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Type of things to listen for when judging speakers?

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April 10, 2005 7:03:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would like
some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when judging
speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
speakers.
Can someone suggest any CD's and DVD movies that make good listening
tests.
The last speakers I listened to I used the Echo by Pink Floyd CD using
"Shine on you crazy diamond" and "Comfortable numb".
I also played the DVD Lennon Legend using "Imagine by John Lennon"
and I played the first battle scene in Gladiator.

Hoping for a reply

Regards Brian
Anonymous
April 10, 2005 7:03:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Brian" emitted :

>I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would like
>some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when judging
>speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
>but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
>speakers.

Not really. You will encounter gross variation in sonic character
between speaker brands and even models. By listening to music you are
familiar with you should find it easier to reach a conclusion.

Hopefully one of the speakers you audition will "leap out" at you as
something you would love to own and listen to on a daily basis - but
be aware that the acoustics of the listening room play a major role
and that ideally you will demo your choice at home before parting with
your money.

S i g n a l @ l i n e o n e . n e t
--------------------------------------------------
How dare you assume I want to parlez-vous with you
Anonymous
April 10, 2005 7:03:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

It depends on your goals in wanting to buy the speakers. I tend to
like purist recordings of male and female vocalists, jazz bands (but
avoid the done-to-death "Jazz at the Pawnshop") and other things that
have a real sound, but the key is to be able to relate that to what the
actual thing is supposed to sound like. classical music buffs have a
big advantage if they go to concerts often enough to have their ears in
cal.

If fidelity is your goal, it's important to have some recordings that
are bad, so the badness can be determined to be maintained. If bad
recordings sound good, you have speakers that are lying their ass off.
Many expensive brands popular at audio saloons are very dishonest that
way.

If you live in a town with serious recording facilities, talk, wheedle
or blow (just kidding!) your way into having a couple of short
selections played over their monitors. One good, one stinky.
Related resources
Anonymous
April 10, 2005 7:03:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Brian said:

> I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would like
> some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when judging
> speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
> but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
> speakers.

This is the clue that you may not be an audiophile.
Anonymous
April 10, 2005 7:03:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Brian wrote:
> I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would
like
> some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when
judging
> speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
> but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
> speakers.

When you're comparing audio gear, you probably want to use some
recordings that are helpful in a diagnostic sense. They might include
recordings that you often find a little irritating, but that can sound
good under ideal conditions. It's OK to use recording that tend to
sound good to you as well, after all you don't want to buy speakers
that make your favorite recordings sound like trash.

> Can someone suggest any CD's and DVD movies that make good listening
> tests.

I think your taste in music has something to do with this. I don't
agree with people who say that only certain musical genres are
acceptable for checking out speakers. OTOH, I don't think you want to
restrict your evaluation suite to just highly-compressed heavy metal
rock.

> The last speakers I listened to I used the Echo by Pink Floyd CD
using
> "Shine on you crazy diamond" and "Comfortable numb".
> I also played the DVD Lennon Legend using "Imagine by John Lennon"
> and I played the first battle scene in Gladiator.

You could do far worse.

One other thing - the listening room profoundly affects the sound of
speakers. If you can figure out how to do your speaker evaluations in
your listening room then please do so.
Anonymous
April 10, 2005 7:03:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

There is not much you can do in the typical store that will judge
speakers in any useful fashion. That's because most store don't have the
speakers set at the same volume or located in equivalent acoustic spots
regards room interaction.

Further unless a speaker is a disaster, you won't be able to compare any
recordings played on it against the same recording played in your home.
It is just not possible to remember sound qualities for any length of time.

One way to pick out very different speakers (and therefore probably bad)
would be to play pink or white noise (or FM inter-station hiss) over
them. Switch back and forth between speakers and listen for tonal
differences in the hiss. Another good choice would be a recording of a
solo voice with little or no instrumentation.

If you are very very lucky, you may find a store that will loan a set of
speakers for home trial and extended listening. Don't count on it!

Brian wrote:
> I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would like
> some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when judging
> speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
> but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
> speakers.
> Can someone suggest any CD's and DVD movies that make good listening
> tests.
> The last speakers I listened to I used the Echo by Pink Floyd CD using
> "Shine on you crazy diamond" and "Comfortable numb".
> I also played the DVD Lennon Legend using "Imagine by John Lennon"
> and I played the first battle scene in Gladiator.
>
> Hoping for a reply
>
> Regards Brian
>
Anonymous
April 10, 2005 7:03:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Geoff Wood wrote:
> <Theporkygeorge@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> > What speakers actually sound *good* on *bad* recortdings? This
would be
> > at best a rare thing.
>
> A bad recording may have particularly offensive frequwny prominience
that a
> poor spreaker may fail to reproduce, but pass others. In which case
that
> one particular recording may sound better...
>
>
> geoff

That wouldn't be a rare thing?


Scott Wheeler
Anonymous
April 10, 2005 7:03:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

calcerise wrote ...
> If fidelity is your goal, it's important to have some
> recordings that are bad, so the badness can be determined
> to be maintained. If bad recordings sound good, you have
> speakers that are lying their ass off. Many expensive brands
> popular at audio saloons are very dishonest that way.

If one were selecting speakers for a studio, I would agree
100% with that statement. However if I were advising
someone on buying speakers for their home, maybe "lying
their ass off" is a good thing? (Assuming that they do a
good job on good recordings, too of course.)
Anonymous
April 10, 2005 7:36:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

George M. Middius wrote:

>
> Brian said:
>
>
>>I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would like
>>some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when judging
>>speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
>>but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
>>speakers.
>
>
> This is the clue that you may not be an audiophile.

It also may be a clue that he's not a Borg or a Kreugerite.
Anonymous
April 10, 2005 8:12:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Have your ears been conditioned and educated over the years to appreciating,
and judging, very good quality reproduced sound by cringeing at anything
even
fractionally sub-standard? This is half the battle. It builds you up to
select only the best end-transducers. This is not snobbery, but valuable
sensory vetting.
When some pair you are experiencing elsewhere sounds lucid,
natural and uncoloured on source material (good and bad) and via a chain
that you are already familiar
with, that is the deciding Eureka moment. (Quality and transparency, not
costs)
But, remember, your own listening-room acoustics will play some part in your
acceptance.

"Brian" <bclark@es.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1s5h5152po57hmqb57veflb3qpio86ts6n@4ax.com...
>I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would like
> some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when judging
> speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
> but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
> speakers.
> Can someone suggest any CD's and DVD movies that make good listening
> tests.
> The last speakers I listened to I used the Echo by Pink Floyd CD using
> "Shine on you crazy diamond" and "Comfortable numb".
> I also played the DVD Lennon Legend using "Imagine by John Lennon"
> and I played the first battle scene in Gladiator.
>
> Hoping for a reply
>
> Regards Brian
>
Anonymous
April 10, 2005 8:16:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:36:46 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
<josephoberlander@earthlink.net> wrote:

>George M. Middius wrote:
>
>> Brian said:
>>
>>>I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would like
>>>some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when judging
>>>speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
>>>but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
>>>speakers.
>>
>> This is the clue that you may not be an audiophile.
>
>It also may be a clue that he's not a Borg or a Kreugerite.

No, the Borg understand that speakers differ.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
Anonymous
April 10, 2005 8:16:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Pukey said:

> >> This is the clue that you may not be an audiophile.
> >
> >It also may be a clue that he's not a Borg or a Kreugerite.
>
> No, the Borg understand that speakers differ.

Apparently you're into self-delusion. Or, as your hero Arnii Krooger would
say: Thanks for admitting Mr. Pniketron that your a bigger borg than all,
of us, together Mr. Painkretone. LOL!
Anonymous
April 10, 2005 8:21:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Arny Krueger wrote:

> Brian wrote:
>
>>I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would
>
> like
>
>>some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when
>
> judging
>
>>speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
>>but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
>>speakers.
>
>
> When you're comparing audio gear, you probably want to use some
> recordings that are helpful in a diagnostic sense. They might include
> recordings that you often find a little irritating, but that can sound
> good under ideal conditions. It's OK to use recording that tend to
> sound good to you as well, after all you don't want to buy speakers
> that make your favorite recordings sound like trash.
>
>
>>Can someone suggest any CD's and DVD movies that make good listening
>>tests.
>
>
> I think your taste in music has something to do with this. I don't
> agree with people who say that only certain musical genres are
> acceptable for checking out speakers. OTOH, I don't think you want to
> restrict your evaluation suite to just highly-compressed heavy metal
> rock.

OTOH, at least one piece should be vocal only. If the speaker
can't reproduce a female voice accurately, it just failed a
basic litmus test and should be avoided.

One should also be something like Jazz - and not the typical
high/low demo every dealer has, but sometihng that has parts and
a very tight midrange. Can you pick out the individual players
and/or focus on just one? Can you hear it all together coherently?
How far back can you stand before it starts to blur together
(the boombox/clock radio effect - it just sounds like a single
sound source that's "there" making noise)? 0 feet? 20 feet? 50?

One also should be something you are familiar with, of course.
I like pieces that stress dynamics. A good example is the organ
symphony by Saint Saens or Carmina Burana - it has quiet parts
and intricate backgrounds with loud in-you-face dynamics overlapping.
Truly great speakers will do it all, while most will have some
obvious defect or be clear wich pecking order they are in at the
store. Then it's your choice to decide what compromises you can
live with within your budget. All speakers have problems and defects,
afterall - so we all make compromises. :) 

That said, what's the budget? Some brands are easier to
weed out or recommend as a starting point as they offer good
sound at a decent price-point. In my case, I like JBL Pro,
but they're ugly and large. My father likes Tannoy. My
professor from college loves his Kef speakers. My best
friend likes somethiing else...
Anonymous
April 10, 2005 8:35:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 07:01:42 -0700, "Richard Crowley"
<rcrowley7@xprt.net> wrote:

>calcerise wrote ...
>> If fidelity is your goal, it's important to have some
>> recordings that are bad, so the badness can be determined
>> to be maintained. If bad recordings sound good, you have
>> speakers that are lying their ass off. Many expensive brands
>> popular at audio saloons are very dishonest that way.
>
>If one were selecting speakers for a studio, I would agree
>100% with that statement. However if I were advising
>someone on buying speakers for their home, maybe "lying
>their ass off" is a good thing? (Assuming that they do a
>good job on good recordings, too of course.)

That's the problem. Speakers that sound good on bad recordings, will
not sound great on a great recording. Depends if you want a stunning
musical experience, or easy listening..............

Note that, out in the real world, you're not guaranteed a great
performance every time you go to a concert! :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
Anonymous
April 11, 2005 12:21:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Brian a écrit :
> I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would like
> some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when judging
> speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
> but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
> speakers.
> Can someone suggest any CD's and DVD movies that make good listening
> tests.
> The last speakers I listened to I used the Echo by Pink Floyd CD using
> "Shine on you crazy diamond" and "Comfortable numb".
> I also played the DVD Lennon Legend using "Imagine by John Lennon"
> and I played the first battle scene in Gladiator.
>
> Hoping for a reply
>


The good restitution of a drums solo with clarty, precision
(in time and tone) and the necessary impact and pressure is
a very difficult exercise for the speakers.
Anonymous
April 11, 2005 12:09:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

<Theporkygeorge@aol.com> wrote in message

> What speakers actually sound *good* on *bad* recortdings? This would be
> at best a rare thing.

A bad recording may have particularly offensive frequwny prominience that a
poor spreaker may fail to reproduce, but pass others. In which case that
one particular recording may sound better...


geoff
Anonymous
April 11, 2005 12:11:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Brian, trhere's a set of KEF 103.2 speakers on TradeMe at the moment ...


geoff
Anonymous
April 11, 2005 12:59:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

In <1s5h5152po57hmqb57veflb3qpio86ts6n@4ax.com>, on 04/10/05
at 03:03 PM, Brian <bclark@es.co.nz> said:

>I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would like
>some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when judging
>speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
>but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
>speakers.
>Can someone suggest any CD's and DVD movies that make good listening
>tests.
>The last speakers I listened to I used the Echo by Pink Floyd CD using
>"Shine on you crazy diamond" and "Comfortable numb".
>I also played the DVD Lennon Legend using "Imagine by John Lennon" and
>I played the first battle scene in Gladiator.

This sort of question always results in "flames". Some of us who hang
out here were born old, wiser than anyone else, and cranky.

Audio is a journey. Everyone travels at their own pace and we all end
up at different destinations. My destination is just as good as yours,
yours is as good as mine. If you don't like your current location, a
more experienced traveler can be your guide -- but don't let the guide
take you to a place you don't want to be or convince you that there is
only one destination.

Listen to your regular music. It makes no sense to demo with ... (fill
in your least favorite type of music) if you never listen to it at
home. For some reason some customers assume that I listen to certain
types of music and either to flatter me or, assuming that I somehow
know what the "best" music is, they want to listen to my music.

Keep things simple. Travel with a few of your CD's and start with them.
Three CD's is a good number. Pick something simple that emphasizes your
favorite instrument. Next listen to something a little more complex, a
vocal is excellent if you listen to them. Finally, try something
complex, with a lot of instruments. The first two CD's will give you a
sense of the speakers' accuracy -- for you. The last will give you a
sense of what happens when everybody is in there slugging it out. If
the salesperson is any good, he or she may suggest something from the
store's collection that will help illustrate a point.

Spend some time with the prospective speaker. No matter what happened
with your three CD assault, if you are mysteriously tired of the
speaker after half an hour, move on to something else. You'll be able
to listen to the "right" speaker for hours.

Use common sense when picking your music. If subtile detail is your
thing, listening to Beatles stuff recorded just after they discovered
fuzz and distortion, is not productive.

Pay attention to what you hear at friends' homes. Take down brand names
and model numbers. What did you like and what did you not like? Is
there a common thread? (too much bass, not enough bass, no detail, too
much detail, a certain brand, etc.)

Typically, bass is more important to younger, male listeners than to
other groups. The transition begins in the early 20's. Keep in mind
that this is only "typical", your milage may vary. There are plenty of
middle aged female fans out there that can show their sons a thing or
two about thump. If you are a young male and bass is important, don't
let some ancient crumbum convince you that you shouldn't have bass. It
cuts the other way too. If you are a bit older and bass isn't quite as
important this time around, you are normal -- don't let some young
bull, sell you the thump he envies.

In spite of what the salesperson would like, don't buy too soon. While
it might be initially confusing, you'll quickly learn how to listen.
Everyone has their own "listening window". For some the window is open
for a half hour or so, then it's time to take a walk because you'll
become fatigued and everything will start to sound the same. The next
time out, you'll be smarter and things will go better and faster. Some
people can listen for hours. (and never seem to purchase anything)

Some sales people make excellent guides, others want to pick your
pocket as fast as possible. It is relatively easy to separate the two.
The guide will ask you which speaker sounds best, the pickpocket or
egocentric will tell you which sounds best.

Taking an "expert" friend along may help ... sometimes. In my
experience it can go either way. In some situations the actual customer
is too shy to speak to me and I have to communicate through the expert.
Other times the expert is steering the friend to the speakers the
expert envies, but are not appropriate for the customer. I this is
true, hopefully, I can earn the trust of the customer and they will
ditch the expert and come back later. In rare cases the expert friend
is actually helpful.

Rooms are also in the equation. The room is part of the speaker, the
speaker is part of the room. The showroom will never sound exactly the
same as your room (and the speaker will sound different if you move it
to a another location in your own room). If you have the option, pick a
dealer who has rooms that are not specially treated (unless you intend
to treat your room). It's hard to judge a speaker in some cavernous
hifi supermarket.

Done properly, with the right guide, you'll buy the right speaker even
though it will sound different in your own room. Tell the guide about
your room. If the guide has no comments about your room, pick a new
guide.

Taking a speaker home for a trial is helpful if you are down to two
models and can't decide which is right for you. If you want to try them
all, be prepared for a multi-year journey. There are hundreds of
companies, many with tens of models.

-----------------------------------------------------------
spam: uce@ftc.gov
wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13> (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
April 11, 2005 2:49:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

<Theporkygeorge@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1113164411.573541.176820@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Geoff Wood wrote:
>> <Theporkygeorge@aol.com> wrote in message
>>
>> > What speakers actually sound *good* on *bad* recortdings? This
> would be
>> > at best a rare thing.
>>
>> A bad recording may have particularly offensive frequwny prominience
> that a
>> poor spreaker may fail to reproduce, but pass others. In which case
> that
>> one particular recording may sound better...
>>
>>
>> geoff
>
> That wouldn't be a rare thing?

yes

geoff
April 12, 2005 2:32:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Geoff Wood" <geoff@nospam-paf.co.nz> wrote:

>Brian, trhere's a set of KEF 103.2 speakers on TradeMe at the moment ...
>
>
>geoff
>
Thanks Geoff, but I own a pair of book shelf Kef C25 speakers at the
moment. I brought them about 15 years ago.
Do you know where these fit in in the range of KEF speakers?
Are the budget, medium quality or high quality speakers?
I wish I knew the frwequency response of these speakers as they seem
to fail with the very high piched notes.

Regards Brian
April 12, 2005 2:42:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Thanks Joseph for your comments.
See below for my reply.


Joseph Oberlander <josephoberlander@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>OTOH, at least one piece should be vocal only. If the speaker
>can't reproduce a female voice accurately, it just failed a
>basic litmus test and should be avoided.

What is the litmus test?
>
>One should also be something like Jazz - and not the typical
>high/low demo every dealer has, but sometihng that has parts and
>a very tight midrange. Can you pick out the individual players
>and/or focus on just one?
Do you mean speaker imaging where you can point to the place where the
singer appears to be?

> Can you hear it all together coherently?
>How far back can you stand before it starts to blur together
>(the boombox/clock radio effect - it just sounds like a single
>sound source that's "there" making noise)? 0 feet? 20 feet? 50?

So the you can move back from the speakers and hear them without a
blur the better the speakers are?
I only have a small room for the speakers.
>
>One also should be something you are familiar with, of course.
>I like pieces that stress dynamics. A good example is the organ
>symphony by Saint Saens or Carmina Burana - it has quiet parts
>and intricate backgrounds with loud in-you-face dynamics overlapping.
>Truly great speakers will do it all, while most will have some
>obvious defect or be clear wich pecking order they are in at the
>store. Then it's your choice to decide what compromises you can
>live with within your budget. All speakers have problems and defects,
>afterall - so we all make compromises. :) 
>
>That said, what's the budget? Some brands are easier to
>weed out or recommend as a starting point as they offer good
>sound at a decent price-point. In my case, I like JBL Pro,
>but they're ugly and large. My father likes Tannoy. My
>professor from college loves his Kef speakers. My best
>friend likes somethiing else...

I have Kef speakers (C25 model) that I brought about 15 years
ago...I'm wondering if Kef have improved on their speakers since.

Regards Brian
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 2:42:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Brian wrote:

> I have Kef speakers (C25 model) that I brought about 15 years
> ago...I'm wondering if Kef have improved on their speakers since.

If not KEF, someone else.

BTW, I have a pair of KEF Q15s that I use for PC speakers.
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 3:15:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Brian" <bclark@es.co.nz> wrote in message
news:bckk51d1eqjc1gffm2c61qhufbdq1ui132@4ax.com...
> "Geoff Wood" <geoff@nospam-paf.co.nz> wrote:
>
>>Brian, trhere's a set of KEF 103.2 speakers on TradeMe at the moment ...
>>
>>
>>geoff
>>
> Thanks Geoff, but I own a pair of book shelf Kef C25 speakers at the
> moment. I brought them about 15 years ago.
> Do you know where these fit in in the range of KEF speakers?
> Are the budget, medium quality or high quality speakers?
> I wish I knew the frwequency response of these speakers as they seem
> to fail with the very high piched notes.

Fail ? If you are noticing a dropout in 'notes' (as opposed to harmonics),
then it sounds like something is broken in the crossover

The 103.2s are the 'reference series' and could be considered
high-to-very-high, but not extreme quality. I think he wants around NZ$3500
.. I that's at all in your league, look up some reviews on the net, and try
to arrange an audition.

geoff
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 3:17:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Brian" <bclark@es.co.nz> wrote in message
>
> I have Kef speakers (C25 model) that I brought about 15 years
> ago...I'm wondering if Kef have improved on their speakers since.

As before, they may be broken. But KEF (as do other manufacturers) have
economy ranges as well as premium.

geoff
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 9:13:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Brian wrote:

> Thanks Joseph for your comments.
> See below for my reply.
>
>
> Joseph Oberlander <josephoberlander@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>OTOH, at least one piece should be vocal only. If the speaker
>>can't reproduce a female voice accurately, it just failed a
>>basic litmus test and should be avoided.
>
>
> What is the litmus test?

Music was created at first by nature and our voices. Instruments
came much later, other than drums. That said, almost all music
has in it or tries to imitate various aspects of the human voice.

If the speaker cannot reproduce the human voice accurately,
you should move on to something different that can.

Now, I suppose if you listen to Cage or purely Indian Ragas,
then maybe it's not a big consideration, but most pieces have
vocal parts in them or are voiced in that range, because that's
also not coincidentally, where music sounds most pleasing to
our ears.

>>One should also be something like Jazz - and not the typical
>>high/low demo every dealer has, but sometihng that has parts and
>>a very tight midrange. Can you pick out the individual players
>>and/or focus on just one?
>
> Do you mean speaker imaging where you can point to the place where the
> singer appears to be?

No, literally pick out the singers or musicians. Can you
tune out the bass player and listen to the rhythm guitarist
alone? Can you do the reverse? Most cheap speakers smear the
sound together too much in the midrange to easily be able to
replay a piece several times and go over it/analyze it.

The easier a speaker does this, I find, that the less it
ends up being fatiguing. Ususally they image a bit better, too.

Now, you don't have to spend huge sums to pass these basic
levels of clarity and quality. My "smaller"(heh) speakers cost
a whopping $300 each and are huge studio monitors. Versions
that sound nearly as good in a bookshelf sized package can
be had for about $300-$400 a pair, new.

>>Can you hear it all together coherently?
>>How far back can you stand before it starts to blur together
>>(the boombox/clock radio effect - it just sounds like a single
>>sound source that's "there" making noise)? 0 feet? 20 feet? 50?
>
> So the you can move back from the speakers and hear them without a
> blur the better the speakers are?
> I only have a small room for the speakers.

Heh - well, the point still is valid, though in your case,
that's good as it means you can get by with smaller speakers
as a rule. 5-7 inch woofers should easily suffice.

> I have Kef speakers (C25 model) that I brought about 15 years
> ago...I'm wondering if Kef have improved on their speakers since.

Ah. In some ways, yes(their expensive stuff), and in others,
not really(their consumer level junk). Tannoy also went the
cheaper and high end route(as did Toyota and Honda), which
still is a better thing in the end, IMO, as you do get a lot
of Q.C. and expertiese from their decades of higher end
products that filters down to their more reasonably priced
products. But only to a point.

What's the budget and listening enviironment? For purely
stereo, on a budget, I like a few smaller firms myself as
I feel that it's like buying a guitar - all of the stuff
that's made in Korea and China is pretty much adequate
stuff at best compared to a U.S. or European guitar, so
many small firms do better jobs at the low end than
a big company that's charging you for its name as if the
speakers are even close to the level of their real high
end products.(Toyota and Honda also do this lately - sigh)

At the Circuit City end of the scale, you could make
a better speaker from a kit.

My favorites for good sound on a budget are Ellis Audio,
NoRh, Ascend Acoustics, and of course, used.
April 13, 2005 3:57:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

zzzz@zzzz.zzz (Barry Mann) wrote:

>In <1s5h5152po57hmqb57veflb3qpio86ts6n@4ax.com>, on 04/10/05
> at 03:03 PM, Brian <bclark@es.co.nz> said:
>
>>I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would like
>>some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when judging
>>speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
>>but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
>>speakers.
>>Can someone suggest any CD's and DVD movies that make good listening
>>tests.
>>The last speakers I listened to I used the Echo by Pink Floyd CD using
>>"Shine on you crazy diamond" and "Comfortable numb".
>>I also played the DVD Lennon Legend using "Imagine by John Lennon" and
>>I played the first battle scene in Gladiator.
>
>This sort of question always results in "flames". Some of us who hang
>out here were born old, wiser than anyone else, and cranky.
>
>Audio is a journey. Everyone travels at their own pace and we all end
>up at different destinations. My destination is just as good as yours,
>yours is as good as mine. If you don't like your current location, a
>more experienced traveler can be your guide -- but don't let the guide
>take you to a place you don't want to be or convince you that there is
>only one destination.
>
>Listen to your regular music. It makes no sense to demo with ... (fill
>in your least favorite type of music) if you never listen to it at
>home. For some reason some customers assume that I listen to certain
>types of music and either to flatter me or, assuming that I somehow
>know what the "best" music is, they want to listen to my music.
>
>Keep things simple. Travel with a few of your CD's and start with them.
>Three CD's is a good number. Pick something simple that emphasizes your
>favorite instrument. Next listen to something a little more complex, a
>vocal is excellent if you listen to them. Finally, try something
>complex, with a lot of instruments. The first two CD's will give you a
>sense of the speakers' accuracy -- for you. The last will give you a
>sense of what happens when everybody is in there slugging it out. If
>the salesperson is any good, he or she may suggest something from the
>store's collection that will help illustrate a point.
>
>Spend some time with the prospective speaker. No matter what happened
>with your three CD assault, if you are mysteriously tired of the
>speaker after half an hour, move on to something else. You'll be able
>to listen to the "right" speaker for hours.
>
>Use common sense when picking your music. If subtile detail is your
>thing, listening to Beatles stuff recorded just after they discovered
>fuzz and distortion, is not productive.
>
>Pay attention to what you hear at friends' homes. Take down brand names
>and model numbers. What did you like and what did you not like? Is
>there a common thread? (too much bass, not enough bass, no detail, too
>much detail, a certain brand, etc.)
>
>Typically, bass is more important to younger, male listeners than to
>other groups. The transition begins in the early 20's. Keep in mind
>that this is only "typical", your milage may vary. There are plenty of
>middle aged female fans out there that can show their sons a thing or
>two about thump. If you are a young male and bass is important, don't
>let some ancient crumbum convince you that you shouldn't have bass. It
>cuts the other way too. If you are a bit older and bass isn't quite as
>important this time around, you are normal -- don't let some young
>bull, sell you the thump he envies.
>
>In spite of what the salesperson would like, don't buy too soon. While
>it might be initially confusing, you'll quickly learn how to listen.
>Everyone has their own "listening window". For some the window is open
>for a half hour or so, then it's time to take a walk because you'll
>become fatigued and everything will start to sound the same. The next
>time out, you'll be smarter and things will go better and faster. Some
>people can listen for hours. (and never seem to purchase anything)
>
>Some sales people make excellent guides, others want to pick your
>pocket as fast as possible. It is relatively easy to separate the two.
>The guide will ask you which speaker sounds best, the pickpocket or
>egocentric will tell you which sounds best.
>
>Taking an "expert" friend along may help ... sometimes. In my
>experience it can go either way. In some situations the actual customer
>is too shy to speak to me and I have to communicate through the expert.
>Other times the expert is steering the friend to the speakers the
>expert envies, but are not appropriate for the customer. I this is
>true, hopefully, I can earn the trust of the customer and they will
>ditch the expert and come back later. In rare cases the expert friend
>is actually helpful.
>
>Rooms are also in the equation. The room is part of the speaker, the
>speaker is part of the room. The showroom will never sound exactly the
>same as your room (and the speaker will sound different if you move it
>to a another location in your own room). If you have the option, pick a
>dealer who has rooms that are not specially treated (unless you intend
>to treat your room). It's hard to judge a speaker in some cavernous
>hifi supermarket.
>
>Done properly, with the right guide, you'll buy the right speaker even
>though it will sound different in your own room. Tell the guide about
>your room. If the guide has no comments about your room, pick a new
>guide.
>
>Taking a speaker home for a trial is helpful if you are down to two
>models and can't decide which is right for you. If you want to try them
>all, be prepared for a multi-year journey. There are hundreds of
>companies, many with tens of models.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>spam: uce@ftc.gov
>wordgame:123(abc):<14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
>13> (Barry Mann)
>[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
>-----------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your advice Barry.
I have a feeling that some speakers are more suitable for Rock music
and other speakers are suitable for Classical music, etc. It would be
nice if the manufactures put a label on their speakers as it what they
are suitable for.
I'm trying to get away from speakers that are too bright and falsely
colour music, these type of speakers seem to be suitable for listening
to for short periods. I'm hoping to give more life to my old CD's by
finding speakers that will faithfully place the CD's as they were
meant to be heard.

Regards Brian
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 3:57:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

In rec.audio.tech Brian <bclark@es.co.nz> wrote:

(Barry's excellent advice snipped)

> Thanks for your advice Barry.
> I have a feeling that some speakers are more suitable for Rock music
> and other speakers are suitable for Classical music, etc. It would be
> nice if the manufactures put a label on their speakers as it what they
> are suitable for.
> I'm trying to get away from speakers that are too bright and falsely
> colour music, these type of speakers seem to be suitable for listening
> to for short periods. I'm hoping to give more life to my old CD's by
> finding speakers that will faithfully place the CD's as they were
> meant to be heard.

A few things I'd like to add here. Good speakers shouldn't be oriented for
classical or rock or smooth jazz. Good speakers should sound good, period.
That said, the compromises that have to be made in the real world may
favour one or the other. Recently I listened to some Meadowlarks with great
anticipation, and found myself disappointed. They sounded really startling
with vocals and small group jazz, but had _no_ bass at all! They wouldn't
be acceptable at any price without a subwoofer, in my opinion. Others though,
love them for their clarity and openness. Maybe if all you listen to is
Jazz at the Pawnshop...

Barry talked about picking music you're familiar with. More to the point,
pick recordings that you're familiar with (or take your favorite albums,
and become familiar with the recording). Get to know what a particular track
does really well, or has a hard time with. Figure out what parts are
challenging for a speaker to get right. Here are some examples from my own
listening routine.

1) So What? from Miles Davis "Kind of Blue" (the new remastered recording)
The pacing and recording of this album is so perfect that I sit
on the edge of my chair, waiting for Miles' horn to come in. If I
notice the speakers at all, then there's something wrong with them.
The string bass in the intro is particularly revealing--on good
speakers, it sounds exactly like a bass being played in front of
you, just off to the side. On many speakers, it's a little dull,
thuddy, or thin.
2) Get out of Town, from Holly Cole's "It Happened One Night"
Shiveringly good close-miked vocals, and again that revealing bass.
This will really highlight clarity, transparency and imaging. If
you close your eyes, you should be able to pinpoint every instrument
on stage.
3) The first song on The Mavens first album, which I don't have handy at
the moment.
Because my speakers have got to ROCK! :-) The chorus of this song
starts with an electronic bass, a kick drum, and a Chapman stick
punching the bottom end. If there are any flaws in the bass, (either
insufficient or boomy), this will reveal them in three notes.
4) A coupla tracks off of Jennifer Warne's "The Hunter."
This is a pure audiophile recording, and has everything going on
at the same time. Deep, clear, extended bass; delicate and close
vocals, and just lotsa warmth. It's very easy though, for it all
to get bunched up and muddy in the midrange. "Way Down Deep" is
particularly good.
5) The third (fourth?) track on Horace X's "Burst Peacock."
Hard driving relentless techno/acoustic celtic insanity. On good
speakers you can (a) pick out all of the various instruments (lead
violin, clarinet, lowland pipes) from the sequencer and electronic
drums; and (b) listen for more than five minutes without your ears
hurting. This is a VERY fatiguing album on many speakers.

So the exact music above isn't crucial (although I would recommend it all
to anyone interested), but the stuff it reveals is. That's what you need to
go into a store with.

Oh yeah, and don't even think of burning a CD from MP3s. Stick to the
original material.

Colin
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 3:57:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

> I'm trying to get away from speakers that are too bright and falsely
> colour music, these type of speakers seem to be suitable for listening
> to for short periods. I'm hoping to give more life to my old CD's by
> finding speakers that will faithfully place the CD's as they were
> meant to be heard.

I was also impressed with the Tannoy Saturns(note - their S6
towers are virtually identical to their S8s in sound), though
they stopped making them a while back. The bookshelf versions
of these sound great, but have to be driven to about 90db to
actually sound like that, which may be a bit much for a small
listening space. The towers are much more forgiving, and have
the "stand" built in. :) 

Me - I have JBL 4400 series monitors. Not a subtle speaker
decor-wise - a big box that makes good sound. I'm probably
going to switch to planars in a year or two, though, as
the things aren't that great on microdynamics.

Of course, if you have a chunk of money, you could also
look into planar and hybrid electrostatic speakers. Martin
Logan makes a nice hybrid planar speaker now that's quite
decent sounding, for instance.
Anonymous
April 13, 2005 12:57:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Brian" <bclark@es.co.nz> wrote in message

> Thanks for your advice Barry.
> I have a feeling that some speakers are more suitable for Rock music
> and other speakers are suitable for Classical music, etc. It would be
> nice if the manufactures put a label on their speakers as it what they
> are suitable for.

Brian,

You remain wrong on this. Some speakers may be more suitable for pop, or
C+W, or whatever *listeners* because of unsophisticated appreciation of
what good sound is, but great speaker reproduces optimally what is on the
source media, irrespective of genre.

geoff
April 14, 2005 4:00:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Colin B." <cbigam@somewhereelse.nucleus.com> wrote:

>In rec.audio.tech Brian <bclark@es.co.nz> wrote:
>
>(Barry's excellent advice snipped)
>
>> Thanks for your advice Barry.
>> I have a feeling that some speakers are more suitable for Rock music
>> and other speakers are suitable for Classical music, etc. It would be
>> nice if the manufactures put a label on their speakers as it what they
>> are suitable for.
>> I'm trying to get away from speakers that are too bright and falsely
>> colour music, these type of speakers seem to be suitable for listening
>> to for short periods. I'm hoping to give more life to my old CD's by
>> finding speakers that will faithfully place the CD's as they were
>> meant to be heard.
>
>A few things I'd like to add here. Good speakers shouldn't be oriented for
>classical or rock or smooth jazz. Good speakers should sound good, period.
>That said, the compromises that have to be made in the real world may
>favour one or the other. Recently I listened to some Meadowlarks with great
>anticipation, and found myself disappointed. They sounded really startling
>with vocals and small group jazz, but had _no_ bass at all! They wouldn't
>be acceptable at any price without a subwoofer, in my opinion. Others though,
>love them for their clarity and openness. Maybe if all you listen to is
>Jazz at the Pawnshop...
>
>Barry talked about picking music you're familiar with. More to the point,
>pick recordings that you're familiar with (or take your favorite albums,
>and become familiar with the recording). Get to know what a particular track
>does really well, or has a hard time with. Figure out what parts are
>challenging for a speaker to get right. Here are some examples from my own
>listening routine.
>
>1) So What? from Miles Davis "Kind of Blue" (the new remastered recording)
> The pacing and recording of this album is so perfect that I sit
> on the edge of my chair, waiting for Miles' horn to come in. If I
> notice the speakers at all, then there's something wrong with them.
> The string bass in the intro is particularly revealing--on good
> speakers, it sounds exactly like a bass being played in front of
> you, just off to the side. On many speakers, it's a little dull,
> thuddy, or thin.
>2) Get out of Town, from Holly Cole's "It Happened One Night"
> Shiveringly good close-miked vocals, and again that revealing bass.
> This will really highlight clarity, transparency and imaging. If
> you close your eyes, you should be able to pinpoint every instrument
> on stage.
>3) The first song on The Mavens first album, which I don't have handy at
>the moment.
> Because my speakers have got to ROCK! :-) The chorus of this song
> starts with an electronic bass, a kick drum, and a Chapman stick
> punching the bottom end. If there are any flaws in the bass, (either
> insufficient or boomy), this will reveal them in three notes.
>4) A coupla tracks off of Jennifer Warne's "The Hunter."
> This is a pure audiophile recording, and has everything going on
> at the same time. Deep, clear, extended bass; delicate and close
> vocals, and just lotsa warmth. It's very easy though, for it all
> to get bunched up and muddy in the midrange. "Way Down Deep" is
> particularly good.
>5) The third (fourth?) track on Horace X's "Burst Peacock."
> Hard driving relentless techno/acoustic celtic insanity. On good
> speakers you can (a) pick out all of the various instruments (lead
> violin, clarinet, lowland pipes) from the sequencer and electronic
> drums; and (b) listen for more than five minutes without your ears
> hurting. This is a VERY fatiguing album on many speakers.
>
>So the exact music above isn't crucial (although I would recommend it all
>to anyone interested), but the stuff it reveals is. That's what you need to
>go into a store with.
>
>Oh yeah, and don't even think of burning a CD from MP3s. Stick to the
>original material.
>
>Colin

Thanks Colin.
It's interesting to read what you listen for in your selections of
music. Out of interest have you found any speakers that are acceptable
for the things you listen for?

Regards Brian
Anonymous
May 8, 2005 1:18:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

> Brian,
>
> You remain wrong on this. Some speakers may be more suitable for pop, or
> C+W, or whatever *listeners* because of unsophisticated appreciation of
> what good sound is, but great speaker reproduces optimally what is on the
> source media, irrespective of genre.
>
> geoff
>


Quite true. Any speaker that can reproduce the entire audio spectrum
is going to work with all types of music. Your choice, in a perfect
world, should only be size and the sound pressure levels at which you
desire to listen to music at. But, since all speakers color the sound a
bit, and since different speakers load an amplifier in different ways
across the audio frequency spectrum, you will notice marked differences
in the way different speakers sound. So, it would be in your best
interest to take a representative sample of music you like and demo the
speakers. The best situation would be to demo speakers with your amp and
CD player or turntable. To be frank, I would only use the opinions of
others as a basic guide, then let your own ears decide. Don't discount
certain speakers because some hoytitoity journalist in some audio
magazine says they are not up to his standards. He might listen to
nothing but chamber music while you listen to nothing but the classic
Seattle Grunge. Let you own ears be your guide! This is one thing I can
not emphasize enough. Give the customer what he likes and he will be
happy. Force something on him by telling him what he should like and he
will become your competition's best advertising.
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 1:41:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.opinion,rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Brian,

I think we spoke a few months ago when you gave me great advice when i was
buying the pionerr 720h dvd recorder....Thanks for that by the
way..............i bought it and am very happy with the investment and my
wife could not do without it now.

I am in a similar position now....
I am buying an AV Receiver and set of 5 speakers for a total budget of 3,500
to 4,00 Aussie dollars...
The brands i am looking at are Wharfedale, KEF Q, Mission, Dali, Whatmough,
anD Krix.....so far have been most imporessed with Wharfedale and Mission
with the Wharfs winning....still yet to try the KEF Q (people rave over
these), and the Whatmough...

I made a whole sampler CD from my cd collection and burnt it onto one
cd....so i just had to take one cd from shop to shop with a bit of
everything..

I am a complete novice when it comes to this but i thought i wanted to get a
well rounded speaker that sounds good for most of what i listen to...

The Categories i put on it were;
1. Live (Pink FLoyd - Learning to Fly, George Michael - DOnt let the sun go
down on me)
2. Pop (G. Michael - Freedom 90)
3. Accoustic Pop (Maroon 5 - She will be loved)
4. Rock (Queen - Princes of the Universe, Van Halen - Dreams)
5. Percussion (Safridio - The Bongo Drums, uno that one when you hear it)
5. Classical/Theatre - (Charlotte Church - Ave Maria and Amazing Grace, Stig
Rossen - The Impossible Dream)
6. Soundtracks (Immortal Classical (Beet
7. SOundtrack (Immortal Beloved - Fur Elis, Jurassic Park - Opening Credits,
Back Draft - Here comes the Fire Engines).
And lastly my favourite......John Williams Star Wars soundtracks....the two
tracks i sampled from this was DUel of the Fates (Phantom Menace), and
Across teh Stars (Attack of the clones love theme)..

Hope this helps.....

Could people please provide feedback to if this is how they would do it or
are there better pieces to try out some of these music styles.....

and also what speakers should i be looking to , and which ones avoid...My
speaker budget is going to be around the 2,500 AUD.....and in around a year
to 18 months will invest in about a 1,000 sub.

but when i was trying music i have to say the sub difference was so minimal
i can easily go without it for a while.....




"Brian" <bclark@es.co.nz> wrote in message
news:072q51t2tfle6i97t9l36kubaml2e7ojg9@4ax.com...
> "Colin B." <cbigam@somewhereelse.nucleus.com> wrote:
>
> >In rec.audio.tech Brian <bclark@es.co.nz> wrote:
> >
> >(Barry's excellent advice snipped)
> >
> >> Thanks for your advice Barry.
> >> I have a feeling that some speakers are more suitable for Rock music
> >> and other speakers are suitable for Classical music, etc. It would be
> >> nice if the manufactures put a label on their speakers as it what they
> >> are suitable for.
> >> I'm trying to get away from speakers that are too bright and falsely
> >> colour music, these type of speakers seem to be suitable for listening
> >> to for short periods. I'm hoping to give more life to my old CD's by
> >> finding speakers that will faithfully place the CD's as they were
> >> meant to be heard.
> >
> >A few things I'd like to add here. Good speakers shouldn't be oriented
for
> >classical or rock or smooth jazz. Good speakers should sound good,
period.
> >That said, the compromises that have to be made in the real world may
> >favour one or the other. Recently I listened to some Meadowlarks with
great
> >anticipation, and found myself disappointed. They sounded really
startling
> >with vocals and small group jazz, but had _no_ bass at all! They wouldn't
> >be acceptable at any price without a subwoofer, in my opinion. Others
though,
> >love them for their clarity and openness. Maybe if all you listen to is
> >Jazz at the Pawnshop...
> >
> >Barry talked about picking music you're familiar with. More to the point,
> >pick recordings that you're familiar with (or take your favorite albums,
> >and become familiar with the recording). Get to know what a particular
track
> >does really well, or has a hard time with. Figure out what parts are
> >challenging for a speaker to get right. Here are some examples from my
own
> >listening routine.
> >
> >1) So What? from Miles Davis "Kind of Blue" (the new remastered
recording)
> > The pacing and recording of this album is so perfect that I sit
> > on the edge of my chair, waiting for Miles' horn to come in. If I
> > notice the speakers at all, then there's something wrong with them.
> > The string bass in the intro is particularly revealing--on good
> > speakers, it sounds exactly like a bass being played in front of
> > you, just off to the side. On many speakers, it's a little dull,
> > thuddy, or thin.
> >2) Get out of Town, from Holly Cole's "It Happened One Night"
> > Shiveringly good close-miked vocals, and again that revealing bass.
> > This will really highlight clarity, transparency and imaging. If
> > you close your eyes, you should be able to pinpoint every instrument
> > on stage.
> >3) The first song on The Mavens first album, which I don't have handy at
> >the moment.
> > Because my speakers have got to ROCK! :-) The chorus of this song
> > starts with an electronic bass, a kick drum, and a Chapman stick
> > punching the bottom end. If there are any flaws in the bass, (either
> > insufficient or boomy), this will reveal them in three notes.
> >4) A coupla tracks off of Jennifer Warne's "The Hunter."
> > This is a pure audiophile recording, and has everything going on
> > at the same time. Deep, clear, extended bass; delicate and close
> > vocals, and just lotsa warmth. It's very easy though, for it all
> > to get bunched up and muddy in the midrange. "Way Down Deep" is
> > particularly good.
> >5) The third (fourth?) track on Horace X's "Burst Peacock."
> > Hard driving relentless techno/acoustic celtic insanity. On good
> > speakers you can (a) pick out all of the various instruments (lead
> > violin, clarinet, lowland pipes) from the sequencer and electronic
> > drums; and (b) listen for more than five minutes without your ears
> > hurting. This is a VERY fatiguing album on many speakers.
> >
> >So the exact music above isn't crucial (although I would recommend it all
> >to anyone interested), but the stuff it reveals is. That's what you need
to
> >go into a store with.
> >
> >Oh yeah, and don't even think of burning a CD from MP3s. Stick to the
> >original material.
> >
> >Colin
>
> Thanks Colin.
> It's interesting to read what you listen for in your selections of
> music. Out of interest have you found any speakers that are acceptable
> for the things you listen for?
>
> Regards Brian
>
!