Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

Help with live sound, acoustic guitar

Last response: in Home Audio
Share
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 12:53:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I have a Taylor electic acoustic with their new expression system. I
am playing it in a small venue with a 120 watt Behringer acoustic amp.
The amplified acoustic is pretty good, but there is one frequency
range that troubles me. The B string, fretted to a C and on up to
about a G (1st through 8th fret), the result sounds more like an
electic guitar, than an acoustic. Also, when I turn the amp way up,
these are the frequencies that start to oscillate. The E string sounds
ok, as do all the lower strings. I'm not getting that "acoustic"
sound out of my Taylor on these notes. It is missing the initial
attack and has too much sustain, and the sustain sounds like it's
dominated by one frequency instead of the complex harmonics of an
acoustic. It has a "jazz" sound, on these few notes.

Now Taylor makes some sort of a box to plug into before your amp or
PA. Also, I could get a small mixer or equalizer or ???. Taylor says
they idealized the system to play into a PA (Old man Taylor plays into
a PA at his church every Sunday). Should I just get a PA (actually a
lot of the clubs I play at have a PA, in which case I use it). If so
which one (the new Bose?).

At any rate, I'm trying to get my Behringer acoustic amp to sound
better while playing my Taylor.

Wonderful guitar, by the way. And yes, I know it sounds better
"miced", but I can't hold it and play into a stage mic. Inhibits my
playing. Whole reason for aoustic/electric.
August 1, 2004 8:00:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1b3f4ae6.0408010753.2603603d@posting.google.com>,
anothername@access4less.net (Doug) wrote:

> I have a Taylor electic acoustic with their new expression system. I
> am playing it in a small venue with a 120 watt Behringer acoustic amp.
> The amplified acoustic is pretty good, but there is one frequency
> range that troubles me. The B string, fretted to a C and on up to
> about a G (1st through 8th fret), the result sounds more like an
> electic guitar, than an acoustic. Also, when I turn the amp way up,
> these are the frequencies that start to oscillate. The E string sounds
> ok, as do all the lower strings. I'm not getting that "acoustic"
> sound out of my Taylor on these notes. It is missing the initial
> attack and has too much sustain, and the sustain sounds like it's
> dominated by one frequency instead of the complex harmonics of an
> acoustic. It has a "jazz" sound, on these few notes.
>
> Now Taylor makes some sort of a box to plug into before your amp or
> PA. Also, I could get a small mixer or equalizer or ???. Taylor says
> they idealized the system to play into a PA (Old man Taylor plays into
> a PA at his church every Sunday). Should I just get a PA (actually a
> lot of the clubs I play at have a PA, in which case I use it). If so
> which one (the new Bose?).
>
> At any rate, I'm trying to get my Behringer acoustic amp to sound
> better while playing my Taylor.
>
> Wonderful guitar, by the way. And yes, I know it sounds better
> "miced", but I can't hold it and play into a stage mic. Inhibits my
> playing. Whole reason for aoustic/electric.

while there are plenty of people here with live experiance perhaps you
should als post to the groups that focus on this
alt.audio.pro.live-sound and rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic
I myself would first try another brand of string
John Pearse makes excellent strings
are you still running the elixers that ship as oem on the Taylor?
George
Anonymous
August 1, 2004 8:00:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Yes, I still have the elixirs. I hadn't thought about changing
strings, thanks for the suggestion.

George <g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<g.p.gleason-D2BE0D.12005801082004@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
> In article <1b3f4ae6.0408010753.2603603d@posting.google.com>,
> anothername@access4less.net (Doug) wrote:
>
> > I have a Taylor electic acoustic with their new expression system. I
> > am playing it in a small venue with a 120 watt Behringer acoustic amp.
> > The amplified acoustic is pretty good, but there is one frequency
> > range that troubles me. The B string, fretted to a C and on up to
> > about a G (1st through 8th fret), the result sounds more like an
> > electic guitar, than an acoustic. Also, when I turn the amp way up,
> > these are the frequencies that start to oscillate. The E string sounds
> > ok, as do all the lower strings. I'm not getting that "acoustic"
> > sound out of my Taylor on these notes. It is missing the initial
> > attack and has too much sustain, and the sustain sounds like it's
> > dominated by one frequency instead of the complex harmonics of an
> > acoustic. It has a "jazz" sound, on these few notes.
> >
> > Now Taylor makes some sort of a box to plug into before your amp or
> > PA. Also, I could get a small mixer or equalizer or ???. Taylor says
> > they idealized the system to play into a PA (Old man Taylor plays into
> > a PA at his church every Sunday). Should I just get a PA (actually a
> > lot of the clubs I play at have a PA, in which case I use it). If so
> > which one (the new Bose?).
> >
> > At any rate, I'm trying to get my Behringer acoustic amp to sound
> > better while playing my Taylor.
> >
> > Wonderful guitar, by the way. And yes, I know it sounds better
> > "miced", but I can't hold it and play into a stage mic. Inhibits my
> > playing. Whole reason for aoustic/electric.
>
> while there are plenty of people here with live experiance perhaps you
> should als post to the groups that focus on this
> alt.audio.pro.live-sound and rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic
> I myself would first try another brand of string
> John Pearse makes excellent strings
> are you still running the elixers that ship as oem on the Taylor?
> George
Related resources
Anonymous
August 2, 2004 1:06:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Doug" <anothername@access4less.net> wrote in message
news:1b3f4ae6.0408010753.2603603d@posting.google.com...
> I have a Taylor electic acoustic with their new expression system. I
> am playing it in a small venue with a 120 watt Behringer acoustic amp.
> The amplified acoustic is pretty good, but there is one frequency
> range that troubles me. The B string, fretted to a C and on up to
> about a G (1st through 8th fret), the result sounds more like an
> electic guitar, than an acoustic. Also, when I turn the amp way up,
> these are the frequencies that start to oscillate. The E string sounds
> ok, as do all the lower strings. I'm not getting that "acoustic"
> sound out of my Taylor on these notes. It is missing the initial
> attack and has too much sustain, and the sustain sounds like it's
> dominated by one frequency instead of the complex harmonics of an
> acoustic. It has a "jazz" sound, on these few notes.


Kinda hard to know what it is without hearing it, but it sounds like
what you're describing *might* be feedback related. Does it get better
if you move farther away from the amp?

Might also be the amp. Behringer isn't exactly noted for making high
quality products. A poorly designed speaker/enclosure combination will
honk at certain frequencies, ring at others and practically lose it
altogether at others.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)
Anonymous
August 2, 2004 2:02:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< The amplified acoustic is pretty good, but there is one frequency
range that troubles me. The B string, fretted to a C and on up to
about a G (1st through 8th fret), the result sounds more like an
electic guitar, than an acoustic. >>

That's a huge improvement over other pickup systems, then. Generally the entire
range of the instrument sounds like a bad electric, so you're way ahead of the
game already.


Scott Fraser
Anonymous
August 2, 2004 11:41:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"ScotFraser" <scotfraser@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040802060244.28808.00000662@mb-m26.aol.com...
> << The amplified acoustic is pretty good, but there is one frequency
> range that troubles me. The B string, fretted to a C and on up to
> about a G (1st through 8th fret), the result sounds more like an
> electic guitar, than an acoustic. >>
>
> That's a huge improvement over other pickup systems, then. Generally the
entire
> range of the instrument sounds like a bad electric, so you're way ahead of
the
> game already.


Heheh. Try here: http://www.fingerpick.com/pickups.htm. Also
http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptest.htm

Doug, George's advice to check at rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic was a
good one. Lots of folks there who do this exact thing.

Steve
Anonymous
August 2, 2004 11:49:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

And also of course, your friend Google Groups:
http://tinyurl.com/7yj5g
(you might be there a while -- 20,100 hits from RMMGA alone... it's a
popular subject :) 
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 5:50:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Dear Doug

we tend to agree with Lorin David's suggestion that the issue here may
be caused by feedback and yes, a poorly designed speaker / enclosure
can indeed result in all sorts of acoustic problems. However, we feel
that the remark concerning the quality of our product may be
unjustified. As the owner of the unit, you are in the best position to
convince yourself of its "quality" - in terms of audio performance, in
terms of features and in terms of durability.

With the ACX1000 we would suggest trying the following tests to get a
little closer to what's actually causing the problem.

Do either of the "clip" LEDs or the "limiter" LED come on when the
problem occurs ? If yes - reduce the volume on the guitar or the input
gain on the amp. Does the problem persist even at low level ?

At low input gain and moderate sound level, with the loudspeakers
facing away from the body of the instrument ....

- deactivate the effects module
- set all EQ controls to 5, if you are using the mic channel reduce
the exciter to "0"
- set "feedback 2" fully clockwise and "feedback 1" fully anti -
clockwise
- if you are using both channels - try switching one or other of the
"phase" switches (channel 1 input & pre master-volume mix)
- experiment with different settings of the feedback controls

Do you get any result ?

- If you have access to a CD player - select an appropriate recording
and use the tape in connectors at the back of the unit to play the
recording (disconnect your guitar for this). In this configuration you
will not induce feedback, so you can increase the master level to hear
if it is the cabinet which is causing the problem.

Whatever happens - we'd love to hear from you with your findings.

Our R&D has taken care to design the ACX1000 in such a way that it
delivers the clarity and power on stage where you need it, and the
cabinet itself plays a significant role in getting the right
performance from the 'speakers. We have chosen to use a large volume
fully-closed cabinet combined with two 8-inch full-range speakers
which were custom-designed for this specific model, augmented in the
very highest frequencies by a piezo driver. We found this to be the
optimum configuration. The result is a clear, well-balanced response,
without "boominess" or dullness which would detract from your
performance.

We really don't think that the ACX1000 itself is the root of the
problem - but if you do feel that the unit is not performing to the
expected standard, or even if you suspect a technical defect - then
please get stay in contact with us until we will find a solution
together.

Best regards

Andy Cullen
Customer Support Administrator
BEHRINGER Spezielle Studiotechnik GmbH




anothername@access4less.net (Doug) wrote in message news:<1b3f4ae6.0408010753.2603603d@posting.google.com>...
> I have a Taylor electic acoustic with their new expression system. I
> am playing it in a small venue with a 120 watt Behringer acoustic amp.
> The amplified acoustic is pretty good, but there is one frequency
> range that troubles me. The B string, fretted to a C and on up to
> about a G (1st through 8th fret), the result sounds more like an
> electic guitar, than an acoustic. Also, when I turn the amp way up,
> these are the frequencies that start to oscillate. The E string sounds
> ok, as do all the lower strings. I'm not getting that "acoustic"
> sound out of my Taylor on these notes. It is missing the initial
> attack and has too much sustain, and the sustain sounds like it's
> dominated by one frequency instead of the complex harmonics of an
> acoustic. It has a "jazz" sound, on these few notes.
>
> Now Taylor makes some sort of a box to plug into before your amp or
> PA. Also, I could get a small mixer or equalizer or ???. Taylor says
> they idealized the system to play into a PA (Old man Taylor plays into
> a PA at his church every Sunday). Should I just get a PA (actually a
> lot of the clubs I play at have a PA, in which case I use it). If so
> which one (the new Bose?).
>
> At any rate, I'm trying to get my Behringer acoustic amp to sound
> better while playing my Taylor.
>
> Wonderful guitar, by the way. And yes, I know it sounds better
> "miced", but I can't hold it and play into a stage mic. Inhibits my
> playing. Whole reason for aoustic/electric.
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 12:51:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <17c72fc5.0408030050.42a93660@posting.google.com> a.cullen@behringer.de writes:

> we tend to agree with Lorin David's suggestion that the issue here may
> be caused by feedback and yes, a poorly designed speaker / enclosure
> can indeed result in all sorts of acoustic problems. However, we feel
> that the remark concerning the quality of our product may be
> unjustified. As the owner of the unit, you are in the best position to
> convince yourself of its "quality" - in terms of audio performance, in
> terms of features and in terms of durability.

Dear Andy

People tend to use the term "quality" to mean different things.
There's little reason to question the build quality of a Behringer
instrument amplifier - you use the same proven manufacturing methods
as everyone else. But there are design choices which also affect what
a user may perceive as "quality." It's true that as the owner, he's in
the best position to judge "quality" however it's clear that he
doesn't have the experience to do do. He may not have tried his guitar
with several amplifiers in a store and chosen the one that sounds
best, he may have bought it from a catalog because the description
sounded like it would do the job he had in mind (make his acoustic
guitar louder) and it didn't cost as much as a few others that were
described similarly. While there are many valid reasons to buy
Behringer products, these - price and ease of purchase - are the most
common. This does not always lead to choosing the best product for the
application.

The other thing that comes from a catalog purchase of an
unseen/unheard/unfelt unit is the lack of any knowledgable guidance
other than perhaps an instruction manual. In a store, an experienced
salesman (admittedly hard to find these days) might help the customer
with control settings to see if there's a good sound in there, or if
he should try something else. You don't get that with a mail-order
purchase, so you do the next best thing - you ask on a newsgroup. And
the typical way of asking is "Does anyone else have one and have this
problem?"

I hope the original poster takes advantage of your suggestions for
basic, trouble-free settings to see if he gets any better results.
Most people don't "start from zero" but begin turning knobs hoping to
find the magic setting that solves their problem.

> We really don't think that the ACX1000 itself is the root of the
> problem

Honeslty, I don't either, given the description of the problem. But it
may be that the user's expectations are beyond what can be
accomplished with any similar amplifier. If he's never done this
before and is expecting plug-in results equal to those achieved by
stage performers with guitar technicians and tailored
guiar/pickup/amplifer systems, it would only be dumb luck to achieve
it with a single off-the-shelf purchase.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
August 3, 2004 5:12:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> > We really don't think that the ACX1000 itself is the root of the
> > problem
>
> Honeslty, I don't either, given the description of the problem.

personally I feel the problem is in the neck of the guitar bad setting
of frets or uneven density of the wood used to make the neck
I would go to the dealer with the amp and try other guitar to
troubleshoot this problem
George
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 8:29:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <g.p.gleason-8B48DD.09120503082004@netnews.worldnet.att.net> g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net writes:

> personally I feel the problem is in the neck of the guitar bad setting
> of frets or uneven density of the wood used to make the neck
> I would go to the dealer with the amp and try other guitar to
> troubleshoot this problem

It's probably easier to take his guitar to a shop and try it with
other amps. If he can get a sound he likes with a different amp,
that's the one he should get.

If he can't get a decent sound with any of them, it's time to take the
guitar to a repairman who understands acoustic guitars and pickups.
Perhaps the pickup isn't mounted in the right place, or it isn't
properly secured so it's vibrating in resonance with notes in the
problem range. It might just take a dab of glue in the right place.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 10:58:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

OK. I am the original poster on this. I have more information. It is
not the amp. It does it on other amps, and does it with headphones. A
more complete description of the "problem" (anamoly, feature,
characteristic), is the sound is being compressed. There is an
unnaturally large amount of sustain. Actually, I think it may be
partly the guitar, and all guitars seem to feedback on the E note in
this area. Just plugged in my Gibson SG into my Blues Jr, and cranked
it, with the guitar on the stand, and the feedback was the E note.
Gotta resonate somewhere. And after reading that sentence. I tried the
same thing on the acoustic Taylor, feedback frequency is on the E. But
NOT the open high E string as due to its openess seems to have
cancelling harmonics? I just tried my Martin through a mike and guess
what, resonates on the E, but IT resonates on the LOW E string! And
the taylor feedbacks through the mike at the MIDDLE E! Seems guitars
are "E" instruments.

I remember from dynamics class that all mechanical systems have a
resonannt frequency.

Is there such a thing as a "decompressor"? How about a "notch"
decompressor?

Having said all that...
Actually, the guitar sounds pretty good. Building pickups inside an
acoustic guitar that sound natural, is an unsolved problem. The Taylor
system is certainly better than the Martin Fishman Blend system I
demoed. But none of the units sound as good as my admittadly
inexpesive Sennhieser 835 microphone. But try and play the guitar all
the time with the mike one inch away. Very hard to do.

It's an interesting problem.

By the way, I spent the afternoon playing my Taylor, what a fine
guitar!
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 4:36:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1b3f4ae6.0408031758.55de69a2@posting.google.com> anothername@access4less.net writes:

> Is there such a thing as a "decompressor"?

Yes, it's called an expander. But that's not what you need.

> How about a "notch" decompressor?

How about a notch filter? This is fairly common in an amplified
acoustic guitar setup to reduce the gain at resonant frequencies so
that the tendency to feed back at thost frequencies is reduced.

> Actually, the guitar sounds pretty good. Building pickups inside an
> acoustic guitar that sound natural, is an unsolved problem. The Taylor
> system is certainly better than the Martin Fishman Blend system I
> demoed.

A year or so back, Taylor introduced a new guitar pickup and preamp
system that was (at least partially) designed by Rupert Neve, a highly
respected designer of audio equipment. I tried one at a NAMM show and
no matter how I turned the knobs, I couldn't get it to sound the
slightest bit like an acoustic guitar. But it didn't feed back.

Amplified acoustic guitar is something different than an acoustic
guitar that's loud enough for a large audience to hear. It's a fact of
life. Generally the most "acoustic" sounding amplified acoustic
guitars use a combination of a pickup and a small microphone inside
the body, blended to get a natrual tone (mostly from the microphone)
and some extra clarity for percussive rhythmic playing (mostly from
the pickup).



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 7:55:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Doug" <anothername@access4less.net> wrote in message
news:1b3f4ae6.0408031758.55de69a2@posting.google.com...

> Having said all that...
> Actually, the guitar sounds pretty good. Building pickups inside an
> acoustic guitar that sound natural, is an unsolved problem. The Taylor
> system is certainly better than the Martin Fishman Blend system I
> demoed. But none of the units sound as good as my admittadly
> inexpesive Sennhieser 835 microphone. But try and play the guitar all
> the time with the mike one inch away. Very hard to do.
>
> It's an interesting problem.

Indeed. Try mounting a miniature condenser mike inside the guitar. On my
guitar (Martin, not Taylor) I have it stuck to the brace under the
fingerboard, right under the high E-string, stuck on with 3M Strip-Calk. Not
perfect, but better than any pickup I've heard so far.

Peace,
Paul
August 5, 2004 1:08:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Is the Taylor "expressive" system the one with a neck sensor ? I have
only read about it so this is a shot..and I could even misunderstand
how this system works. But are there balance controls between the
neck sensor and the bridge pickup ? If so, try more of the bridge and
less of the neck. The "chunk O'wood" that is the neck certainly would
sustain vibrations more than the attack and decay nature of the
bridge, and also would not have any hollowness that is characteristic
of an acoustic body. It also probably would be a somewhat 'naturally'
compressed tone because the attack would be used up, so to speak, just
getting the mass of the neck vibrating. FWIW..and that may be
nothing.
Gary

anothername@access4less.net (Doug) wrote in message news:<1b3f4ae6.0408031758.55de69a2@posting.google.com>...
> OK. I am the original poster on this. I have more information. It is
> not the amp. It does it on other amps, and does it with headphones. A
> more complete description of the "problem" (anamoly, feature,
> characteristic), is the sound is being compressed. There is an
> unnaturally large amount of sustain. Actually, I think it may be
> partly the guitar, and all guitars seem to feedback on the E note in
> this area. Just plugged in my Gibson SG into my Blues Jr, and cranked
> it, with the guitar on the stand, and the feedback was the E note.
> Gotta resonate somewhere. And after reading that sentence. I tried the
> same thing on the acoustic Taylor, feedback frequency is on the E. But
> NOT the open high E string as due to its openess seems to have
> cancelling harmonics? I just tried my Martin through a mike and guess
> what, resonates on the E, but IT resonates on the LOW E string! And
> the taylor feedbacks through the mike at the MIDDLE E! Seems guitars
> are "E" instruments.
>
> I remember from dynamics class that all mechanical systems have a
> resonannt frequency.
>
> Is there such a thing as a "decompressor"? How about a "notch"
> decompressor?
>
> Having said all that...
> Actually, the guitar sounds pretty good. Building pickups inside an
> acoustic guitar that sound natural, is an unsolved problem. The Taylor
> system is certainly better than the Martin Fishman Blend system I
> demoed. But none of the units sound as good as my admittadly
> inexpesive Sennhieser 835 microphone. But try and play the guitar all
> the time with the mike one inch away. Very hard to do.
>
> It's an interesting problem.
>
> By the way, I spent the afternoon playing my Taylor, what a fine
> guitar!
Anonymous
August 5, 2004 2:22:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike wrote:

>In article <1b3f4ae6.0408031758.55de69a2@posting.google.com>
>anothername@access4less.net writes:
>
>> Is there such a thing as a "decompressor"?
>
>Yes, it's called an expander. But that's not what you need.
>
>> How about a "notch" decompressor?
>
>How about a notch filter? This is fairly common in an amplified
>acoustic guitar setup to reduce the gain at resonant frequencies so
>that the tendency to feed back at thost frequencies is reduced.
>
>> Actually, the guitar sounds pretty good. Building pickups inside an
>> acoustic guitar that sound natural, is an unsolved problem. The Taylor
>> system is certainly better than the Martin Fishman Blend system I
>> demoed.
>
>A year or so back, Taylor introduced a new guitar pickup and preamp
>system that was (at least partially) designed by Rupert Neve, a highly
>respected designer of audio equipment. I tried one at a NAMM show and
>no matter how I turned the knobs, I couldn't get it to sound the
>slightest bit like an acoustic guitar. But it didn't feed back.
>
>Amplified acoustic guitar is something different than an acoustic
>guitar that's loud enough for a large audience to hear. It's a fact of
>life.

Well said.


Generally the most "acoustic" sounding amplified acoustic
>guitars use a combination of a pickup and a small microphone inside
>the body, blended to get a natrual tone (mostly from the microphone)
>and some extra clarity for percussive rhythmic playing (mostly from
>the pickup).
>
>
>
>--
>I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
>However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
>lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
>you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
>and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
>
>
>
>
>
>
!