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lead-free solder and XLR plugs

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Anonymous
July 31, 2004 8:34:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I tried to use some lead free solder but it doesn't seem to 'run' on melting
as well as the regular stuff. Anyone else used it successfully and able to
make a compelling case for using it over standard solder ?
Also, is it recommended to tie the shield braid to the steel case of the XLR
plug...or is this asking for hum problems when the cable lies on the ground
? I recall reading that Neumann U89 mics require this earthed case
arrangement to work correctly...is this true ?
Thanks,
Ray


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Anonymous
July 31, 2004 8:34:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Why are you using lead-free solder? Do you expect to be licking the solder
joints?
Anonymous
July 31, 2004 8:34:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:34:14 +0930, "Ray Thomas"
<rthomas@chariot.net.au> wrote:

>I tried to use some lead free solder but it doesn't seem to 'run' on melting
>as well as the regular stuff. Anyone else used it successfully and able to
>make a compelling case for using it over standard solder ?
>Also, is it recommended to tie the shield braid to the steel case of the XLR
>plug...or is this asking for hum problems when the cable lies on the ground
>? I recall reading that Neumann U89 mics require this earthed case
>arrangement to work correctly...is this true ?
>Thanks,


Are you doing so much soldering that you feel contact with lead solder
might be an issue?

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
Related resources
Anonymous
July 31, 2004 8:34:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <10gn731gmv9mc05@corp.supernews.com> williams@nwlink.com writes:

> Why are you using lead-free solder? Do you expect to be licking the solder
> joints?

There are some places where that's all you can buy these days. I think
that's all Radio Shack sells now. And if it's you job to be a
solderer, you boss may be obligated to provide it for your use.

We have laws now to protect people from their own stupidity. Ain't
this a great country?




--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 31, 2004 8:34:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

The problem is sniffing the fumes when not working under a vent hood....
Not likely a problem unless you are in a production line environment. Also
the landfill issues with the end of life product.

Rgds:
Eric


"William Sommerwerck" <williams@nwlink.com> wrote in message
news:10gn731gmv9mc05@corp.supernews.com...
> Why are you using lead-free solder? Do you expect to be licking the solder
> joints?
>
Anonymous
July 31, 2004 8:34:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Not likely a problem unless you are in a production line environment.
> Also the landfill issues with the end of life product.

That's what confuses me. People claim lead is leeched out of the solder on
circuit boards, etc, and winds up in streams, drinking water, etc. This is
plausible, but does it happen enough to be a significant environmental hazard?
Anonymous
July 31, 2004 8:34:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"William Sommerwerck" <williams@nwlink.com> wrote in message
news:10gnps6ilunmj09@corp.supernews.com...
> > Not likely a problem unless you are in a production line environment.
> > Also the landfill issues with the end of life product.
>
> That's what confuses me. People claim lead is leeched out of the solder on
> circuit boards, etc, and winds up in streams, drinking water, etc. This is
> plausible, but does it happen enough to be a significant environmental
hazard?

The usual hand-waving (or hand-wringing?)
I've never seen any data that would stand up
to scientific scrutiny.
Anonymous
July 31, 2004 9:24:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Ray Thomas"
>
> I tried to use some lead free solder but it doesn't seem to 'run' on
melting
> as well as the regular stuff. Anyone else used it successfully and able to
> make a compelling case for using it over standard solder ?


** Lead free solder works OK when the items to be soldered are already
tinned and bright - ie new component leads and tinned PCB tracks and the
like. But where the items are not tinned or are old and a bit oxidised I
find lead free is slow to whet the surfaces and needs more time and a higher
heat setting on the iron. The end result may not look pretty. For general
soldering including cable making and repair work I would use the normal
60/40 resin cored stuff.

However, for re-working a PCB and for increased joint strength, especially
with components that run hot, lead free is worth considering. The stuff I
have is Multicore brand - 99.7 % tin, rest copper.





.......... Phil
Anonymous
July 31, 2004 9:24:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

No, do not connect the case to Pin 1. In many instances this will result in
ground loops.

"Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:2n0vp7Fs17tmU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Ray Thomas"
> >
> > I tried to use some lead free solder but it doesn't seem to 'run' on
> melting
> > as well as the regular stuff. Anyone else used it successfully and able
to
> > make a compelling case for using it over standard solder ?
>
>
> ** Lead free solder works OK when the items to be soldered are already
> tinned and bright - ie new component leads and tinned PCB tracks and the
> like. But where the items are not tinned or are old and a bit oxidised I
> find lead free is slow to whet the surfaces and needs more time and a
higher
> heat setting on the iron. The end result may not look pretty. For general
> soldering including cable making and repair work I would use the normal
> 60/40 resin cored stuff.
>
> However, for re-working a PCB and for increased joint strength,
especially
> with components that run hot, lead free is worth considering. The stuff I
> have is Multicore brand - 99.7 % tin, rest copper.
>
>
>
>
>
> ......... Phil
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Anonymous
July 31, 2004 9:24:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Tim Padrick <Padrick@comcast.net> wrote:
> No, do not connect the case to Pin 1. In many instances this will result in
> ground loops.

Are you sure about this when it comes to Neumann Mics with transformer
outputs? I am not clear if the OP meant connecting pin 1 to the case of
the XLR connector in the mic or the cable.

I hope that Doug Walker or David Satz or Karl Winkler will properly answer
the question.

If we are talking about the connector of the cable being used with the U89:
You may find that connecting pin one to the case of the XLR connector will
reduce the dreaded RFI problems inherant in these mics. Or, another
method could be to connect the shield to of the cable to case of the
connector and run pin 1/mic signal-ground independantly on a separate
conductor inside the cable. Then there is the double shield mic cable
stuff from Gotham. It is all very complicated...

Rob R.
Anonymous
July 31, 2004 9:24:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Re: lead-free solder and XLR plugs

Group: rec.audio.pro Date: Sat, Jul 31, 2004, 1:46pm (EDT+4) From:
reedijk@hera.med.utoronto.ca (Rob Reedijk)

No, do not connect the case to Pin 1. In many instances this will result
in ground loops.
Are you sure about this when it comes to Neumann Mics with transformer
outputs? I am not clear if the OP meant connecting pin 1 to the case of
the XLR connector in the mic or the cable.

I hope that Doug Walker or David Satz or Karl Winkler will properly
answer the question.<<<<<<<

If Karl does reply it won't be on behalf of Sennheiser/Neumann. Last I
heard he is now with Lectrosonic in New Mexico.


Eric
Anonymous
July 31, 2004 9:24:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <25782-410BBBDE-688@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> Audioetc@webtv.net writes:

> If Karl does reply it won't be on behalf of Sennheiser/Neumann. Last I
> heard he is now with Lectrosonic in New Mexico.

That's a switch, but not many people last very long in those kind of
jobs. Anyone know where Mike McRoberts is now?



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
July 31, 2004 9:52:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Eric K. Weber" <eric-nospam@webermusic.com> wrote in message
news:gUQOc.356$T8.22344@news.uswest.net...
> The problem is sniffing the fumes when not working under a vent hood....
> Not likely a problem unless you are in a production line environment.

Probably not a problem at all; lead doesn't vaporize significantly at
soldering temperatures (otherwise you couldn't use it for soldering). The
fumes are from the rosin.

> Also
> the landfill issues with the end of life product.

That, on the other hand, could be an issue.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
July 31, 2004 10:20:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

From: mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers)

(responding to the question):
>> Why are you using lead-free solder?


>There are some places where that's all you can buy these days. I think
>that's all Radio Shack sells now. And if it's you job to be a
>solderer, you boss may be obligated to provide it for your use.
>
>We have laws now to protect people from their own stupidity. Ain't
>this a great country?

Well, getting lead out of "the environment" isn't so stupid, at least by
itself.

Plumbing supply house. The coils are thick for fine solder work compared to
"radio solder", but 60/40 is still available. Not in Lowes, Domed Heap-O
plumbing aisle (idiot factor, as mentioned). --TP
July 31, 2004 10:20:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Tom Paterson wrote:

>
> Well, getting lead out of "the environment" isn't so stupid, at least by
> itself.
>
> Plumbing supply house. The coils are thick for fine solder work compared
> to "radio solder", but 60/40 is still available. Not in Lowes, Domed
> Heap-O plumbing aisle (idiot factor, as mentioned). --TP


NO NO NO NO NO !!!!!
The thick stuff for plumbing has an acid flux core & should not be used for
electronic/electrical connections. It is usually lead free these days.
But that's more important for drinking water supply lines than for
electronic work.
Anonymous
July 31, 2004 10:40:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Thanks Tim...that's what I suspected ! Phil, I got my lead-free solder from
Dick Smith shop in Adelaide...probably same stuff ?
Ray
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------
"Tim Padrick" <Padrick@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:i4Odnb9gnsA105bcRVn-rQ@comcast.com...
> No, do not connect the case to Pin 1. In many instances this will result
in
> ground loops.
>
> "Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
> news:2n0vp7Fs17tmU1@uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "Ray Thomas"
> > >
> > > I tried to use some lead free solder but it doesn't seem to 'run' on
> > melting
> > > as well as the regular stuff. Anyone else used it successfully and
able
> to
> > > make a compelling case for using it over standard solder ?
> >
> >
> > ** Lead free solder works OK when the items to be soldered are already
> > tinned and bright - ie new component leads and tinned PCB tracks and
the
> > like. But where the items are not tinned or are old and a bit oxidised I
> > find lead free is slow to whet the surfaces and needs more time and a
> higher
> > heat setting on the iron. The end result may not look pretty. For
general
> > soldering including cable making and repair work I would use the normal
> > 60/40 resin cored stuff.
> >
> > However, for re-working a PCB and for increased joint strength,
> especially
> > with components that run hot, lead free is worth considering. The stuff
I
> > have is Multicore brand - 99.7 % tin, rest copper.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ......... Phil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>


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Anonymous
July 31, 2004 11:54:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Ray Thomas"

> Phil, I got my lead-free solder from
> Dick Smith shop in Adelaide...probably same stuff ?


** Yep - DSE cat: N-1628

When I rang the Multicore factory in Silverwater in Sydney their engineer
told me he did not believe the product was much good.




............. Phil
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 2:51:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Eric K. Weber <eric-nospam@webermusic.com> wrote:
>The problem is sniffing the fumes when not working under a vent hood....
>Not likely a problem unless you are in a production line environment. Also
>the landfill issues with the end of life product.

There is no lead in the fumes, though. There is lots of nasty stuff from the
flux in the fumes, but no lead. And unfortunately the flux in the no-lead
solder is probably worse for you.

It is definitely a good idea just to keep a muffin fan on the bench so that
you don't have concentrated rosin fumes in your nose. The latest Radio World
has an article on the subject, in fact.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 3:01:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Tom Paterson" <dustoyevsky@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20040731142046.11031.00002553@mb-m02.aol.com...
> Plumbing supply house. The coils are thick for fine solder work compared
to
> "radio solder", but 60/40 is still available. Not in Lowes, Domed Heap-O
> plumbing aisle (idiot factor, as mentioned). --TP


Most likely not an appropriate flux for electronics use.
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 3:03:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cegc97$mn2$1@panix2.panix.com...
> This is discussed in the FAQ. The notion is that you should, in a perfect
> world, tie pin one to shield on female connectors only, so that when you
> connect cables together, the connector shields are not floating. However,
> occasionally you will find equipment that requires this (like the Neumann
> mikes in general) and equipment that will not allow this (like the Shure
> mikes where this will result in a small ground loop).'


Scott, perhaps I'm confused, but that seems inadvisable for microphone
cables; it would disable phantom power.
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 3:03:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Walter Harley" <walterh@cafewalterNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:ceh8g2$7ji$0@216.39.172.65@theriver.com...
> "Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:cegc97$mn2$1@panix2.panix.com...
> > This is discussed in the FAQ. The notion is that you should, in a
perfect
> > world, tie pin one to shield on female connectors only, so that when you
> > connect cables together, the connector shields are not floating.
However,
> > occasionally you will find equipment that requires this (like the
Neumann
> > mikes in general) and equipment that will not allow this (like the Shure
> > mikes where this will result in a small ground loop).'
>
>
> Scott, perhaps I'm confused, but that seems inadvisable for microphone
> cables; it would disable phantom power.

I believe that should read "tie pin one to shell". Of course
you are correct that breaking the continuity of ground (pin 1)
disables phantom power.
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 4:32:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>NO NO NO NO NO !!!!!
>The thick stuff for plumbing has an acid flux core & should not be used
>for
>electronic/electrical connections.

No, it doesn't.
Phil Brown
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 4:32:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Phil Brown <philcycles@aol.communged> wrote:
>>NO NO NO NO NO !!!!!
>>The thick stuff for plumbing has an acid flux core & should not be used
>>for
>>electronic/electrical connections.
>
>No, it doesn't.

Most modern plumbing solder is solid-core these days. If you want to add
acid flux or rosin flux, you can do so.

Used to be you could get 80/20 solder with acid core, but I have not seen
that in years.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 4:42:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

agent86 <maxwellsmart@control.gov> wrote in
news:UGVOc.8580$3G6.1548@bignews3.bellsouth.net:

> Tom Paterson wrote:
>
>>
>> Well, getting lead out of "the environment" isn't so stupid, at least
>> by itself.
>>
>> Plumbing supply house. The coils are thick for fine solder work
>> compared to "radio solder", but 60/40 is still available. Not in
>> Lowes, Domed Heap-O plumbing aisle (idiot factor, as mentioned). --TP
>
>
> NO NO NO NO NO !!!!!
> The thick stuff for plumbing has an acid flux core & should not be
> used for electronic/electrical connections. It is usually lead free
> these days. But that's more important for drinking water supply lines
> than for electronic work.

Normal plumbing solder has no flux at all. You apply flux to the pipes
before flowing the solder.
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 5:18:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>From: Carey Carlan

>Normal plumbing solder has no flux at all. You apply flux to the pipes
>before flowing the solder.

Kee- rect. After you shine up the pieces.

(someone wrote):
> The thick stuff for plumbing has an acid flux core & should not be
>> used for electronic/electrical connections. It is usually lead free
>> these days. But that's more important for drinking water supply lines
>> than for electronic work.

Lead free (anitmony, another heavy metal instead) for potable water supply.
50-50 (lead/tin) for lead stool stub to brass closet ring connection.

No rosin-core lead "electrical" solder at Radio Shack? --TP
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 5:23:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Carey Carlan wrote:

> agent86 <maxwellsmart@control.gov> wrote in
> news:UGVOc.8580$3G6.1548@bignews3.bellsouth.net:
>
>
>>Tom Paterson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Well, getting lead out of "the environment" isn't so stupid, at least
>>>by itself.
>>>
>>>Plumbing supply house. The coils are thick for fine solder work
>>>compared to "radio solder", but 60/40 is still available. Not in
>>>Lowes, Domed Heap-O plumbing aisle (idiot factor, as mentioned). --TP
>>
>>
>>NO NO NO NO NO !!!!!
>>The thick stuff for plumbing has an acid flux core & should not be
>>used for electronic/electrical connections. It is usually lead free
>>these days. But that's more important for drinking water supply lines
>>than for electronic work.
>
>
> Normal plumbing solder has no flux at all. You apply flux to the pipes
> before flowing the solder.

Hmmmm.....here in Canada, acid core solder used in plumbing was the norm
and the last time I looked it was still available through the various
hardware stores here. IMHO, before anyone buys plumbing solder to do
electrical work with, they should check the label to make sure that it's
acid core free. Myself, I buy rosin core solder for electrical work and
acid core for any plumbing jobs that I do; that's what they were
respectively designed for. YMMV.

Lawrence (who has used both for at least 30 years or so) Lucier
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 1:48:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey" ...

>
> This is discussed in the FAQ. The notion is that you should, in a perfect
> world, tie pin one to shield on female connectors only, so that when you
> connect cables together, the connector shields are not floating. However,
> occasionally you will find equipment that requires this (like the Neumann
> mikes in general) and equipment that will not allow this (like the Shure
> mikes where this will result in a small ground loop).
>


** Earthing the metalwork of a mic ( Shure or other) at two adjacent spots
does not create a ground loop.

Is there no limit to the misinformation spewing from Scott Dorsey
???????




........... Phil
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 1:48:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Phil Allison <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey" ...
>
>> This is discussed in the FAQ. The notion is that you should, in a perfect
>> world, tie pin one to shield on female connectors only, so that when you
>> connect cables together, the connector shields are not floating. However,
>> occasionally you will find equipment that requires this (like the Neumann
>> mikes in general) and equipment that will not allow this (like the Shure
>> mikes where this will result in a small ground loop).
>>
>
>** Earthing the metalwork of a mic ( Shure or other) at two adjacent spots
>does not create a ground loop.

You may wish to do a literature search on the "Pin 1 problem."
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 2:57:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Phil Brown"

> >NO NO NO NO NO !!!!!
> >The thick stuff for plumbing has an acid flux core & should not be used
> >for
> >electronic/electrical connections.
>
> No, it doesn't.


** Yes it does - wire solders with acid flux cores are widely sold for
plumbing and other metalwork.




............. Phil
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 5:09:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey"
> Phil Allison
...
> >
> >> This is discussed in the FAQ. The notion is that you should, in a
perfect
> >> world, tie pin one to shield on female connectors only, so that when
you
> >> connect cables together, the connector shields are not floating.
However,
> >> occasionally you will find equipment that requires this (like the
Neumann
> >> mikes in general) and equipment that will not allow this (like the
Shure
> >> mikes where this will result in a small ground loop).
> >>
> >
> >** Earthing the metalwork of a mic ( Shure or other) at two adjacent
spots
> >does not create a ground loop.
>
> You may wish to do a literature search on the "Pin 1 problem."



** Has not the slightest damn thing to do with grounding the metalwork of
a microphone.

Is there no lie too blatant for this charlatan to post ??






............ Phil
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 5:09:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Phil Allison <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>> >
>> >** Earthing the metalwork of a mic ( Shure or other) at two adjacent
>spots
>> >does not create a ground loop.

You have a ground connection _in the female connector_ between pin 1 and
the shell.

Inside the mike, you have a second ground connection between pin 1 and
the shell.

Explain to me why you do not believe this is a ground loop. It's only
a couple inches long, of course, but there are two parallel paths to
ground.

You might want to also look up the EMIT handbook, which is a really nice
introduction to grounding and RF noise rejection techniques.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 5:09:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in message news:<2n3580Fs5l2sU1@uni-berlin.de>...

>
grounding the metalwork of
> a microphone.



On the subject of grounding, metalwork and microphones....

A friend of mine is trying to figure out the best way to wire together
two panels that connect the control room with the live room. Both
panels have XLR connectors and will be used for feeding mic signals
from one room to the other. In this case what should be done with the
shell lug on the panel mount XLR connectors? I figure that since all
the mic cables have the shell ground connected that it wouldn't matter
either way. What I'm not so sure about is whether having all these
connectors mounted to common metal panels will pose some problem.
Different types of preamps will most likely be used. I have a feeling
isolating each connector (plastic panel or inserts) might be important
but then again actual practice may show that it's not an important
factor.

Any words of advice?


Thanks,
Peter
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 5:14:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey" <
> Phil Brown <

> >>NO NO NO NO NO !!!!!
> >>The thick stuff for plumbing has an acid flux core & should not be used
> >>for >>electronic/electrical connections.
> >
> >No, it doesn't.
>
>
> Most modern plumbing solder is solid-core these days. If you want to add
> acid flux or rosin flux, you can do so.
>
> Used to be you could get 80/20 solder with acid core, but I have not seen
> that in years.


** Acid cored solder for plumbing etc is available very widely, for
example Multicore sell "Arax" acid cored 60/40 solder wire for this purpose.
There are many others.





............ Phil
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 8:11:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>
> ** Acid cored solder for plumbing etc is available very widely, for
>example Multicore sell "Arax" acid cored 60/40 solder wire for this purpose.
>There are many others.

As well as a mixer I'm a carpenter and none of my plumbing suppliers sell cored
solder.
Phil Brown
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 9:59:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 1 Aug 2004 09:54:41 -0700, thecatspjamas@aol.com (Peter B.) wrote:

>"Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in message news:<2n3580Fs5l2sU1@uni-berlin.de>...
>
>>
>grounding the metalwork of
>> a microphone.
>
>
>
>On the subject of grounding, metalwork and microphones....
>
>A friend of mine is trying to figure out the best way to wire together
>two panels that connect the control room with the live room. Both
>panels have XLR connectors and will be used for feeding mic signals
>from one room to the other. In this case what should be done with the
>shell lug on the panel mount XLR connectors? I figure that since all
>the mic cables have the shell ground connected that it wouldn't matter
>either way. What I'm not so sure about is whether having all these
>connectors mounted to common metal panels will pose some problem.
>Different types of preamps will most likely be used. I have a feeling
>isolating each connector (plastic panel or inserts) might be important
>but then again actual practice may show that it's not an important
>factor.
>
>Any words of advice?
>
>
>Thanks,
>Peter

It is very important to keep all the connectors separate, or you are
going to end up with ground loops. By using balanced mic cables, you
will mitigate the effect to a great extent, but why induce it when you
needn't?

Try and make the panel so that it simply carries all necessary
connections through the wall with as little disturbance as possible.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 11:54:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 17:59:30 +0100, Don Pearce <donald@pearce.uk.com>
wrote:

>It is very important to keep all the connectors separate, or you are
>going to end up with ground loops. By using balanced mic cables, you
>will mitigate the effect to a great extent, but why induce it when you
>needn't?
>
>Try and make the panel so that it simply carries all necessary
>connections through the wall with as little disturbance as possible.

You seem to be suggesting that he SHOULDN'T mount all the sockets on a
common metal plate?

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
Anonymous
August 2, 2004 12:01:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 19:54:39 +0100, Laurence Payne
<l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 17:59:30 +0100, Don Pearce <donald@pearce.uk.com>
>wrote:
>
>>It is very important to keep all the connectors separate, or you are
>>going to end up with ground loops. By using balanced mic cables, you
>>will mitigate the effect to a great extent, but why induce it when you
>>needn't?
>>
>>Try and make the panel so that it simply carries all necessary
>>connections through the wall with as little disturbance as possible.
>
>You seem to be suggesting that he SHOULDN'T mount all the sockets on a
>common metal plate?
>
> CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
>"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

Provided they can be electrically isolated from each other, no
problem. But if that proves tricky, then some non-metallic plate
should be used.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
August 2, 2004 1:51:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Phil Brown <philcycles@aol.communged> wrote:
>>>NO NO NO NO NO !!!!!
>>>The thick stuff for plumbing has an acid flux core & should not be used
>>>for
>>>electronic/electrical connections.
>>
>>No, it doesn't.
>
> Most modern plumbing solder is solid-core these days. If you want to add
> acid flux or rosin flux, you can do so.
>
> Used to be you could get 80/20 solder with acid core, but I have not seen
> that in years.
> --scott


Well, I haven't sweated any copper pipes in years & I guess it shows.

A quick check of the Oatley website indicated that acid core solder is
still produced (both leaded & lead free), but it is not specifically
marketed for plumbing use. They recommend it for gutters, radiators, etc.
The plumbing specific stuff is indeed solid core.

But for electronic use, I'll stick with the old 60/40 roson core stuff from
Radio Shack.
Anonymous
August 2, 2004 8:55:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> >
> >You seem to be suggesting that he SHOULDN'T mount all the sockets on a
> >common metal plate?

>
> Provided they can be electrically isolated from each other, no
> problem. But if that proves tricky, then some non-metallic plate
> should be used.
>


Thanks for the tips. I'll let my friend know what is going on. I'll
offer to scribe out a plastic panel and then drill it out.

What type of plastic would be good to use? How thick should it be to
stand up to the abuse of studio life?

I have a roll of copper sheet that I use for shielding those things
that need shielding. If I end up making plastic panels I intend on
using the copper to protect the exposed areas of the wiring. I tend to
look for excuses to bend metal and solder pieces together with a blow
torch... and yes I will be applying the flux with a brush first. Would
running a ground wire from these copper boxes to a central ground
point connecting the chassis of the preamps be a good or bad idea? The
copper would not be in contact with any of the connectors.

Thanks,
Peter
Anonymous
August 2, 2004 3:12:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Phil Brown"
> >
> > ** Acid cored solder for plumbing etc is available very widely, for
> >example Multicore sell "Arax" acid cored 60/40 solder wire for this
purpose.
> >There are many others.
>
> As well as a mixer I'm a carpenter and none of my plumbing suppliers sell
cored
> solder.


** So what ?



.......... Phil
Anonymous
August 2, 2004 5:01:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 2 Aug 2004 04:55:18 -0700, thecatspjamas@aol.com (Peter B.) wrote:

>> >
>> >You seem to be suggesting that he SHOULDN'T mount all the sockets on a
>> >common metal plate?
>
>>
>> Provided they can be electrically isolated from each other, no
>> problem. But if that proves tricky, then some non-metallic plate
>> should be used.
>>
>
>
>Thanks for the tips. I'll let my friend know what is going on. I'll
>offer to scribe out a plastic panel and then drill it out.
>
>What type of plastic would be good to use? How thick should it be to
>stand up to the abuse of studio life?
>
>I have a roll of copper sheet that I use for shielding those things
>that need shielding. If I end up making plastic panels I intend on
>using the copper to protect the exposed areas of the wiring. I tend to
>look for excuses to bend metal and solder pieces together with a blow
>torch... and yes I will be applying the flux with a brush first. Would
>running a ground wire from these copper boxes to a central ground
>point connecting the chassis of the preamps be a good or bad idea? The
>copper would not be in contact with any of the connectors.
>
>Thanks,
>Peter

Make it thick - this plate is going to have to provide sound isolation
for the hole in the wall.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 3:57:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

agent86 wrote:

> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>
>>Phil Brown <philcycles@aol.communged> wrote:
>>
>>>>NO NO NO NO NO !!!!!
>>>>The thick stuff for plumbing has an acid flux core & should not be used
>>>>for
>>>>electronic/electrical connections.
>>>
>>>No, it doesn't.
>>
>>Most modern plumbing solder is solid-core these days. If you want to add
>>acid flux or rosin flux, you can do so.
>>
>>Used to be you could get 80/20 solder with acid core, but I have not seen
>>that in years.
>>--scott
>
>
>
> Well, I haven't sweated any copper pipes in years & I guess it shows.
>
> A quick check of the Oatley website

Spelled Oatey ( for those googling or constructing an URL ).


> indicated that acid core solder is
> still produced (both leaded & lead free), but it is not specifically
> marketed for plumbing use. They recommend it for gutters, radiators, etc.
> The plumbing specific stuff is indeed solid core.
>
> But for electronic use, I'll stick with the old 60/40 roson core stuff from
> Radio Shack.
>


--
Les Cargill
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 10:30:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Phil Allison <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

> "Scott Dorsey"
>> Phil Allison
>> >
>> >> This is discussed in the FAQ. The notion is that you should, in a
> perfect
>> >> world, tie pin one to shield on female connectors only, so that when
> you
>> >> connect cables together, the connector shields are not floating.
> However,
>> >> occasionally you will find equipment that requires this (like the
> Neumann
>> >> mikes in general) and equipment that will not allow this (like the
> Shure
>> >> mikes where this will result in a small ground loop).
>> >>
>> >
>> >** Earthing the metalwork of a mic ( Shure or other) at two adjacent
> spots
>> >does not create a ground loop.
>>
>> You may wish to do a literature search on the "Pin 1 problem."

> ** Has not the slightest damn thing to do with grounding the metalwork of
> a microphone.

Hi Phil,

We are talking about chassis (or shield) and signal ground, which in some
cases are in fact separate.

Some devices maintain separation between signal ground and chassis so
that EMI/RFI that is picked up on the chassis or shield go to earth
rather than contaminating signal ground.

> Is there no lie too blatant for this charlatan to post ??

Hey, Scott has remembered more than I have forgotten.

Be nice to all curmudgeons

Rob R.
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 12:21:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Phil Allison <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
> ** That is not the definition of a ground loop.

Please, Phil, give us your definition of a ground loop.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 1:36:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in message news:<ceo1tu$dn0$1@panix2.panix.com>...
> The major exposure problems have to do with things like holding it in your
> teeth (VERY BAD) and not washing your hands _immediately_ after working with
> solder. Your hands get contaminated when you work with the stuff and sooner
> or later it makes its way to your mouth no matter how careful you are. The
> solution to this is to wash your hands quickly after soldering, and don't
> eat at the bench. You'd be surprised how hard it is to get some techs to
> take simple precautions.

> That depends on the water. Around here, lead seams crust over with
> calcium deposits very quickly so there is no big leaching issue. In places
> with acidic water, it's a major problem, though.
>
> There's a big problem in DC right now because they made a minor change to
> their water chemistry a couple years back, and now lead is leaching from
> lines that were previously quite safe. The real crime is the amount of
> political garbage that is being built up around (and was built up to hide)
> a simple technical problem.

> --scott

As far as I know, one of the currently accepted methods (at least
here in the USA) for treating heavy-metal poisoning is chelation
therapy in which the patient is given injections of the amino-acid
EDTA. About four years ago I read somewhere about a study that
compared the effectiveness of patients being given orally administered
EDTA pills versus the traditionally accepted injections. I seem to
recall that the oral form of EDTA was shown to be quite effective, but
the amount required and the retail cost of EDTA capsules (in 2000) was
such that it would have been comparable to the cost of just paying a
doctor to give the injections. Anyhow, if anyone's really concerned
about their possible exposure to heavy metals then they should look
into using EDTA chelation therapy. It would probably be a good idea to
also add some NAC (N-acetyl Cysteine) capsules to the therapy.
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 4:00:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:2nb27uFuvq37U1@uni-berlin.de...

>
> ** Funny how people who garbage like that say that are themselves very
> ones in need of some maturity.
>

Wow. I was planning on not responding, but that doesn't make any sense at
all. It scans like a fortune cookie from hell. Try smoking that huge amount
of weed after you post, not before.

jb
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 4:04:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:2n5io4Frju1jU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Phil Brown"
> > >
> > > ** Acid cored solder for plumbing etc is available very widely, for
> > >example Multicore sell "Arax" acid cored 60/40 solder wire for this
> purpose.
> > >There are many others.
> >
> > As well as a mixer I'm a carpenter and none of my plumbing suppliers
sell
> cored
> > solder.
>
>
> ** So what ?
>

So going to Australia is like going back in time? That could be good, it
could be bad...

jb
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 12:33:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article <10gn731gmv9mc05@corp.supernews.com> williams@nwlink.com
> writes:
>
>> Why are you using lead-free solder? Do you expect to be licking the
>> solder joints?
>
> There are some places where that's all you can buy these days. I think
> that's all Radio Shack sells now. And if it's you job to be a
> solderer, you boss may be obligated to provide it for your use.
>
> We have laws now to protect people from their own stupidity. Ain't
> this a great country?

So they've replaced Drain-o with sugar water, just incase one gets confused
while unblocking the bog and take a swig !

geoff
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 12:37:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Phil Allison wrote:
>
> ** Acid cored solder for plumbing etc is available very widely,
> for example Multicore sell "Arax" acid cored 60/40 solder wire for
> this purpose. There are many others.


Solder for plumbing ?!!!


Duuno about Oz or the USA, but I thought that plumbing was plastic or
copper. You don't use solder on either of those.

Mind you, maybe you do have lead in your pumbing, which may explain some
behavioural phenomena in those countries, Remember why Rome fell apart ?

geoff
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 12:37:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:37:01 +1200, Geoff Wood <geoff@paf.co.nz-nospam> wrote:
> Phil Allison wrote:
>>
>> ** Acid cored solder for plumbing etc is available very widely,
>> for example Multicore sell "Arax" acid cored 60/40 solder wire for
>> this purpose. There are many others.
>
>
> Solder for plumbing ?!!!
>
>
> Duuno about Oz or the USA, but I thought that plumbing was plastic or
> copper. You don't use solder on either of those.
>

Sure do. DAGS on "Sweat Fittings" or poke around the archive in
alt.home.repair.

Smooth copper tubing inside smooth copper (formerly bronze) fittings.
Polish 'till it's shiny, add flux, stick together. As you heat with
Propane, high-temp alloys don't matter much. Works a treat on tubing up
to 1".

Larger than 1", it's a PITA with a small burner. Pros have specialized
gear for things like older 3" copper soil lines. Yes, they DO stink
to high Heaven when you heat them to desolder. Largely replaced with
PVC or ABS for soil lines, depending on locality.

Somewhere in my basement, I have some old 60/40 Sn/Pb plumbing solder.
I don't use it any more, in favor of lead-free alloys. Tin/Antimony,
iirc. If I ever find it close to HAZMAT Day, I'll get rid of it.

The "Plumb" in plumbing is from the old Latin word for lead, Plumbium,
from whence comes its chemical symbol, Pb.

For electronics, I'm using near-eutectic Sn/Pb 63/37. I don't recall
the exact number for eutectic Sn/Pb alloy, but any wave solder facility
will likely have some ingots cast with the exact alloy.
!