Time-align reverb?

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The main pair is near the main organ chambers in front. An ambient pair is
placed well in the back of the church, probably 100 feet away.

The delay between the front and back mics is audible. I plan to clip the
back channel to bring it closer to the front. I was wondering if anyone
had a different trick for blending the two channels.

Using a single pair was not a option for esthetic reasons. The organist
wanted an more "up front" sound than our usual recordings, but still loves
the synthetic reverb I give to this large but dry hall. I use a
convolution reverb on the rear channel signal.

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"Carey Carlan" <gulfjoe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns953192E538CA1gulfjoehotmailcom@207.69.154.205

> The main pair is near the main organ chambers in front. An ambient
> pair is placed well in the back of the church, probably 100 feet away.

There's going to be a natural delay of about 90 mSec, which can be audible
as a distinct echo.

> The delay between the front and back mics is audible.

To say the least!

> I plan to clip the back channel to bring it closer to the front.

I don't know what that means, to clip.

> I was wondering if
> anyone had a different trick for blending the two channels.

In a multitrack DAW context its pretty easy to move channels along the time
base to time-align them. Perfect alignment is usually not desirable, but
considerable reduction of time delay can make a big difference.

I have a *nice* slap echo that comes from the ceiling over our platform. 29
foot ceiling gives about 50 mSec delay. If its audible in the mix, I've had
good luck sliding it forward so that it is 10-15 mSec behind the spot mics,
which can give a pleasant mild "doubling" effect.

> Using a single pair was not a option for esthetic reasons.

If you've got just one performance to work with, multitrack recording and
multiple mics allow you to defer many critical choices until later on.

> The organist wanted an more "up front" sound than our usual recordings,
> but still loves the synthetic reverb I give to this large but dry
> hall. I use a convolution reverb on the rear channel signal.

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Laurence Payne <l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
news:vg1ag0p49us8rn0tffhu4c45n80fd5dm9q@4ax.com:

> What do you mean by "clip"?

To cut out a quarter-second chunk of the rear channel: the built-in 90 msec
delay plus the 160 msec delay introduced by the reverb.

> What do the rear mics give you that a reverb (maybe with a long
> pre-delay) on the main mics wouldn't?

The signal going into the reverb has a profound effect on the quality of
the output. By using microphones well back from the source, I remove all
the nasty transients and some of the HF component that would get processed
into the sound.

You've the "night club singer through a plate reverb" sound? Where every
smack of the lips and sibilance causes a long ring in the reverb? That's
the extreme case of what I'm trying to avoid.

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scotfraser@aol.com (ScotFraser) wrote in
news:20040726114225.22984.00002377@mb-m07.aol.com:

> Carey is not referring to waveform distortion here.

Waveform distortion? In one of MY recordings? Perish the thought!

(tongue firmly in cheek!)

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<< I guess the real question I was asking is if someone had any nifty ideas on
how to integrate a long (3 second plus), slow (250+ msec pre-delay) reverb
other than just more closely aligning the two tracks.
I kept thinking, "This really sounds cool, but no one but me is going to
tolerate that kind of delay." >>

Yeah, that amount of delay is quite excessive. Beyond about 80 msec of predelay
gets into weird effects territory. Have you tried moving your ambience mics
closer to the stage, but facing them into the back of the hall?




Scott Fraser

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"Carey Carlan" <gulfjoe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9532EB0926021gulfjoehotmailcom@207.69.154.202
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in
> news:geKdnQwu_YOQlJjc4p2dnA@comcast.com:

>>> I plan to clip the back channel to bring it closer to the front.
>
>> I don't know what that means, to clip.

> Obviously a poor choice of words. "to cut out a chunk of the rear
> channel WAV file at the beginning to time shift it forward."

I used to do stuff like that until I learned more about how to use Audition.
Now I just click block properties and shave a some milliseconds off the
time.

>>> I was wondering if
>>> anyone had a different trick for blending the two channels.

> I guess the real question I was asking is if someone had any nifty
> ideas on how to integrate a long (3 second plus), slow (250+ msec
> pre-delay) reverb other than just more closely aligning the two
> tracks.

See comments about microphone choice, below.

> I kept thinking, "This really sounds cool, but no one but me is going
> to tolerate that kind of delay."

250 mSec suggests a HUGE room.

>> I have a *nice* slap echo that comes from the ceiling over our
>> platform. 29 foot ceiling gives about 50 mSec delay. If its audible
>> in the mix, I've had good luck sliding it forward so that it is 10-15
>> mSec behind the spot mics, which can give a pleasant mild "doubling"
>> effect.

> This is a big church organ that I'm trying to make sound a little
> smaller and closer, but still with a (rather quiet) long tail reverb.
> I miked it close in front for lots of detail and way in back for fat
> reverb.

I don't know what your *reverb* mics are, but if they are cardioids, try
switching to or just adding a pair of small omnis. You will probably get fat
reverb while can micing closer at the same time.

>>> Using a single pair was not a option for esthetic reasons.

>> If you've got just one performance to work with, multitrack recording
>> and multiple mics allow you to defer many critical choices until
>> later on.

> It was not a performance, just a recording session--albeit a quick
> one. We recorded most in one take or just a short overlap over
> missed spots. Counting setup and breakdown I was there about three
> hours for about 70 minutes of usable content. (!)

I don't know which way you're going with this, but my recording equipment is
on site and the mics are in place at the beginning of the day. I spend more
than 4 hours running the sound board for rehearsals and the service, and get
about 45 minutes of music.

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scotfraser@aol.com (ScotFraser) wrote in
news:20040727023515.19209.00002442@mb-m04.aol.com:

> << Waveform distortion? In one of MY recordings? Perish the thought!
> >>
>
> I gather the use of the word "Clip" triggered the image of overdriven
> ADCs.

As one of "those classical guys" I let the performer make all the
distortion he wants, but try my damndest not to add any on my end.

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"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in
news:tNKdnZt17pMkrZvcRVn-ig@comcast.com:

> I used to do stuff like that until I learned more about how to use
> Audition. Now I just click block properties and shave a some
> milliseconds off the time.

Same result, only this is permanent. Highlighting a block in single file
view and pressing delete is about as easy. The advantage is that a few
years from now when I pull out this session again I don't have to have
Audition to align the files.

> I don't know what your *reverb* mics are, but if they are cardioids,
> try switching to or just adding a pair of small omnis. You will
> probably get fat reverb while can micing closer at the same time.

I once used cardioids, but now I stick to omnis for the back tracks.
Contrary to "organ tradition" my front mics are always cardioid or hypers
because of the placement of the front chambers on this instrument.

>> It was not a performance, just a recording session--albeit a quick
>> one. We recorded most in one take or just a short overlap over
>> missed spots. Counting setup and breakdown I was there about three
>> hours for about 70 minutes of usable content. (!)
>
> I don't know which way you're going with this, but my recording
> equipment is on site and the mics are in place at the beginning of the
> day. I spend more than 4 hours running the sound board for rehearsals
> and the service, and get about 45 minutes of music.

I brought my recorder in, ran cables and placed microphones, recorded the
program, packed up the gear and had it back in the car in about 3 hours.
Getting over an hour of content was mostly due to the professionalism of
the organist who had everything ready, and slightly due to my experience in
this hall, knowing in advance where the good spots were.

I just found out that I get to learn the hall again next year, they're
expanding this $1.7 mil instrument again with a whole chamber of pipes in
the rear of the balcony.

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Carey Carlan wrote:
>
> I'm running SIR as a reverb plugin and it introduced about a 160 msec delay
> into the file. That plus the 90 msec distance made the quarter-second
> delay.
>
> I've tried cardioids near the front, but they don't have the beauty of
> omnis farther back. This hall is rather dry and I have to move WAY back to
> get enough blur for my liking.


So in effect you're using the room for the predelay?

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In article <Xns9533B4289AA2Agulfjoehotmailcom@207.69.154.203>, Carey
Carlan <gulfjoe@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Kurt Albershardt <kurt@nv.net> wrote in
> news:2mnnktFmq39fU3@uni-berlin.de:
>
> > Carey Carlan wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm running SIR as a reverb plugin and it introduced about a 160 msec
> >> delay into the file. That plus the 90 msec distance made the
> >> quarter-second delay.
> >>
> >> I've tried cardioids near the front, but they don't have the beauty
> >> of omnis farther back. This hall is rather dry and I have to move
> >> WAY back to get enough blur for my liking.
> >
> > So in effect you're using the room for the predelay?
>
> Not intentionally. It just takes moving the mics that far back to get the
> source going into the reverb that I'm looking for.

Carey, Did you record to a two track mix or have you the reverb mikes on
separate tracks? If the latter does Audition allow you to advance the
start time of the front pair with respect to that of the back pair?

I ask because I've recently done a couple of orchestral jobs in which I
had front and back pairs recorded into a multitrack setup on my DAW. I
played about with time aligning in this fashion.

Mind you the delays were much shorter than yours, in one case 17mS and in
the other (at a certain Cathedral) 8mS, and the second pair weren't there
for reverb pickup, they were for getting a bit more clarity from the back
of the orchestra.

--
Mike Clayton

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< The whole point of this thread was to see if
anybody could think of a creative use for that quarter-second delay. >>

For any sort of normal music I can't see anything more than about 90 msec
predelay being useful. For a weird effect, 250 could be cool. Maybe for evoking
the ambience of a football stadium.


Scott Fraser

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Carey Carlan" <gulfjoe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9535609ED5EC9gulfjoehotmailcom@207.69.154.206...
> m.clayton@it.canterbury.ac.nz (Mike Clayton) wrote in
> news:m.clayton-2907042141340001@mcl47.tacacs.canterbury.ac.nz:
>
> >> Not intentionally. It just takes moving the mics that far back to
> >> get the source going into the reverb that I'm looking for.
> >
> > Carey, Did you record to a two track mix or have you the reverb mikes
> > on separate tracks? If the latter does Audition allow you to advance
> > the start time of the front pair with respect to that of the back
> > pair?
> >
> > I ask because I've recently done a couple of orchestral jobs in which
> > I had front and back pairs recorded into a multitrack setup on my DAW.
> > I played about with time aligning in this fashion.
> >
> > Mind you the delays were much shorter than yours, in one case 17mS and
> > in the other (at a certain Cathedral) 8mS, and the second pair weren't
> > there for reverb pickup, they were for getting a bit more clarity from
> > the back of the orchestra.
>
> They are on separate tracks. The whole point of this thread was to see
if
> anybody could think of a creative use for that quarter-second delay. I
was
> having a ball listening to it here, but I did align it before sending off
> the first draft to the organist for her approval.

What if you fed the original signal to another 'verb (like SIR or some
other convolution plug) & set that one fairly short, with the tail just
billowing into the one that's 1/4 second away... blend each to taste...
kinda like a long hall with two distinct sets of reflections? Of course,
it's irrelevant if you're in a DAW & can align the 'verb anyway - you can
pretty much do whatever you want in that situation.
--


Neil Henderson
Saqqara Records
http://www.saqqararecords.com

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <evrOc.140563$eO.111355@edtnps89>,
Lorin David Schultz <Lorin@DAMNSPAM!v5v.ca> wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
>news:ceb4ng$g5a$1@panix2.panix.com...
>> In article <20040729111407.18203.00000690@mb-m03.aol.com>,
>>
>> "This is God. And when I'm in Atlanta, which is always, because I'm
>> omnipresent, I listen to all the radio stations at the same time,
>> because I'm omnipotent. But especially WREK, 91.1 on your FM dial."
>>
>> -- from the celebrity ID series
>
>
>That's HILARIOUS! Did you write that, or is there really a "Celebrity
>ID Series?"

I _think_ it was written by Henry Strickland at WREK. We also had a whole
stack of real celebrity IDs from various performers, most of which were
pretty straight. I think the only fake ones in the set were the one from
God and a very tasteless one from someone who claimed to be Michael Jackson.
We did have one from President Carter, that was actually Carter.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."