What's all this gum-beating about "tests"?

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion,aus.hi-fi (More info?)

"George M. Middius" <cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast
[dot] net> wrote in message
news:vticd1td56bh5vp4ov3f0i4b2e0qqp764b@4ax.com

> Is somebody trying to peddle some "test" equipment on the
> audio newsgroups?

Yes. We've got a problem here with people who seem to think
that CD players and amplifiers are test equipment that
everybody needs to buy.

> I can't figure out the point of this discussion.

Given your demonstrated lack of interest in audio Middius,
this surprises me very little.

>Who would
> want to go to all the trouble of setting up a
scientifically
> meaningful "test" just to decide which CD player to get?

Good question. People like Pinkerton and I tell people that
CD players tend to sound very much alike. Therefore they
should make their CD player choices based other factors that
are more important to them.

Unfortunately we've got the technologically backward
nay-sayers like Fella, who want people to believe that their
are mind-boggling audible differences between CD players,
amplifiers and everything else. They're the guys who are
peddling tests - in their case sighted, non-level-matched,
non-time-synched listening tests. They're the guys who are
peddling test equipment, in their case people should buy
this amplifier and test it at home, and then buy that
amplifier and test it at home, and so forth.

> I don't think there's a shred of realism in this
ideology.

Middius, you're not even a real person. How can you
logically present yourself as a judge of realism? Look at
the people around you like Art and Surf. They are so ashamed
of what they post here and their long-term close association
with you that they won't even use their real names here.

> If you want "science", you can't just have a friend switch
the
> components back and forth, and then try to decide which is
> which.

It's not about science, its about doing a reasonble
comparison. That is, if you are actually going to do the
listening tests that people lik Fella and Art keep pushing.

>That's not a real "test", it's just a crude simulation.

Agreed, what that kind of test procedure there's no
level-matching and there's no time-synching so of course
everything will sound different, which is what Art and Fella
keep pushing.

> If you want a real "test", you need testing equipment, a
truly
> quiet environment, and meaningful controls of bias.
Otherwise
> you're just spinning your wheels.

Since when are you an expert about testing, Middius? What
good listening tests have you done and where have you posted
the results? Have you written any papers or magazine
articles about testing? Since when have you been in favor of
testing audio equipment? Why the change of heart?

> So I have to think that after one of these inane go-rounds
> about "tests", somebody is going to pop up with an offer
to
> sell some "test" equipment.

Seems like a worthy business opportunity for you Middius,
given that you have no known job, no known tradem, no known
business, no known education, and no known means of support.

> When it happens, we can all laugh
> about the salesman who tried to sell snow to Eskimos.

Whatever that means.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

"Ayn Marx" <mdhjwh@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:1121347710.365798.323200@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
> George M. Middius wrote:
>> Is somebody trying to peddle some "test" equipment on the
>> audio newsgroups?
>>
> etc,,,,,,,,,Snip<...
>
> Please piss off back to the Land of The Brave and
Zenophobic.
> We have enough nut cases of our own here on Aus.Hi-Fi.

The irony is that we have an Aussie who wants to chase all
the xenophobic Americans out of her sacred little part of
the world. Yes, she wants to chase the foreigners out!

Naah, Ayn isn't a xenophobe, no not even a little bit! ;-)

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

"Fella" the anonymous alias <nosp@m.here> wrote in message
news:_JuBe.4739$FZ7.3398@reader1.news.jippii.net

> Arny Krueger wrote:

>> Look at the elaborate
>> overblown claims you made about that BAT integrated amp
>> whose basic properties you didn't even know until I
pointed
>> them out to you a few days ago.

> You dumb-schmuck, I had just auditioned that amp for two
> weeks. Gees, you can be dumb.

Given how little you actually knew about the BAT before I
corrected you Fella, that is highly doubtful. You didn't
even know its correct price. You were obviously just
dropping names, which is one of those things that people
like you that hide behind anonymous aliases can do quite
easily.

>> Fella I note that you aren't addressing the fact that by
>> criticizing us for wanting levels to be matched,

> No you dumb schmuck all I am saying is sit down and listen
to
> the audio gear as you are supposed to and trust your ears
if
> they tell you they hear something. Where is the word
"test"
> there?

The word test has been replaced by vague words and phrases
like "sit down and listen to
the audio gear as you are supposed to", and "trust your ears
if they tell you they hear something". You're just dancing
around the fact that you're talking about listening tests.

Fella, you like to joke about what my Pioneer receiver tells
me, but its not your ears but your brain that is telling you
things when you listen. One of the things that your brain
knows with your sighted evaluations is what you are
listening to. Anything that you might have been told about
the piece of equipment in the past could be affecting your
judgements.

Fella, your dismissal of the need for level-matching shows
how intellectually lazy you really are.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion,aus.hi-fi (More info?)

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:21:54 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
<patent3@dircon.co.uk> wrote:

>Pity that, since it sounds just the same as *well designed* high end
>gear such as you can buy from Meridian or Krell.

Said the Krell owner.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

Fella is at it again:

>I am saying is sit down and listen to the audio
>gear as you are supposed to and trust your ears if they tell you they
>hear something. Where is the word "test" there?

If a comparison is blind and level matched, then you are relying on
your ears and them alone, so why the angst? Some people use the word
test, I prefer comparison, since there is only listening for
difference.

The high end industry you speak of, is mostly myth. The knowledge on
building audio equipment is known and has been for some time. That you
did an ABX test that you yourself said did not reveal differences
should have taught you that.

Nobody can force anyone to buy or not buy expensive equipment. The
point of doing blind level matched comparisons is to discover if
there's any reason to spend more money to get better quality sound. As
it turns out, there isn't in most cases. Why that bothers so many
people is strange, since you'd think real music lovers would be pleased
to know that they can listen to their favorite music on equipment that
is within most people's budgets. That way they can afford to buy more
of their favorite music and put the money for improvements where they
really count, on speakers and/or room treatments.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

In answer to that question that keeps dogging you, Mickey: No, high-end audio is
not for Bug Eaters.

>The high end industry you speak of,[sic] is mostly myth.

That's the spirit, Mickey. If you can pretend it doesn't exist, then how can it
bother you?

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

"George Middius" <George_member@newsguy.com> wrote in
message
newsb6gv5025jt@drn.newsguy.com

> In answer to that question that keeps dogging you, Mickey:
No,
> high-end audio is not for Bug Eaters.

How childish can you get, Middius?

I'm sure you'll give us some examples real soon now! :-(

>> The high end industry you speak of,[sic] is mostly myth.

Yet another case of Middius pulling the debating trade
gambit of picking at the details in order to distract
attention from the real issue.

> That's the spirit, Mickey. If you can pretend it doesn't
> exist, then how can it bother you?

Let's review a few facts like how bogus it is for Middius to
claim expertise or even minimal knowlege about what audio's
high end is all about.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

What does your lashup do an AP Portable One or ATS-1 couldn't do as
well, Arny?

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

<calcerise@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1121374916.504920.18210@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
> I've seen ATS-1's go in the threes on eBay, and a desktop
PC
> with a first rate sound card is a thousand bucks even
today,
> times two-we're not an order of magnitude apart. A 339 or
a
> Potomac pair is cheaper, used.
>
> But a hobbyist can start with a HP200 bench osc (very
cheap,
> eminently repairable),

You forgot that the HP200 is an obsolete piece of junk every
day of this millenium.

> a dummy load, a HP or Fluke wideband voltmeter and a
simple scope, and add on a HP 334 a little
> later on for the budget of a nice PC.

The HP334 is another one of those obsolete pieces that
needs to be sent out to pastre. I have two HP broadband
voltmeters and they stay on the shelf.

> I'd then drag home a HP 8903 (I hate Sound Tech...my
prejudice) and a budget PC with a
> scrounged HPIB card.

Seems like unecessary cost, size, weight and complexity.

Hey Cal, let us know when you wake up and find out that
we've been in the 21st century for almost 5 years!

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

The entity posting as George Middius said:


>In answer to that question that keeps dogging you, Mickey: No, high-end audio is
>not for Bug Eaters.



>>The high end industry you speak of is mostly myth.


>That's the spirit, Mickey. If you can pretend it doesn't exist, then how can it
>bother you?

That explains why you don't own anything that could be considered high
end. Of course not being a real person, you can't actually own
anything.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:MsadncCUvrK290vfRVn-tw@comcast.com...
> "Ayn Marx" <mdhjwh@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
> news:1121347710.365798.323200@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
> > Please piss off back to the Land of The Brave and
> Zenophobic.
> > We have enough nut cases of our own here on Aus.Hi-Fi.
>
> The irony is that we have an Aussie who wants to chase all
> the xenophobic Americans out of her sacred little part of
> the world. Yes, she wants to chase the foreigners out!

The real irony is that this thread isn't even cross posted to aus.hi-fi!!!
:-)

MrT.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion,aus.hi-fi (More info?)

"Gordon" <gor2005@aapt.net.au> wrote in message
newsb7i73$b3s$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au...
> > Please boys, Take your ball back to your own back-yard and play with it
> > there and leave us at Aus.Hi-Fi to indulge in our own particular form
> > of insanity.
> Ayn ,but we know the Americans like to play in everyones backyard but
their
> own (with the exception of my cousins ,who are all jolly nice folk.

Since this is cross posted to 3 non Australian news groups, it's hardly fair
to blame them for Ayn's Xenophobia.

MrT.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

"Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote in message
news:42d726e1$0$10191$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au

> <calcerise@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
news:1121374916.504920.18210@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>> I've seen ATS-1's go in the threes on eBay, and a desktop
PC
>> with a first rate sound card is a thousand bucks even
today,
>> times two-we're not an order of magnitude apart.

> So why not compare to a S/H PC? A couple of hundred for a
PC
> and a couple of hundred for a pro soundcard, will do the
job.
> Software is another matter though, but there is reasonable
> freeware available, adequate for many people.

> The beauty of the PC option is that it can do the same job
as
> a number of test instruments, plus automatic data
acquisition,
> plus data analysis, plus data storage and presentation
etc.

> Yes dedicated instruments have their benefits, but even
multi
> million dollar test labs are full of PC's as well, and
have
> been for decades.

For example, Dolby Labs is said to own 100's of PC equipped
with Card Deluxe audio interfaces.

You've got to remember that Cal's mind is locked in the
1960s, right down to his proud ownership of Klipsch La
Scalas as his primary high end speaker system.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:58:42 -0400, "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com>
wrote:

>Here's a news flash that you obviously need Fella: Speaker
>cables come in different lengths and its often good to use
>the shorter cable to gets the job done.

Even when the distance is longer?

<chuckle>

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

"Fella" <trap.sp@m.com> wrote in message
news:vrTBe.5077$1k6.3742@reader1.news.jippii.net

> Stop trying to act like some italian mafioso prick and
answer
> this question: When subjected to an ABX, would the krell
sound
> identical with a qsc?

Pretty good chance.

> The ABX premise (The whole enchillada) makes them sound
the
> same.

No, they always sounded as they sounded and keep on sounding
that way in an ABX test.

ABX just eliminates the usual means you use to judge
amplifier sound quality Fella, being

(1) Visual and other non-audible cues

(2) Bad level matching

(3) Comparing amps when different music is playing on each

Note that John Atkinson appears to consistently fall prey to
at minimum, items 1 and 3. I suspect he and his reviewers
fudge item 2 a lot.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> said:

>> So here we've arrived at the heart of the matter: people select
>> certain components not only for their sound, but also for
>> their looks, their fancy nameplate, their build quality,
>> whatever.

>> So what's the relevance of double blind testing for an average
>> consumer again?

>DBTs are good for resolving controversies relating to sound
>quality.


That's all good and well, Arny, but as I have been saying now for
about the 8-odd years that I'm on usenet:

When one likes a certain component, because of whatever property, that
one will automatically "sound better" because it makes the owner feel
good. Even when it is objectively less good (!)

That's entirely subjective indeed, but one can NOT go around and deny
that influence.

And another thing: one can't call SET amps and vinyl reproduction
'inferior", just because it performs objectively worse.
One can just say they don't conform to a certain hifi standard (which
in itself is debatable).

As far as I'm concerned, audio still is mostly a subjective area.

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

Sander deWaal said:

>And another thing: one can't call SET amps and vinyl reproduction
>'inferior", just because it performs objectively worse.
>One can just say they don't conform to a certain hifi standard (which
>in itself is debatable).
>
>As far as I'm concerned, audio still is mostly a subjective area.

That's fine for you, but if Krooger were to admit that was true, he'd have no
more reason to go on living.

Right, Arnii? ;-)

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

My LaScalas are on their way out the door as we speak, having been
replaced by a homebuilt Klipsch horn klone pair which I have discussed
elsewhere.

PCs (and Macs and Sun SPARC boxes) are fine in their place. They are
not test equipment. They may be built into test equipment as in the
case of the HP Infiinium scope or the National Instruments line

( http://www.ni.com/pxi/ )

but if Arny were correct the above wouldn't exist.

The commodisumer PC is not a piece of test equipment. It is
unbenchworthy for many reasons.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

Stewart Pinkerton said:

> It stops people wasting money in an attempt to improve sound quality.

If you think "tests" are the only thing "stopping people wasting money", you
must be a different species from homo sapiens.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:49:51 GMT, donald@pearce.uk.com (Don Pearce)
wrote:

>On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:30:00 -0500, dave weil <dweil2@bellsouth.net>
>wrote:
>
>>>It stops people wasting money in an attempt to improve sound quality.
>>>I'd love an Oracle CD player, but I know it won't *sound* any
>>>different than my Sony or Pioneer.
>>
>>DBT details please.
>
>Let's see if you can tell us why a DBT would not be appropriate.

Well, it *wouldn't* be appropriate if we didn't care about this
statement as applicable to anyone other than Stewart. And if this were
the case, then his statement doesn't mean anything really.

Surely you or Stewart would be demanding a dbt if someone was claiming
that they knew that the Oracle kicked the Sony or Pioneer's ass. It
works the other way as well.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 07:23:54 -0400, George M. Middius <cmndr
[underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net> wrote:

>
>
>Stewart Pinkerton said:
>
>> It stops people wasting money in an attempt to improve sound quality.
>
>If you think "tests" are the only thing "stopping people wasting money", you
>must be a different species from homo sapiens.

Correct, I am a member of homo sapiens sapiens.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:35:47 -0500, dave weil <dweil2@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

>On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:49:51 GMT, donald@pearce.uk.com (Don Pearce)
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:30:00 -0500, dave weil <dweil2@bellsouth.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>>It stops people wasting money in an attempt to improve sound quality.
>>>>I'd love an Oracle CD player, but I know it won't *sound* any
>>>>different than my Sony or Pioneer.
>>>
>>>DBT details please.
>>
>>Let's see if you can tell us why a DBT would not be appropriate.
>
>Well, it *wouldn't* be appropriate if we didn't care about this
>statement as applicable to anyone other than Stewart. And if this were
>the case, then his statement doesn't mean anything really.
>
>Surely you or Stewart would be demanding a dbt if someone was claiming
>that they knew that the Oracle kicked the Sony or Pioneer's ass. It
>works the other way as well.

Not really. I've proved to my *own* satisfaction that my Pioneer
sounds as good as anything on the market, so purchasing an Oracle - to
run through a Benchmark DAC-1 - would simply be an indulgence for the
sheer beauty of the thing. No expectation of superior sound required.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

Drunkie said:

> >> It stops people wasting money in an attempt to improve sound quality.
> >
> >If you think "tests" are the only thing "stopping people wasting money", you
> >must be a different species from homo sapiens.
>
> Correct, I am a member of homo sapiens sapiens.

Top off the laird, innkeeper.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:35:47 -0500, dave weil <dweil2@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

>On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 16:49:51 GMT, donald@pearce.uk.com (Don Pearce)
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 09:30:00 -0500, dave weil <dweil2@bellsouth.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>>It stops people wasting money in an attempt to improve sound quality.
>>>>I'd love an Oracle CD player, but I know it won't *sound* any
>>>>different than my Sony or Pioneer.
>>>
>>>DBT details please.
>>
>>Let's see if you can tell us why a DBT would not be appropriate.
>
>Well, it *wouldn't* be appropriate if we didn't care about this
>statement as applicable to anyone other than Stewart. And if this were
>the case, then his statement doesn't mean anything really.
>
>Surely you or Stewart would be demanding a dbt if someone was claiming
>that they knew that the Oracle kicked the Sony or Pioneer's ass. It
>works the other way as well.

So you don't understand DBTs. If you did you would know that they are
inapplicable in a situation where the putative subject has expressed
an opinion that there is NO difference.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Archived from groups: rec.audio.tech,rec.audio.misc,rec.audio.opinion (More info?)

Don Pearce said:

> >> >DBT details please.

> >> Let's see if you can tell us why a DBT would not be appropriate.

> >Trouble reading, Don?

> None at all, George. You?

Pardon?

In case you ain't seen it, this issue done been hashed to death. Why won't
Ferstler admit his crackpot pseudo-tests are worthless? Because the
"results" confirm what he already "knows". Why does Pukey rail on and on
about "wasting" money on audio gear when he has some super-expensive stuff
of his own? Because he knows how ridiculous it is to mix personal preference
in the same pot with "objective tests" (even though they're not really
objective and not really tests).

Maybe you really haven't seen Pukey's ranting and raving about DBTs. He
prescribes them for everybody else, you see. That's because he claims he did
a series of tests once upon a time. Those tests, whose details remain
unknown to this day, are alleged by Pukey to have established that his Krell
and his Yamahaha and his something or other all sound indistinguishable when
he doesn't know which one is playing. That's when he got religion.

In the real world, if two amps have a sonic performance that's so close to
indistinguishable that you really do need a DBT to see if you can tell them
apart, well then, the choice isn't really about sonics, is it? Any human
being would be much better off choosing one of the amps on some other basis.
That's what being human is all about. That's what sets us apart from
machines. Of course, some might wish they were machines instead of flesh and
blood. Nothing to be done about that except shake your head.