Copy protection information?

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

Is there an easy way to find out what copy protection a particular title
uses?

In particular, I've heard Starforce or somesuch scheme sabotages your
machine, so obviously I don't want to go near any titles that use it -
not even the demos thereof, because I've heard the demos in some cases
contain the copy protection code. Is there anything like a web page with
a list of what games use what schemes?

Thanks,

--
"Always look on the bright side of life."
To reply by email, replace no.spam with my last name.
79 answers Last reply
More about copy protection information
  1. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    "Russell Wallace" <russell.no.spam@gmail.com> wrote in message
    news:u8OYd.49421$Z14.37881@news.indigo.ie...
    > Is there an easy way to find out what copy protection a particular title
    > uses?
    >
    > In particular, I've heard Starforce or somesuch scheme sabotages your
    > machine, so obviously I don't want to go near any titles that use it - not
    > even the demos thereof, because I've heard the demos in some cases contain
    > the copy protection code. Is there anything like a web page with a list of
    > what games use what schemes?
    >
    > Thanks,
    >
    http://www.softpedia.com/get/CD-DVD-Tools/CD-DVD-Images-Utils/ClonyXXL.shtml

    http://www.makeabackup.com/database.html

    Google is your friend...
  2. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    Kill Bill wrote:
    > http://www.softpedia.com/get/CD-DVD-Tools/CD-DVD-Images-Utils/ClonyXXL.shtml
    >
    > http://www.makeabackup.com/database.html
    >
    > Google is your friend...

    I did Google, just didn't use the right search keys :) That's just what
    I was looking for, thanks!

    Do I understand correctly that Safedisc and Securom are okay (they just
    try to prevent the game running without the original disk in the drive,
    so worst case is that one ends up returning the game for a refund if
    they don't work), Starforce being the only one that risks screwing up
    your machine?

    --
    "Always look on the bright side of life."
    To reply by email, replace no.spam with my last name.
  3. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    "Russell Wallace" <russell.no.spam@gmail.com> wrote in message
    news:w8PYd.49423$Z14.37610@news.indigo.ie...
    > Kill Bill wrote:
    > >
    http://www.softpedia.com/get/CD-DVD-Tools/CD-DVD-Images-Utils/ClonyXXL.shtml
    > >
    > > http://www.makeabackup.com/database.html
    > >
    > > Google is your friend...
    >
    > I did Google, just didn't use the right search keys :) That's just what
    > I was looking for, thanks!
    >
    > Do I understand correctly that Safedisc and Securom are okay (they just
    > try to prevent the game running without the original disk in the drive,
    > so worst case is that one ends up returning the game for a refund if
    > they don't work), Starforce being the only one that risks screwing up
    > your machine?
    >

    http://www.firingsquad.com/features/starforce_interview/

    "In recent months there's been an increasing awareness and alarm over
    StarForce copy protection. It's actually a driver that installs itself with
    the games that come shipped with it, and originally it didn't uninstall when
    the game was uninstalled. There are many panicked reports about "StarForce
    disabled/fried my USB flash scanner/ATA drive/CD drive". Having lived
    through several internet panics like this - from the V-chip through CD keys
    to Senator Joe Lieberman's bills on game sales to minors - and generally
    having participated on the wrong side of them - I was skeptical. I've
    learned that if there's one thing that the internet is good at, it's
    spreading rumors and unnecessary hyperbolic panic. Like I said, I was part
    of that myself in earlier times."
  4. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Russell Wallace wrote:

    > Is there an easy way to find out what copy protection a particular title
    > uses?

    yes there is and your concerns are very important so you can defend your
    own consumer rights as a pc gamer

    check the link you already have, but please pay attention that there is
    no need to backup a pc game if you take good care of your pc games, and
    don't make copies to give to others cause that damages very much all of
    us who like and support pc games, also don't forget leading is also very
    bad for pc games

    when checking the link you should pay attention to the following:
    .. no need to backup pc games if you take good care of them
    .. use the information to check wrong copy protections like starforce
    .. don't ever make copies of your pc games and give them to others,
    cause that's piracy and its the biggest threat and problem we have
    .. don't even lend your own pc games and only use them yourself, if
    a friend wants to play a game you own, let him play in your own pc
    and if we wants to play it in his own pc help him find the best deal
    available so he can get his own copy for him to use

    > In particular, I've heard Starforce or somesuch scheme sabotages your
    > machine, so obviously I don't want to go near any titles that use it -

    i said no to starforce!
    i think its a very wrong copy protection!
    i always check to see if a pc game has starforce, if it has i say no to
    it, but please never forget if a publisher decides to use starforce its
    cause pirates made him so
    its fighting against piracy that is the true fight against starforce!
    fight piracy and that will make starforce go away!

    have good honest supporting pc gaming free of starforce!
  5. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Russell Wallace wrote:

    > Do I understand correctly that Safedisc and Securom are okay (they just
    > try to prevent the game running without the original disk in the drive,

    exactly
    safedisc and securom are totally safe
    to have a completely free experience with cd copy protection i suggest
    you do the following
    .. take very good care of your pc games
    .. always use a cd-rom drive reader to play pc games
    .. don't hesitate in buying a new cd-rom drive cause its so cheap and
    so easy to install cause the newer the drive the best it can handle
    all available cd copy protections

    don't forget cd copy protection is needed cause there are lots of scum
    thief criminals who robe pc games and damage us all, so these kinds of
    cd copy protection try the best to fight against criminals like those
    we should only blame scum pirates for cd copy protection not publishers

    > so worst case is that one ends up returning the game for a refund if
    > they don't work), Starforce being the only one that risks screwing up
    > your machine?

    believe me if you use a new cd-rom reader only drive and you take good
    care of your pc games, you will never need to return any game featuring
    safedisk or secumrom! you will always be able to totally enjoy the game
    you bought

    as for starforce obviously some of the scenarios we listen are a little
    bit exaggerated but the important thing is, starforce is very wrong and
    publishers need to know we will not buy any game with is

    fortunately the majority of publishers don't use starforce, thank god!
  6. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, "OldDog" wrote:

    if its to protect your master you do your best!
    if its to protect pc gamers you don't even try enough!

    i know you can do much much better sir!
    so shame on you for only trying when its to clean the dirt
    your master makes!
  7. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 03:07:50 +0000, Russell Wallace
    <russell.no.spam@gmail.com> wrote:

    >Is there an easy way to find out what copy protection a particular title
    >uses?
    >
    >In particular, I've heard Starforce or somesuch scheme sabotages your
    >machine, so obviously I don't want to go near any titles that use it -
    >not even the demos thereof, because I've heard the demos in some cases
    >contain the copy protection code. Is there anything like a web page with
    >a list of what games use what schemes?
    >
    >Thanks,

    A modest proposal....

    StarForce should be identified on the game package, in the game
    manual, on the game CD or DVD and in the EULA.

    The removal tool should be installed by the game with a desktop icon.

    StarForce, if it finds something it doesn't like, should put up this
    splashscreen BEFORE a game starts:

    "Before your copy of (name of game) can run, you must disable (name of
    app) or uninstall (name of app) or remove (name of piece of hardware).
    Once you have done this, please reboot your system and restart your
    copy of (name of game)."

    Of course, if StarForce finds nothing objectionable, the game simply
    starts.

    Would that really be that difficult?

    While I find the idea of copy control annoying, I understand why
    companies think it's necessary.

    What I don't understand is why companies think it's OK to fail (or
    refuse) to disclose information that legitimate buyers need to
    actually enjoy their games.

    I can't comply if I'm not told the rules.
  8. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 05:28:01 GMT, "OldDog" <OldDog@city.pound> wrote:


    >"In recent months there's been an increasing awareness and alarm over
    >StarForce copy protection. It's actually a driver that installs itself with
    >the games that come shipped with it, and originally it didn't uninstall when
    >the game was uninstalled. There are many panicked reports about "StarForce
    >disabled/fried my USB flash scanner/ATA drive/CD drive". Having lived
    >through several internet panics like this - from the V-chip through CD keys
    >to Senator Joe Lieberman's bills on game sales to minors - and generally
    >having participated on the wrong side of them - I was skeptical. I've
    >learned that if there's one thing that the internet is good at, it's
    >spreading rumors and unnecessary hyperbolic panic. Like I said, I was part
    >of that myself in earlier times."
    >

    Yea, well, here's something that someone tested with Starforce the
    other day. Using Nero you can still burn data, music disks etc. but
    when you try to burn an ISO it CTD's.
  9. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    Thusly "OldDog" <OldDog@city.pound> Spake Unto All:

    >http://www.firingsquad.com/features/starforce_interview/

    On the other hand, that's an uncritical interview with the PR
    representative of the company making the crud. The things she says is
    what she'd say even if it ate small children. ESPECIALLY if it ate
    small children, in fact, to avoid liability.
    The interviewer even lets her get away with starforce "not realizing"
    people might be upset that their driver (which doesn't accept the
    presence of any software it deems helpful to pirates) was installed
    without warning and *left running* after the game was uninstalled.

    Personally I hate and despise CD-based copy protection. It has no
    other function than to punish legitimate users who wish to (legally)
    back up their CD's, because contrary to the fluff spouted by the PR
    representative of starforce, it offers no better protection against
    casual copiers than any other method, and zero protection against the
    warez-groups.
    CD-based copy protection is something saynotodifool could legitimately
    obsess about.

    And this is the worst of all CD-based copy protection schemes.
  10. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    "Russell Wallace" wrote...

    > In particular, I've heard Starforce or somesuch scheme sabotages your
    > machine, so obviously I don't want to go near any titles that use it -
    <snip>

    > "Always look on the bright side of life."

    Hahaha.... yeah.... I bet that includes thinking StarForce is trying to
    sabotage your PC ;)
  11. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:27:50 -0600, himrlipid wrote:
    >A modest proposal....
    >
    <SNIP>
    >
    >I can't comply if I'm not told the rules.

    That's far too sensible a proposal for them to adopt :)

    They'd probably claim that disclosing the copy protection method gives
    the hackers a head start, but I'll bet they're really worried that it
    would put some purchasers off.

    --
    Alfie
    <http://www.delphia.co.uk/>
    The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard.
  12. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:48:27 -0800, Connected <connected@somewhere.here>
    wrote:
    >Yea, well, here's something that someone tested with Starforce the
    >other day. Using Nero you can still burn data, music disks etc. but
    >when you try to burn an ISO it CTD's.

    Great, and I know Nero is still pre-installed by some PC suppliers in
    the UK on systems with CDRWs. There'll be a whole host of unhappy
    customers not knowing why there game won't work :(

    --
    Alfie
    <http://www.delphia.co.uk/>
    Paper clips are the larval stage of coat hangers.
  13. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    "Mean_Chlorine" <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:23e831p9sqgs7badgl0c122ojs7k0ou4ak@4ax.com...
    > Thusly "OldDog" <OldDog@city.pound> Spake Unto All:
    >
    > >http://www.firingsquad.com/features/starforce_interview/
    >
    > On the other hand, that's an uncritical interview with the PR
    > representative of the company making the crud. The things she says is
    > what she'd say even if it ate small children. ESPECIALLY if it ate
    > small children, in fact, to avoid liability.
    > The interviewer even lets her get away with starforce "not realizing"
    > people might be upset that their driver (which doesn't accept the
    > presence of any software it deems helpful to pirates) was installed
    > without warning and *left running* after the game was uninstalled.
    >

    I don't think the intent of the interview was to set them down and grilled
    them for 2hrs. But rather to give the company a chance to tell their side
    of the story.

    As to "not realizing" people might... as someone that has had to deliver
    software to users, I've been there. As hard as I tried to give them what I
    thought was needed, I was usually met with "Why doesn't it do this or that?"
    & "And how come I have to do ....?"

    So they made a mistake and left a driving installed. Have they fixed that
    based on user feedback? If so, next issue.


    > Personally I hate and despise CD-based copy protection. It has no
    > other function than to punish legitimate users who wish to (legally)
    > back up their CD's, because contrary to the fluff spouted by the PR
    > representative of starforce, it offers no better protection against
    > casual copiers than any other method, and zero protection against the
    > warez-groups.

    I'm not big on it either, but I don't like having to lock my doors at night
    either.

    > CD-based copy protection is something saynotodifool could legitimately
    > obsess about.
    >
    > And this is the worst of all CD-based copy protection schemes.
    >

    If if fact they have cleared up the driver issue, in your opinion, what's
    the biggest draw back of StarForce?

    Also, how would a user know if it's on a new game that he brought?
  14. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:41:16 GMT, "OldDog" <OldDog@city.pound> wrote:

    <SNIP>
    >If if fact they have cleared up the driver issue, in your opinion, what's
    >the biggest draw back of StarForce?

    That it produces bizarre system behavior if it finds something it
    doesn't like. And no one is willing to step forward and list the
    things it doesn't like.

    Bizarre system behavior includes tossing drives into MS-DOS
    Compatibility Mode and, upon rebooting, the entire system into Safe
    Mode. This does not end with uninstalling the game. The StarForce
    drivers need to be removed and it seems that StarForce will remove the
    removal tool if it finds it during the installation of a game.

    So, if you want the tool on hand, it had better be on a CD or a
    diskette because it won't be on your system once StarForce is in
    place.

    >
    >Also, how would a user know if it's on a new game that he brought?
    >

    He wouldn't until he had to enter two strings of numbers: One during
    the initial installation and the second following a reboot to complete
    the installation.
  15. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    "sayNO2piracy" <sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:b628315tqviolp7445omv7ssumfrr1tpp3@4ax.com...
    > On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, "OldDog" wrote:
    >
    > if its to protect your master you do your best!
    > if its to protect pc gamers you don't even try enough!
    >

    My master is the one above who teaches me to love thy neighbor. And I want
    you to know that I love you. ;)

    > i know you can do much much better sir!

    I'm capable of a lot of things. But this is about as good as I get. And
    I can play dead, chase cats, howl at the moon...

    > so shame on you for only trying when its to clean the dirt
    > your master makes!
    >

    It it's dirty, and it needs cleaning, then I don't mind cleaning it.
  16. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:17:47 +0000, "Alfie [UK]" <me@privacy.net>
    wrote:


    >Great, and I know Nero is still pre-installed by some PC suppliers in
    >the UK on systems with CDRWs. There'll be a whole host of unhappy
    >customers not knowing why there game won't work :(

    I never said the game won't run. I said that when he tried to burn an
    ISO to cdr after installing a game protected by Starforce Nero crashed
    to the desktop. It didn't do that before installing Starforce.
  17. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:07:56 +0000, sayNO2piracy
    <sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote:

    >i said no to starforce!

    Why?

    >i think its a very wrong copy protection!

    It would be a first for you, to think that a pc game could possibly
    have anything wrong with it, as long as it came in a pretty box.

    >i always check to see if a pc game has starforce, if it has i say no to
    >it, but please never forget if a publisher decides to use starforce its
    >cause pirates made him so

    Pirates don't force publishers to do anything. Starforce is an
    overpriced pile of junk to be sure, but nothing is making publishers
    use it rather than using safedisc or securom.

    >its fighting against piracy that is the true fight against starforce!
    >fight piracy and that will make starforce go away!

    No it won't. Starforce games are pirated within days of release,
    just like everything else.

    >have good honest supporting pc gaming free of starforce!

    How, by asking for first impressions so you can avoid buying a game
    you might not like? Didn't you tell us that wasn't the way to
    properly reward the retail channel?

    --
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
    of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
  18. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:08:04 +0000, sayNO2piracy
    <sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote:

    >. always use a cd-rom drive reader to play pc games
    >. don't hesitate in buying a new cd-rom drive cause its so cheap and
    >so easy to install cause the newer the drive the best it can handle
    >all available cd copy protections

    I don't remember you including a new cd-rom drive in your list of
    acceptable gaming costs

    >don't forget cd copy protection is needed cause there are lots of scum
    >thief criminals who robe pc games and damage us all, so these kinds of
    >cd copy protection try the best to fight against criminals like those
    >we should only blame scum pirates for cd copy protection not publishers

    Yet copy protection doesn't stop the pirates, adds to the cost of
    games and only prevents paying consumers from playing the game they
    actually paid for.

    --
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
    of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
  19. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:50:07 GMT, "OldDog" <OldDog@city.pound> wrote:

    >
    >"sayNO2piracy" <sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    >news:b628315tqviolp7445omv7ssumfrr1tpp3@4ax.com...
    >> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, "OldDog" wrote:
    >>
    >> if its to protect your master you do your best!
    >> if its to protect pc gamers you don't even try enough!
    >>
    >
    >My master is the one above who teaches me to love thy neighbor. And I want
    >you to know that I love you. ;)

    But even Jesus felt he had to lay down the smack on the
    moneychangers in the temple. :)

    --
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
    of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
  20. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:17:47 +0000, "Alfie [UK]" <me@privacy.net>
    wrote:

    >On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:48:27 -0800, Connected <connected@somewhere.here>
    >wrote:
    >>Yea, well, here's something that someone tested with Starforce the
    >>other day. Using Nero you can still burn data, music disks etc. but
    >>when you try to burn an ISO it CTD's.
    >
    >Great, and I know Nero is still pre-installed by some PC suppliers in
    >the UK on systems with CDRWs.

    Nero software comes bundled with many Lite-On drives. I can either
    accept having a publisher tell me that I can't use manufacturer
    recommended software or I can just tell the publisher to go to hell.

    It wasn't a hard choice.

    --
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
    of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
  21. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:53:36 GMT, Johnny Bravo
    <baawa_knight@yahoo.com> wrote:


    > Nero software comes bundled with many Lite-On drives. I can either
    >accept having a publisher tell me that I can't use manufacturer
    >recommended software or I can just tell the publisher to go to hell.
    >
    > It wasn't a hard choice.

    Well, this was one persons experience. We should confirm that it is a
    universal problem first. And remember, it is only with burning ISO
    images to cdr. It may have been a problem specific to his version of
    Nero too but he is pretty certain that Starforce is the culprit that
    caused it.
  22. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    Thusly himrlipid Spake Unto All:

    >So, if you want the tool on hand, it had better be on a CD or a
    >diskette because it won't be on your system once StarForce is in
    >place.

    It's evil trojan crud, right up there with NetBus and PornDialers. Any
    game I buy with the filth goes straight back to the store, and I
    advice everyone to do the same.
  23. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    Thusly "Alfie [UK]" <me@privacy.net> Spake Unto All:

    >On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:48:27 -0800, Connected <connected@somewhere.here>
    >wrote:
    >>Yea, well, here's something that someone tested with Starforce the
    >>other day. Using Nero you can still burn data, music disks etc. but
    >>when you try to burn an ISO it CTD's.
    >
    >Great, and I know Nero is still pre-installed by some PC suppliers in
    >the UK on systems with CDRWs. There'll be a whole host of unhappy
    >customers not knowing why there game won't work :(

    Return the game. Tell them it wouldn't run.
  24. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    sayNO2piracy wrote:
    > On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, himrlipid wrote:
    >
    > > A modest proposal....
    >
    > sorry but your modest proposal is instead a bad proposal...
    >
    > > StarForce should be identified on the game package, in the game
    > > manual, on the game CD or DVD and in the EULA.
    >
    > this is not about proper labeling!
    > you can't fix starforce!
    > its like trying to fix manson!
    > you can fix it!

    If you read the rest of the post, he is proposing that Starforce be
    fixed, so that it does not secretly change anything on your PC.
  25. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Mean_Chlorine wrote:

    wrong!
    i'm in favour or cd copy protection
    cd copy protection is bad, but its a "necessary" bad
    and never blame publishers for it but instead low scum thief pirates

    this is why cd copy protection is needed and does not go against us:
    first:
    you don't need to make a backup copy of a physical packaged in a box
    cd-rom or dvd-rom pc game, cause its so reliable and secure only one
    in a trillion will you ever have any problems
    second:
    pc games is full of scum thief pirates and although copy protection
    has been broke it must be there cause its like door locks, they can
    be broke but its the best thing to try and prevent it
    third:
    cd copy protection must be a balance between the publisher and the
    pc gamer, and safedisk and securom and other "watermarks" technics
    are acceptable, but software driver starforce based protection are
    totally unacceptable and damage us pc gamers so we must fight it

    bottom line, pc gamers should be totally understanding when it comes
    to publishers copy protecting their cd/dvd disks but must have no
    tolerant at all if they try and force us wrong and damaging starforce

    yes to cd copy protections "watermark" based technics
    NO TO CD COPY PROTECTION BASED ON SOFTWARE DRIVERS LIKE STARFORCE!
  26. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, himrlipid wrote:

    > A modest proposal....

    sorry but your modest proposal is instead a bad proposal...

    > StarForce should be identified on the game package, in the game
    > manual, on the game CD or DVD and in the EULA.

    this is not about proper labeling!
    you can't fix starforce!
    its like trying to fix manson!
    you can fix it!
    you must end it!
    starforce never in pc games!
    defending pc games in defending NO STARFORCE AT ALL!
    if you want to make pc games better fight things like starforce!
    but also please fight piracy! don't even lend your own pc games,
    don't give to other your own pc games, don't ever play a pc game
    you don't own!
    buy pc games!
    support pc games!
    defend pc games!
    fight piracy!
    fight starforce!
    fight steam!
    defend your consumer rights!
  27. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:21:48 +0000, sayNO2piracy
    <sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote:

    >On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, himrlipid wrote:
    >
    >> A modest proposal....
    >
    >sorry but your modest proposal is instead a bad proposal...
    >
    Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

    Would I prefer that there be no copy control? Sure.

    Is that where we are now? No.

    Would it improve matters if folks could know BEFORE they purchase a
    game what sort of protection is on it? I think so.

    Would it improve matters if folks had a choice about whether they
    wanted to comply with a particular copy control scheme? I think so.

    Would more information be better than no information? Would more
    information be better than rumor? I think so.

    If publishers continue to insist that piracy is killing them and that
    copy control is the only answer, a modest step would be for them to
    help legitimate customers comply with whatever the copy control
    requires.
  28. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    <himrlipid> wrote in message
    news:7cq831hs85tsioau322d7cegro465539r2@4ax.com...

    > A modest proposal....
    >
    > StarForce should be identified on the game package, in the game
    > manual, on the game CD or DVD and in the EULA.
    >
    > The removal tool should be installed by the game with a desktop icon.
    >
    > StarForce, if it finds something it doesn't like, should put up this
    > splashscreen BEFORE a game starts:
    >
    > "Before your copy of (name of game) can run, you must disable (name of
    > app) or uninstall (name of app) or remove (name of piece of hardware).
    > Once you have done this, please reboot your system and restart your
    > copy of (name of game)."
    >
    > Of course, if StarForce finds nothing objectionable, the game simply
    > starts.
    >
    > Would that really be that difficult?
    >
    > While I find the idea of copy control annoying, I understand why
    > companies think it's necessary.

    You think it's OK that a *game* is searching your hard drive for software
    and hardware that it finds objectionable and refuses to run unless you
    remove it?
  29. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:45:04 -0600, "Kroagnon" <kroagnon@kroagnon.com>
    wrote:

    >
    ><himrlipid> wrote in message
    >news:7cq831hs85tsioau322d7cegro465539r2@4ax.com...
    >
    >> A modest proposal....
    >>
    >> StarForce should be identified on the game package, in the game
    >> manual, on the game CD or DVD and in the EULA.
    >>
    >> The removal tool should be installed by the game with a desktop icon.
    >>
    >> StarForce, if it finds something it doesn't like, should put up this
    >> splashscreen BEFORE a game starts:
    >>
    >> "Before your copy of (name of game) can run, you must disable (name of
    >> app) or uninstall (name of app) or remove (name of piece of hardware).
    >> Once you have done this, please reboot your system and restart your
    >> copy of (name of game)."
    >>
    >> Of course, if StarForce finds nothing objectionable, the game simply
    >> starts.
    >>
    >> Would that really be that difficult?
    >>
    >> While I find the idea of copy control annoying, I understand why
    >> companies think it's necessary.
    >
    >You think it's OK that a *game* is searching your hard drive for software
    >and hardware that it finds objectionable and refuses to run unless you
    >remove it?
    >
    As it stands now, the drivers do all this without any sort of warning
    and leave the system nearly, but not quite, unusable once they kick
    in.

    I would say being told in advance what the copy control requires is a
    better choice than what is currently on offer.

    Do I think it's OK? No. But given the option of no information and a
    nasty surprise or full disclosure and a choice of either loading or
    dumping a game, I would prefer full disclosure.
  30. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:02:10 -0600, himrlipid wrote:

    >Do I think it's OK? No. But given the option of no information and a
    >nasty surprise or full disclosure and a choice of either loading or
    >dumping a game, I would prefer full disclosure.

    Indeed. If the developers of Starforce truly don't think that there's
    anything wrong with their software, they surely shouldn't have
    anything against making potential game buyers aware of its presence in
    whatever game they're about to buy.

    I'm also wondering if the developers of Nero or Alcohol 120% or other
    programs that Starforce apparently objects to have thought about
    contacting their attorneys. If Starforce intentionally and
    arbitrarily refuses to allow a game to run with those programs
    installed, it borders on restraint of trade, IMO.


    Crash7
    remove x's from address to email
  31. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:21:30 +0000, sayNO2piracy
    <sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote:

    >On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Mean_Chlorine wrote:
    >
    >wrong!
    >i'm in favour or cd copy protection

    That's not what you said about Starforce.

    >cd copy protection is bad, but its a "necessary" bad

    But that is what you said about Starforce.

    >bottom line, pc gamers should be totally understanding when it comes
    >to publishers copy protecting their cd/dvd disks but must have no
    >tolerant at all if they try and force us wrong and damaging starforce

    Didn't you just get through telling me that cd copy protection can't
    blow up my pc?

    >yes to cd copy protections "watermark" based technics
    >NO TO CD COPY PROTECTION BASED ON SOFTWARE DRIVERS LIKE STARFORCE!

    Securom 5 installs a driver, jfdcd.sys to your temp directory.

    --
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
    of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
  32. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:21:48 +0000, sayNO2piracy
    <sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote:

    >On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, himrlipid wrote:
    >
    >> A modest proposal....
    >
    >sorry but your modest proposal is instead a bad proposal...
    >
    >> StarForce should be identified on the game package, in the game
    >> manual, on the game CD or DVD and in the EULA.
    >
    >this is not about proper labeling!
    >you can't fix starforce!
    >its like trying to fix manson!
    >you can fix it!

    You're absolutely right, we CAN fix it. Glad you changed your mind
    after all.

    --
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
    of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
  33. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:45:04 -0600, "Kroagnon" <kroagnon@kroagnon.com>
    wrote:

    >> While I find the idea of copy control annoying, I understand why
    >> companies think it's necessary.
    >
    >You think it's OK that a *game* is searching your hard drive for software
    >and hardware that it finds objectionable and refuses to run unless you
    >remove it?

    You don't even need Starforce for that, Sacred was programmed by the
    developers to do just that by itself independant of the copy
    protection. It wouldn't run if it found one of any number of CD
    burning tools on a system.

    Of course I think it's ok, assuming I'm warned in advance what
    programs it's looking for. It's their game, they can protect it any
    way they want, just as I'm free to find another game to buy with my
    money. What was wrong with what Ascaron did was that they didn't tell
    us what was on that list, or that there even was a list. As a result,
    I'll never give them another dime.

    --
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
    of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
  34. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:42:25 GMT, Johnny Bravo
    <baawa_knight@yahoo.com> wrote:

    >On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:45:04 -0600, "Kroagnon" <kroagnon@kroagnon.com>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>> While I find the idea of copy control annoying, I understand why
    >>> companies think it's necessary.
    >>
    >>You think it's OK that a *game* is searching your hard drive for software
    >>and hardware that it finds objectionable and refuses to run unless you
    >>remove it?
    >
    > You don't even need Starforce for that, Sacred was programmed by the
    >developers to do just that by itself independant of the copy
    >protection. It wouldn't run if it found one of any number of CD
    >burning tools on a system.
    >
    > Of course I think it's ok, assuming I'm warned in advance what
    >programs it's looking for. It's their game, they can protect it any
    >way they want, just as I'm free to find another game to buy with my
    >money. What was wrong with what Ascaron did was that they didn't tell
    >us what was on that list, or that there even was a list. As a result,
    >I'll never give them another dime.

    Hear, hear!

    All I am asking for is the information I need to make an informed
    decision.

    If I decide to comply with a game's copy control, I do so knowing how
    to avoid having it falsely accuse me of piracy.

    If I decide I don't want a game because of its copy control, I know
    about it before my wallet is out of my pocket.

    I predict there will be legal tests to determine how much longer game
    companies can offer products without fully disclosing what the copy
    control on those products requires.
  35. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:57:25 +0100, Mean_Chlorine
    <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:

    >Thusly "Alfie [UK]" <me@privacy.net> Spake Unto All:
    >
    >>On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:48:27 -0800, Connected <connected@somewhere.here>
    >>wrote:
    >>>Yea, well, here's something that someone tested with Starforce the
    >>>other day. Using Nero you can still burn data, music disks etc. but
    >>>when you try to burn an ISO it CTD's.
    >>
    >>Great, and I know Nero is still pre-installed by some PC suppliers in
    >>the UK on systems with CDRWs. There'll be a whole host of unhappy
    >>customers not knowing why there game won't work :(
    >
    >Return the game. Tell them it wouldn't run.

    Most places won't take back opened software, all they will do is
    exchange it for another copy of the exact same game; operating under
    the assmumption that a game pirate would waste the time trying to scam
    a store rather than just download it.

    --
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
    of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
  36. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 21:38:16 -0800, Connected
    <connected@somewhere.here> wrote:

    >On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:53:36 GMT, Johnny Bravo
    ><baawa_knight@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    >> Nero software comes bundled with many Lite-On drives. I can either
    >>accept having a publisher tell me that I can't use manufacturer
    >>recommended software or I can just tell the publisher to go to hell.
    >>
    >> It wasn't a hard choice.
    >
    >Well, this was one persons experience. We should confirm that it is a
    >universal problem first. And remember, it is only with burning ISO
    >images to cdr. It may have been a problem specific to his version of
    >Nero too but he is pretty certain that Starforce is the culprit that
    >caused it.

    Given the large number of posts online I've seen about people having
    problems with Starforce and those having to format the hard drive and
    reinstall windows to get rid of it, I'll pass on even taking the
    chance of allowing a Starforce driver to come in contact with my OS.

    Sacred wouldn't even install because I had Nero installed, it told
    me to uninstall it before I could play. I'm still pissed that Ascaron
    didn't warn people about that little "feature" and their attempt to
    justify it on their forums by accusing everyone of having such
    software of being a pirate.

    --
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
    of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
  37. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    Birkemose wrote:
    > "Russell Wallace" wrote...
    >
    >>"Always look on the bright side of life."
    >
    > Hahaha.... yeah.... I bet that includes thinking StarForce is trying to
    > sabotage your PC ;)

    It's a quote from Monty Python.

    "CD copy protection? You lucky bastards!!..." :)

    --
    "Always look on the bright side of life."
    To reply by email, replace no.spam with my last name.
  38. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:47:40 GMT, "OldDog" <OldDog@city.pound> wrote:

    >So what did you think of HoI 2?

    I like it alot, but I've been a fan of the whole series of games
    based on the Europa Universalis engine, even though WW2 is probably
    pushing the envelope a bit it's still fun.

    >I played the first game and was that a
    >tough game to get a grip on. So many options. So many paths, directions,
    >units, convoys, rules, and lions and tigers and bears.

    Having played Europa Universalis and Europa Universalis 2, HoI was
    pretty easy to pick up, Victoria and HoI 2 were a cinch as well. I
    can see how those new to the series would face a pretty steep learning
    curve, EU2 was like that for me (which I had played before kicking EU1
    for a couple of afternoons just to see what had changed).

    >I've heard that they've eased the management in HoI2.

    They did cut it back a bit, especially in research, it's a lot
    easier to see where you are and where you are headed. Complexity
    isn't always a good thing.

    >BTW The more that I think about it, I'm thinking of trying to make it thru
    >the year without going to my local software retail store.

    Check out Gary Grisby's World at War, which will be available online
    from the Matrix Games site (probably with their usual options to
    direct download it or have a copy in a printed DVD box shipped to you,
    with the option to download and play it while you wait!).

    http://www.worldatwaronline.com/main.asp

    >Save a tree. Peace

    Save one or plant one, both are good! Peace.

    --
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
    of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
  39. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:43:56 GMT, Johnny Bravo <baawa_knight@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    >On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:57:25 +0100, Mean_Chlorine
    ><mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    >>Thusly "Alfie [UK]" <me@privacy.net> Spake Unto All:
    >>
    >>>
    >>>Great, and I know Nero is still pre-installed by some PC suppliers in
    >>>the UK on systems with CDRWs. There'll be a whole host of unhappy
    >>>customers not knowing why there game won't work :(
    >>
    >>Return the game. Tell them it wouldn't run.
    >
    > Most places won't take back opened software, all they will do is
    >exchange it for another copy of the exact same game; operating under
    >the assmumption that a game pirate would waste the time trying to scam
    >a store rather than just download it.

    EB Games (at least my nearest branch) allows for a game trade-in. If the
    disk is defective, it's normally a title-for-title change. In cases where
    the title is not available for immediate resale, they allow you to trade in
    for another game.

    They used to allow trade-ins because the game was substandard, but they
    stopped doing that because some people played and finished the game in 24
    hours and returned it next-day.
  40. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    Mean_Chlorine wrote:
    > It's evil trojan crud, right up there with NetBus and PornDialers.
    Any
    > game I buy with the filth goes straight back to the store, and I
    > advice everyone to do the same.

    I'm not sure I'd go quite that far, but I absolutely refuse to buy any
    game that tries to install fake drivers on my PC. Starforce = sale
    lost, as far as I'm concerned.

    Mark
  41. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, "OldDog" wrote:

    YOU LIAR FANATICAL ENVIRONMENTALIST RIDDICK DOESN'T SUPPORT WIN9X!!!!

    --
    post made in a steam-free computer
    i said "NO" to valve and steam

    against steam campaign
    http://nosteam.afterdarknet.at/

    steamwatch - independent observatory about steam
    http://www.steamwatch.org/

    please sign petition "Say NO! to Steam!" available at:
    http://www.petitiononline.com/nosteam/petition.html
  42. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Johnny Bravo wrote:

    instead of doing the same old dirty developers propaganda for
    greedy valve why not giving us more about these copy protections
    i didn't now securom also used drivers...
    what else can you say about securom 5?
    use this group to inform your fellow pc gamers about the important
    issues and not the usual disgusting steam propaganda!
    this also proves the damage steam is doing, steam is creating some
    massive divides in the pc gamers family, so we start seeing gamers
    against gamers and greedy valve is enjoying very much seeing it

    --
    post made in a steam-free computer
    i said "NO" to valve and steam

    against steam campaign
    http://nosteam.afterdarknet.at/

    steamwatch - independent observatory about steam
    http://www.steamwatch.org/

    please sign petition "Say NO! to Steam!" available at:
    http://www.petitiononline.com/nosteam/petition.html
  43. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, himrlipid wrote:

    i think starforce crossed the line, so what i've been defending
    is instead of sending the publisher the message about we wanting
    better labeling and information what we really should do is for
    the game to not have any starforce at all, cause i want to buy
    the game, i want to install the game and i want to play the game
    but i don't want to have to deal with starforce!

    cd copy protection yes, unfortunately its a necessity cause there
    are many scum thieves stealing from developers and publishers, but
    they have lots to choose from, there are lots of cd copy protection
    in the market, so we are only asking them to use others than wrong
    starforce

    please use others other than starforce is what we ask... and i don't
    think its asking too much

    --
    post made in a steam-free computer
    i said "NO" to valve and steam

    against steam campaign
    http://nosteam.afterdarknet.at/

    steamwatch - independent observatory about steam
    http://www.steamwatch.org/

    please sign petition "Say NO! to Steam!" available at:
    http://www.petitiononline.com/nosteam/petition.html
  44. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    "Johnny Bravo" <baawa_knight@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:skmb319j5iuegunvtcbvh2esht3liarbs2@4ax.com...
    > >> While I find the idea of copy control annoying, I understand why
    > >> companies think it's necessary.
    > >You think it's OK that a *game* is searching your hard drive for software
    > >and hardware that it finds objectionable and refuses to run unless you
    > >remove it?
    >
    > You don't even need Starforce for that, Sacred was programmed by the
    > developers to do just that by itself independant of the copy
    > protection. It wouldn't run if it found one of any number of CD
    > burning tools on a system.
    >
    > Of course I think it's ok, assuming I'm warned in advance what
    > programs it's looking for. It's their game, they can protect it any
    > way they want, just as I'm free to find another game to buy with my
    > money. What was wrong with what Ascaron did was that they didn't tell
    > us what was on that list, or that there even was a list. As a result,
    > I'll never give them another dime.

    Well they need to offer a 100% money back guarantee if this happens. I'll be
    damned if I'm going to uninstall any CD burning software to run any game. In
    any case it should be completely illegal for one piece of legit software to
    sabotage another piece of software, period. Why isn't it already?
  45. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:17:48 +0000, sayNO2steam
    <sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote:

    >On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, "OldDog" wrote:
    >
    >YOU LIAR FANATICAL ENVIRONMENTALIST RIDDICK DOESN'T SUPPORT WIN9X!!!!

    He never claimed it did, now go take your meds.

    --
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
    of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
  46. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:17:53 +0000, sayNO2steam
    <sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote:

    >On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Johnny Bravo wrote:
    >
    >instead of doing the same old dirty developers propaganda for
    >greedy valve why not giving us more about these copy protections
    >i didn't now securom also used drivers...
    >what else can you say about securom 5?

    SAY NO TO CD COPY PROTECTION BASED ON SOFTWARE DRIVERS

    Oh, I'm sorry, you said that.

    What else would you like me to say about securom 5?

    >use this group to inform your fellow pc gamers about the important
    >issues and not the usual disgusting steam propaganda!

    The only one bringing up steam in nearly every single post he makes
    is you. I was talking about driver based copy protection, it had
    nothing to do with steam, I didn't mention steam or valve. Pull your
    head out of your ass and pay attention.

    >this also proves the damage steam is doing, steam is creating some
    >massive divides in the pc gamers family, so we start seeing gamers
    >against gamers and greedy valve is enjoying very much seeing it

    The divide is you against everyone else. Unlike you we don't sit
    around admiring the pretty boxes for our budgetware titles, instead we
    play the demos, read the reviews and support the quality games,
    ignoring the rest.

    --
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
    of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
  47. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    "sayNO2steam" <sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:l53d31p32hqr9ue6665l4372rcvjlih8rp@4ax.com...
    > On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, "OldDog" wrote:
    >
    > YOU LIAR FANATICAL ENVIRONMENTALIST RIDDICK DOESN'T SUPPORT WIN9X!!!!
    >

    Thanks for the info. I'll have to scratch it from my list.
  48. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    "Kroagnon" <kroagnon@kroagnon.com> wrote in message
    news:113e1crj4a4r786@news.supernews.com...
    >
    > "Johnny Bravo" <baawa_knight@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:skmb319j5iuegunvtcbvh2esht3liarbs2@4ax.com...
    > > >> While I find the idea of copy control annoying, I understand why
    > > >> companies think it's necessary.
    > > >You think it's OK that a *game* is searching your hard drive for
    software
    > > >and hardware that it finds objectionable and refuses to run unless you
    > > >remove it?
    > >
    > > You don't even need Starforce for that, Sacred was programmed by the
    > > developers to do just that by itself independant of the copy
    > > protection. It wouldn't run if it found one of any number of CD
    > > burning tools on a system.
    > >
    > > Of course I think it's ok, assuming I'm warned in advance what
    > > programs it's looking for. It's their game, they can protect it any
    > > way they want, just as I'm free to find another game to buy with my
    > > money. What was wrong with what Ascaron did was that they didn't tell
    > > us what was on that list, or that there even was a list. As a result,
    > > I'll never give them another dime.
    >
    > Well they need to offer a 100% money back guarantee if this happens. I'll
    be
    > damned if I'm going to uninstall any CD burning software to run any game.
    In
    > any case it should be completely illegal for one piece of legit software
    to
    > sabotage another piece of software, period. Why isn't it already?
    >
    >

    A few months back, MaximumPC had a small article on a software install issue
    similar to topic above. I don't recall the two companies involved in the
    dispute, but the courts are handling a lawsuit over the fact that Software X
    will uninstall Software Y. The company that makes Software X defends this
    becaue they claim that it's clearly stated in the EULA that this will happen
    if the user clicks on Accept.

    I'm not sure about most users, but I rarely read the EULAs.
  49. Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

    >> YOU LIAR FANATICAL ENVIRONMENTALIST RIDDICK DOESN'T SUPPORT WIN9X!!!!

    Sorry to but in, but... is sayNO2difool in the above really accusing
    OldDog of being a liar fanatical environmentalist Riddick, who doesn't
    support Win9x?
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