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Sound Card opinons - alternatives to Creative for gamers?

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Anonymous
February 7, 2005 11:34:17 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Every sound card I have ever owned has been a Creative Labs card - I
guess my mindset goes back to DOS gaming where, damnit, why bother with
Sound Blaster compatible cards when I can just get the real thing? But
my last couple of Creative cards have been very problematic - I had all
sorts of problems with a SB Live and now a pair of Audigy cards in two
different machines is giving me fits. Everything from a persistent
humming to bloated drivers to PCI timing problems ... I've had enough.

Since I'm looking at some HW upgrades I decided to get a new sound card,
anything but Creative. I have two basic requirements; well, three I
guess: 1. High audio quality for music 2. Doesn't bog down my CPU (for
gaming) 3. Isn't made by Creative. And 4., priced for consumers.

I'm having a hard time finding alternatives, so I'd really appreciate
any thoughts and experiences you have. He's why I've gathered so far:

Turtle Beach Santa Cruz: This looked like the card to get, but is it
even manufactured anymore? I hardly want to buy a card that's EOL. New
Egg has been sold out of them for quite some time, and they don't even
list the OEM cards anymore.

Turtle Beach Catalina - Supposedly is doesn't do D-A processing on the
card, and off loads audio conversion to the CPU.

M-Audio cards - exceptional sound quality, but at the cost of CPU
cycles. Again, not good for gaming. Also expensive.

Chaintech AV-710 - supposedly this card can be hacked to achieve
near-M-Audio quality in 2-channel mode, but I can't find any info on how
it is for gaming.

Guillimont - not making sound cards anymore?
Gainward - same thing?

AOpen cards - seem to be serviceable, not much more.


Thank for your thoughts on this.
Anonymous
February 8, 2005 10:48:34 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

hi...


PCI Latency Tool

http://www.rpgplanet.com/morrowind/modcontrols/mods.asp
look under "utilities"

12-27-04 Summit Staff checked
Utility: advanced, tweaking of settings; use at your own risk, read
readme
Most modern graphics cards "hog the bus", where the Latency values are
up to 255! However, the modern soundcards need about 180 on the Bus,
and the bus gives to them only 32 or 64!

The symptoms of a "choking soundcard" is where the music stutters and
distorts and the character jerks along, especially at a low fps, with
many mods! One might think that this is a "driver or directx problem"!
With this fix, one can hear MW sounds that never ever were heard
before, as the soundcard, like the Audigy2 zs, can now process all of
the sounds. One can now run the character through the thickest of
balmora even at 6fps!


===========================

apparently, i read, that all creative products get bus-shafted by the
video card where the pci bus has it where the video card
FORCES
the bios and windows to give as much as 255 to the bus for vid cards
and a audigy2

NEEDS

higher than the 32 that is given to it!!

other sound cards are not so demanding.

i have read that 90% of audigy problems are from this alone!! many
many blame the card, but even in advanced systems advanced bios
settings, there are
often NO way to set the pci bus for
*each*
device! you have to "32" or "64" all of the devices!

so

here comes that nifty little program that i have found and it is on the
Summit, above.
you can set each device.

i recommend this...

160 for the audigy
90 for the vid card.
64 for the hard drive.
32 for all others.
do not change anything that has a "000" value.

no one reporst overheating of devices.
use at your own risk as system vary!

try different values.

you even can set up different setting for each game !!

in my morrowind, i got terrible stuttering and sound problems until i
used this.

then enjoy the amazing sound card!!

freestone
Anonymous
February 8, 2005 11:43:51 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

here is more about this latency tool

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=...

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=...

---part of my post, there.

well well well....
I have an audigy2 zs myself and my morrowind *WAS* real choppy
until i found out that the problem was due to my audigy2 card!

*not* the card itself, it is a wonderfull card, it was due to the fact
that my radeon 9600xt card was using 255 "units" of the BUS!!
this poster puts it well....

QUOTE
It can be the video hogging the PCI bus. This can cause sound cards
problems. Some video card will use 248 PCI latency, while other devices
use 32 & 64. The sound card uses 32. I've used a PCI latency program to
change my video card latency to 64, it was 248. My sound is better & my
video card preforms much better. I've set all my devices to 32 except
for the video card & thats 64. My over all system runs smoother!

yes, i found that my radeon was using 255 and my audigy was using all
of 32!!
the audigy was chocking to death, not getting enough of the bus. thus
there is sputterings and especially at low fps, like below 15, the
sound waould sputter and the movement would "jerk" real badly.
I then used this program and not only does the sputterings go away and
that i can RUN at 6 fps without a jerking motion, the sound is SO much
better and then i hear sounds that i never ever heard before!!

I went back to my old post, here months ago, only to find that the link
was dead. i then, now, found two more live links.


http://www.dslreports.com/r0/download/6640...c86/LtcyCf...


http://hbr.relaxz.net/files/Tools/LtcyCfg.zip

I fear that these will go dead soon, what i might do someday is to
upload this program to euro-morrowind or to the summit *as* a morrowind
Utility program! then it will not become lost.

my mw runs SO much better, that this program might be needed for nearly
all new systems! and so so little known too!


I set, myself, my radeon 9600xt, in the bus settings, to about 100.
i then set the audigy2 to about 150 or so.


POWERSTRIP has an option too, to set the latency values for *each*
device, but you might have to buy the complete version. but i read a
rumor that the expiration date on the trial version is "forever".

the problem is....is that the bus settings are not accessible even in
bios and only a Program can change these. even so, the Tool must reset
the settings at each reboot! but one can use a File to automaticly set
the settings upon reboot. i made a shortcut to desktop and click on it
at bootup as win98se does not have that option as winXP does.
Yes the bus is used by each device and some devices use the bus more
than others.
here is some more info, more than you might want, but the links will
soon be gone so here it all is.....

I am going to make a dedicated post on this, as this reply will not be
read by many!!
here is what a few other people have to say about this Condition of the
bus being used mostly by the vid card, chocking out the audio card!
==========================================
===========================================


UPDATE:
OK, the latency for the AGP bus for ATI cards is indeed 255! even when
you select 32 in your BIOS.

What the author or the article below claims is that this fixes some
stuttering in games but moreover get rids of audio popping and cracking
issues, due to some devices taking up to much CPU time (high latency).
with the program you can also change the latency from 32 to another you
desire (remeber it has to something which can be devided by 8).

Anyway I tested it only with Colin McRae 4 which I found stuttered very
much for me (very little stutters) even though I had 50FPS. WIth this
tweak the stutters are gone!

Never experienced stutters with other games before but hey it does not
hurt graphics performance! (tested with 3dmark03).

Get the tool and see if your graphiccard is running at 248ms latency.
Is it?

Decrease latency of it (or any other device with a latency, '000'
means: has none, but do not make a device "000"!) to 64 or below (below
may not be faster, depends on system) and go into your favorite 3D
game!

Any difference? I say YES and put my hands in fire for that.

Note that you can save the config it to a file (click 'add to list
first' or it won't work) and load it via batch file (read me) when
windows starts because otherwise windows will overwrite your settings
with the next boot (JUST LIKE IT DOES WITH YOUR BIOS SETTINGS! GRMMF!)

Ok, to clear some things up.

1. The changes apply for AGP also!
2. You do not have to do it after every boot.

a) Start program and make the changes you want (enter number and click
'set now' for the device you want to change) - make sure you don't
touch the devices that don't have 000 (no) latency at all
B) mark ALL entries and click on 'add to list', you will see a new
column called 'new' on the right (means it's added)
C) press 'save as' and save the table to a config file with a name you
like into the program folder I suggest
d) Go into the program folder, create a txt file and write into it:

C:\LtcyCfg\LtcyCfg.exe -f:C:\LtcyCfg\config.cfg <- Replace with your
path and name of config file of course. (I think you could leave the
folders away as the file resides in the same directory of the program,
but I never trust windows in such cases)

Then save the txt-file and replace it's extension with BAT (if you
can't see the extension you'll have to go to your
windows-explorer->extras->folder options->somewhere...Google if you
don't know and disable the 'hide extensions from known file types' or
whatever it's called in the English version of XP)

e) Drag a shortcut of that BAT-file into your auto start folder

f) Done, if you want to make changes repeat step a-c. Happy gaming and
more overall power (even on desktop)

[a-f works with winxp, i think, but not for win98se]

3. Possible heat problem: I WOULD say no. Me and my friends (one
doesn't even have a fan on his ATI!!!) didn't encounter any problems
but only improvement of performance.

Let me try to explain why (simple words, I'm no technician):

Decreasing the latency does NOT mean INCREASING the response time of
your hardware!

The BUS latency stands for: How much time does a component of your PC
(graphic card, network card, and sound card) have to perform an
operation before another component can! Note that only one component
can use the BUS at one time, then the next, then the next. In other
words: instead of letting your graphic card do 100 operations in 248ms
you set it to a lower number of operations in 32, 64, 128ms. (32 is
minimum and must be a number that



can be divided by 8)

So the problem is while leaving the graphic card latency at 248ms -
which it is mostly set to - that the component has TOO MUCH time and
other important operations (soundcard for example) can not be performed
in time, so the queue list is getting bigger and bigger-> CPU overload.

Experiment a little with the settings and see what gets you best
performance. In my opinion it's mostly the graphic card latency that
hogs the CPU but you may tweak a little more out of it. Depends on
hardware I guess. I have all my components set to 32ms now.



- - - - -
ADDED SOME MORE INFO:

Some of you might wonder why you have the "PCI Latency time" option in
your BIOS if the PCI latency is messed up if you don't use a program
like this one here.

1. Windows overwrites this setting. *Duh*
2. Some manufacturers of graphic cards and (possibly other hardware)
set the latency of their cards to 248ms internally on the card itself
(the programmer of PCIDAWG says that they do it to boost performance
and that they are obviously wrong with that in most cases)

===========================================================================

have you tried adjusting your pci latencies ?
Many ppl with Geforce/ATI video cards have got rid of clicks and pops
by reducing the agp latency. This is easily achieved with ltcycfg.exe
program. Most of these 3D cards hog the pci latency time big time with
as big latency time as 255. Try changing it to 64 or something like
that.
There's a topic about that in UAD forum. Maybe you can get your problem
fixed with this or if not totally fixed, atleast you can improve your
performance, I'm quite sure about that.
================================================================================
=


In the meantime, I've been reading allot about something new to me ---
PCI Latency. I've read how changing these setting fixed many
people's woes. For example, some folks were having serious problems
with sound sputtering or video freezing, etc., and were later fixed
when they changed their PCI latency settings for some of their devices.
For those who are not familiar with PCI Latency, it is the amount of
"wait" time PCI is allocated to communicate with any given peripheral.
>From what I understand, a device with a high PCI Latency setting takes
more PCI bus time than another device with a lower setting. Normally,
the PCI Latency Timer is set to 32 cycles. This means the active PCI
device has to complete its transactions within 32 clock cycles or hand
it over to the next PCI device. As you can see, a device, like my video
card (in fact, all my video cards) which has a setting of 248
essentially "hogs" the PCI Bus when compared to the G520 whose
setting is 128. My Soundblaster sound card is set for 64 on the machine
with the G520 and 32 on my other PCs. I'm beginning think that D-Link
is switching the order of the cards to minimize the cards fighting for
PCI bus time in lieu of having you change the PCI Latency setting.
Think about it, the more time a vendors card has access to the PCI Bus,
the less likely that it will cause havoc because it will have the time
needed to do its thing. Once I get my G520, I will play with the PCI
Latency settings and report back what I find.

Anyway, the utility that I found is called LtcyCfg.exe which is a
pretty simple tool to use. It will show the PCI Latency setting of all
your devices and will allow you to change them. I've attached it for
your use. I've used it with no ill affects.

BE WARNED however, that this tool gives the user access to settings
that could potentially cause damage for which I cannot be held
responsible (seeing as I'm just the messenger anyway).
================================================================================
=======



It can be the video hogging the PCI bus. This can cause sound cards
problems. Some video card will use 248 PCI latency, while other devices
use 32 & 64. The sound card uses 32. I've used a PCI latency program to
change my video card latency to 64, it was 248. My sound is better & my
video card preforms much better. I've set all my devices to 32 except
for the video card & thats 64. My over all system runs smoother!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It doesn't help to make these settings is the bios. You need the PCI
latency tool
to make the change.

================================================================================
==========


there. more than you might want to Know!
please post reply if LtcyCfg helps your game!!

freestone
Related resources
Anonymous
February 8, 2005 6:44:43 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 20:34:17 -0500, murpes <murpes@yahwho.com> wrote:


>M-Audio cards - exceptional sound quality, but at the cost of CPU
>cycles. Again, not good for gaming. Also expensive.

I had thought I read there is a new version of this card that has
hardware acceleration? My Audigy2 is hassle free so don't know what
your beef is, it's better for gaming than my Santa Cruz and Hecules
FortissimoII was. Santa Cruz was a nice card for music though.
Anonymous
February 9, 2005 5:23:36 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"murpes" <murpes@yahwho.com> wrote in message
news:6pmdnek1gqeLipXfRVn-ug@comcast.com...
> Every sound card I have ever owned has been a Creative Labs card - I guess
> my mindset goes back to DOS gaming where, damnit, why bother with Sound
> Blaster compatible cards when I can just get the real thing? But my last
> couple of Creative cards have been very problematic - I had all sorts of
> problems with a SB Live and now a pair of Audigy cards in two different
> machines is giving me fits. Everything from a persistent humming to
> bloated drivers to PCI timing problems ... I've had enough.

I switched from onboard AC 97 sound to Audigy 2 ZS and have had no regrets.
I'm not sure you won't face the same problems cited with another card.
Anonymous
February 9, 2005 6:08:57 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

The land of PC sound is in pretty sad shape. I gave up on Creative after
having a lot of issues on my VIA based motherboard. Of course I am not
buying VIA based stuff again either. I also had a lot of issues with the
drivers from Creative.

I have a Turtle Beach I got for 1/2 price with a rebate at Circuit City.
Nice card in a box 5 times the size it needs to be. That is in my son's
machine. Installed one driver never had an issue.

In my machine I have a Hercules Game Theater which has been great.
Breakout box that sits on my desk with a single thick cable connection
to the sound card itself. Gives me speaker, microphone, USB and gameport
connection right where I need it. I too have heard they aren't makeing
product any more though. I have also just installed one driver with no
issues.

Not sure if you are looking for 5.1 or 7.1 support. If you are running
headphones and 2 or 2.1 setup and are not some massive audiophile I
would recommend finding the Turtle Beach or Hercules card cheap
somewhere. They are both solid.

murpes <murpes@yahwho.com> wrote in
news:6pmdnek1gqeLipXfRVn-ug@comcast.com:

> Every sound card I have ever owned has been a Creative Labs card - I
> guess my mindset goes back to DOS gaming where, damnit, why bother
> with Sound Blaster compatible cards when I can just get the real
> thing? But my last couple of Creative cards have been very
> problematic - I had all sorts of problems with a SB Live and now a
> pair of Audigy cards in two different machines is giving me fits.
> Everything from a persistent humming to bloated drivers to PCI timing
> problems ... I've had enough.
>
> Since I'm looking at some HW upgrades I decided to get a new sound
> card, anything but Creative. I have two basic requirements; well,
> three I guess: 1. High audio quality for music 2. Doesn't bog down
> my CPU (for gaming) 3. Isn't made by Creative. And 4., priced for
> consumers.
>
> I'm having a hard time finding alternatives, so I'd really appreciate
> any thoughts and experiences you have. He's why I've gathered so far:
>
> Turtle Beach Santa Cruz: This looked like the card to get, but is it
> even manufactured anymore? I hardly want to buy a card that's EOL.
> New Egg has been sold out of them for quite some time, and they don't
> even list the OEM cards anymore.
>
> Turtle Beach Catalina - Supposedly is doesn't do D-A processing on the
> card, and off loads audio conversion to the CPU.
>
> M-Audio cards - exceptional sound quality, but at the cost of CPU
> cycles. Again, not good for gaming. Also expensive.
>
> Chaintech AV-710 - supposedly this card can be hacked to achieve
> near-M-Audio quality in 2-channel mode, but I can't find any info on
> how it is for gaming.
>
> Guillimont - not making sound cards anymore?
> Gainward - same thing?
>
> AOpen cards - seem to be serviceable, not much more.
>
>
> Thank for your thoughts on this.
Anonymous
February 9, 2005 8:02:37 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

murpes <murpes@yahwho.com> once tried to test me with:

> Thank for your thoughts on this.

I'm using the built-in sound that's on my motherboard and it's just fine
for me. I guess I'm easy to please. It supports 5.1 but I just have 2.1
speakers (had 5.1 and they busted and I'm not forking out any more cash for
moderate improvements to sound). Personally I will never buy another
Creative product ever again even if they are the ONLY sound card vendor,
I'd rather not have sound. They've stolen enough of my money.

--

Knight37

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
Anonymous
February 9, 2005 2:42:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Kevin" <kev_w_peckno@spamyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95F7D72B025E3kevwpeckyahoocom@151.164.30.42...
> The land of PC sound is in pretty sad shape. I gave up on Creative after
> having a lot of issues on my VIA based motherboard. Of course I am not
> buying VIA based stuff again either. I also had a lot of issues with the
> drivers from Creative.

I too am using VIA, with a Creative Audigy 2 ZS on XP sp 2. What issues did
you have?
Anonymous
February 10, 2005 6:42:32 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

One speaker would cut out on computer boot then maybe I would just hear
static from it then it would work. I thought I had a cable problem but
it was the card + VIA. Listed as a known issue somewhere but that has
been over a year ago.

This issue may have since been fixed with new 4in1 drivers, XP updates,
BIOS, etc. I tried everything at the time with no success and I had to
give up as sound is pretty important when you game.

"Andrew Chew" <andrew@nospam.alumni.nus.edu.sg> wrote in
news:1107920575.869.0@demeter.uk.clara.net:

>
> "Kevin" <kev_w_peckno@spamyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns95F7D72B025E3kevwpeckyahoocom@151.164.30.42...
>> The land of PC sound is in pretty sad shape. I gave up on Creative
>> after having a lot of issues on my VIA based motherboard. Of course I
>> am not buying VIA based stuff again either. I also had a lot of
>> issues with the drivers from Creative.
>
> I too am using VIA, with a Creative Audigy 2 ZS on XP sp 2. What
> issues did you have?
>
>
>
Anonymous
February 10, 2005 3:19:35 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Kevin" <kev_w_peckno@spamyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95F8DCDDE88D4kevwpeckyahoocom@151.164.30.48...
> One speaker would cut out on computer boot then maybe I would just hear
> static from it then it would work. I thought I had a cable problem but
> it was the card + VIA. Listed as a known issue somewhere but that has
> been over a year ago.
>
> This issue may have since been fixed with new 4in1 drivers, XP updates,
> BIOS, etc. I tried everything at the time with no success and I had to
> give up as sound is pretty important when you game.

Must have been fixed as I don't experience this. Yeah, about sound.
Anonymous
February 10, 2005 11:53:36 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Hi,

I liked my onboard 5.1 (really 7.1 with a 5.1 system) with Doom 3, but
then I realized that's about the only game that supports 5.1 without
using Creative's EAX 2.0/3.0 or 4.0. So I got an Audigy 2.

Problematic? You're not kidding. Sound was great, real 3D in single
player games. Massive stuttering in multiplayer. I tried everything,
moving to the last PCI slot, different ethernet card, pb variable hacks,
you name it. Then I RMA'd it.

Then, the Creative "uninstall" pretended to do something for a minute, I
rebooted, everything was still there- icons, menus, drivers, EVERYTHING.
I had to do a System Restore and a bunch of File Manager deletes to get
rid of it. Blech.

The problem is that most games only support 4.1 or 5.1 through EAX
2.0/3.0, and other hardware vendors only license plain EAX (1.0 I
guess). I've seen that Creative is just starting to license EAX 2.0 to
other hardware vendors. Funny, that one card is always out of stock.

What we need is to demand that game makers support 5.1 (or better) 3D
sounds without using EAX. Since they won't have to pay royalties to
Creative, it should be a no-brainer, right?

Ken.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mail: kmarsh at charm dot net | Close the VT SVC Ctr boondoggle and
WWW: http://www.charm.net/~kmarsh | return services to local CIS offices!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 1:43:16 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

It all depends on what you mean by "high quality" but when I
abandoned Creative (after realising that 1 out of 2 cards ended up
having problems) I went for the Philips card. Acoustic Edge or
whatever.

Does 5:1 - not 6:1 or 7:1 but I have found it very tweakable for
music and good in games. Should be cheap.




--
Iphigenie

Games of the moment: Spellforce, Sacred, HL2
Most wanted games: Call of Cthulhu, SWAT4

http://iphi.net
Iphi's game news: http://www.iphi.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi?mode=games
Iphi's UK bargain watch: http://www.iphi.net/more.php?id=102_0_1_0_M
February 12, 2005 10:23:02 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:45:51 -0700, James Garvin
<jgarvin2004@comcast.net> wrote:

>Good question...what is a good alternative to a VIA mobo for AMD folks?
> I wish SuperMicro made AMD boards as well....

NForce based boards. I am very happy with my ASUS A7N8X Deluxe, has
great onboard sound.
--
Andrew, contact via interpleb.blogspot.com
Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards,
please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text.
Check groups.google.com before asking an obvious question.
Anonymous
February 12, 2005 12:03:46 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 9 Feb 2005 05:02:37 GMT, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:

>murpes <murpes@yahwho.com> once tried to test me with:
>
>> Thank for your thoughts on this.
>
>I'm using the built-in sound that's on my motherboard and it's just fine
>for me. I guess I'm easy to please. It supports 5.1 but I just have 2.1
>speakers (had 5.1 and they busted and I'm not forking out any more cash for
>moderate improvements to sound). Personally I will never buy another
>Creative product ever again even if they are the ONLY sound card vendor,
>I'd rather not have sound. They've stolen enough of my money.
The NVIDIA nForce2 and 3 MB are very good. Asus and Gigabyte and MSI
are good makers.I have been running AMD for many years.Pick good
components and you will have no problems.Pay attention to good memory
pay more and get the best.

Don
Anonymous
February 12, 2005 11:29:56 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Don Murphy <don.murphy@comcast.net> once tried to test me with:

>>I'm using the built-in sound that's on my motherboard and it's just
>>fine for me. I guess I'm easy to please. It supports 5.1 but I just
>>have 2.1 speakers (had 5.1 and they busted and I'm not forking out any
>>more cash for moderate improvements to sound). Personally I will never
>>buy another Creative product ever again even if they are the ONLY
>>sound card vendor, I'd rather not have sound. They've stolen enough of
>>my money.
> The NVIDIA nForce2 and 3 MB are very good. Asus and Gigabyte and MSI
> are good makers.I have been running AMD for many years.Pick good
> components and you will have no problems.Pay attention to good memory
> pay more and get the best.

Mind is an Intel motherboard. I have no idea who made the sound chip but
i'm pretty sure it's not Nvidia.

--

Knight37

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
February 13, 2005 9:56:58 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:23:48 GMT, "OldDog" <OldDog@citypound.com>
wrote:

>I think heat is one of my problems. I'm almost ready to buy a small
>fridge, stick the case in there, and see if it'll stop the pc from randomly
>shutting down. ;)  I've added all the fans that I can for this case, 2.
>Plus I drilled 4 holes in the top to vent some of the heat out. Not much
>help. So it appears that I'm going to have to do some drilling/cutting on
>the side panel to add this huge ass fan that I got from the store.

That sounds rather drastic. Are you using any temperature monitoring
software like Speedfan - what is your CPU temperature? You could try
underclocking your CPU via the multiplier to see if that helps.
--
Andrew, contact via interpleb.blogspot.com
Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards,
please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text.
Check groups.google.com before asking an obvious question.
Anonymous
February 13, 2005 12:58:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"OldDog" <OldDog@citypound.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>Big thanks to Andrew and Mean_Chlorine for your feedback. I've added this
>info to my "things to research for pc upgrade list". I'd like to get this
>AMD 2800 running a lot better. That and I'd like to get an AMD 3500 (939)
>with a PCIe video card. But we'll have to see how income taxes go this
>year. :( 
>
>I think heat is one of my problems. I'm almost ready to buy a small
>fridge, stick the case in there, and see if it'll stop the pc from randomly
>shutting down. ;)  I've added all the fans that I can for this case, 2.
>Plus I drilled 4 holes in the top to vent some of the heat out. Not much
>help. So it appears that I'm going to have to do some drilling/cutting on
>the side panel to add this huge ass fan that I got from the store.

Well if you put holes in the top, you might as well go all the way and
put an exhaust fan there.

Although, from a test I did at one point when I was figuring where to
stick the 120mm fan, having a good intake can be just as important.
I'd tried the 120 as a top mounted intake fan blowing down, but ended up
mounting it more normally in the front.
The downdraft top mount actually cooled the cpu more, but by the time
i'd figured that out i'd already done extensive modding to mount the 120
in the front.

Just a note on fans: They are most certainly not all equal. Just adding
fans may not be enough, you have to add fans that can actually move a
decent amount of air.
Most of the newish "silent" fans are so quiet because they DON'T push
much air at all.

You may have to live with a certain amount of fan noise to cure the heat
problems you have.

Oh, one last thing, if you don't have a full tower case, you might want
to get one, since it gives a fair bit more room for fans and more
importantly air circulation.

Good luck.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
Anonymous
February 13, 2005 2:24:35 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

Thusly Andrew <spamtrap@localhost.> Spake Unto All:

<ventilating the case with a large axe>
>That sounds rather drastic. Are you using any temperature monitoring
>software like Speedfan - what is your CPU temperature? You could try
>underclocking your CPU via the multiplier to see if that helps.

Another thing to test for overheating is to run the computer with the
case open; if you've got an office-type fan you can aim that at the
computer too. If it keeps crashing you know that no amount of
case-modding will make it stop.
February 13, 2005 4:38:33 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

freestonew wrote:
> here is more about this latency tool
>

Snipped

Useful info thanks firestonew. Works well on my Audigy/9800Pro.
Strange this isn't better known.


--
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always
so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts"

Bertrand Russell
Anonymous
February 13, 2005 6:53:58 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 12 Feb 2005 20:29:56 GMT, Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> wrote:

>Don Murphy <don.murphy@comcast.net> once tried to test me with:
>
>>>I'm using the built-in sound that's on my motherboard and it's just
>>>fine for me. I guess I'm easy to please. It supports 5.1 but I just
>>>have 2.1 speakers (had 5.1 and they busted and I'm not forking out any
>>>more cash for moderate improvements to sound). Personally I will never
>>>buy another Creative product ever again even if they are the ONLY
>>>sound card vendor, I'd rather not have sound. They've stolen enough of
>>>my money.
>> The NVIDIA nForce2 and 3 MB are very good. Asus and Gigabyte and MSI
>> are good makers.I have been running AMD for many years.Pick good
>> components and you will have no problems.Pay attention to good memory
>> pay more and get the best.
>
>Mind is an Intel motherboard. I have no idea who made the sound chip but
>i'm pretty sure it's not Nvidia.

Probably Realtek. That's the chipmaker on my Intel mobo. You can find out
in Device Manager.


--
Hong Ooi | "COUNTERSRTIKE IS AN REAL-TIME
hong@zipworld.com.au | STRATEGY GAME!!!"
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/ | -- RR
Sydney, Australia |
Anonymous
February 13, 2005 6:53:59 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Hong Ooi <hong@zipworld.com.au> once tried to test me with:

>>Mind is an Intel motherboard. I have no idea who made the sound chip but
>>i'm pretty sure it's not Nvidia.
>
> Probably Realtek. That's the chipmaker on my Intel mobo. You can find out
> in Device Manager.

SoundMAX Integrated Digital Audio, by Analog Devices it says.


--

Knight37

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
Anonymous
February 13, 2005 11:59:45 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Creative isn't that bad.
I've been using them since the 1st Generation SB.
Works fine on my system, VIA or not.

I've been running AMDs and Intels.

Perhaps you are just unlucky to get a bad batch of SBs or Mobo.



Knight37 wrote:
> murpes <murpes@yahwho.com> once tried to test me with:
>
>
>>Thank for your thoughts on this.
>
>
> I'm using the built-in sound that's on my motherboard and it's just fine
> for me. I guess I'm easy to please. It supports 5.1 but I just have 2.1
> speakers (had 5.1 and they busted and I'm not forking out any more cash for
> moderate improvements to sound). Personally I will never buy another
> Creative product ever again even if they are the ONLY sound card vendor,
> I'd rather not have sound. They've stolen enough of my money.
>
Anonymous
February 14, 2005 6:40:04 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Joy Division:

> Works fine on my system, VIA or not.
> Perhaps you are just unlucky to get a bad batch of SBs or Mobo.

Creative has has issues with VIA boards going back to the Live. It only
happens on certain hardware. Creative blames VIA, VIA blames Creative, so
no fixes.
--
Mac Cool
Anonymous
February 15, 2005 6:46:56 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"Andrew" <spamtrap@localhost.> wrote in message
news:2aut01d975aet3q9ce531b55sbff4jdula@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:23:48 GMT, "OldDog" <OldDog@citypound.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I think heat is one of my problems. I'm almost ready to buy a small
> >fridge, stick the case in there, and see if it'll stop the pc from
randomly
> >shutting down. ;)  I've added all the fans that I can for this case,
2.
> >Plus I drilled 4 holes in the top to vent some of the heat out. Not much
> >help. So it appears that I'm going to have to do some drilling/cutting
on
> >the side panel to add this huge ass fan that I got from the store.
>
> That sounds rather drastic. Are you using any temperature monitoring
> software like Speedfan - what is your CPU temperature? You could try
> underclocking your CPU via the multiplier to see if that helps.
> --
> Andrew, contact via interpleb.blogspot.com
> Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards,
> please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text.
> Check groups.google.com before asking an obvious question.

I got the Speedfan program. Short answer is that I think my problem was an
airflow issue with AMD 2800 and ATI 9800 pro which I think I've fixed with
this new fan I just added to my case. Longer version of this tale in reply
to Mean_Clorine.

Thanks for your reply Andrew.
Anonymous
February 15, 2005 6:55:11 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"Xocyll" <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote in message
news:jdqu01hc4ud8rghp2bp0tdcgl2hvng2cdc@4ax.com...
> "OldDog" <OldDog@citypound.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
> the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>
> >Big thanks to Andrew and Mean_Chlorine for your feedback. I've added
this
> >info to my "things to research for pc upgrade list". I'd like to get
this
> >AMD 2800 running a lot better. That and I'd like to get an AMD 3500
(939)
> >with a PCIe video card. But we'll have to see how income taxes go this
> >year. :( 
> >
> >I think heat is one of my problems. I'm almost ready to buy a small
> >fridge, stick the case in there, and see if it'll stop the pc from
randomly
> >shutting down. ;)  I've added all the fans that I can for this case,
2.
> >Plus I drilled 4 holes in the top to vent some of the heat out. Not much
> >help. So it appears that I'm going to have to do some drilling/cutting
on
> >the side panel to add this huge ass fan that I got from the store.
>
> Well if you put holes in the top, you might as well go all the way and
> put an exhaust fan there.
>
> Although, from a test I did at one point when I was figuring where to
> stick the 120mm fan, having a good intake can be just as important.
> I'd tried the 120 as a top mounted intake fan blowing down, but ended up
> mounting it more normally in the front.
> The downdraft top mount actually cooled the cpu more, but by the time
> i'd figured that out i'd already done extensive modding to mount the 120
> in the front.
>
> Just a note on fans: They are most certainly not all equal. Just adding
> fans may not be enough, you have to add fans that can actually move a
> decent amount of air.
> Most of the newish "silent" fans are so quiet because they DON'T push
> much air at all.
>
> You may have to live with a certain amount of fan noise to cure the heat
> problems you have.
>
> Oh, one last thing, if you don't have a full tower case, you might want
> to get one, since it gives a fair bit more room for fans and more
> importantly air circulation.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Xocyll

Several months ago, I upgraded my AMD 1800 with GeForce 3 to AMD 2800 with
ATI 9800 Pro. At the time, I didn't realize how hot these new systems run.
While I was at the pc store, I figured that I'd get a new case too. Some
of the cases featured 4 and 5 fans.

Now I like to try and keep up with pc tech stuff. But for some reason, I
just looked at this feature (4/5 fans) and figured it was just a waste.
Since the most I've ever used in the past was 2, I went with the cheaper
case that supported just 2 fans. :( 

With a big ass circular hole cut into the top of the case, I've got a 120mm
case fan on the top blowing out the air, and it seems stable so far. Cross
your fingers. ;) 
Anonymous
February 15, 2005 1:02:26 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

60 degrees in the BIOS to turn the PC off is very conservative, up it up to
80 degrees and youll be fine :) 
Anonymous
February 17, 2005 12:37:37 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"OldDog" <OldDog@citypound.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
<snip>
>Several months ago, I upgraded my AMD 1800 with GeForce 3 to AMD 2800 with
>ATI 9800 Pro. At the time, I didn't realize how hot these new systems run.
>While I was at the pc store, I figured that I'd get a new case too. Some
>of the cases featured 4 and 5 fans.
>
>Now I like to try and keep up with pc tech stuff. But for some reason, I
>just looked at this feature (4/5 fans) and figured it was just a waste.
>Since the most I've ever used in the past was 2, I went with the cheaper
>case that supported just 2 fans. :( 
>
>With a big ass circular hole cut into the top of the case, I've got a 120mm
>case fan on the top blowing out the air, and it seems stable so far. Cross
>your fingers. ;) 

Most of the 120mm fans seem to push a goodly amount of air, even the
quiet ones. Some of those quiet 80mm ones on the other hand hardly
move any. I replaced the power supply fan in my old K6 based AT system
with one and it overheated since it was so feeble.
I will never buy another "stealth" fan.

I think the 120 I have moves something like 86 cubic feet per minute,
and I know that's not the highest.

The noise was slightly annoying at first, but now I hardly notice it at
all since it's a constant sound.

Oh one last hint.
If your system has a front intake fan (most seem to), it's probably not
very effective since a lot of the case makers just have a bunch of
drilled holes for it to move air through. Enlarging the opening can
boost the flow significantly.

I also cut away the "grid" of drilled holes on the back fan mounts to
boost air flow, since no one is likely to get anything caught in them
since the case is on the desk and I have neither kids nor pets.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
Anonymous
February 17, 2005 11:33:05 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"Xocyll" <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote in message
news:jfa911l20ktuvmamn9qk0b561hcklth6e0@4ax.com...
> "OldDog" <OldDog@citypound.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
> the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:
> <snip>
> >Several months ago, I upgraded my AMD 1800 with GeForce 3 to AMD 2800
with
> >ATI 9800 Pro. At the time, I didn't realize how hot these new systems
run.
> >While I was at the pc store, I figured that I'd get a new case too.
Some
> >of the cases featured 4 and 5 fans.
> >
> >Now I like to try and keep up with pc tech stuff. But for some reason,
I
> >just looked at this feature (4/5 fans) and figured it was just a waste.
> >Since the most I've ever used in the past was 2, I went with the cheaper
> >case that supported just 2 fans. :( 
> >
> >With a big ass circular hole cut into the top of the case, I've got a
120mm
> >case fan on the top blowing out the air, and it seems stable so far.
Cross
> >your fingers. ;) 
>
> Most of the 120mm fans seem to push a goodly amount of air, even the
> quiet ones. Some of those quiet 80mm ones on the other hand hardly
> move any. I replaced the power supply fan in my old K6 based AT system
> with one and it overheated since it was so feeble.
> I will never buy another "stealth" fan.
>
> I think the 120 I have moves something like 86 cubic feet per minute,
> and I know that's not the highest.
>
> The noise was slightly annoying at first, but now I hardly notice it at
> all since it's a constant sound.
>
> Oh one last hint.
> If your system has a front intake fan (most seem to), it's probably not
> very effective since a lot of the case makers just have a bunch of
> drilled holes for it to move air through. Enlarging the opening can
> boost the flow significantly.
>
> I also cut away the "grid" of drilled holes on the back fan mounts to
> boost air flow, since no one is likely to get anything caught in them
> since the case is on the desk and I have neither kids nor pets.
>
> Xocyll

I'll have to take a look at the bottom-front fan. I'm using it as an
inlet, along with the fan in the back of the case (this one blows right over
the cpu). The rear fan does have the metal/grill covering. With the new
hole on the top with 120mm far, the system hasn't crashed on me yet. I'm
using Speedfan to monitoring the cpu temp, and it hovers around 45deg C.

And you're right about the noise. It's a little louder now, but the noise
is constant so it doesn't bother me that much. Except sometimes when the
cat jumps up on the pc desk, he get's blown up to the ceiling. :) 
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 2:07:24 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"F r e e" <free@spam.nothanx> wrote in message
news:37ds3oF5avljkU1@individual.net...
> 60 degrees in the BIOS to turn the PC off is very conservative, up it up
to
> 80 degrees and youll be fine :) 
>
>
>

80deg C? Maybe if I wanted to fire bacon or my cpu.

Plus, I'll check my BIOS, but I don't think it goes that high.
!