"Faking" vari-speed with Digital Performer or Cubase SL

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"David Cavallo" <davidcavallo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2af6a9.0407282056.486e5e41@posting.google.com...
>
> Anyhow, with my sophisticated digital setup -- slaved Mac w/MOTU
> Digital Performer 4.12 synched with an XP PC running Cubase SL-- I'm
> at a loss as to how to recreate the vari-speed effect in *REAL TIME*.
>

What I do is bounce the whole mix down to a stereo track. Then put a simple
pitch shift plugin on that track and set to whatever I need (a whole step
lower for instance) and let the singer sing to that. Then just put a pitch
shift plugin on the singer's track and delete the bounced mix (and go back
the "regular" mix tracks). If you can get away with it (if you don't really
notice the difference between the two) you might just do that track for the
parts he can't hit and record the parts he can his as normal. The less
processing the better IMO. BTW, that pitch slider on the mix works in
real-time and you can change it on the fly.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

That's just like programmers. Add a fancy new feature, and take out the old
simple one because the new one is "better" (except when it isn't). I'm a
programmer, too, but I try not to be like that =).

On 28 Jul 2004 21:56:25 -0700, davidcavallo@hotmail.com (David Cavallo) wrote:

>(Apologies if this topic has been addressed in a previous posting.
>I've spent the better part of two days doing USENET and web searches
>and have just not found the information I need...)
>
>Here's the rub: I'm banging my head against the wall trying to
>recreate the "vari-speed" technique so very common in most analog
>recording studios. Many folks would call it "the oldest trick in the
>book," really--it's been implemented by countless musicians, producers
>and engineers to help a singer hit higher notes, create unusual
>harmonies, fatten instrument sounds, cook up chipmunks-- you know, all
>around studio weirdness and wondrous fakery that makes this stuff fun.
>
>Of course it's remarkably simple to do on an analog tape machine--just
>use that simple slider to slow the tape down (or up) press record and
>go. The track plays back at a correspondingly lower (or higher)
>pitch, and hitting that previously unattainable high C is now a
>breeze! Play the track back at regular speed, and voila. Sure, it's a
>little synthetic, but I doubt anyone told The Beatles that...
>
>Anyhow, with my sophisticated digital setup -- slaved Mac w/MOTU
>Digital Performer 4.12 synched with an XP PC running Cubase SL-- I'm
>at a loss as to how to recreate the vari-speed effect in *REAL TIME*.
>
>I mean, there are various utilities available for pitch correction
>(the godsend Auto Tune, natch) and other Pitch Shift effects, and they
>DO work well---but only in post. I can create harmonies and monkey
>with pitch after the track is recorded, but not on the fly.
>
>So, is there a simple way to just slow down the playback of the track
>-- WITHOUT the computer adjusting the pitch of the track to compensate
>for the time change -- and get a "fake" vari-speed thing happening in
>Digital Performer or Cubase SL?
>
>Thanks so much,
>David

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:44:57 +0000, Blind Joni wrote:

>>> Anyhow, with my sophisticated digital setup -- slaved Mac w/MOTU
>>> Digital Performer 4.12 synched with an XP PC running Cubase SL-- I'm
>>> at a loss as to how to recreate the vari-speed effect in *REAL TIME*.
>>>
>
> This works in Samplitude..it's called..
> "vari-speed."

Can you record with vari-speed on in Samplitude, or is it just for during
playback?

>
>
> John A. Chiara
> SOS Recording Studio
> Live Sound Inc.
> Albany, NY
> www.sosrecording.net
> 518-449-1637

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>I guess this is easily available in Pro Tools.
>
>
>Scott Fraser

No it isn't. It's not available at all in real time.

It seems to me the solution is in the domain of the converter or clock source.
Adding a variable rate master clock would be the equivalent of a pitch control
on a tape machine. It would also similarly shift frequency response, but like
tape, probably not enough to matter much in most cases. I don't know why none
of the converters or clocks available for PT/DP have implemented such a feature
yet. On the face of it it would seem quite simple (and useful) but I suppose
there may be good technical reasons why it's impractical that I'm unaware of.
It certainly was adequately implemented in Adats, DA88s and the like, which
aside from using tape for storage are fundamentally the same types of recording
devices.

One thing that is easily done is to temporarily change the converter's sample
rate from 44.1 to 48K (or 88.2 to 96, etc.) or vice versa. It's roughly a 10%
change either way, in the neighborhood of 2 semitones. If you're working at
48K, changing to 44.1 would give the singer a good deal easier time on the high
notes.


Ted Spencer, NYC

"No amount of classical training will ever teach you what's so cool about
"Tighten Up" by Archie Bell And The Drells" -author unknown

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Yes it is... In the Session Setup Window if you own a USD, Synch I/O or SSD.

Rail
--
Recording Engineer/Software Developer
Rail Jon Rogut Software
http://www.railjonrogut.com
mailto:rail@railjonrogut.com

"Ted Spencer" <prestokid@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040729101239.04176.00001619@mb-m26.aol.com...
> >I guess this is easily available in Pro Tools.
> >
> >
> >Scott Fraser
>
> No it isn't. It's not available at all in real time.
>
> It seems to me the solution is in the domain of the converter or clock
source.
> Adding a variable rate master clock would be the equivalent of a pitch
control
> on a tape machine. It would also similarly shift frequency response, but
like
> tape, probably not enough to matter much in most cases. I don't know why
none
> of the converters or clocks available for PT/DP have implemented such a
feature
> yet. On the face of it it would seem quite simple (and useful) but I
suppose
> there may be good technical reasons why it's impractical that I'm unaware
of.
> It certainly was adequately implemented in Adats, DA88s and the like,
which
> aside from using tape for storage are fundamentally the same types of
recording
> devices.
>
> One thing that is easily done is to temporarily change the converter's
sample
> rate from 44.1 to 48K (or 88.2 to 96, etc.) or vice versa. It's roughly a
10%
> change either way, in the neighborhood of 2 semitones. If you're working
at
> 48K, changing to 44.1 would give the singer a good deal easier time on the
high
> notes.
>
>
> Ted Spencer, NYC
>
> "No amount of classical training will ever teach you what's so cool about
> "Tighten Up" by Archie Bell And The Drells" -author unknown

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< You need to clock to an MDM like an ADAT M20 which has a VSO.. adjust the
VSO on the M20 and set your software to clock via the digital input.
>>

How far can you go before the DAW refuses to recognize the clock as within
range?

Scott Fraser

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

prestokid@aol.com (Ted Spencer) wrote in message news:<

> No it isn't. It's not available at all in real time.
>
> yet. On the face of it it would seem quite simple (and useful) but I suppose
> there may be good technical reasons why it's impractical that I'm unaware of.

This is possible in Ableton Live. If you're not familiar with Live,
it's a program that was developed for Live performance and it does
realtime src on each track. There are different src modes that can
timestretch audio loops so you can play clips of different tempos
together. But one of the src modes is called "Repitch" and it causes
clips to respond to the playback tempo just like a tape reacts to the
playback speed (higher-faster, slower-lower).

So if you have access to Live you can drop your multitrack wav files
from Performer or wherever, set each track to "repitch" mode, and
simply adjust the main tempo up and down. The tracks will react like
multitrack tape. You can slow down the whole mix, do your overdubs,
speed the whole track back up and render the new tracks out as wavs to
bring back into your main DAW.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Live doesn't do true VSO.. it slices the audio into tiny slices and time
stretches each slice with a crossfade between each slice.. not exactly a
purist approach to audio manipulation.. but definitely a great tool for
making loops.

Rail
--
Recording Engineer/Software Developer
Rail Jon Rogut Software
http://www.railjonrogut.com
mailto:rail@railjonrogut.com

"initialsBB" <britainsbeards@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e21d882.0407291146.72dd500e@posting.google.com...
> prestokid@aol.com (Ted Spencer) wrote in message news:<
>
> > No it isn't. It's not available at all in real time.
> >
> > yet. On the face of it it would seem quite simple (and useful) but I
suppose
> > there may be good technical reasons why it's impractical that I'm
unaware of.
>
> This is possible in Ableton Live. If you're not familiar with Live,
> it's a program that was developed for Live performance and it does
> realtime src on each track. There are different src modes that can
> timestretch audio loops so you can play clips of different tempos
> together. But one of the src modes is called "Repitch" and it causes
> clips to respond to the playback tempo just like a tape reacts to the
> playback speed (higher-faster, slower-lower).
>
> So if you have access to Live you can drop your multitrack wav files
> from Performer or wherever, set each track to "repitch" mode, and
> simply adjust the main tempo up and down. The tracks will react like
> multitrack tape. You can slow down the whole mix, do your overdubs,
> speed the whole track back up and render the new tracks out as wavs to
> bring back into your main DAW.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>Varispeed is dependent upon changing the clock of the digital system.. you
>increase the sample rate to play back faster.. and decrease the sample rate
>to play back slower...

Right, obviously.

>so the extents are defined by the hardware and the
>session sample rate.

What are the extents with the hardware you're using? Is it a USD?

>The values are displayed as semitones.cents -- if you
>have a Pro Tools 6.4 manual you can see a diagram on page 553.

It's on page 523 in my 6.0 manual, but it says to refer to the USD manual for
details, and I don't have a USD (or SSD). It appears from the illustration that
only a small amount of speeding up might be available, but a much larger
downward amount is. Is that correct?

>VSO isn't something that can be done purely in software without altering the
>quality of the audio.... by varying the clock audio quality is preserved.
>
> Rail

Right, although frequency response limits will rise and fall with the rate,
assuming the anti-aliasing filters follow the clock.


Ted Spencer, NYC

"No amount of classical training will ever teach you what's so cool about
"Tighten Up" by Archie Bell And The Drells" -author unknown

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

The USD has a low limit of 35kHz and a upper limit of 50kHz... but if your
I/O can't attain that.. it'll limit you.. for instance a 192 allows the
clock to be adjusted a maximum of 10%.

Rail
--
Recording Engineer/Software Developer
Rail Jon Rogut Software
http://www.railjonrogut.com
mailto:rail@railjonrogut.com

"Ted Spencer" <prestokid@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040729234636.09145.00000647@mb-m01.aol.com...
> >Varispeed is dependent upon changing the clock of the digital system..
you
> >increase the sample rate to play back faster.. and decrease the sample
rate
> >to play back slower...
>
> Right, obviously.
>
> >so the extents are defined by the hardware and the
> >session sample rate.
>
> What are the extents with the hardware you're using? Is it a USD?
>
> >The values are displayed as semitones.cents -- if you
> >have a Pro Tools 6.4 manual you can see a diagram on page 553.
>
> It's on page 523 in my 6.0 manual, but it says to refer to the USD manual
for
> details, and I don't have a USD (or SSD). It appears from the illustration
that
> only a small amount of speeding up might be available, but a much larger
> downward amount is. Is that correct?
>
> >VSO isn't something that can be done purely in software without altering
the
> >quality of the audio.... by varying the clock audio quality is preserved.
> >
> > Rail
>
> Right, although frequency response limits will rise and fall with the
rate,
> assuming the anti-aliasing filters follow the clock.
>
>
> Ted Spencer, NYC
>
> "No amount of classical training will ever teach you what's so cool about
> "Tighten Up" by Archie Bell And The Drells" -author unknown

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>So you can't crank the speed around during playback? Can you record at
>non-standard speed in PT?
>
>Scott Fraser
>

Check back a few posts to Rail John Rogut's comments. Turns out that a limited
amount of varispeed in PT is possible if you have one of Digi's external
clock/sync devices (SSD, USD etc.). It's controlled in the "session setup"
dialog box. Not sure about cranking it around during playback, but I think not.


Ted Spencer, NYC

"No amount of classical training will ever teach you what's so cool about
"Tighten Up" by Archie Bell And The Drells" -author unknown

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Rail Jon Rogut" <railro@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<VTfOc.2435$9Y6.1986@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> Live doesn't do true VSO.. it slices the audio into tiny slices and time
> stretches each slice with a crossfade between each slice.. not exactly a
> purist approach to audio manipulation.. but definitely a great tool for
> making loops.

Not if you set the "warp mode" to "repitch". The timestretching
method you describe is definitely an option (there are timestretching
settings with different qualities for beats, tones, etc.) but one of
the options is "repitch" which works exactly like a VSO. Could you
explain why you don't believe this is a "true VSO"? As far as I can
see, once a sound is digitized the only way to speed up / pitch up or
slow down / pitch down is to play the file back at a different sample
rate. You can rig up a hardware solution to accomplish this or simply
do it in software. What's the difference? By definition the sound
quality will be somewhat effected because you're changing the sample
rate, but if the sound is already digitized then that's a given.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>Here's the rub: I'm banging my head against the wall trying to
>recreate the "vari-speed" technique so very common in most analog
>recording studios. Many folks would call it "the oldest trick in the
>book," really--it's been implemented by countless musicians, producers
>and engineers to help a singer hit higher notes, create unusual
>harmonies, fatten instrument sounds, cook up chipmunks-- you know, all
>around studio weirdness and wondrous fakery that makes this stuff fun.

If you want to do it in exactly the same way it was done on an
analogue system, (or an emulation of this) you're going to be
disappointed.

If, however, you want to pitch-shift without retaining tempo, this is
trivially easy in every digital recording program I've ever seen.
Look for.....er......"Pitch Shift" in the menus. Possibly not in
real-time. Does this matter?

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <rHQOc.2112$T_6.252@edtnps89> Lorin@DAMNSPAM!v5v.ca writes:

> I'd rather retune the cowbell than get into external variable clocking.

Each one requires a hammer. Take your pick. <g>


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo