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DI's and speaker outputs

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Anonymous
June 8, 2005 2:28:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Hi,

a friend wants to DI his combo (100 Watts) but as there is no line level
access the only option is to use the extension speaker socket into a DI.
Everything about this method screams at me it is not a good idea. Basically
none of the band are technically minded and I can see a faulty cable or
onstage accident blowing up the amplifier, and they will be doing this all
by themselves (no sound engineer).

So, my thoughts were to build a jack to jack from amp output to DI with
inline resistors at both ends to cope with shorts. Say, >680 ohms @2 watts
inside Neutrik jacks. Any reasons why this is a bad idea? I can't think of
any.


Cheers,


Gareth.

More about : speaker outputs

Anonymous
June 8, 2005 6:07:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

Gareth Magennis wrote:
> Hi,
>
> a friend wants to DI his combo (100 Watts) but as there is no line level
> access the only option is to use the extension speaker socket into a DI.
> Everything about this method screams at me it is not a good idea. Basically
> none of the band are technically minded and I can see a faulty cable or
> onstage accident blowing up the amplifier, and they will be doing this all
> by themselves (no sound engineer).
>
> So, my thoughts were to build a jack to jack from amp output to DI with
> inline resistors at both ends to cope with shorts. Say, >680 ohms @2 watts
> inside Neutrik jacks. Any reasons why this is a bad idea? I can't think of
> any.

If the DI has an attenuation switch with a 40 dB setting it should be
fine without adding any series resistors. The impedance of the DI will
be very high compared to the speaker(s) so it won't be dissipating a lot
of power.
Anonymous
June 10, 2005 2:27:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

> 1) Run from the last point on your input chain of your bass (ie:
> straight from the bass OR last stomp box, depending on your BP's setup)
> into the DI, and the use the Link/To Amplifier/Parallel Out/Whatever from
> the DI into the Combo. You can suppliment the combo's sound with a mic
> (the SM57 will do alright in this instance).
>
> 2) Do as Bigamps tells you, and find a DI with a Speaker-in or 40dB pad
> setting, and take the line from the speaker, and run it to the DI instead.
>
> Personally, I always use option #1 (always supplimented with a mic on a
> national touring act), and have never had a complaint or problem. Also,
> by going route #1, the chances of a faulty cable blowing up your rig is
> quite minimal.
>
> If you're not touring with an engineer, then chances are the sound coming
> from the DI feed will be more than sufficiant for the types of gig's
> you're doing. Nobody in the crowd is likely to be able to tell the
> difference of the DI tone of the bass versus the Combo tone of the bass.
>
> You won't find better answers than you did in AAPLS.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave~

Thanks Dave, but nobody seems to be listening to what I am trying to say.
First, the band have specifically asked for the sound of the Ashdown, not
the sound of a DI'd bass guitar. Secondly, I don't think it is a good idea
for them to be plugging a DI straight into the speaker outputs of that
Ashdown when there is no soundman or any other tech around to make sure
there are no accidents. I am trying to find a way to achieve this.

The band are very particular about their sound and in my experience, and I
include myself here, sound engineers have a tendency to override the wishes
of a band because they think (and mostly do) know better. In this case, if
they were using the DI'd bass and not the Ashdown sound, psychologically
they would not be as happy and their performance, which to them is the
highest priority of all, would suffer. Arguably this is tantamount to saying
"I'm not going to give you what YOU want, I'm going to give you what I
want". And it's all very well saying "nobody in the crowd is likely to tell
the difference...." but the FOH sound produced is not always the be all and
end all of a gig, especially not to the band performing, except perhaps to
some sound engineers. This is especially true of the kind of gigs and the
equipment therein they are playing - small pubs and clubs with a far from
Pro PA rig. A lot of the crowd are there to see a performance, not wax
lyrical about how good the BSS DI was. I am trying to respect the bands
wishes as artists and find a way to make this work. I have done more than
my fair share of sound engineering so please don't think I am having a go at
sound engineers, I am just trying to point out that with a little bending
and to-ing and fro-ing we can all go home happy bunnies, and the band will
quite rightly think, as a sound engineer, you have done them a great
service.


Cheers,

Gareth.
Related resources
Anonymous
June 16, 2005 6:18:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

"Gareth Magennis" <sound.service@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:D 86h8l$qo4$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Hi,
>
> a friend wants to DI his combo (100 Watts) but as there is no line level
> access the only option is to use the extension speaker socket into a DI.
> Everything about this method screams at me it is not a good idea.
Basically
> none of the band are technically minded and I can see a faulty cable or
> onstage accident blowing up the amplifier, and they will be doing this all
> by themselves (no sound engineer).
>
> So, my thoughts were to build a jack to jack from amp output to DI with
> inline resistors at both ends to cope with shorts. Say, >680 ohms @2
watts
> inside Neutrik jacks. Any reasons why this is a bad idea? I can't think
of
> any.
>

There are some circuits and comments here

http://sound.westhost.com/project35.htm

Tim
Anonymous
June 16, 2005 1:59:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech (More info?)

> Your concern for the band's performance is well founded, and often
> neglected by us sound people. It is good that you still focus on those
> things; I have taken note, and will try and be more aware in the future.
> Something that I have perhaps neglected in recent history.
>
> A DI for the given situation may not be the solution you're after. Even
> DI'ing the speaker output of the Ashdown won't give you the true sound of
> that combo. The sound of the Ashdown as you know, is made up of every
> property of that combo. If the band is that particular about the Ashdown
> sound, then your only solution is to mic it.
>
> By adding resistors and stuff to make special patch-cords will also colour
> the sound (granted it may or may not be noticable).
>
> The safest bet still is either to DI the Bguitar or mic the combo. Sorry
> guy, but with the senario provided, and the technical level which the
> musicians are at, this seems like your solution.
>
> Best wishes,
> Dave~

Thanks, Dave, I appreciate greatly your sentiment. To be honest, the only
reason I am so concerned is they are my friends and I know how serious they
are about their music, otherwise I no doubt would have fallen into the same
camp as everyone else on this matter. For what it's worth, they have since
tried a D112 and didn't like it very much! As a result of this and all the
other replies to my posts they are now seriously considering DI'ing the
guitar as possibly their best option under these circumstances, even though
it's not really what they want and it leaves them more at the mercy of the
house (overworked and badly paid) sound engineer.

I think I have been somewhat spoilt as far as sound engineering is
concerned - the system has always been hired in and there has always been a
box full of DI's and top end mics, so you could just grab an RE20 or a D12
if you wanted one, and I can't remember ever coming across a bass rig
without some sort of DI output.


Thanks,


Gareth.
!