200
> watts of power, how loud do you need to go?

The 200W figure is not continuous, so it's a bit hard to compare.

The JBL2404 does 105 dB 1W/1M and handles 40W continuous for an SPL of 121
dB.
The MDT 37 would blow up long before then.
However why use one in a horn loaded system anyway?

MrT.
!