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KOTOR 2 - low quality music

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Anonymous
February 10, 2005 3:16:55 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

I just bought Knights of the Old Republic 2 (PC) and discovered all
in-game music is low res mono! As near as I can tell from using
Soundforge, the music files are all 22Hz, 8-bit mono instead of 44Hz,
16-bit stereo, which makes very muddled, low-grade quality.

The difference is VERY noticeable to anybody who appreciates music, and
especially anybody who appreciates the Star Wars music. The only time
the quality is high is the main title crawl (Star Wars fanfare) in the
very beginning. After that, it's mono city.

It really pisses me off that Obsidian did this. I can only figure they
needed to milk performance gains for the graphics, so they
short-changed the music quality. Considering the graphics are not very
great to begin with, this is mystifying and I guess we chalk it up to
horrible coding. I mean, Half Life 2 or Far Cry have stunning graphics
and they can still feature music that's high quality, so WHAT GIVES?!?!

(Keep in mind the original KOTOR featured high quality stereo music,
which makes this even weirder).
Anonymous
February 10, 2005 4:55:16 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Voice acting and sound FX are still high quality.

Which is what makes playing the games (on headphones anyway) such a a
strange experience -- you have high quality voices/sound FX in EAX, yet
behind it you're listening to background music that sounds like it was
playing on an old 386 machine with an 8-bit Soundblaster card.
February 10, 2005 11:21:34 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg.]
On 2005-02-10, arcanastream@yahoo.com <arcanastream@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I just bought Knights of the Old Republic 2 (PC) and discovered all
> in-game music is low res mono! As near as I can tell from using
> Soundforge, the music files are all 22Hz, 8-bit mono instead of 44Hz,
> 16-bit stereo, which makes very muddled, low-grade quality.
>
> The difference is VERY noticeable to anybody who appreciates music, and
> especially anybody who appreciates the Star Wars music. The only time
> the quality is high is the main title crawl (Star Wars fanfare) in the
> very beginning. After that, it's mono city.

What about the voice and sound files? I think there's a lot of
voice acting in KOTOR2. Maybe more than the first so to get it to
fit on 4 CDs they had to lower the quality of music to make it
all fit.

It is too bad though :|
Related resources
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 12:44:25 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:21:34 GMT, shadows <shadows@whitefang.com>
wrote:

>["Followup-To:" header set to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg.]
>On 2005-02-10, arcanastream@yahoo.com <arcanastream@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I just bought Knights of the Old Republic 2 (PC) and discovered all
>> in-game music is low res mono! As near as I can tell from using
>> Soundforge, the music files are all 22Hz, 8-bit mono instead of 44Hz,
>> 16-bit stereo, which makes very muddled, low-grade quality.
>>
>> The difference is VERY noticeable to anybody who appreciates music, and
>> especially anybody who appreciates the Star Wars music. The only time
>> the quality is high is the main title crawl (Star Wars fanfare) in the
>> very beginning. After that, it's mono city.
>
>What about the voice and sound files? I think there's a lot of
>voice acting in KOTOR2. Maybe more than the first so to get it to
>fit on 4 CDs they had to lower the quality of music to make it
>all fit.
>
>It is too bad though :|
>


LucasArts probably ' forgot ' that most modern PCs in the United
States have DVD-roms.

Obsidian probably did as they were told by the distributors in terms
of compression for US distribution.

The European release of Kotor2(PC) will probably be on DVD-rom with
full-bandwidth music.... grrrrrrrrrr...... Far Cry was distributed in
Europe on DVD; at least in the US, Ubisoft used sufficient number of
CDs for the game content not to suffer any quality loss.

John Lewis
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 1:50:09 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

arcanastream@yahoo.com wrote:
> I just bought Knights of the Old Republic 2 (PC) and discovered all
> in-game music is low res mono! As near as I can tell from using
> Soundforge, the music files are all 22Hz, 8-bit mono instead of 44Hz,
> 16-bit stereo, which makes very muddled, low-grade quality.
>
> The difference is VERY noticeable to anybody who appreciates music,
> and especially anybody who appreciates the Star Wars music. The only
> time the quality is high is the main title crawl (Star Wars fanfare)
> in the very beginning. After that, it's mono city.
>
> It really pisses me off that Obsidian did this. I can only figure they
> needed to milk performance gains for the graphics, so they
> short-changed the music quality. Considering the graphics are not very
> great to begin with, this is mystifying and I guess we chalk it up to
> horrible coding. I mean, Half Life 2 or Far Cry have stunning graphics
> and they can still feature music that's high quality, so WHAT
> GIVES?!?!
>
> (Keep in mind the original KOTOR featured high quality stereo music,
> which makes this even weirder).

yeah I read that in the pc gamer review thats a bugger, but apart from that
whats the game like and how does it compare to the original? no spoilers
please

--


You're not a God, you're a birthday cake!
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 1:54:30 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"John Lewis" <john.dsl@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:420bd3fc.21055608@news.verizon.net...
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:21:34 GMT, shadows <shadows@whitefang.com>
> wrote:
>
> >["Followup-To:" header set to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg.]
> >On 2005-02-10, arcanastream@yahoo.com <arcanastream@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> I just bought Knights of the Old Republic 2 (PC) and discovered all
> >> in-game music is low res mono! As near as I can tell from using
> >> Soundforge, the music files are all 22Hz, 8-bit mono instead of 44Hz,
> >> 16-bit stereo, which makes very muddled, low-grade quality.
> >>
> >> The difference is VERY noticeable to anybody who appreciates music, and
> >> especially anybody who appreciates the Star Wars music. The only time
> >> the quality is high is the main title crawl (Star Wars fanfare) in the
> >> very beginning. After that, it's mono city.
> >
> >What about the voice and sound files? I think there's a lot of
> >voice acting in KOTOR2. Maybe more than the first so to get it to
> >fit on 4 CDs they had to lower the quality of music to make it
> >all fit.
> >
> >It is too bad though :|
> >
>
>
> LucasArts probably ' forgot ' that most modern PCs in the United
> States have DVD-roms.
>
> Obsidian probably did as they were told by the distributors in terms
> of compression for US distribution.
>
> The European release of Kotor2(PC) will probably be on DVD-rom with
> full-bandwidth music.... grrrrrrrrrr...... Far Cry was distributed in
> Europe on DVD; at least in the US, Ubisoft used sufficient number of
> CDs for the game content not to suffer any quality loss.
>
> John Lewis
>


Unfortunately it's seems we're getting cd's too:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/...

--
Derek
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 4:04:14 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Stoned Monkey" <tenny2k@NOSPAMrtennant.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cugof2$bik$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> arcanastream@yahoo.com wrote:
>> I just bought Knights of the Old Republic 2 (PC) and discovered all
>> in-game music is low res mono! As near as I can tell from using
>> Soundforge, the music files are all 22Hz, 8-bit mono instead of 44Hz,
>> 16-bit stereo, which makes very muddled, low-grade quality.
>>
>> The difference is VERY noticeable to anybody who appreciates music,
>> and especially anybody who appreciates the Star Wars music. The only
>> time the quality is high is the main title crawl (Star Wars fanfare)
>> in the very beginning. After that, it's mono city.
>>
>> It really pisses me off that Obsidian did this. I can only figure they
>> needed to milk performance gains for the graphics, so they
>> short-changed the music quality. Considering the graphics are not very
>> great to begin with, this is mystifying and I guess we chalk it up to
>> horrible coding. I mean, Half Life 2 or Far Cry have stunning graphics
>> and they can still feature music that's high quality, so WHAT
>> GIVES?!?!
>>
>> (Keep in mind the original KOTOR featured high quality stereo music,
>> which makes this even weirder).
>
> yeah I read that in the pc gamer review thats a bugger, but apart from
> that whats the game like and how does it compare to the original? no
> spoilers please

I'd be curious to know whether it's as much a bugfest as the original.

It's ridiculous when something that's normally a bug (crashes if you alt-tab
away from it) becomes one the game's most handy features because it locks up
so often (or just starts a ridiculous long and UNINTERRUPTABLE cutscene)
that alt-tabbing away is the most convenient way to kill the game and get
your computer back.
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 5:36:43 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Stoned Monkey" <tenny2k@NOSPAMrtennant.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cugof2$bik$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
<snip>
> > (Keep in mind the original KOTOR featured high quality stereo music,
> > which makes this even weirder).
>
> yeah I read that in the pc gamer review thats a bugger, but apart from
that
> whats the game like and how does it compare to the original? no spoilers
> please
>


I actually restarted the original game about 4 days ago. Half Life 2 just
ran out of steam for me. ;) 

From the few reviews that I've read, if you enjoyed the first game, you'll
probably like the new one too.

http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/starwarskn...
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 6:02:59 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"OldDog" <OldDog@citypound.com> wrote in message
news:%SUOd.33354$uL5.21436@fe2.texas.rr.com...
>
> "Stoned Monkey" <tenny2k@NOSPAMrtennant.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:cugof2$bik$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> <snip>
>> > (Keep in mind the original KOTOR featured high quality stereo music,
>> > which makes this even weirder).
>>
>> yeah I read that in the pc gamer review thats a bugger, but apart from
> that
>> whats the game like and how does it compare to the original? no spoilers
>> please
>>
>
>
> I actually restarted the original game about 4 days ago. Half Life 2
> just
> ran out of steam for me. ;) 
>
> From the few reviews that I've read, if you enjoyed the first game,

Liked the replayability.

Hated the bugginess.

Liked the story.

Hated the uninterruptible cutscenes.

Even liked the silly little NPC stories (but not the interrupt-driven way
you were alerted to them.)

Hated the stupid little unpredictable banter between NPC's that broke
gameflow. I want to travel with helpful teammates, not timebombs, thank you.

Liked being able to play a bad guy. Didn't like being forced to take a
particular NPC as a partner if you made the "bad" choice at the end.

Hated *WITH A PASSION* that STOOPID turret minigame. I hope they spanked the
idiot who put that in with an extra-charged double-bladed lightsaber. I
understand all minigames are optional in the sequel, though.

Loved the [cough, cough] NO INTERNET REQUIREMENT.

Hated Pazaak. Would have been ok if it was least a level playing field.


Well... I liked it, I hated it. Think I'll wait and see on this one.




>
> http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/starwarskn...
>
>
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 6:13:04 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

SpammersDie wrote:
> "OldDog" <OldDog@citypound.com> wrote in message
> news:%SUOd.33354$uL5.21436@fe2.texas.rr.com...
>
>>"Stoned Monkey" <tenny2k@NOSPAMrtennant.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:cugof2$bik$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>><snip>
>>
>>>>(Keep in mind the original KOTOR featured high quality stereo music,
>>>>which makes this even weirder).
>>>
>>>yeah I read that in the pc gamer review thats a bugger, but apart from
>>
>>that
>>
>>>whats the game like and how does it compare to the original? no spoilers
>>>please
>>>
>>
>>
>>I actually restarted the original game about 4 days ago. Half Life 2
>>just
>>ran out of steam for me. ;) 
>>
>>From the few reviews that I've read, if you enjoyed the first game,
>
>
> Liked the replayability.
>
> Hated the bugginess.
>
> Liked the story.
>
> Hated the uninterruptible cutscenes.
>
> Even liked the silly little NPC stories (but not the interrupt-driven way
> you were alerted to them.)
>
> Hated the stupid little unpredictable banter between NPC's that broke
> gameflow. I want to travel with helpful teammates, not timebombs, thank you.
>
> Liked being able to play a bad guy. Didn't like being forced to take a
> particular NPC as a partner if you made the "bad" choice at the end.
>
> Hated *WITH A PASSION* that STOOPID turret minigame. I hope they spanked the
> idiot who put that in with an extra-charged double-bladed lightsaber. I
> understand all minigames are optional in the sequel, though.
>
> Loved the [cough, cough] NO INTERNET REQUIREMENT.
>
> Hated Pazaak. Would have been ok if it was least a level playing field.
>
>
> Well... I liked it, I hated it. Think I'll wait and see on this one.
>

Funny. Most of the things you hated, I liked. ;) 

Not the bugginess of course, and sometimes I wanted to skip cutscenes
I'd seen in a previous playthrough, but I DID like the banter between
the NPC's because I didn't know they had anything to say initially. Even
after playing KotOR a lot I'm sure there are still conversations I've
missed because I hadn't tried taking certain combinations of NPC's out
with me for long enough.

The game has two different endings and ways to lead to those endings.
The fact that the critical decision you make near the end of the game
forces you to follow a different sequence of events should have been a
highlight I'd have thought. The turrent minigame did get kinda annoying
though, and I hear it's still in KotOR 2. Oh well.

As for not needing the net, well, only Valve do things like that. ;) 
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 6:26:27 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"GFree" <nickt4001@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:420c22be$1@yorrell.saard.net...
> SpammersDie wrote:
>> "OldDog" <OldDog@citypound.com> wrote in message
>> news:%SUOd.33354$uL5.21436@fe2.texas.rr.com...
>>
>>>"Stoned Monkey" <tenny2k@NOSPAMrtennant.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>news:cugof2$bik$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>(Keep in mind the original KOTOR featured high quality stereo music,
>>>>>which makes this even weirder).
>>>>
>>>>yeah I read that in the pc gamer review thats a bugger, but apart from
>>>
>>>that
>>>
>>>>whats the game like and how does it compare to the original? no spoilers
>>>>please
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I actually restarted the original game about 4 days ago. Half Life 2
>>>just
>>>ran out of steam for me. ;) 
>>>
>>>From the few reviews that I've read, if you enjoyed the first game,
>>
>>
>> Liked the replayability.
>>
>> Hated the bugginess.
>>
>> Liked the story.
>>
>> Hated the uninterruptible cutscenes.
>>
>> Even liked the silly little NPC stories (but not the interrupt-driven way
>> you were alerted to them.)
>>
>> Hated the stupid little unpredictable banter between NPC's that broke
>> gameflow. I want to travel with helpful teammates, not timebombs, thank
>> you.
>>
>> Liked being able to play a bad guy. Didn't like being forced to take a
>> particular NPC as a partner if you made the "bad" choice at the end.
>>
>> Hated *WITH A PASSION* that STOOPID turret minigame. I hope they spanked
>> the idiot who put that in with an extra-charged double-bladed lightsaber.
>> I understand all minigames are optional in the sequel, though.
>>
>> Loved the [cough, cough] NO INTERNET REQUIREMENT.
>>
>> Hated Pazaak. Would have been ok if it was least a level playing field.
>>
>>
>> Well... I liked it, I hated it. Think I'll wait and see on this one.
>>
>
> Funny. Most of the things you hated, I liked. ;) 
>
> Not the bugginess of course, and sometimes I wanted to skip cutscenes I'd
> seen in a previous playthrough, but I DID like the banter between the
> NPC's because I didn't know they had anything to say initially. Even after
> playing KotOR a lot I'm sure there are still conversations I've missed
> because I hadn't tried taking certain combinations of NPC's out with me
> for long enough.

[Gonna add spoiler warnings for KOTOR 1 now so I can talk more
specifically...]

It's not the banter so much as the fact that you have no control over its
timing. I'm a control freak when I play games, see...



> The game has two different endings and ways to lead to those endings. The
> fact that the critical decision you make near the end of the game forces
> you to follow a different sequence of events should have been a highlight
> I'd have thought.

Oh I agree, but my beef isn't with the fact that the plot forks, it's about
the way it unfolds for the bad guy. If you make the "evil" choice, you're
forced to have Bastilla in your party during the SF sequence (and it's not
even the same Bastilla that you built up! Her powers and stats are all
reset.) You can't ditch her, you can't leave without her, you can't betray
and kill her, even though any of those things would be consistent with my
character. And even worse, you lose half the other party members, although
that's admittedly pretty logical given the choice you made. Still that goes
against the whole idea of an RPG and it's just way too high a price to pay,
especially since badness is supposed to be a legitimate choice in this game.

So all too frequently, I end up playing the bad guy all the way to that
choice point, then gritting my teeth and taking the "good" choice and taking
the huge lightside penalty that comes with it just so I can finish the game
with the same party members and combat style that I've chosen for the other
90% of the game.


> As for not needing the net, well, only Valve do things like that. ;) 

We hope...
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 6:45:53 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

SpammersDie wrote:
>
> [Gonna add spoiler warnings for KOTOR 1 now so I can talk more
> specifically...]
>
> It's not the banter so much as the fact that you have no control over its
> timing. I'm a control freak when I play games, see...
>

Fair enough. One of the reasons I like the suddenness though is that if
you're running around, going from one place to another, that takes time,
and so if the game throws in this sudden banter without warning it
breaks the monotony and adds a little life to the setting.

>
>>The game has two different endings and ways to lead to those endings. The
>>fact that the critical decision you make near the end of the game forces
>>you to follow a different sequence of events should have been a highlight
>>I'd have thought.
>
>
> Oh I agree, but my beef isn't with the fact that the plot forks, it's about
> the way it unfolds for the bad guy. If you make the "evil" choice, you're
> forced to have Bastilla in your party during the SF sequence (and it's not
> even the same Bastilla that you built up! Her powers and stats are all
> reset.) You can't ditch her, you can't leave without her, you can't betray
> and kill her, even though any of those things would be consistent with my
> character. And even worse, you lose half the other party members, although
> that's admittedly pretty logical given the choice you made. Still that goes
> against the whole idea of an RPG and it's just way too high a price to pay,
> especially since badness is supposed to be a legitimate choice in this game.
>
> So all too frequently, I end up playing the bad guy all the way to that
> choice point, then gritting my teeth and taking the "good" choice and taking
> the huge lightside penalty that comes with it just so I can finish the game
> with the same party members and combat style that I've chosen for the other
> 90% of the game.
>

Point taken. Perhaps KotOR 2 will be different, I have yet to find out.

>
>>As for not needing the net, well, only Valve do things like that. ;) 
>
>
> We hope...
>

I have heard of other developers supposedly having an interest in Steam,
so...
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 7:55:55 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:21:34 GMT, shadows <shadows@whitefang.com>
wrote:

>["Followup-To:" header set to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg.]
>On 2005-02-10, arcanastream@yahoo.com <arcanastream@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I just bought Knights of the Old Republic 2 (PC) and discovered all
>> in-game music is low res mono! As near as I can tell from using
>> Soundforge, the music files are all 22Hz, 8-bit mono instead of 44Hz,
>> 16-bit stereo, which makes very muddled, low-grade quality.
>>
>> The difference is VERY noticeable to anybody who appreciates music, and
>> especially anybody who appreciates the Star Wars music. The only time
>> the quality is high is the main title crawl (Star Wars fanfare) in the
>> very beginning. After that, it's mono city.
>
>What about the voice and sound files? I think there's a lot of
>voice acting in KOTOR2. Maybe more than the first so to get it to
>fit on 4 CDs they had to lower the quality of music to make it
>all fit.
>
>It is too bad though :|
>


LucasArts probably ' forgot ' that most modern PCs in the United
States have DVD-roms.

Obsidian probably did as they were told by the distributors in terms
of compression for US distribution.

The European release of Kotor2(PC) will probably be on DVD-rom with
full-bandwidth music.... grrrrrrrrrr...... Far Cry was distributed in
Europe on DVD; at least in the US, Ubisoft used sufficient number of
CDs for the game content not to suffer any quality loss.

John Lewis
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 1:28:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg SpammersDie <xx@xx.xx> wrote:

[when choosing the dark side]
>
> And even worse, you lose half the other party members, although
> that's admittedly pretty logical given the choice you made. Still that goes
> against the whole idea of an RPG and it's just way too high a price to pay,
> especially since badness is supposed to be a legitimate choice in this game.

Why would this go against the whole idea of an RPG? In a real RPG, NPCs
should have their own goals and motivations, and if they disagree with
what you're doing, it makes sense that they leave, or even try to stop
you. In too many CRPGs, they are loyal to the end, no matter what you do.

It would have been nice if there had been some potential party members
that would only follow you if you choose the dark side, though. Or maybe
they stay when you choose the light side, but they're more trouble than
they're worth, while they'd really shine if you choose the dark side.
Something like that.


mcv.
Anonymous
February 12, 2005 12:52:17 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"mcv" <mcvmcv@xs3.xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:420c88e9$0$28976$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg SpammersDie <xx@xx.xx> wrote:
>
> [when choosing the dark side]
>>
>> And even worse, you lose half the other party members, although
>> that's admittedly pretty logical given the choice you made. Still that
>> goes
>> against the whole idea of an RPG and it's just way too high a price to
>> pay,
>> especially since badness is supposed to be a legitimate choice in this
>> game.
>
> Why would this go against the whole idea of an RPG? In a real RPG, NPCs
> should have their own goals and motivations, and if they disagree with
> what you're doing, it makes sense that they leave, or even try to stop
> you.

Sure but in a real RPG, I could also backstab them before they try to stop
me or extort them into helping me or for that matter, why even let them know
I've gone bad - they didn't witness what happened at the temple roof. But
with KOTOR, you can't even attack your enemies until they give you
permission by turning "red" let alone explore options like that - there's
got to be some give and take for that.

Anyway, the thing I was getting at with the "go against the whole idea" was
that much of the fun of CRPGs comes from customizing the character's feats
and powers the way *you* want, and then testing your builds against the
enemies. You can choose to be an upclose saber-wielding melee monster, you
can be a scary dark mage, you can even build a team of Han Solo blaster
marksmen (despite what everyone says about how weak KOTOR ranged weapons
are) Here, you're suddenly stuck with a mandatory team member that's already
at level 18 with feats and powers that Bioware (not you) chose and if
neither HK nor Canderous fit your chosen play style (or T3 but who would
take him onto the SF :) , you're hosed. Suddenly for the last and most
difficult segment of the game, you have to change your style of play
radically unless your own character is self-sufficient - except whoops, you
don't even have the option to go solo.

That's too severe a consequence, in my book.


>In too many CRPGs, they are loyal to the end, no matter what you do.
>
> It would have been nice if there had been some potential party members
> that would only follow you if you choose the dark side, though. Or maybe
> they stay when you choose the light side, but they're more trouble than
> they're worth, while they'd really shine if you choose the dark side.

Actually, Bastilla on the SF is "more trouble than they're worth" ; unwanted
team members can be as much a liability as an asset at that part of game,
thanks to all the trapped floor tiles that spawn new enemies.

The problem is that (1) my character had no need for Bastilla at that point.
(Why did I need to kill Malak myself if the Republic fleet could just do the
job for me?) (2) my character couldn't kill her or leave her behind, again
not because of my choices, but because the game forces it. That doesn't feel
like roleplaying.
Anonymous
February 12, 2005 1:57:12 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"SpammersDie" <xx@xx.xx> wrote in message
news:D fVOd.189042$w62.121549@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

<snip>

>
> Loved the [cough, cough] NO INTERNET REQUIREMENT.
>
> Hated Pazaak. Would have been ok if it was least a level playing field.
>
>
> Well... I liked it, I hated it. Think I'll wait and see on this one.
>

I liked two of the weapons in this game. The gravity gun has to be my fav.
Picking up things and tossing them around was pretty cool ... but you can
only do this for so long until you realize that you want to pick up even
bigger things and toss them around, but can't. :( 

The other weapon was the one where you could pick up saw blades and fire
them at the enemy heads and cut them off. But for some reason, this was
only used on one level (as far as I can remember).
Anonymous
February 12, 2005 6:58:15 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

>
> The only reason why they wouldn't fit your play style, would be if you
> want to do only melee combat, in which case you can take Big Z with you.

I don't think Big Z can be a member of your party if you take the dark path.
But usually, if I need an extra melee monster, Canderous is my choice for
that anyway. His stats are better suited towards melee combat despite
starting with a heavy blaster.


>
>> Suddenly for the last and most
>> difficult segment of the game, you have to change your style of play
>> radically unless your own character is self-sufficient - except whoops,
>> you
>> don't even have the option to go solo.
>
> You're a Jedi. How can you not be self-sufficient?

In most builds, I am. If I'm playing some particularly unusual challenge
game, e.g. pure spell caster, no physical weapons, I like to have Jolee
around as a backup spellcaster. Or heck sometimes, I like to shun Jedi
powers altogether and beat the game with conventional weapons only just to
show those stuck up Jedi that us non-Jedi should not be underestimated.


>> The problem is that (1) my character had no need for Bastilla at that
>> point.
>> (Why did I need to kill Malak myself if the Republic fleet could just do
>> the
>> job for me?) (2) my character couldn't kill her or leave her behind,
>> again
>> not because of my choices, but because the game forces it. That doesn't
>> feel
>> like roleplaying.
>
> Was it really impossible to play without party members? At the very least,
> you could simply get her killed, right?

You can't not have her in the party during the SF, yes. (Believe me, I have
tried.)

Getting her killed is probably the best available solution here - you'll
have to do it several times since she'll awaken every time there's a lull in
combat and it'll mean some extra management to keep her from running ahead
and activating the next enemy spawn.
February 12, 2005 10:46:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg.]
On 2005-02-12, mcv <mcvmcv@xs2.xs4all.nl> wrote:

> That's a good point. You can't talk to hostile enemies, and you can't
> attack friendly people. I can see why, from a play balance point of view,
> but if you could have that freedom without losing play balance, that'd
> be a lot better.

Remember Arcanum? You could enter any city and slaughter
everyone. Then pick up the item which leads you onto the next
quest. Pretty boring.

I think the KOTOR series strikes the correct balance in this
regard.
Anonymous
February 12, 2005 11:56:40 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"shadows" <shadows@whitefang.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd0sn9q.19lv.shadows@helena.whitefang.com...
> ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg.]
> On 2005-02-12, mcv <mcvmcv@xs2.xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
>> That's a good point. You can't talk to hostile enemies, and you can't
>> attack friendly people. I can see why, from a play balance point of view,
>> but if you could have that freedom without losing play balance, that'd
>> be a lot better.
>
> Remember Arcanum? You could enter any city and slaughter
> everyone. Then pick up the item which leads you onto the next
> quest. Pretty boring.

Yeah, that's pretty lame. But...

>
> I think the KOTOR series strikes the correct balance in this
> regard.

Where KOTOR abused the privilege is when NPC's that are irredeemably enemies
are still marked as friendly just so you can't attack them until you get
near enough to trigger a cinematic so they can say marvelously plot-critical
lines like "Darth Malak was very displeased to hear of your escape from
Taris." Meantime, the game grabs control of your character so he's forced to
sit there like a log listening to his enemy taunt instead of doing something
useful (like um, attacking). Also the game repositions all your party
members (into usually bad tactical positions) and the game is in full close
combat mode as soon as you get control back. I actually forgot to list this
as one on my cons on my original list - KOTOR AI's uses cinematics as
weapons throughout the game and that's just wrong. If you must use
cutscenes, they should be used only to impart truly critical plot
information and never interfere with your PC's ability to defend himself.
February 13, 2005 1:35:52 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:57:12 GMT, "OldDog" <OldDog@citypound.com>
wrote:

>
>"SpammersDie" <xx@xx.xx> wrote in message
>news:D fVOd.189042$w62.121549@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
><snip>
>
>>
>> Loved the [cough, cough] NO INTERNET REQUIREMENT.
>>
>> Hated Pazaak. Would have been ok if it was least a level playing field.
>>
>>
>> Well... I liked it, I hated it. Think I'll wait and see on this one.
>>
>
>I liked two of the weapons in this game. The gravity gun has to be my fav.
>Picking up things and tossing them around was pretty cool ... but you can
>only do this for so long until you realize that you want to pick up even
>bigger things and toss them around, but can't. :( 
>
>The other weapon was the one where you could pick up saw blades and fire
>them at the enemy heads and cut them off. But for some reason, this was
>only used on one level (as far as I can remember).

There's a KOTOR2 mod for Half Life 2?
!