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Copy protection information?

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Anonymous
March 13, 2005 6:07:50 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

Is there an easy way to find out what copy protection a particular title
uses?

In particular, I've heard Starforce or somesuch scheme sabotages your
machine, so obviously I don't want to go near any titles that use it -
not even the demos thereof, because I've heard the demos in some cases
contain the copy protection code. Is there anything like a web page with
a list of what games use what schemes?

Thanks,

--
"Always look on the bright side of life."
To reply by email, replace no.spam with my last name.
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 6:13:20 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"Russell Wallace" <russell.no.spam@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:u8OYd.49421$Z14.37881@news.indigo.ie...
> Is there an easy way to find out what copy protection a particular title
> uses?
>
> In particular, I've heard Starforce or somesuch scheme sabotages your
> machine, so obviously I don't want to go near any titles that use it - not
> even the demos thereof, because I've heard the demos in some cases contain
> the copy protection code. Is there anything like a web page with a list of
> what games use what schemes?
>
> Thanks,
>
http://www.softpedia.com/get/CD-DVD-Tools/CD-DVD-Images...

http://www.makeabackup.com/database.html

Google is your friend...
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 7:16:07 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

Kill Bill wrote:
> http://www.softpedia.com/get/CD-DVD-Tools/CD-DVD-Images...
>
> http://www.makeabackup.com/database.html
>
> Google is your friend...

I did Google, just didn't use the right search keys :)  That's just what
I was looking for, thanks!

Do I understand correctly that Safedisc and Securom are okay (they just
try to prevent the game running without the original disk in the drive,
so worst case is that one ends up returning the game for a refund if
they don't work), Starforce being the only one that risks screwing up
your machine?

--
"Always look on the bright side of life."
To reply by email, replace no.spam with my last name.
Related resources
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 8:28:01 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"Russell Wallace" <russell.no.spam@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:w8PYd.49423$Z14.37610@news.indigo.ie...
> Kill Bill wrote:
> >
http://www.softpedia.com/get/CD-DVD-Tools/CD-DVD-Images...
> >
> > http://www.makeabackup.com/database.html
> >
> > Google is your friend...
>
> I did Google, just didn't use the right search keys :)  That's just what
> I was looking for, thanks!
>
> Do I understand correctly that Safedisc and Securom are okay (they just
> try to prevent the game running without the original disk in the drive,
> so worst case is that one ends up returning the game for a refund if
> they don't work), Starforce being the only one that risks screwing up
> your machine?
>

http://www.firingsquad.com/features/starforce_interview...

"In recent months there's been an increasing awareness and alarm over
StarForce copy protection. It's actually a driver that installs itself with
the games that come shipped with it, and originally it didn't uninstall when
the game was uninstalled. There are many panicked reports about "StarForce
disabled/fried my USB flash scanner/ATA drive/CD drive". Having lived
through several internet panics like this - from the V-chip through CD keys
to Senator Joe Lieberman's bills on game sales to minors - and generally
having participated on the wrong side of them - I was skeptical. I've
learned that if there's one thing that the internet is good at, it's
spreading rumors and unnecessary hyperbolic panic. Like I said, I was part
of that myself in earlier times."
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 1:07:56 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Russell Wallace wrote:

> Is there an easy way to find out what copy protection a particular title
> uses?

yes there is and your concerns are very important so you can defend your
own consumer rights as a pc gamer

check the link you already have, but please pay attention that there is
no need to backup a pc game if you take good care of your pc games, and
don't make copies to give to others cause that damages very much all of
us who like and support pc games, also don't forget leading is also very
bad for pc games

when checking the link you should pay attention to the following:
.. no need to backup pc games if you take good care of them
.. use the information to check wrong copy protections like starforce
.. don't ever make copies of your pc games and give them to others,
cause that's piracy and its the biggest threat and problem we have
.. don't even lend your own pc games and only use them yourself, if
a friend wants to play a game you own, let him play in your own pc
and if we wants to play it in his own pc help him find the best deal
available so he can get his own copy for him to use

> In particular, I've heard Starforce or somesuch scheme sabotages your
> machine, so obviously I don't want to go near any titles that use it -

i said no to starforce!
i think its a very wrong copy protection!
i always check to see if a pc game has starforce, if it has i say no to
it, but please never forget if a publisher decides to use starforce its
cause pirates made him so
its fighting against piracy that is the true fight against starforce!
fight piracy and that will make starforce go away!

have good honest supporting pc gaming free of starforce!
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 1:08:04 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Russell Wallace wrote:

> Do I understand correctly that Safedisc and Securom are okay (they just
> try to prevent the game running without the original disk in the drive,

exactly
safedisc and securom are totally safe
to have a completely free experience with cd copy protection i suggest
you do the following
.. take very good care of your pc games
.. always use a cd-rom drive reader to play pc games
.. don't hesitate in buying a new cd-rom drive cause its so cheap and
so easy to install cause the newer the drive the best it can handle
all available cd copy protections

don't forget cd copy protection is needed cause there are lots of scum
thief criminals who robe pc games and damage us all, so these kinds of
cd copy protection try the best to fight against criminals like those
we should only blame scum pirates for cd copy protection not publishers

> so worst case is that one ends up returning the game for a refund if
> they don't work), Starforce being the only one that risks screwing up
> your machine?

believe me if you use a new cd-rom reader only drive and you take good
care of your pc games, you will never need to return any game featuring
safedisk or secumrom! you will always be able to totally enjoy the game
you bought

as for starforce obviously some of the scenarios we listen are a little
bit exaggerated but the important thing is, starforce is very wrong and
publishers need to know we will not buy any game with is

fortunately the majority of publishers don't use starforce, thank god!
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 1:08:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, "OldDog" wrote:

if its to protect your master you do your best!
if its to protect pc gamers you don't even try enough!

i know you can do much much better sir!
so shame on you for only trying when its to clean the dirt
your master makes!
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 1:27:50 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 03:07:50 +0000, Russell Wallace
<russell.no.spam@gmail.com> wrote:

>Is there an easy way to find out what copy protection a particular title
>uses?
>
>In particular, I've heard Starforce or somesuch scheme sabotages your
>machine, so obviously I don't want to go near any titles that use it -
>not even the demos thereof, because I've heard the demos in some cases
>contain the copy protection code. Is there anything like a web page with
>a list of what games use what schemes?
>
>Thanks,

A modest proposal....

StarForce should be identified on the game package, in the game
manual, on the game CD or DVD and in the EULA.

The removal tool should be installed by the game with a desktop icon.

StarForce, if it finds something it doesn't like, should put up this
splashscreen BEFORE a game starts:

"Before your copy of (name of game) can run, you must disable (name of
app) or uninstall (name of app) or remove (name of piece of hardware).
Once you have done this, please reboot your system and restart your
copy of (name of game)."

Of course, if StarForce finds nothing objectionable, the game simply
starts.

Would that really be that difficult?

While I find the idea of copy control annoying, I understand why
companies think it's necessary.

What I don't understand is why companies think it's OK to fail (or
refuse) to disclose information that legitimate buyers need to
actually enjoy their games.

I can't comply if I'm not told the rules.
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 1:48:27 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 05:28:01 GMT, "OldDog" <OldDog@city.pound> wrote:


>"In recent months there's been an increasing awareness and alarm over
>StarForce copy protection. It's actually a driver that installs itself with
>the games that come shipped with it, and originally it didn't uninstall when
>the game was uninstalled. There are many panicked reports about "StarForce
>disabled/fried my USB flash scanner/ATA drive/CD drive". Having lived
>through several internet panics like this - from the V-chip through CD keys
>to Senator Joe Lieberman's bills on game sales to minors - and generally
>having participated on the wrong side of them - I was skeptical. I've
>learned that if there's one thing that the internet is good at, it's
>spreading rumors and unnecessary hyperbolic panic. Like I said, I was part
>of that myself in earlier times."
>

Yea, well, here's something that someone tested with Starforce the
other day. Using Nero you can still burn data, music disks etc. but
when you try to burn an ISO it CTD's.
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 5:15:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

Thusly "OldDog" <OldDog@city.pound> Spake Unto All:

>http://www.firingsquad.com/features/starforce_interview...

On the other hand, that's an uncritical interview with the PR
representative of the company making the crud. The things she says is
what she'd say even if it ate small children. ESPECIALLY if it ate
small children, in fact, to avoid liability.
The interviewer even lets her get away with starforce "not realizing"
people might be upset that their driver (which doesn't accept the
presence of any software it deems helpful to pirates) was installed
without warning and *left running* after the game was uninstalled.

Personally I hate and despise CD-based copy protection. It has no
other function than to punish legitimate users who wish to (legally)
back up their CD's, because contrary to the fluff spouted by the PR
representative of starforce, it offers no better protection against
casual copiers than any other method, and zero protection against the
warez-groups.
CD-based copy protection is something saynotodifool could legitimately
obsess about.

And this is the worst of all CD-based copy protection schemes.
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 6:30:10 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"Russell Wallace" wrote...

> In particular, I've heard Starforce or somesuch scheme sabotages your
> machine, so obviously I don't want to go near any titles that use it -
<snip>

> "Always look on the bright side of life."

Hahaha.... yeah.... I bet that includes thinking StarForce is trying to
sabotage your PC ;) 
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 8:30:13 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:27:50 -0600, himrlipid wrote:
>A modest proposal....
>
<SNIP>
>
>I can't comply if I'm not told the rules.

That's far too sensible a proposal for them to adopt :) 

They'd probably claim that disclosing the copy protection method gives
the hackers a head start, but I'll bet they're really worried that it
would put some purchasers off.

--
Alfie
<http://www.delphia.co.uk/&gt;
The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard.
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 10:17:47 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:48:27 -0800, Connected <connected@somewhere.here>
wrote:
>Yea, well, here's something that someone tested with Starforce the
>other day. Using Nero you can still burn data, music disks etc. but
>when you try to burn an ISO it CTD's.

Great, and I know Nero is still pre-installed by some PC suppliers in
the UK on systems with CDRWs. There'll be a whole host of unhappy
customers not knowing why there game won't work :( 

--
Alfie
<http://www.delphia.co.uk/&gt;
Paper clips are the larval stage of coat hangers.
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 11:41:16 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"Mean_Chlorine" <mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:23e831p9sqgs7badgl0c122ojs7k0ou4ak@4ax.com...
> Thusly "OldDog" <OldDog@city.pound> Spake Unto All:
>
> >http://www.firingsquad.com/features/starforce_interview...
>
> On the other hand, that's an uncritical interview with the PR
> representative of the company making the crud. The things she says is
> what she'd say even if it ate small children. ESPECIALLY if it ate
> small children, in fact, to avoid liability.
> The interviewer even lets her get away with starforce "not realizing"
> people might be upset that their driver (which doesn't accept the
> presence of any software it deems helpful to pirates) was installed
> without warning and *left running* after the game was uninstalled.
>

I don't think the intent of the interview was to set them down and grilled
them for 2hrs. But rather to give the company a chance to tell their side
of the story.

As to "not realizing" people might... as someone that has had to deliver
software to users, I've been there. As hard as I tried to give them what I
thought was needed, I was usually met with "Why doesn't it do this or that?"
& "And how come I have to do ....?"

So they made a mistake and left a driving installed. Have they fixed that
based on user feedback? If so, next issue.


> Personally I hate and despise CD-based copy protection. It has no
> other function than to punish legitimate users who wish to (legally)
> back up their CD's, because contrary to the fluff spouted by the PR
> representative of starforce, it offers no better protection against
> casual copiers than any other method, and zero protection against the
> warez-groups.

I'm not big on it either, but I don't like having to lock my doors at night
either.

> CD-based copy protection is something saynotodifool could legitimately
> obsess about.
>
> And this is the worst of all CD-based copy protection schemes.
>

If if fact they have cleared up the driver issue, in your opinion, what's
the biggest draw back of StarForce?

Also, how would a user know if it's on a new game that he brought?
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 11:41:17 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:41:16 GMT, "OldDog" <OldDog@city.pound> wrote:

<SNIP>
>If if fact they have cleared up the driver issue, in your opinion, what's
>the biggest draw back of StarForce?

That it produces bizarre system behavior if it finds something it
doesn't like. And no one is willing to step forward and list the
things it doesn't like.

Bizarre system behavior includes tossing drives into MS-DOS
Compatibility Mode and, upon rebooting, the entire system into Safe
Mode. This does not end with uninstalling the game. The StarForce
drivers need to be removed and it seems that StarForce will remove the
removal tool if it finds it during the installation of a game.

So, if you want the tool on hand, it had better be on a CD or a
diskette because it won't be on your system once StarForce is in
place.

>
>Also, how would a user know if it's on a new game that he brought?
>

He wouldn't until he had to enter two strings of numbers: One during
the initial installation and the second following a reboot to complete
the installation.
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 11:50:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"sayNO2piracy" <sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b628315tqviolp7445omv7ssumfrr1tpp3@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, "OldDog" wrote:
>
> if its to protect your master you do your best!
> if its to protect pc gamers you don't even try enough!
>

My master is the one above who teaches me to love thy neighbor. And I want
you to know that I love you. ;) 

> i know you can do much much better sir!

I'm capable of a lot of things. But this is about as good as I get. And
I can play dead, chase cats, howl at the moon...

> so shame on you for only trying when its to clean the dirt
> your master makes!
>

It it's dirty, and it needs cleaning, then I don't mind cleaning it.
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 12:35:38 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:17:47 +0000, "Alfie [UK]" <me@privacy.net>
wrote:


>Great, and I know Nero is still pre-installed by some PC suppliers in
>the UK on systems with CDRWs. There'll be a whole host of unhappy
>customers not knowing why there game won't work :( 

I never said the game won't run. I said that when he tried to burn an
ISO to cdr after installing a game protected by Starforce Nero crashed
to the desktop. It didn't do that before installing Starforce.
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 3:36:49 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:07:56 +0000, sayNO2piracy
<sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote:

>i said no to starforce!

Why?

>i think its a very wrong copy protection!

It would be a first for you, to think that a pc game could possibly
have anything wrong with it, as long as it came in a pretty box.

>i always check to see if a pc game has starforce, if it has i say no to
>it, but please never forget if a publisher decides to use starforce its
>cause pirates made him so

Pirates don't force publishers to do anything. Starforce is an
overpriced pile of junk to be sure, but nothing is making publishers
use it rather than using safedisc or securom.

>its fighting against piracy that is the true fight against starforce!
>fight piracy and that will make starforce go away!

No it won't. Starforce games are pirated within days of release,
just like everything else.

>have good honest supporting pc gaming free of starforce!

How, by asking for first impressions so you can avoid buying a game
you might not like? Didn't you tell us that wasn't the way to
properly reward the retail channel?

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 3:42:15 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:08:04 +0000, sayNO2piracy
<sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote:

>. always use a cd-rom drive reader to play pc games
>. don't hesitate in buying a new cd-rom drive cause its so cheap and
>so easy to install cause the newer the drive the best it can handle
>all available cd copy protections

I don't remember you including a new cd-rom drive in your list of
acceptable gaming costs

>don't forget cd copy protection is needed cause there are lots of scum
>thief criminals who robe pc games and damage us all, so these kinds of
>cd copy protection try the best to fight against criminals like those
>we should only blame scum pirates for cd copy protection not publishers

Yet copy protection doesn't stop the pirates, adds to the cost of
games and only prevents paying consumers from playing the game they
actually paid for.

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 3:46:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:50:07 GMT, "OldDog" <OldDog@city.pound> wrote:

>
>"sayNO2piracy" <sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:b628315tqviolp7445omv7ssumfrr1tpp3@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, "OldDog" wrote:
>>
>> if its to protect your master you do your best!
>> if its to protect pc gamers you don't even try enough!
>>
>
>My master is the one above who teaches me to love thy neighbor. And I want
>you to know that I love you. ;) 

But even Jesus felt he had to lay down the smack on the
moneychangers in the temple. :) 

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 3:53:36 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:17:47 +0000, "Alfie [UK]" <me@privacy.net>
wrote:

>On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:48:27 -0800, Connected <connected@somewhere.here>
>wrote:
>>Yea, well, here's something that someone tested with Starforce the
>>other day. Using Nero you can still burn data, music disks etc. but
>>when you try to burn an ISO it CTD's.
>
>Great, and I know Nero is still pre-installed by some PC suppliers in
>the UK on systems with CDRWs.

Nero software comes bundled with many Lite-On drives. I can either
accept having a publisher tell me that I can't use manufacturer
recommended software or I can just tell the publisher to go to hell.

It wasn't a hard choice.

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 3:53:37 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:53:36 GMT, Johnny Bravo
<baawa_knight@yahoo.com> wrote:


> Nero software comes bundled with many Lite-On drives. I can either
>accept having a publisher tell me that I can't use manufacturer
>recommended software or I can just tell the publisher to go to hell.
>
> It wasn't a hard choice.

Well, this was one persons experience. We should confirm that it is a
universal problem first. And remember, it is only with burning ISO
images to cdr. It may have been a problem specific to his version of
Nero too but he is pretty certain that Starforce is the culprit that
caused it.
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 3:57:25 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

Thusly himrlipid Spake Unto All:

>So, if you want the tool on hand, it had better be on a CD or a
>diskette because it won't be on your system once StarForce is in
>place.

It's evil trojan crud, right up there with NetBus and PornDialers. Any
game I buy with the filth goes straight back to the store, and I
advice everyone to do the same.
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 3:57:25 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

Thusly "Alfie [UK]" <me@privacy.net> Spake Unto All:

>On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:48:27 -0800, Connected <connected@somewhere.here>
>wrote:
>>Yea, well, here's something that someone tested with Starforce the
>>other day. Using Nero you can still burn data, music disks etc. but
>>when you try to burn an ISO it CTD's.
>
>Great, and I know Nero is still pre-installed by some PC suppliers in
>the UK on systems with CDRWs. There'll be a whole host of unhappy
>customers not knowing why there game won't work :( 

Return the game. Tell them it wouldn't run.
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 6:55:09 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

sayNO2piracy wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, himrlipid wrote:
>
> > A modest proposal....
>
> sorry but your modest proposal is instead a bad proposal...
>
> > StarForce should be identified on the game package, in the game
> > manual, on the game CD or DVD and in the EULA.
>
> this is not about proper labeling!
> you can't fix starforce!
> its like trying to fix manson!
> you can fix it!

If you read the rest of the post, he is proposing that Starforce be
fixed, so that it does not secretly change anything on your PC.
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 12:21:30 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Mean_Chlorine wrote:

wrong!
i'm in favour or cd copy protection
cd copy protection is bad, but its a "necessary" bad
and never blame publishers for it but instead low scum thief pirates

this is why cd copy protection is needed and does not go against us:
first:
you don't need to make a backup copy of a physical packaged in a box
cd-rom or dvd-rom pc game, cause its so reliable and secure only one
in a trillion will you ever have any problems
second:
pc games is full of scum thief pirates and although copy protection
has been broke it must be there cause its like door locks, they can
be broke but its the best thing to try and prevent it
third:
cd copy protection must be a balance between the publisher and the
pc gamer, and safedisk and securom and other "watermarks" technics
are acceptable, but software driver starforce based protection are
totally unacceptable and damage us pc gamers so we must fight it

bottom line, pc gamers should be totally understanding when it comes
to publishers copy protecting their cd/dvd disks but must have no
tolerant at all if they try and force us wrong and damaging starforce

yes to cd copy protections "watermark" based technics
NO TO CD COPY PROTECTION BASED ON SOFTWARE DRIVERS LIKE STARFORCE!
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 12:21:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, himrlipid wrote:

> A modest proposal....

sorry but your modest proposal is instead a bad proposal...

> StarForce should be identified on the game package, in the game
> manual, on the game CD or DVD and in the EULA.

this is not about proper labeling!
you can't fix starforce!
its like trying to fix manson!
you can fix it!
you must end it!
starforce never in pc games!
defending pc games in defending NO STARFORCE AT ALL!
if you want to make pc games better fight things like starforce!
but also please fight piracy! don't even lend your own pc games,
don't give to other your own pc games, don't ever play a pc game
you don't own!
buy pc games!
support pc games!
defend pc games!
fight piracy!
fight starforce!
fight steam!
defend your consumer rights!
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 12:21:49 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:21:48 +0000, sayNO2piracy
<sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, himrlipid wrote:
>
>> A modest proposal....
>
>sorry but your modest proposal is instead a bad proposal...
>
Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Would I prefer that there be no copy control? Sure.

Is that where we are now? No.

Would it improve matters if folks could know BEFORE they purchase a
game what sort of protection is on it? I think so.

Would it improve matters if folks had a choice about whether they
wanted to comply with a particular copy control scheme? I think so.

Would more information be better than no information? Would more
information be better than rumor? I think so.

If publishers continue to insist that piracy is killing them and that
copy control is the only answer, a modest step would be for them to
help legitimate customers comply with whatever the copy control
requires.
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 12:45:04 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

<himrlipid> wrote in message
news:7cq831hs85tsioau322d7cegro465539r2@4ax.com...

> A modest proposal....
>
> StarForce should be identified on the game package, in the game
> manual, on the game CD or DVD and in the EULA.
>
> The removal tool should be installed by the game with a desktop icon.
>
> StarForce, if it finds something it doesn't like, should put up this
> splashscreen BEFORE a game starts:
>
> "Before your copy of (name of game) can run, you must disable (name of
> app) or uninstall (name of app) or remove (name of piece of hardware).
> Once you have done this, please reboot your system and restart your
> copy of (name of game)."
>
> Of course, if StarForce finds nothing objectionable, the game simply
> starts.
>
> Would that really be that difficult?
>
> While I find the idea of copy control annoying, I understand why
> companies think it's necessary.

You think it's OK that a *game* is searching your hard drive for software
and hardware that it finds objectionable and refuses to run unless you
remove it?
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 1:02:10 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:45:04 -0600, "Kroagnon" <kroagnon@kroagnon.com>
wrote:

>
><himrlipid> wrote in message
>news:7cq831hs85tsioau322d7cegro465539r2@4ax.com...
>
>> A modest proposal....
>>
>> StarForce should be identified on the game package, in the game
>> manual, on the game CD or DVD and in the EULA.
>>
>> The removal tool should be installed by the game with a desktop icon.
>>
>> StarForce, if it finds something it doesn't like, should put up this
>> splashscreen BEFORE a game starts:
>>
>> "Before your copy of (name of game) can run, you must disable (name of
>> app) or uninstall (name of app) or remove (name of piece of hardware).
>> Once you have done this, please reboot your system and restart your
>> copy of (name of game)."
>>
>> Of course, if StarForce finds nothing objectionable, the game simply
>> starts.
>>
>> Would that really be that difficult?
>>
>> While I find the idea of copy control annoying, I understand why
>> companies think it's necessary.
>
>You think it's OK that a *game* is searching your hard drive for software
>and hardware that it finds objectionable and refuses to run unless you
>remove it?
>
As it stands now, the drivers do all this without any sort of warning
and leave the system nearly, but not quite, unusable once they kick
in.

I would say being told in advance what the copy control requires is a
better choice than what is currently on offer.

Do I think it's OK? No. But given the option of no information and a
nasty surprise or full disclosure and a choice of either loading or
dumping a game, I would prefer full disclosure.
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 9:37:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 10:02:10 -0600, himrlipid wrote:

>Do I think it's OK? No. But given the option of no information and a
>nasty surprise or full disclosure and a choice of either loading or
>dumping a game, I would prefer full disclosure.

Indeed. If the developers of Starforce truly don't think that there's
anything wrong with their software, they surely shouldn't have
anything against making potential game buyers aware of its presence in
whatever game they're about to buy.

I'm also wondering if the developers of Nero or Alcohol 120% or other
programs that Starforce apparently objects to have thought about
contacting their attorneys. If Starforce intentionally and
arbitrarily refuses to allow a game to run with those programs
installed, it borders on restraint of trade, IMO.


Crash7
remove x's from address to email
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 9:37:54 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:21:30 +0000, sayNO2piracy
<sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, Mean_Chlorine wrote:
>
>wrong!
>i'm in favour or cd copy protection

That's not what you said about Starforce.

>cd copy protection is bad, but its a "necessary" bad

But that is what you said about Starforce.

>bottom line, pc gamers should be totally understanding when it comes
>to publishers copy protecting their cd/dvd disks but must have no
>tolerant at all if they try and force us wrong and damaging starforce

Didn't you just get through telling me that cd copy protection can't
blow up my pc?

>yes to cd copy protections "watermark" based technics
>NO TO CD COPY PROTECTION BASED ON SOFTWARE DRIVERS LIKE STARFORCE!

Securom 5 installs a driver, jfdcd.sys to your temp directory.

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 9:38:38 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:21:48 +0000, sayNO2piracy
<sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 13 Mar 2005, himrlipid wrote:
>
>> A modest proposal....
>
>sorry but your modest proposal is instead a bad proposal...
>
>> StarForce should be identified on the game package, in the game
>> manual, on the game CD or DVD and in the EULA.
>
>this is not about proper labeling!
>you can't fix starforce!
>its like trying to fix manson!
>you can fix it!

You're absolutely right, we CAN fix it. Glad you changed your mind
after all.

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 9:42:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:45:04 -0600, "Kroagnon" <kroagnon@kroagnon.com>
wrote:

>> While I find the idea of copy control annoying, I understand why
>> companies think it's necessary.
>
>You think it's OK that a *game* is searching your hard drive for software
>and hardware that it finds objectionable and refuses to run unless you
>remove it?

You don't even need Starforce for that, Sacred was programmed by the
developers to do just that by itself independant of the copy
protection. It wouldn't run if it found one of any number of CD
burning tools on a system.

Of course I think it's ok, assuming I'm warned in advance what
programs it's looking for. It's their game, they can protect it any
way they want, just as I'm free to find another game to buy with my
money. What was wrong with what Ascaron did was that they didn't tell
us what was on that list, or that there even was a list. As a result,
I'll never give them another dime.

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 9:42:26 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:42:25 GMT, Johnny Bravo
<baawa_knight@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:45:04 -0600, "Kroagnon" <kroagnon@kroagnon.com>
>wrote:
>
>>> While I find the idea of copy control annoying, I understand why
>>> companies think it's necessary.
>>
>>You think it's OK that a *game* is searching your hard drive for software
>>and hardware that it finds objectionable and refuses to run unless you
>>remove it?
>
> You don't even need Starforce for that, Sacred was programmed by the
>developers to do just that by itself independant of the copy
>protection. It wouldn't run if it found one of any number of CD
>burning tools on a system.
>
> Of course I think it's ok, assuming I'm warned in advance what
>programs it's looking for. It's their game, they can protect it any
>way they want, just as I'm free to find another game to buy with my
>money. What was wrong with what Ascaron did was that they didn't tell
>us what was on that list, or that there even was a list. As a result,
>I'll never give them another dime.

Hear, hear!

All I am asking for is the information I need to make an informed
decision.

If I decide to comply with a game's copy control, I do so knowing how
to avoid having it falsely accuse me of piracy.

If I decide I don't want a game because of its copy control, I know
about it before my wallet is out of my pocket.

I predict there will be legal tests to determine how much longer game
companies can offer products without fully disclosing what the copy
control on those products requires.
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 9:43:56 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:57:25 +0100, Mean_Chlorine
<mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>Thusly "Alfie [UK]" <me@privacy.net> Spake Unto All:
>
>>On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:48:27 -0800, Connected <connected@somewhere.here>
>>wrote:
>>>Yea, well, here's something that someone tested with Starforce the
>>>other day. Using Nero you can still burn data, music disks etc. but
>>>when you try to burn an ISO it CTD's.
>>
>>Great, and I know Nero is still pre-installed by some PC suppliers in
>>the UK on systems with CDRWs. There'll be a whole host of unhappy
>>customers not knowing why there game won't work :( 
>
>Return the game. Tell them it wouldn't run.

Most places won't take back opened software, all they will do is
exchange it for another copy of the exact same game; operating under
the assmumption that a game pirate would waste the time trying to scam
a store rather than just download it.

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 9:48:46 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 21:38:16 -0800, Connected
<connected@somewhere.here> wrote:

>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:53:36 GMT, Johnny Bravo
><baawa_knight@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Nero software comes bundled with many Lite-On drives. I can either
>>accept having a publisher tell me that I can't use manufacturer
>>recommended software or I can just tell the publisher to go to hell.
>>
>> It wasn't a hard choice.
>
>Well, this was one persons experience. We should confirm that it is a
>universal problem first. And remember, it is only with burning ISO
>images to cdr. It may have been a problem specific to his version of
>Nero too but he is pretty certain that Starforce is the culprit that
>caused it.

Given the large number of posts online I've seen about people having
problems with Starforce and those having to format the hard drive and
reinstall windows to get rid of it, I'll pass on even taking the
chance of allowing a Starforce driver to come in contact with my OS.

Sacred wouldn't even install because I had Nero installed, it told
me to uninstall it before I could play. I'm still pissed that Ascaron
didn't warn people about that little "feature" and their attempt to
justify it on their forums by accusing everyone of having such
software of being a pirate.

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 11:44:38 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

Birkemose wrote:
> "Russell Wallace" wrote...
>
>>"Always look on the bright side of life."
>
> Hahaha.... yeah.... I bet that includes thinking StarForce is trying to
> sabotage your PC ;) 

It's a quote from Monty Python.

"CD copy protection? You lucky bastards!!..." :) 

--
"Always look on the bright side of life."
To reply by email, replace no.spam with my last name.
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 3:44:39 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 23:47:40 GMT, "OldDog" <OldDog@city.pound> wrote:

>So what did you think of HoI 2?

I like it alot, but I've been a fan of the whole series of games
based on the Europa Universalis engine, even though WW2 is probably
pushing the envelope a bit it's still fun.

>I played the first game and was that a
>tough game to get a grip on. So many options. So many paths, directions,
>units, convoys, rules, and lions and tigers and bears.

Having played Europa Universalis and Europa Universalis 2, HoI was
pretty easy to pick up, Victoria and HoI 2 were a cinch as well. I
can see how those new to the series would face a pretty steep learning
curve, EU2 was like that for me (which I had played before kicking EU1
for a couple of afternoons just to see what had changed).

>I've heard that they've eased the management in HoI2.

They did cut it back a bit, especially in research, it's a lot
easier to see where you are and where you are headed. Complexity
isn't always a good thing.

>BTW The more that I think about it, I'm thinking of trying to make it thru
>the year without going to my local software retail store.

Check out Gary Grisby's World at War, which will be available online
from the Matrix Games site (probably with their usual options to
direct download it or have a copy in a printed DVD box shipped to you,
with the option to download and play it while you wait!).

http://www.worldatwaronline.com/main.asp

>Save a tree. Peace

Save one or plant one, both are good! Peace.

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 4:09:41 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:43:56 GMT, Johnny Bravo <baawa_knight@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:57:25 +0100, Mean_Chlorine
><mike_noren2002@NOSPAMyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Thusly "Alfie [UK]" <me@privacy.net> Spake Unto All:
>>
>>>
>>>Great, and I know Nero is still pre-installed by some PC suppliers in
>>>the UK on systems with CDRWs. There'll be a whole host of unhappy
>>>customers not knowing why there game won't work :( 
>>
>>Return the game. Tell them it wouldn't run.
>
> Most places won't take back opened software, all they will do is
>exchange it for another copy of the exact same game; operating under
>the assmumption that a game pirate would waste the time trying to scam
>a store rather than just download it.

EB Games (at least my nearest branch) allows for a game trade-in. If the
disk is defective, it's normally a title-for-title change. In cases where
the title is not available for immediate resale, they allow you to trade in
for another game.

They used to allow trade-ins because the game was substandard, but they
stopped doing that because some people played and finished the game in 24
hours and returned it next-day.
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 7:28:26 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

Mean_Chlorine wrote:
> It's evil trojan crud, right up there with NetBus and PornDialers.
Any
> game I buy with the filth goes straight back to the store, and I
> advice everyone to do the same.

I'm not sure I'd go quite that far, but I absolutely refuse to buy any
game that tries to install fake drivers on my PC. Starforce = sale
lost, as far as I'm concerned.

Mark
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 12:17:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, "OldDog" wrote:

YOU LIAR FANATICAL ENVIRONMENTALIST RIDDICK DOESN'T SUPPORT WIN9X!!!!

--
post made in a steam-free computer
i said "NO" to valve and steam

against steam campaign
http://nosteam.afterdarknet.at/

steamwatch - independent observatory about steam
http://www.steamwatch.org/

please sign petition "Say NO! to Steam!" available at:
http://www.petitiononline.com/nosteam/petition.html
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 12:17:53 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Johnny Bravo wrote:

instead of doing the same old dirty developers propaganda for
greedy valve why not giving us more about these copy protections
i didn't now securom also used drivers...
what else can you say about securom 5?
use this group to inform your fellow pc gamers about the important
issues and not the usual disgusting steam propaganda!
this also proves the damage steam is doing, steam is creating some
massive divides in the pc gamers family, so we start seeing gamers
against gamers and greedy valve is enjoying very much seeing it

--
post made in a steam-free computer
i said "NO" to valve and steam

against steam campaign
http://nosteam.afterdarknet.at/

steamwatch - independent observatory about steam
http://www.steamwatch.org/

please sign petition "Say NO! to Steam!" available at:
http://www.petitiononline.com/nosteam/petition.html
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 12:17:58 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, himrlipid wrote:

i think starforce crossed the line, so what i've been defending
is instead of sending the publisher the message about we wanting
better labeling and information what we really should do is for
the game to not have any starforce at all, cause i want to buy
the game, i want to install the game and i want to play the game
but i don't want to have to deal with starforce!

cd copy protection yes, unfortunately its a necessity cause there
are many scum thieves stealing from developers and publishers, but
they have lots to choose from, there are lots of cd copy protection
in the market, so we are only asking them to use others than wrong
starforce

please use others other than starforce is what we ask... and i don't
think its asking too much

--
post made in a steam-free computer
i said "NO" to valve and steam

against steam campaign
http://nosteam.afterdarknet.at/

steamwatch - independent observatory about steam
http://www.steamwatch.org/

please sign petition "Say NO! to Steam!" available at:
http://www.petitiononline.com/nosteam/petition.html
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 12:56:30 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"Johnny Bravo" <baawa_knight@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:skmb319j5iuegunvtcbvh2esht3liarbs2@4ax.com...
> >> While I find the idea of copy control annoying, I understand why
> >> companies think it's necessary.
> >You think it's OK that a *game* is searching your hard drive for software
> >and hardware that it finds objectionable and refuses to run unless you
> >remove it?
>
> You don't even need Starforce for that, Sacred was programmed by the
> developers to do just that by itself independant of the copy
> protection. It wouldn't run if it found one of any number of CD
> burning tools on a system.
>
> Of course I think it's ok, assuming I'm warned in advance what
> programs it's looking for. It's their game, they can protect it any
> way they want, just as I'm free to find another game to buy with my
> money. What was wrong with what Ascaron did was that they didn't tell
> us what was on that list, or that there even was a list. As a result,
> I'll never give them another dime.

Well they need to offer a 100% money back guarantee if this happens. I'll be
damned if I'm going to uninstall any CD burning software to run any game. In
any case it should be completely illegal for one piece of legit software to
sabotage another piece of software, period. Why isn't it already?
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 6:39:18 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:17:48 +0000, sayNO2steam
<sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, "OldDog" wrote:
>
>YOU LIAR FANATICAL ENVIRONMENTALIST RIDDICK DOESN'T SUPPORT WIN9X!!!!

He never claimed it did, now go take your meds.

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 6:44:22 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:17:53 +0000, sayNO2steam
<sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, Johnny Bravo wrote:
>
>instead of doing the same old dirty developers propaganda for
>greedy valve why not giving us more about these copy protections
>i didn't now securom also used drivers...
>what else can you say about securom 5?

SAY NO TO CD COPY PROTECTION BASED ON SOFTWARE DRIVERS

Oh, I'm sorry, you said that.

What else would you like me to say about securom 5?

>use this group to inform your fellow pc gamers about the important
>issues and not the usual disgusting steam propaganda!

The only one bringing up steam in nearly every single post he makes
is you. I was talking about driver based copy protection, it had
nothing to do with steam, I didn't mention steam or valve. Pull your
head out of your ass and pay attention.

>this also proves the damage steam is doing, steam is creating some
>massive divides in the pc gamers family, so we start seeing gamers
>against gamers and greedy valve is enjoying very much seeing it

The divide is you against everyone else. Unlike you we don't sit
around admiring the pretty boxes for our budgetware titles, instead we
play the demos, read the reviews and support the quality games,
ignoring the rest.

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 2:25:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"sayNO2steam" <sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:l53d31p32hqr9ue6665l4372rcvjlih8rp@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005, "OldDog" wrote:
>
> YOU LIAR FANATICAL ENVIRONMENTALIST RIDDICK DOESN'T SUPPORT WIN9X!!!!
>

Thanks for the info. I'll have to scratch it from my list.
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 2:42:03 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"Kroagnon" <kroagnon@kroagnon.com> wrote in message
news:113e1crj4a4r786@news.supernews.com...
>
> "Johnny Bravo" <baawa_knight@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:skmb319j5iuegunvtcbvh2esht3liarbs2@4ax.com...
> > >> While I find the idea of copy control annoying, I understand why
> > >> companies think it's necessary.
> > >You think it's OK that a *game* is searching your hard drive for
software
> > >and hardware that it finds objectionable and refuses to run unless you
> > >remove it?
> >
> > You don't even need Starforce for that, Sacred was programmed by the
> > developers to do just that by itself independant of the copy
> > protection. It wouldn't run if it found one of any number of CD
> > burning tools on a system.
> >
> > Of course I think it's ok, assuming I'm warned in advance what
> > programs it's looking for. It's their game, they can protect it any
> > way they want, just as I'm free to find another game to buy with my
> > money. What was wrong with what Ascaron did was that they didn't tell
> > us what was on that list, or that there even was a list. As a result,
> > I'll never give them another dime.
>
> Well they need to offer a 100% money back guarantee if this happens. I'll
be
> damned if I'm going to uninstall any CD burning software to run any game.
In
> any case it should be completely illegal for one piece of legit software
to
> sabotage another piece of software, period. Why isn't it already?
>
>

A few months back, MaximumPC had a small article on a software install issue
similar to topic above. I don't recall the two companies involved in the
dispute, but the courts are handling a lawsuit over the fact that Software X
will uninstall Software Y. The company that makes Software X defends this
becaue they claim that it's clearly stated in the EULA that this will happen
if the user clicks on Accept.

I'm not sure about most users, but I rarely read the EULAs.
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 3:43:34 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

>> YOU LIAR FANATICAL ENVIRONMENTALIST RIDDICK DOESN'T SUPPORT WIN9X!!!!

Sorry to but in, but... is sayNO2difool in the above really accusing
OldDog of being a liar fanatical environmentalist Riddick, who doesn't
support Win9x?
!