limiter advice

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Anon wrote
>
>if the signal breaks up at the board on a transient peak will a limiter be
>able to remove the distorted part of this or is it already too late.
>

If the limiter is after the board (in the signal chain) then yes, it is to
late. But if before then it will likely do it's thing and help. All and all you
need to know the dynamics of the band, mic placement and all of what your going
to record to foresee (the emanate attack on the death star) what will be going
to your recording medium.
I only can speculate so maybe another in the group will chime in and give you
some more info.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

anon <anonymousm@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>i'm looking for a good pair of limiters to be used in live jazz recording,
>piano drums bass
>
>mainly concerned with piano for now. there will be alot of dynamic range so
>i'm wondering what limiter will be able to handle a ton of signal without
>breaking up.
>leaning toward 1176's. universal audio reissue unless someone has a better
>idea.
>
>also wondering if limiting is necessary at all while recording to digital
>format since the noise floor is alot lower and i could just lower the
>overall level being recorded.

Do you want limiting for the sound, or do you want limiting to prevent overs?
If your goal is to prevent overs, by all means the smart thing to do is to
just lower the levels.

Prism makes some "safety limiter" barrel gadgets that will help you prevent
overs if you absolutely _have_ to do that, but it is really superfluous in
the digital world where we have outrageous dynamic range.

>i've used medium quality limiters in the past that would always break up
>when hit with alot of level. even demeter's would break up, not sure if
>these are considered high quality

So, don't do that! Turn the levels down.

>if the signal breaks up at the board on a transient peak will a limiter be
>able to remove the distorted part of this or is it already too late.

It is too late. Turn your levels down. If you want limiting to get a
particular sound, there's no reaosn you can't do it after the fact, though
it won't do anything to prevent clipping earlier in the chain.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Are you mixing direct to two-track, or are you recording multitrack and then
mixing down? If the latter, just record to a good 24-bit system and record
at a low level. Mike suggested setting things so that the hottest notes
during the run-through never go above -6dBFS; I'd go a little further and
make that -10dBFS. With a 24-bit system, it doesn't make any difference.

If you're going direct to two-track, then an 1176 on the piano mike might be
a reasonable choice, if you feel you need compression/limiting of the piano.
Personally, I'd rather go without it.

And yes, as everyone else said, if the clip light has lit, you can't fix it.

Peace,
Paul

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"anon" <anonymousm@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:QHPPc.62773$4h7.9688730@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> ok thanks for all the advice so far. this is all live to two track not
> multitracked
>
> i'm not interested in coloring the sound at all, just interested in
> preventing peak distortions. so i take it that it in the past the issue
was
> s/n ratio with tape machines and now with digital formats it is not so
> important.
>
> i wasn't aware that you could put the limiter before the preamp. is this
> common?

No; typically the limiter goes after the preamp or into an insert jack in
the preamp/mixer.

> i think some preamps don't sound as good when not driven hard or am i off
on
> this

Usually they sound better when not driven hard; driving them hard normally
generates more distortion.

> so it looks like i don't really need limiting then, just good pre's that
> will be able to handle alot of signal, and setting my level a bit lower to
> accomodate peak distortions

Yep.

Peace,
Paul

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> i wasn't aware that you could put the limiter before the preamp. is this
> common?

Paul wrote
No; typically the limiter goes after the preamp or into an insert jack in
the preamp/mixer.

That's what I ment, in the insert. Limiters (like the really nice tubes) are
better used as a main L/R thing. So you need to concentrate more on your mic
placement and knowing what to expect than relying on Ab Fab gear to fix (so to
speak) something that that can be prevented to start with.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Sugarite" <nobody@home.com> wrote in message...

> > i'm looking for a good pair of limiters to be used in live jazz recording,
> > piano drums bass

> no need for limiters there


True enough, there shouldn't be... but transients are fleeting things.
I'd be inclined to put an Aphex Dominator in the chain, set just below
machine clipping to cover my backside against a digital overshoot.
If everything goes as expected, the unit would never see action, but
it would also provide some assurance that a take isn't damaged by
something unexpected.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"anon" <anonymousm@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message news:9BFPc.45951$oW6.9765445@twister.nyc.rr.com...

> i'm looking for a good pair of limiters to be used in live jazz recording,
> piano drums bass

I think you'ld be better off by recording at lower levels, but I'm not
opposed to a highly transparent limiter in the path for safety reasons.

> mainly concerned with piano for now. there will be alot of dynamic range so
> i'm wondering what limiter will be able to handle a ton of signal without
> breaking up.

Piano is the last thing you should be worried about... at least IMHO. Get
a decent check with the player letting it all hang out, dynamically speaking,
and then back off another couple of dB. Start this process at the input
gain pots, not at the outputs of the desk or the tape machine.

> leaning toward 1176's. universal audio reissue unless someone has a better
> idea.

You're looking at the limiting function of a compressor. If you are recording
direct to 2-track stereo, you could use something like an Aphex Dominator
model 720... easily found on e-Bay in the area of under $400. ($1299 new).
Do *not* deliberately use it to limit your signal... rather use it as a safety net
for the settings which you have already reduced to safe levels.

> also wondering if limiting is necessary at all while recording to digital
> format since the noise floor is alot lower and i could just lower the
> overall level being recorded.

No, it is not. This is the *best* answer and it will save you lots of heartache
from money spent and possibly nasty results from the effects of compression
and limiting. Reducing gain is not a problem even with a lowly 16 bits, but this
reduction should begin at the console or mic pre inputs.

> i've used medium quality limiters in the past that would always break up
> when hit with alot of level. even demeter's would break up, not sure if
> these are considered high quality
>
> there will be moments of transient peaks and i would like as natural a sound
> as possible without any distortions and without any squashing compressor
> sound.

Lower the mic input and mixer output levels to compensate for the transients
as best as possible, then use a transparent limiter set to come into play only
if the combined signals of the group might produce a transient that could still
exceed full scale or tape saturation.

> this is the stupid part of the question
>
> if the signal breaks up at the board on a transient peak will a limiter be
> able to remove the distorted part of this or is it already too late.

If the signal breaks up at the board, your gain structure is not correctly set
or there is a malfunction in the input gain or output stage. Nothing can
undo that sort of thing.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles <cdkrug@aol.com> wrote:
>
>While we're on the thread, how about a durable, inexpensive, non-pumpy
>unit for road rack live sound use?
>
>Yes, I realize that those are not really compatible options.

The old MXR ones still turn up cheaply and they are great for the
application. Symetrix also made a couple good cheap limiters that
were roadable. The MXR is much more colored, but it's colored in a
way that is fun on guitar.

I have a thing called an "Audion Limiter" that was made in Russia and
cost me about $50 a decade ago and it's not half bad, actually.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."