CBS. 60 Minutes. Iraqi Prisoner Abuse

Has anyone seen that program? (did it show last night in america?)

Why are the rest of the american media so reluctant to cover this story? Is it seen as unpatriotic or something? are there some sort of a media censorship instructions?


<b><font color=red>"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."</font color=red><font color=blue> - Benjamin Franklin</font color=blue></b>

Really. (What DH said) I've only seen/heard that covered about half a dozen times today, and it sounds terrible. You're right, Grenade, nobody's covering it. It must be getting censored.

<font color=blue>War</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Eagle</font color=orange>
"I am not a role model." - Charles Barkley
{FTM}

But do you think it is as isolated as they claim to make it? With the authorities blaming this on the six soldiers, calling them rogue. While, the soldiers claim they got no training in sensitivity towards arabs and had no training on the geneva convention.

I mean, do you really need training to know that it isn't exactly right to strip prisoners them and do things that fall just short of molesting them. May be they were molesting them.

What happens in prisons where there isn't a soldier who's conscience suddenly dawns on them.

<b><font color=red>"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."</font color=red><font color=blue> - Benjamin Franklin</font color=blue></b>

I would expect it to be on the front page of the printed papers by tommorrow.

<font color=red>_______________________________________________</font color=red>
Nov. 6, 1971: "I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine medals"

- John Kerry, a Presidential Candidate

You don't find it at all surprising, that its already been on the international broadcast and internet media for two days already and has been on almost all papers today, yet the american papers having had around twelve hours additional time, still haven't published anything major. The only paper to dedicate a serious coverage was some baltimore paper.

you think it really was isolated? Amnesty seems to think otherwise. Seeing the kind of things many of the american soldiers are willing to do on camera, who knows what they do when there are no cameras.

I don't think it is isolated. I think it is far more widespread than they're willing to admit. Also, these soldiers should be charged with war crimes, not just a simple closed military hearing.


The program delayed releasing the pictures by two weeks at the request of the pentagon. Seeing the reaction of the pentagon at the pictures released of flag draped coffins, also how one of ABCs subsidiary channel's refusal to air the kia soldiers naming program, one would wonder how far americans let the so called "patriotism" get in the way of the plain and simple truth.

<b><font color=red>"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."</font color=red><font color=blue> - Benjamin Franklin</font color=blue></b>

Amnesty international has quite a few complaints on this sort of behaviour by american soldiers in their prisons. Generally the spokespeople just dismiss these complaints as absurd. This time the only difference is there were pictures.

That is why they say this is not isolated. Perhaps not "normal" but certainly not isolated. I wouldn't be surprised if at least half the arrested are subjected to some sort of torture. By the own admission of some high ranking american soldier, around 60% of the arrested probably had nothing to do with any crime or terrorism.


<b><font color=red>"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."</font color=red><font color=blue> - Benjamin Franklin</font color=blue></b>

No, 6 people are caught red-handed. plenty more involved not just here, but in other incedents too. Have a little look at Amnesty's website.

Also think twice about all those accusations in the past you've dismissied out of hand. Now think about guantanamo bay, and all the released prisoners that complained about torture.

<b><font color=red>"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."</font color=red><font color=blue> - Benjamin Franklin</font color=blue></b>

Why? because I'm painting a picture where america has bloody hands?

<b><font color=red>"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."</font color=red><font color=blue> - Benjamin Franklin</font color=blue></b>

I read the official statement. You had already said all of that though.

You don't like America and I'm sorry to hear that. Nonetheless, there are 6 people implicated here from what I understand. That is a far cry from what you have said.


<font color=red>_______________________________________________</font color=red>
Nov. 6, 1971: "I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine medals"

- John Kerry, a Presidential Candidate

That is what happened. Double or triple that and you still aren't remotely close to what you have been spewing.

<font color=red>_______________________________________________</font color=red>
Nov. 6, 1971: "I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine medals"

- John Kerry, a Presidential Candidate

The ONLY paper? The only way you can say that is if you've seen ALL of our newspapers. I gotta say, that's an awful lot of reading. You must read pretty fast!

Some of those pictures that have been reported as remains of soldiers killed in Iraq, weren't. They were of the damned space shuttle disaster. But some people were in such a rush to get those out, they didn't even check. Guess it's possible that you're letting your anti-americanism get in the way of the plain and simple truth. Nah, couldn't be.

Not only that, but now you're attacking ALL of us. No offense, Grenade, but it would be nice to see you focus on an real issue itself, instead of just using them as an excuse to slag all of us every chance you get.

Guess what?!?! LOTS of us are disgusted by torture of prisoners! Lots of us are saddened by seeing those coffins! You think hearing about Pat Tillman, one HELL of a man, dying, and others like him, makes us happy? Lots of us don't want to hide everything, we want to know! But now you're acting like ALL of us want to kick dirt over it, and act like it's some fake moon landing or something. Get real.

<font color=blue>War</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Eagle</font color=orange>
"I am not a role model." - Charles Barkley
{FTM}

You're just reading a single report.

Look at all of <A HREF="http://www.google.com/search?q=site:amnesty.org+american+iraq+torture&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8" target="_new">these</A>.


I have nothing against america in general. In fact, most of the americans I know are pretty ok (not many, but still). I do think the current "regime" in america is rather vile, deceptive and destructive. The american foreign policy has always left something to be desired. America has a clear double standard that can be seen by everyone except themselves.

<b><font color=red>"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."</font color=red><font color=blue> - Benjamin Franklin</font color=blue></b>

Even I wouldn't say something like that about the French. What's wrong with you? You're personally attacking a lot of people now. Don't like policies or ideas? Fine. People? That's sick.

You don't like our "regime"? Tough. We vote for what WE want, not for what YOU want.

Our double standard? Define it. This is not a perfect world and I much prefer the actions of the United States versus the inactions of many other countries.

<font color=red>_______________________________________________</font color=red>
Nov. 6, 1971: "I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine medals"

- John Kerry, a Presidential Candidate

I never made any comment of the shuttle disaster, all I saw on tv was pictures of large numbers of coffins, and the report saying pentagon is seeking ways of banning such pictures.

I know there are people in america that want to know the truth as it is. I was reading something about some association formed by the families of active soldiers to know and make public those who were killed in action, and acknowledgement of those that were injured. They were complaining, that there was no attendences by a single government representative, let alone the president, in a single one of the funerals. They were also complaining, that the injuries and amputation reports get brushed over.

DH should know, I don't paint the entire US population by the same brush, but in every single debate he seems to find it comforting to accuse me of exactly that.

Now, focusing on the real issue, as you say. DH seems to think it is only six. Now that is what I think is wrong with people. Now here is where I paint with the same brush everyone who seems to think that there isn't anyone else doing the same just because they haven't been caught. The people who even refuse to ask them selves, "all those complaints of torture before? could they have been true?". Those are the people I accuse of being blinded by patriotism.

Amnesty has been on tv numerous times with reports that they've recieved complaints of torture in prisons run by americans. Many of the people released from the illegal detention fromt guantanamo bay have complained of torture and molesting. In many of the cases of molesting, even I didn't believe everything. But now I'm thinking twice, and leaning more towards believing the released detainies rather than the military.


<b><font color=red>"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."</font color=red><font color=blue> - Benjamin Franklin</font color=blue></b>

Remember, your (allegedly) voted in president made a huge speech last year saying the war was over. You're no longer fighting a war. You're supposed to be nation building now. You're supposed to be winning hearts and minds. You're supposed to be showing that you're not a occupying force with the sole intention of occupation.

You're doing the opposite. Tony blair has to side with bush because he promised to do so, and is getting a lot of stick for that. The Commander of the British troops in iraq, however, has already said "We have to work with the americans, but not as the americans".

You're so called "good guys" troops are holding two cities in siege for ages now, with massive civilian casualties, but with no resolve. Now, you've had to concede to a former General of Saddams army. I wouldn't say you're heavy handed tactics have worked at all.

<b><font color=red>"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."</font color=red><font color=blue> - Benjamin Franklin</font color=blue></b>

Just because you don't understand how we vote over here doesn't mean he was allegedly voted in.

What heavy handed techniques? Laying seige? People were allowed to leave. That's not seige.

<font color=red>_______________________________________________</font color=red>
Nov. 6, 1971: "I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine medals"

- John Kerry, a Presidential Candidate

Many people were just afraid to leave. There was a elderly man lying near his front gate for a long while after he was shot by an american sniper, because his wife was too afraid to bring him back in.

The people are afraid just get out of there houses, because they just get shot. That is a siege. Getting heavy gunships to fire in populated areas is heavy handedness. Even before all this began, flying gunship helicopters over residential areas, totally unnecessary. But seeing the lack of control the commanders seem to have over the solders, claiming rogues and isolated incedentes whenever something goes wrong, I think the helicopter pilots were just playing around just because they didn't have any specific instructions to not do that.


<b><font color=red>"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."</font color=red><font color=blue> - Benjamin Franklin</font color=blue></b>

Sleep deprevation is a method of torture, called "stress and duress" by american authorities and "torture lite" by others. It is a toreture technique none-the-less. This is about the gouantanamo prisoners isn't it? Remember, the main argument made by the u.s. gov't was that they are unlawful combatants, and so have no protection from the geneva conventions.


<b><font color=red>"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."</font color=red><font color=blue> - Benjamin Franklin</font color=blue></b>

I know you never made a comment about the shuttle disaster. That was part of my point. In some people's rush to get those photos out and say they were all of soldiers from Iraq, that facts weren't checked, and it wasn't just a matter of patriotism trying to ignore the truth, but rather not taking time to check what the photos really were. In a rush to make a story, some of the facts were screwed up, instead of just patriotism ignoring them, which is what you said happened.

Maybe you do think some of us want the truth, but you start off so many discussions in a manner that gets a message across to a number of us that you ARE painting us all with the same brush. DH noticed the same thing I did, and said so. Others have before, too. That's not just coincidence.

<font color=blue>War</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Eagle</font color=orange>
"I am not a role model." - Charles Barkley
{FTM}

He won't admit that he was trying to take a cheap shot at us.

<font color=red>_______________________________________________</font color=red>
Nov. 6, 1971: "I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine medals"

- John Kerry, a Presidential Candidate

I don't buy that.

<font color=red>_______________________________________________</font color=red>
Nov. 6, 1971: "I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine medals"

- John Kerry, a Presidential Candidate

This was your original post despite it being an American source that broke the story.

You were making cheap shots. You know it and I know it. It's turned into a good debate but you still were trying to make us out as censored human rights violators blinded by patriotism.

<font color=red>_______________________________________________</font color=red>
Nov. 6, 1971: "I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine medals"

- John Kerry, a Presidential Candidate

Al Jazeera

<font color=red>_______________________________________________</font color=red>
Nov. 6, 1971: "I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine medals"

- John Kerry, a Presidential Candidate

I didn't avoid it. I just didn't draw the same conclusion that you did.

<font color=red>_______________________________________________</font color=red>
Nov. 6, 1971: "I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine medals"

- John Kerry, a Presidential Candidate

Wow, talk about the pot calling the kettle black, would you like me to look up some dirt on your country? I see reports on people from other "civilized" countries committing attrocities from time to time, but unlike you I haven't kept track. You see, I believe that what YOU do is properly handled by YOUR country. Maybe I'm wrong though, perhaps it's time for me to be petty and start keeping records on everyone!

America gets slag because we're the biggest target. We've done the most bad because we've done the most good. That's what happens when you're pro-active, you do a bunch of good things and get slagged for the bad things a few people have done in the process.

Now that gets us to the world thinking the U.S. is TOO pro-active. We need to quit defending people. I agree somewhat, we need to pull out of S.K. and let N.K. invade. We need to quit standing up for TW and let China take over. We need to quit helping Isreal and let the surrounding Arabs exterminate them. We should have never gotten involved in WWII on the european front. These are the things the "world" expects of us. Somehow I don't think such actions are good...but then again, give the majority what they want without standing up for the minority.

Heck, we could have left national affairs alone too, and let the KKK exterminate minorities here. Taken the pressure off S. Africa and let the powers be. Stayed out of former Yugo. and let F.M. do his thing.

It occurs to me that the only people who REALLY hate the U.S. are pacifist and extremist. People who don't care about human rights issues internal to any nation, they only care when someone else gets involved, possibly out of guilty conscience for not doing anything themselves. And on the other side, the extremist hate us simply for stopping them.

None of that goes toward the War in Iraq, which was ill-conceived and likely due more to one man's ego than the need to defend anyone. But the pacifist and extremist both hated us before that war, which goes back to your comment.

So I say, since nobody else wants to get involved, we should simply quit standing up for anyone. Let them blow each other's brains out. Ethnic cleansing shouldn't concern us either, it's not our fight, no need to make it our fight. Oh, but then the world would hate us for our INACTION. It's a lost cause.

You'd better pull the plank out of your own eye before attempting to take the spec out of mine.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>