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PT drum editing proposition

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July 27, 2004 11:36:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Drum editing in PT with Beat Detective is purportedly cake. Drum editing in
Sonar is the bane of my existance (better with Nuendo, but still not ideal).
However, I don't have the desire or the means to get a new HD system. So my
random idea is as follows...

Can I buy a bottom of the line old core card (PC compatible) and run a version
of PT that has Beat Detective and Sound Replacer? I do not want to buy an
interface, since I'd just be importing files for editing. More specifically,
does the D24 core run under NT/XP? They are very affordable now, and since I
do not plan on doing any processing/tracking/mixing, why would I need a Mix
Core or better? Anyone know what this would cost roughly? If it won't work,
and my idea is worthless, let me know that too!


-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com
Anonymous
July 27, 2004 12:28:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

jsvice@aol.com (John) wrote in message news:<20040727033654.21272.00000420@mb-m18.aol.com>...
> Drum editing in PT with Beat Detective is purportedly cake. Drum editing in
> Sonar is the bane of my existance (better with Nuendo, but still not ideal).
> However, I don't have the desire or the means to get a new HD system. So my
> random idea is as follows...
>
> Can I buy a bottom of the line old core card (PC compatible) and run a version
> of PT that has Beat Detective and Sound Replacer? I do not want to buy an
> interface, since I'd just be importing files for editing. More specifically,
> does the D24 core run under NT/XP? They are very affordable now, and since I
> do not plan on doing any processing/tracking/mixing, why would I need a Mix
> Core or better? Anyone know what this would cost roughly? If it won't work,
> and my idea is worthless, let me know that too!

if you go to digidesign.com and check their compatibility documents
you can get all the info you need on D24, Mix, etc. compatibility with
Windows systems. I've always used Mac so i don't know offhand.

however, AFAIK, you cannot use a PT system without an interface, even
if you're not using the interface itself. for your purposes, i would
figure out what core your system is compatible with and just get the
cheapest interface you can find...maybe an 882 or 1st gen. ADAT
bridge...i don't know if the 442 worked with D24/Mix ( i think it
interfaced the same as the 882? i don't remember), but you could
probably score one of those pretty cheap.

the idea isn't bad, i'd check the 'Bay or put up a "WTB" post here
once you figure out what you need...

good luck
Anonymous
July 27, 2004 1:55:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <20040727033654.21272.00000420@mb-m18.aol.com> jsvice@aol.com writes:

> Can I buy a bottom of the line old core card (PC compatible) and run a version
> of PT that has Beat Detective and Sound Replacer? I do not want to buy an
> interface, since I'd just be importing files for editing.

I would bite the bullet and go the M-Box route. Use the box as a
hardware key to run the software. If you get old hardware, you'll be
stuck with old software that's not only no longer supported by
Digidesign, but not supported by third party developers.

While I don't think that anyone should make a casual investment in a
$20K+ ProTools system, to anyone who needs the capabilities and
support of ProTools, an M-Box and ProTools LE is a steal. How much
more can this cost even in the short run than getting old parts and
old software?

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Related resources
Anonymous
July 27, 2004 2:23:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I'm a Sonar guy who doensn't have any problems editing multiple drum parts.
Just curious what beat detective does that makes drum editing so much easier
that Sonar can't do?

Neil R

"transducr" <transducr@autonomous-robot.com> wrote in message
news:ac00ffb8.0407270728.3b1569d2@posting.google.com...
> jsvice@aol.com (John) wrote in message
news:<20040727033654.21272.00000420@mb-m18.aol.com>...
> > Drum editing in PT with Beat Detective is purportedly cake. Drum
editing in
> > Sonar is the bane of my existance (better with Nuendo, but still not
ideal).
> > However, I don't have the desire or the means to get a new HD system.
So my
> > random idea is as follows...
> >
> > Can I buy a bottom of the line old core card (PC compatible) and run a
version
> > of PT that has Beat Detective and Sound Replacer? I do not want to buy
an
> > interface, since I'd just be importing files for editing. More
specifically,
> > does the D24 core run under NT/XP? They are very affordable now, and
since I
> > do not plan on doing any processing/tracking/mixing, why would I need a
Mix
> > Core or better? Anyone know what this would cost roughly? If it won't
work,
> > and my idea is worthless, let me know that too!
>
> if you go to digidesign.com and check their compatibility documents
> you can get all the info you need on D24, Mix, etc. compatibility with
> Windows systems. I've always used Mac so i don't know offhand.
>
> however, AFAIK, you cannot use a PT system without an interface, even
> if you're not using the interface itself. for your purposes, i would
> figure out what core your system is compatible with and just get the
> cheapest interface you can find...maybe an 882 or 1st gen. ADAT
> bridge...i don't know if the 442 worked with D24/Mix ( i think it
> interfaced the same as the 882? i don't remember), but you could
> probably score one of those pretty cheap.
>
> the idea isn't bad, i'd check the 'Bay or put up a "WTB" post here
> once you figure out what you need...
>
> good luck
Anonymous
July 27, 2004 5:12:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< I do not want to buy an
interface, since I'd just be importing files for editing. >>




Wouldn't that be nice. Digi software won't boot without a digi interface
connected.


Joe Egan
EMP
Colchester, VT
www.eganmedia.com
Anonymous
July 27, 2004 6:14:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>I would bite the bullet and go the M-Box route

-thats still only going to get you the ability to run sound replacer (at an
additional cost). beat detective is TDM i thought.
scott spelbring | recording + interactive | dragonflyeast.com
Anonymous
July 27, 2004 6:29:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

>In article <20040727033654.21272.00000420@mb-m18.aol.com> jsvice@aol.com
>writes:
>
>> Can I buy a bottom of the line old core card (PC compatible) and run a
>version
>> of PT that has Beat Detective and Sound Replacer? I do not want to buy an
>> interface, since I'd just be importing files for editing.
>
>I would bite the bullet and go the M-Box route. Use the box as a
>hardware key to run the software. If you get old hardware, you'll be
>stuck with old software that's not only no longer supported by
>Digidesign, but not supported by third party developers.
>
>While I don't think that anyone should make a casual investment in a
>$20K+ ProTools system, to anyone who needs the capabilities and
>support of ProTools, an M-Box and ProTools LE is a steal. How much
>more can this cost even in the short run than getting old parts and
>old software?
>
>--
>I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
>However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
>lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
>you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
>and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
>

I don't think PTLE does Beat Detective though - does it?



Me at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm
July 27, 2004 7:20:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>Mike Rivers wrote:
>
>>In article <20040727033654.21272.00000420@mb-m18.aol.com> jsvice@aol.com
>>writes:
>>
>>> Can I buy a bottom of the line old core card (PC compatible) and run a
>>version
>>> of PT that has Beat Detective and Sound Replacer? I do not want to buy an
>>> interface, since I'd just be importing files for editing.
>>
>>I would bite the bullet and go the M-Box route. Use the box as a
>>hardware key to run the software. If you get old hardware, you'll be
>>stuck with old software that's not only no longer supported by
>>Digidesign, but not supported by third party developers.
>>
>>While I don't think that anyone should make a casual investment in a
>>$20K+ ProTools system, to anyone who needs the capabilities and
>>support of ProTools, an M-Box and ProTools LE is a steal. How much
>>more can this cost even in the short run than getting old parts and
>>old software?
>>
>>--
>>I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
>>However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
>>lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
>>you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
>>and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
>>
>
>I don't think PTLE does Beat Detective though - does it?
>
>
>
>Me at:
>http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm

That's my understanding. If PTLE had beat detective, then of course I'd go the
more modern route.

-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com
July 27, 2004 7:23:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>From: eganmedia@aol.com (EganMedia)

>Wouldn't that be nice. Digi software won't boot without a digi
>interfaceconnected.

Eh, so I buy an 882 or something. Hell I've seen 442's on eBay for under 30
bucks. Do you know if the D24 core runs under XP/NT? I can't find this nugget
of info on Digi's site.
-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com
Anonymous
July 27, 2004 10:28:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <20040727102934.16070.00001635@mb-m21.aol.com> mondoslug1@aol.comwaht writes:

> I don't think PTLE does Beat Detective though - does it?

I haven't the slightest idea, but people say it's just like the real
thing only missing a few features. (like TDM?)

If a program is popular, as apparently Beat Detective is, it's only a
matter of time before they make a version that runs on anything.
Either that or someone else will make a program that does what you
need to do and runs on the platform you have. Then in about a year
it'll be obolete. Life's like that.





--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
July 28, 2004 12:41:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>From: "Neil Rutman" neilrutman@bigfoot.com

>I'm a Sonar guy who doensn't have any problems editing multiple drum parts.
>Just curious what beat detective does that makes drum editing so much easier
>that Sonar can't do?
>
>Neil R
>

You're the only Sonar guy like that then ;) 

When I'm talking about editing drums, I mean splitting, moving, and x-fading at
least 8 tracks at once. Possibly a couple times per measure. The very fact
that Sonar lacks true group editing makes this a pain. Maybe I have a
desire/need to do more extensive editing that you do? Even in Nuendo, all I
have to do is group, slice, move, hit "x" (to crossfade). That is so much
easier than trying to keep tracks grouped in Sonar. Nuendo is great for the
automatic crossfades alone. Why drag 8 tracks, and manually x-fade each one,
when in Nuendo, all you do is one mouse movement, one keystroke. Infinitely
more efficient. Beat Detective, is better than that even. I still need to
know if I can run a D24 on XP. I'll check digi's site again.. maybe post in
the DUG.
-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com
July 28, 2004 12:41:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

John wrote:

> When I'm talking about editing drums, I mean splitting, moving, and
> x-fading at
> least 8 tracks at once. Possibly a couple times per measure.

Wow. I guess those of us who are fortunate enough to work with drummers
who can actually play their instrument should count our blessings.
Anonymous
July 28, 2004 12:55:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>>From: "Neil Rutman" neilrutman@bigfoot.com
>
>>I'm a Sonar guy who doensn't have any problems editing multiple drum parts.
>>Just curious what beat detective does that makes drum editing so much easier
>>that Sonar can't do?
>>
>>Neil R
>>
>
>You're the only Sonar guy like that then ;) 
>
>When I'm talking about editing drums, I mean splitting, moving, and x-fading
>at
>least 8 tracks at once. Possibly a couple times per measure. The very fact
>that Sonar lacks true group editing makes this a pain. Maybe I have a
>desire/need to do more extensive editing that you do? Even in Nuendo, all I
>have to do is group, slice, move, hit "x" (to crossfade). That is so much
>easier than trying to keep tracks grouped in Sonar. Nuendo is great for the
>automatic crossfades alone. Why drag 8 tracks, and manually x-fade each one,
>when in Nuendo, all you do is one mouse movement, one keystroke. Infinitely
>more efficient. Beat Detective, is better than that even. I still need to
>know if I can run a D24 on XP. I'll check digi's site again.. maybe post in
>the DUG.
>-John Vice
>www.summertimestudios.com


Not sire what D24 is eaxactly but from the site:
http://digidesign.com/compato/xp/mix/
July 28, 2004 1:07:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

check to see if beat detective works in Audiosuite version. then get
the Protools Mbox for $500, hook it up to a pc via usb, and run Beat
Detective as a native plugin. With the MBox you get Protools LE for
free. then you also have a serviceable stereo i/o box for laptop
field recording as well should you get inspired.
July 28, 2004 1:10:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

and just to put things in perspective. i think we sometimes get so
"cheap" and forget history. to run 24 tracks of excellent sound, you
needed a $30k 2 inch machine and a comparably-priced console, and
that's pricing things conservatively. now we sometimes grumble about
something costing $300, or even $50.
July 28, 2004 1:32:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>From: mondoslug1@aol.comwaht (Mondoslug1)

>Not sire what D24 is eaxactly but from the site:
>http://digidesign.com/compato/xp/mix/

The D24 was the Pro Tools core card before the Mix and HD cores. I believe it
was the core for the standard PT24 system (not the Mix|24) But from that link
it looks like the D24 should run fine under XP... I won't be able to use the
ultra-cheap 442 interface, but 882's aren't too pricey. I might just get the
ADAT bridge since I have a digital mixer anyway. Options, options.
-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com
Anonymous
July 28, 2004 1:46:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

John Vice wrote:

>>From: mondoslug1@aol.comwaht (Mondoslug1)
>
>>Not sire what D24 is eaxactly but from the site:
>>http://digidesign.com/compato/xp/mix/
>
>The D24 was the Pro Tools core card before the Mix and HD cores. I believe
>it
>was the core for the standard PT24 system (not the Mix|24) But from that
>link
>it looks like the D24 should run fine under XP... I won't be able to use the
>ultra-cheap 442 interface, but 882's aren't too pricey. I might just get the
>ADAT bridge since I have a digital mixer anyway. Options, options.
>-John Vice
>www.summertimestudios.com

Yeah I don't think the 882s are thought very fondly of these days sonically
speaking but I dunno.
July 28, 2004 5:44:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>John wrote:
>
>> When I'm talking about editing drums, I mean splitting, moving, and
>> x-fading at
>> least 8 tracks at once. Possibly a couple times per measure.
>
>Wow. I guess those of us who are fortunate enough to work with drummers
>who can actually play their instrument should count our blessings.
>
>

Well that's very true. I also want people to sound better than they actually
are. Maybe some of the things I hear and want to correct are things that the
general public might not notice, but I'm sure most of the critical ears around
here would notice.
-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com
July 28, 2004 5:50:22 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>From: mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers)

>In article <20040727102934.16070.00001635@mb-m21.aol.com>
>mondoslug1@aol.comwaht writes:
>
>> I don't think PTLE does Beat Detective though - does it?
>
>I haven't the slightest idea, but people say it's just like the real
>thing only missing a few features. (like TDM?)
>

Like TDM, unlimited tracks, Beat Detective... So basically, it lacks
everything that makes Pro Tools what it is. What people say this? A 15 yr old
in his spare bedroom with an M-Box? Come on Mike... Are you for real? <g>
-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com
July 28, 2004 8:56:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>From: genericaudioperson@hotmail.com (xy)

>check to see if beat detective works in Audiosuite version. then get
>the Protools Mbox for $500, hook it up to a pc via usb, and run Beat
>Detective as a native plugin. With the MBox you get Protools LE for
>free. then you also have a serviceable stereo i/o box for laptop
>field recording as well should you get inspired.

Digi makes it clear on their site that Beat Detective will stay TDM. I take
that to mean it won't run in PTLE or PT Free. If it was that easy someone
would have had the idea before me. (not that someone hasn't already, I just
haven't seen it)
-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com
Anonymous
July 28, 2004 9:44:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"John" <jsvice@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040728005617.22107.00000575@mb-m07.aol.com...
> >From: genericaudioperson@hotmail.com (xy)
>
> >check to see if beat detective works in Audiosuite version. then get
> >the Protools Mbox for $500, hook it up to a pc via usb, and run Beat
> >Detective as a native plugin. With the MBox you get Protools LE for
> >free. then you also have a serviceable stereo i/o box for laptop
> >field recording as well should you get inspired.
>
> Digi makes it clear on their site that Beat Detective will stay TDM. I
take
> that to mean it won't run in PTLE or PT Free. If it was that easy
someone
> would have had the idea before me. (not that someone hasn't already, I
just
> haven't seen it)

Just another way for them to "force" you into buying a $15k system as
opposed to a $2k system... the LE stuff is mostly just so much chum... I'm
not saying it's not useful - it just doesn't enable you to do everything
that people have come to expect from a finished product nowadays.
--


Neil Henderson
Saqqara Records
http://www.saqqararecords.com
Anonymous
July 28, 2004 12:51:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <20040727033654.21272.00000420@mb-m18.aol.com>,
jsvice@aol.com says...
> Drum editing in PT with Beat Detective is purportedly cake. Drum editing in
> Sonar is the bane of my existance (better with Nuendo, but still not ideal).

Have you tried Beat Quantizer (http://www.beatcreator.com)? I have not
used it or Beat Detective, but people who have seen both seem happy with
BQ, and it works with REX files, which Nuendo can open.

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?
Anonymous
July 28, 2004 3:23:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

The difference is that Beat Detective doesn't have RTAS support, so it's
TDM. PTLE only works with RTAS plugs, which aren't in such great supply as
TDM, although, being a newer "lower level" standard, RTAS supports higher
bit depths and sampling rates without upgrades. TDM can be a little complex
in that some plugs are the correct ones in name, but don't have the HD
compatibility yet, etc. RTAS doesn't support HD either, but it will support
whatever interfi you choose in order to run Pro Tools LE, and yes, it runs
on XP.

--
-----------

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio


"John" <jsvice@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040727112050.18077.00000634@mb-m03.aol.com...
> >Mike Rivers wrote:
> >
> >>In article <20040727033654.21272.00000420@mb-m18.aol.com> jsvice@aol.com
> >>writes:
> >>
> >>> Can I buy a bottom of the line old core card (PC compatible) and run a
> >>version
> >>> of PT that has Beat Detective and Sound Replacer? I do not want to
buy an
> >>> interface, since I'd just be importing files for editing.
> >>
> >>I would bite the bullet and go the M-Box route. Use the box as a
> >>hardware key to run the software. If you get old hardware, you'll be
> >>stuck with old software that's not only no longer supported by
> >>Digidesign, but not supported by third party developers.
> >>
> >>While I don't think that anyone should make a casual investment in a
> >>$20K+ ProTools system, to anyone who needs the capabilities and
> >>support of ProTools, an M-Box and ProTools LE is a steal. How much
> >>more can this cost even in the short run than getting old parts and
> >>old software?
> >>
> >>--
> >>I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
> >>However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> >>lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> >>you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> >>and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
> >>
> >
> >I don't think PTLE does Beat Detective though - does it?
> >
> >
> >
> >Me at:
> >http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm
>
> That's my understanding. If PTLE had beat detective, then of course I'd
go the
> more modern route.
>
> -John Vice
> www.summertimestudios.com
Anonymous
July 28, 2004 7:52:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <20040727214452.23098.00002545@mb-m07.aol.com> jsvice@aol.com writes:

> I also want people to sound better than they actually are.

I'd rather hear that they're not good enough to spend any more money
on. <g>

> Maybe some of the things I hear and want to correct are things that the
> general public might not notice, but I'm sure most of the critical ears around
> here would notice.

I realize this is getting way off topic but I wonder just who DOES
care about things that only the engineer who recorded it or the player
who played it thinks they hear? The listener has no before/after
comparison. If the drumming moves the song along and doesn't get in
the way, then it's good enough not to waste time on unless you're
getting paid for that time (I won't deny anyone a way to make a
living).

I'd rather move on to something else. Perhaps because I've never
worked on a project where I expected any more than a small handful of
sales, and those to fans who would buy anything that sounded like the
artist I don't have appreciation for the concept that a little change
that nobody will notice will make a bit of difference in the final
product. I know the drill, though. It's never just one small change,
it's hundreds and hundreds of small changes, essentially
reconstructing a part, that do make a difference. But if that's what
it takes to make a sale, I'd rather flip hamburgers.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 28, 2004 7:52:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <20040727215022.23098.00002546@mb-m07.aol.com> jsvice@aol.com writes:

> >I haven't the slightest idea, but people say it's just like the real
> >thing only missing a few features. (like TDM?)

> Like TDM, unlimited tracks, Beat Detective... So basically, it lacks
> everything that makes Pro Tools what it is. What people say this? A 15 yr old
> in his spare bedroom with an M-Box? Come on Mike... Are you for real? <g>

Sorry, I'm not part of the culture, I only read the articles and
postings. Is Beat Detective a Digidesign program? Does it ONLY run on
ProTools? If so, and if you absolutely need it, then you indeed
absolutely need ProTools. End of argument.

But there are many people who get a whole lot of work accomplished
without TDM and Beat Detective, and for whom 32 tracks is more than
enough. I could live with that, and I'm a 62 year old with an analog
studio that's occasionally augmented with digital things.

Most people who want ProTools at low cost is so they can collaborate
with other peole who have ProTools. The understanding is that there
will always be a place where you can take a project to get things done
that you can't do at home, and it's more cost effective to do a
certain amount of work at home and pay for outside help than to buy
the full blown system that allows you do anything you can dream of (as
long you keep shovelling money at it). In your case, you want a
capability at home that isn't covered in the budget version (at least
not with the specific program you want to use), so you need to look
elsewhere.

Since you haven't been flooded with replies saying "Yeah, I'm doing
that with a D24" I guess this approach isn't so popular, so you'll
need to be the pioneer, or at least attempt to interpret what
compatability information is available from Digidesign. Go for it.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 28, 2004 7:52:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <i3HNc.21309$cJ1.3081@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com> neil.henderson@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM writes:

> Just another way for them to "force" you into buying a $15k system as
> opposed to a $2k system... the LE stuff is mostly just so much chum... I'm
> not saying it's not useful - it just doesn't enable you to do everything
> that people have come to expect from a finished product nowadays.

Simple - the "finished product" costs $15K. The version that allows
someone to open a project crated on the $15K system in a $150/hour
studio, spend 50 hours getting the guitar part just right, saving half
the price of the full ProTools system in the process.

If you want to be a full-blown studio, you need to buy all the tools.
If Audition or Cubase or Cakewalk ran Beat Detective, I'm sure John
would have investigated those programs, but he's stuck on Beat
Detective.

I remember when the Digi001 and ProTools LE first came out, people
were complaining that it didn't have a time code "ruler" and that was
too simple a thing to leave out, forcing you to buy the full program
if you wanted to use it. Unfortunately, programs don't always come a
la carte. If a manufacturer comes up with an idea that makes his
product unique, naturally he wants to make the most money he can from
it since it won't be unique for very long.

Clearly there's only one Beat Detective, but is there no other program
that will let you accomplish the same end goal as well and as
efficiently?

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 28, 2004 9:05:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< Like TDM, unlimited tracks >>

TDM does not have unlimited tracks. It is 64 tracks until HD and thne it got a
bump to 128.

But TDN does have voices as does LE but LE will only play back 32 voices even
if you record 100 tracks.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"
Anonymous
July 28, 2004 10:33:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Roger wrote:

>The difference is that Beat Detective doesn't have RTAS support, so it's
>TDM. PTLE only works with RTAS plugs, which aren't in such great supply as
>TDM, although, being a newer "lower level" standard, RTAS supports higher
>bit depths and sampling rates without upgrades. TDM can be a little complex
>in that some plugs are the correct ones in name, but don't have the HD
>compatibility yet, etc. RTAS doesn't support HD either,

I thought HD could do the RTAS thing?





-----
Anonymous
July 29, 2004 12:00:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< I thought HD could do the RTAS thing? >>

TDM can use RTAS plug ins.



---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"
July 29, 2004 1:25:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>From: mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers)

>Since you haven't been flooded with replies saying "Yeah, I'm doing
>that with a D24" I guess this approach isn't so popular, so you'll
>need to be the pioneer, or at least attempt to interpret what
>compatability information is available from Digidesign. Go for it.

I've read the compatability info and asked some PT users. I can indeed get by
with the D24. I'm honestly not sure if my idea is decent or not. If I can do
it for under 500 bucks, then yes it is. It'll save me many hours of tedious
work that could better be spent doing more productive things like nailing my
feet to the floor.
-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com
Anonymous
July 29, 2004 1:25:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <20040728172516.10744.00001505@mb-m25.aol.com> jsvice@aol.com writes:

> I've read the compatability info and asked some PT users. I can indeed get by
> with the D24. I'm honestly not sure if my idea is decent or not. If I can do
> it for under 500 bucks, then yes it is.

That sounds like a fair analysis. Just don't expect that when the next
version of Beat Detective comes out, it will run on your setup. It
might, but then it might not. Digidesign has a history of dropping
support for old hardware.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
July 29, 2004 1:28:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>From: mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers)

>If you want to be a full-blown studio, you need to buy all the tools.
>If Audition or Cubase or Cakewalk ran Beat Detective, I'm sure John
>would have investigated those programs, but he's stuck on Beat
>Detective.

They don't. And unfortunately for now, I am.

>Clearly there's only one Beat Detective, but is there no other program
>that will let you accomplish the same end goal as well and as
>efficiently?
>

There are some standalone editing programs specifially for drums... I'm
thinking Beat Creator is the name... But, they aren't $50 programs. More
like a couple hundred. So, why not get something established, that I know
works, and learn more about PT in the process? If there are alternate
suggestions to Beat Detective, I'm all ears, but I have looked into this before
just now.
-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com
Anonymous
July 29, 2004 2:27:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< If there are alternate
suggestions to Beat Detective, I'm all ears, but I have looked into this before
just now. >>

I am baffled that someone else hasn't made a plug in like beat detective.





---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"
July 29, 2004 3:19:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

John wrote:

>>John wrote:
>>
>>> When I'm talking about editing drums, I mean splitting, moving, and
>>> x-fading at
>>> least 8 tracks at once. Possibly a couple times per measure.
>>
>>Wow. I guess those of us who are fortunate enough to work with drummers
>>who can actually play their instrument should count our blessings.
>>
>>
>
> Well that's very true. I also want people to sound better than they
> actually
> are. Maybe some of the things I hear and want to correct are things that
> the general public might not notice, but I'm sure most of the critical
> ears around here would notice.


Maybe so, but two edits per measure? If you're the drummer in this band ,
then I apologize in advance, 'cause I sure don't want to hurt anybody's
feelings. If it's a gig for hire, then I hope you're getting a really good
hourly rate for your trouble. But if you need to do 2 edits per bar on
eight tracks, wouldn't you be better off just sequencing the drum tracks to
begin with? I'd be real surprised if they sound like real drums after all
that manipulation anyway.
Anonymous
July 29, 2004 7:02:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< Just don't expect that when the next
version of Beat Detective comes out, it will run on your setup. It
might, but then it might not. >>

I don't believe it's changed since it was new.

It's auto tune for beats.


---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"
Anonymous
July 29, 2004 7:07:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I was going to mention Beat Detective isn't a "plug in" it's more of a menu
item on a tdm system.


---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"
July 29, 2004 8:02:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>From: agent86 maxwellsmart@control.gov

>> Well that's very true. I also want people to sound better than they
>> actually
>> are. Maybe some of the things I hear and want to correct are things that
>> the general public might not notice, but I'm sure most of the critical
>> ears around here would notice.
>
>
>Maybe so, but two edits per measure? If you're the drummer in this band ,
>then I apologize in advance, 'cause I sure don't want to hurt anybody's
>feelings. If it's a gig for hire, then I hope you're getting a really good
>hourly rate for your trouble. But if you need to do 2 edits per bar on
>eight tracks, wouldn't you be better off just sequencing the drum tracks to
>begin with? I'd be real surprised if they sound like real drums after all
>that manipulation anyway.


Reading back my post it looks like I mean 2 edits every measure. That's not
the case. I mean there are measures where I'll make more than one edit.
Sorry.

-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com
July 29, 2004 8:22:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>From: egghd@aol.com (EggHd)
>Date: 7/28/2004 6:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time

>
><< If there are alternate
>suggestions to Beat Detective, I'm all ears, but I have looked into this
>before
>just now. >>
>
>I am baffled that someone else hasn't made a plug in like beat detective.

Tell me about it! Doesn't that seem like a void in the market? How is it
that SW companies have overlooked this... (rhetorical)
-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com
Anonymous
July 29, 2004 8:38:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< Doesn't that seem like a void in the market? How is it
that SW companies have overlooked this... >>

It looks like what Recycle does to loops in terms of splicing based on a
threshold. Someone is doing this to loops (the auto splicing)




---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"
July 29, 2004 8:57:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>It looks like what Recycle does to loops in terms of splicing based on a
>threshold. Someone is doing this to loops (the auto splicing)

>From: egghd@aol.com (EggHd)
>Date: 7/29/2004 12:38 AM Eastern

Loop editing is built in to some DAWs already. i.e. Cubase SX. The loop
editing there is pretty nice. Places markers at transients, adjustable
thresholds.. just what you would need. Why no one but Digi extrapolated this
for use on entire drum tracks, is bizarre.
-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com
July 29, 2004 11:55:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>From: genericaudioperson@hotmail.com (xy)

>
>http://www.beatcreator.com/English/frames.html
>
>beatquantizer version 1.02. $250

I used Beat Creator Pro beta (beat quantizer now) several months ago. I wasn't
overly impressed, but then again, it was a beta. I'll see if they have a newer
demo version of this prog.
-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com
Anonymous
July 30, 2004 4:01:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"agent86" wrote:
<snip>
> Maybe so, but two edits per measure? If you're the drummer in this band ,
> then I apologize in advance, 'cause I sure don't want to hurt anybody's
> feelings. If it's a gig for hire, then I hope you're getting a really
good
> hourly rate for your trouble. But if you need to do 2 edits per bar on
> eight tracks, wouldn't you be better off just sequencing the drum tracks
to
> begin with? I'd be real surprised if they sound like real drums after all
> that manipulation anyway.
>

They probably won't. People do things in the name of being "meticulous" that
instead just illuminates what was uninteresting about the original design of
the part (because if the design is great, the small flaws won't matter, and
if it's not, the "perfection" will emphasize that).

Not that this is necessarily the case with the original poster.

-jw
Anonymous
July 31, 2004 12:58:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

How do the capabilities of Drumagog stand up? Seems like if you export to MIDI
you can quantize easily, and drumagog lets you replace samples with other
drums.
Sounds similar, with just a couple more steps, but I haven't used beat
detective. Am I missing something?
Thanks,
-lee-
July 31, 2004 8:31:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>From: leoaw3@aol.comnospam (Leoaw3)

>
>How do the capabilities of Drumagog stand up?

I've never used it to be honest. Hopefully someone with some personal
experience on that one will pop up. I thought Drumagog was a sound replacer..
Is it more than that?


Seems like if you export to
>MIDI
>you can quantize easily, and drumagog lets you replace samples with other
>drums.

Export what to MIDI?

>Sounds similar, with just a couple more steps, but I haven't used beat
>detective. Am I missing something?
>Thanks,
>-lee-



-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 5:04:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

John Vice wrote:
>Export what to MIDI?

I believe Drumagog can export the trigger for the samples to MIDI. You can
then move those triggers around and quantize them, etc. and then feed them
back in as triggers for the actual drum sample.

-lee-
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 7:54:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>You can
>then move those triggers around and quantize them, etc. and then feed them
>back in as triggers for the actual drum sample.

hey lee-

beat detective works more with the actual files than replacing them. it looks
for transients then shifts those to your "grid". this requires tracking drums
to a click, etc. drums do still sound like drums though if you get too in depth
then you start to actually hear all of the cuts and fades that are required to
put it back together. beat detective is a great tool, especially when working
with real drums and loops. keeps everything straight so you avoid flams between
instruments. i would venture to say 9 out of 10 tracks on the radio right now
have been beat detected and edited (pop and rock). its something that i end up
doing almost every day of my life! :) 

how're things?

-s
scott spelbring | recording + interactive | dragonflyeast.com
!