Mackie Onyx or Crest XR20 for live recording?

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> I'm considering a Mackie Onyx or a Crest XR20 for live sound AND
recording.
> If I use their respective direct outs for recording feeds while using the
> mixer for a live mix, would I be equally happy with both? Are the preamps
> close, or are the Crest's preamps of a higher grade? I'm spoiled by Great
> River and Fearn pres, so I don't want to be let down too much if I spring
> for an Onyx.

Multiple choice quiz:
a) flip a coin
b) take a stranger's advice
c) try them and judge for yourself
d) smoke another

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <oUXUc.5893$0c.158@read1.cgocable.net> nobody@home.com writes:

> Multiple choice quiz:
> a) flip a coin
> b) take a stranger's advice
> c) try them and judge for yourself
> d) smoke another

Ah, the real Sugarite is back.

The Onyx hasn't been around long enough for any concensus (or even any
published reviews) yet, and the 16-channel one still isn't out. The
Crest has a solid following and a good reputation.

Mackie brags about the quality of the Onyx preamps, the Crest doesn't,
but they're just fine. The Onyx offers a Firewire digital direct
output option which may be of some use for recording, depending on
what you're using to record.

I don't have enough fingers handy to be sure, but I believe the Crest
gives you more inputs and maybe more outputs. That could be either
good or bad.

Have you checked the weight of each to see if it matters when you have
to carry it 1/4 mile from the car to the venue?



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I use my Crest XR20 for this exact thing all the time. It's
usually married to a Fostex 1624 for location stuff. I
recently did a show that was originally supposed to be only
a recording but wound up doing SR and stage monitors. Since
I needed 13 tracks, I had to run the Fostex from the optical
ins. I purchased two Behringer ADA8000s and ran the optical
outs to the Fostex for recording, the analog outs to the
Crest for the house mix, fed the necessary signals to the
stage from the Crest AUX outs, and a house feed from the
main out. (It was a little more complicated than that
because not all mics on stage had to be routed to both house
and recording). Piece of cake and sounds great. I'm mixing
the show for the CD right now.

Will you be happy? Beg, borrow or steal one and compare it
to what you have been spoiled by.

The Crest offers exceptional value. It is very versatile in
terms of I/O, and being able to daisy chain two or more of
them together via the main, group, and solo busses offers
expandability that you might find useful. I've used it with
other consoles (via the bus ins) with great success. I wish
Crest had provided AUX bus ins, but they didn't, so there.
You might find the 5-year warranty attractive, as well.

You might also look at the Crest HP8. Outstanding value in a
larger package.

Can't help you with the Mackie. I usually don't pay much
attention to their products unless I wind up at a venue
where I'm forced to use them. Not that I think they're not
capable. They just usually don't have the feature set that I
prefer.

Good luck.



Toivo Maki
Intermedia
Riverside, CA

Lee Liebner wrote:
>
> I'm considering a Mackie Onyx or a Crest XR20 for live sound AND recording.
> If I use their respective direct outs for recording feeds while using the
> mixer for a live mix, would I be equally happy with both? Are the preamps
> close, or are the Crest's preamps of a higher grade? I'm spoiled by Great
> River and Fearn pres, so I don't want to be let down too much if I spring
> for an Onyx.
>
> Lee

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <dq2dnf4D67_-L7ncRVn-ig@comcast.com> jazzman@oceanbridge.com writes:

> Mike, here's the weights:
> XR-20: 30.5 lbs
> 1640: 29.7 lbs

That means you can carry a brownie and a bottle of water along with
the Mackie and still not have to haul more weight than with the Crest.
Go for it.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Lee Liebner wrote:
>
> Since the 1640 has been showing up on dealer websites, I wrongly assumed it
> was already shipping. Just got word that ETA is late September. If anyone's
> used the 1620, please let us know how it sums when all the inputs are full.

Haven't used it for a full band yet but my initial impressions are that the preamps and EQs are hugely better than those on older Mackies I have driven. Routing is pretty good, they finally gave us individual P48 switches per channel and the talkback mic should make it useable for lower budget TV & film production work.

It also costs about 1/3rd the price of an XR20.

Several of the guys on AAPLS are really liking the Yamaha 01V96 for live work, same pricerange as an XR20.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>It also costs about 1/3rd the price of an XR20.
>

How much? The Crest is about $1600.




John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

If you'd like someone's opinion of just the XR20, then I can give you one
from numerous experiences in live/recording mode, as you've described. But
I can more easily tell you the limitations of the XR20 and let you determine
from there, because the quality is far beyond the price and a worthwhile
purchase with these caveats in mind.

1) Only 12 direct outs, even though the unit can handle 12 mono sources and
8 stereo sources. The 8 stereo sources can be XLR or 1/4, or you can use
them as 4 additional mono XLR inputs with full channel strip but no direct
outs. So it can be a 16 mono source set of mic pres into any of the
available busses, (i.e., group 1,2,3 or 4, and/or left/right and/or mono).
So that CAN be detrimental to 16 fully independant tracks being recorded
from the direct outs.

2) The unit's only configuration is I/O on the rear of the mixer, not the
back panel of any type of roto-pod. This is perfect for installation
setups, but can be problematic if one is doing setups daily at different
venues.

3) The board is absolutely crammed because of it's "rack mount" building
specification. Not overly hard to work with, but things are close.

And that's my entire list of limitations as I see it.

However, on the other hand, the aux 1/2 bus is stereo, which lends itself to
a number of uses during a live/recording setup, because one could (and I do)
easily use the aux sends from 1/2 to record a live mix that is separate from
the FOH mix. That could also be a mix of channel strips 13 -16 without
using any of the group outs, which might be necessary for subs, etc.,
allowing a 16 track setup to have additional tracks for room mics, etc. It
has a full 6 aux sends, not 4 with 3/4 and 5/6 being switchable, but
remember that 1/2 are stereo, so to utilize 6 aux sends you need to remember
to pan hard L and hard R for those affected channel strips. All aux sends
can be Pre but are defaulted at Post The EQ is simply the best I've used in
any rackmountable unit, period, and sweeter to my ears than the Midas Venice
(which is within the range of function and price with the XR20). Channel
gain is up to 70 dB, which is considerable when working with low level
signals like an SM7 or other impedance loaded mics. It simply means more
gain on lower gain mics without noise. Also, by using the 'line' button on
the pre, it offers a 27 dB pad (useful as an instrument DI from an XLR
source, too). Not something you normally find but when you've got a hot
mic, it allows for that extra attenuation that can make the difference of
quality and clarity with a lesser well thought out mixer.

Now I'm not a Mackie basher, and the Onyx kinda caught my eye for a couple
of reasons, not excluding a reworked EQ (don't know about the bussing) and a
nice firewire converter setup, but if I were to have to guess, I'd guess
that I would have to find another reason to purchase an Onyx than any direct
comparison with my XR20. If the Onyx can rise to the occassion of being at
least 3/4 as good as the Crest, unless I needed yet one more mixer (I have
three), I couldn't nor wouldn't try to justify the expense. But it wouldn't
bother me one bit nor cause me concern to buy another XR20, even if I just
simply had the money for it! <g>. Besides, with two XR20s, I can gang
busses 1-4, which means a lot in a live situation with more than simple
left/right mains.

--
-----------

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio


"Sugarite" <nobody@home.com> wrote in message
news:4c4Vc.7095$%m4.1171760@read2.cgocable.net...
> > Sugar, you're sweet. But you forgot
> > e) A non-stranger says something useful
> > you hadn't thought of yet.
>
> Sorry for sounding snappy, but I felt you hadn't done a reasonable amount
of
> research on your own before consulting others, and essentially asking them
> to do it for you. The fact that Onyx boards aren't shipping yet
illustrates
> my point.
>
> For what it's worth, Mackie has been renaming the same grade of op-amp mic
> preamp for over 15 years. I don't see why anyone should expect that the
> Onyx preamps will be remotely impressive when the XDR's aren't especially
> distinguishable from their original preamps from the late 80's apart from
an
> improved noise floor. And why should they improve the preamps when their
> marketing agents yield better returns for less investment?
>
>

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Don't know what more one could expect from a 10 space rack mount mixer! <g>
Group and Aux inserts are available, so with the properly configured cables,
you technically have group/aux bus IN, but in truth, if it's not configured
for both Aux INS and Aux Inputs, it's conceivable that one could end up with
a requirement for both. It's not all that easily conceivable that much more
could be put into the space on the backplane! <g>

--
-----------

Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio


"T Maki" <tmaki@pe.net> wrote in message news:4124B9EA.AD7B4B38@pe.net...
> I use my Crest XR20 for this exact thing all the time. It's
> usually married to a Fostex 1624 for location stuff. I
> recently did a show that was originally supposed to be only
> a recording but wound up doing SR and stage monitors. Since
> I needed 13 tracks, I had to run the Fostex from the optical
> ins. I purchased two Behringer ADA8000s and ran the optical
> outs to the Fostex for recording, the analog outs to the
> Crest for the house mix, fed the necessary signals to the
> stage from the Crest AUX outs, and a house feed from the
> main out. (It was a little more complicated than that
> because not all mics on stage had to be routed to both house
> and recording). Piece of cake and sounds great. I'm mixing
> the show for the CD right now.
>
> Will you be happy? Beg, borrow or steal one and compare it
> to what you have been spoiled by.
>
> The Crest offers exceptional value. It is very versatile in
> terms of I/O, and being able to daisy chain two or more of
> them together via the main, group, and solo busses offers
> expandability that you might find useful. I've used it with
> other consoles (via the bus ins) with great success. I wish
> Crest had provided AUX bus ins, but they didn't, so there.
> You might find the 5-year warranty attractive, as well.
>
> You might also look at the Crest HP8. Outstanding value in a
> larger package.
>
> Can't help you with the Mackie. I usually don't pay much
> attention to their products unless I wind up at a venue
> where I'm forced to use them. Not that I think they're not
> capable. They just usually don't have the feature set that I
> prefer.
>
> Good luck.
>
>
>
> Toivo Maki
> Intermedia
> Riverside, CA
>
> Lee Liebner wrote:
> >
> > I'm considering a Mackie Onyx or a Crest XR20 for live sound AND
recording.
> > If I use their respective direct outs for recording feeds while using
the
> > mixer for a live mix, would I be equally happy with both? Are the
preamps
> > close, or are the Crest's preamps of a higher grade? I'm spoiled by
Great
> > River and Fearn pres, so I don't want to be let down too much if I
spring
> > for an Onyx.
> >
> > Lee

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Sugarite wrote:

> The fact that Onyx boards aren't shipping yet illustrates
> my point.

I've poked at a friend's Onyx that he's had for a few weeks.

--
ha

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"T Maki" <tmaki@pe.net> wrote in message news:41268603.483FA33F@pe.net...
> Totally agree.
>
> From the looks of the block diagram, there isn't a bus in to
> the AUX summing amps. The MAIN/L/R/Group bus ins are routed
> to the summing amps, which is, of course the right way to do
> it. I thought about using the inserts, but the returns are
> past the summing amps from what I can see. It's not a big
> deal, and you're right -- how much more could they put back
> there (unless the bus access could be brought out on a DB9
> with a breakout (?) (Except a dimmer pot for the Littlite
> <g>.)
>
> I love my XR20. Getting another one ASAP, or waiting a while
> for an HP8.


I got a nice deal on a used XR-20 on flea-bay six months back, and I simply
love it. It sounds great, it's relatively easy to figure out, the EQ is one
of the very few that I've used that let's me get the sound I want quickly
and predictably, and still sounds great even at extreme settings.

About the only 'gotcha' that I keep running into is with the input pad. It's
a pad for the XLR input and a switch for the TRS input; when only the XLR
input is plugged in it acts as a pad, but if anything is plugged into the
TRS input it acts as a switch between the TRS and XLR inputs. All this means
is that if I come from a pactch bay into the TRS input, the pad has to be in
to get any signal, and there has been a number of times when I can't figure
out why I have no effects return because I have the pad out on that channel.
Since the inputs are on the bottom of the board, it's not like I can just
look and see which input jack I'm using.

But for recording, this arrangement is really nice. I have a MOTU 1224, and
connect it to the 12 direct outs for recording and the 12 line-ins for
playback, so all I have to do for playback is punch in the pad on a channel.
The only thing I lose with this arrangement is using the switch as a pad for
a hot mic.

Anyway, I bought the board based on the many glowing comments I read in this
group, and now that I've had it in action for half a year I can't see that
I'll ever sell it willingly. I can't imagine anyone buying one of these and
being disappointed, unless they just needed a bigger board in the first
place.

Sean

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <JZNVc.2564$0o5.361@bignews1.bellsouth.net> sjconolly_98@yaaho.com writes:

> I got a nice deal on a used XR-20 on flea-bay six months back

> About the only 'gotcha' that I keep running into is with the input pad. It's
> a pad for the XLR input and a switch for the TRS input; when only the XLR
> input is plugged in it acts as a pad, but if anything is plugged into the
> TRS input it acts as a switch between the TRS and XLR inputs. All this means
> is that if I come from a pactch bay into the TRS input, the pad has to be in
> to get any signal

That's pretty clever. When in the studio, it's a mic/line selector
switch (where, if you need to pad down the level to the channel, you
can use a pad that's on the mic - you have time to switch it in or
patch one in line), and when used as a PA console you have quick
access to a pad on the mic input when the bass player comes on stage
20 dB louder than at the sound check.

Think about it this way and you won't get confused. And if the mixer
stays in the studio, put a new lable on the butotn.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1093128475k@trad...
>
> In article <JZNVc.2564$0o5.361@bignews1.bellsouth.net>
sjconolly_98@yaaho.com writes:
>
> > I got a nice deal on a used XR-20 on flea-bay six months back
>
> > About the only 'gotcha' that I keep running into is with the input pad.
It's
> > a pad for the XLR input and a switch for the TRS input; when only the
XLR
> > input is plugged in it acts as a pad, but if anything is plugged into
the
> > TRS input it acts as a switch between the TRS and XLR inputs. All this
means
> > is that if I come from a pactch bay into the TRS input, the pad has to
be in
> > to get any signal
>
> That's pretty clever. When in the studio, it's a mic/line selector
> switch (where, if you need to pad down the level to the channel, you
> can use a pad that's on the mic - you have time to switch it in or
> patch one in line), and when used as a PA console you have quick
> access to a pad on the mic input when the bass player comes on stage
> 20 dB louder than at the sound check.

It's a great feature, you just have to keep in mind how it works. There are
so many features on this board that are so well thought out that I get a
kick just from the engineering that went into it. Somebody at Crest has been
using this kind of gear for a long time and used their engineering chops to
put together one truly fine board. I'd love to check out one of their larger
boards, I suspect that they'll blur the line between engineering and art.

Sean

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <YxYVc.4155$0o5.2295@bignews1.bellsouth.net> sjconolly_98@yaaho.com writes:

> There are
> so many features on this board that are so well thought out that I get a
> kick just from the engineering that went into it. Somebody at Crest has been
> using this kind of gear for a long time and used their engineering chops to
> put together one truly fine board.

Someone from Crest approached me about writing some manuals for them
(it didn't pan out - they didn't have the money) and we talked for
quite a while about how their products were designed. They really did put
a lot of years of road experience into deciding on the feature set and
layout.

Often when I'm writing documentation for a piece of equipment (and
this is by no means unique to studio gear) I think - as probaby most
of us have when trying to puzzle out a feature, function, or quirk -
"Geez, why the heck did they design it THAT way?" Sometimes I can come
up with a rationalization and that's how I document it. Other times I
have to ask, and the answer, if I can get one at all, is often pretty
lame. Nothing like getting the input from the working troops when
designing something that they're going to like to use.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Sean Conolly wrote:
>
> Mackies have their place, as do the cheap Behringer mixers, and I'll be the
> first to admit that the Crest is way overkill for my band live. And I don't
> care - I don't do this for a living, I do it for fun and I'll run whatever
> gear makes -me- enjoy the show more. Besides the Crest fits my needs so well
> for both live and recording that I can use one good board instead of two
> marginal ones.

My initial impressions of the Onyx 1620 indicate that it is not a marginal mixer.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Kurt Albershardt wrote:

> Sean Conolly wrote:

> > Mackies have their place, as do the cheap Behringer mixers, and I'll be the
> > first to admit that the Crest is way overkill for my band live. And I don't
> > care - I don't do this for a living, I do it for fun and I'll run whatever
> > gear makes -me- enjoy the show more. Besides the Crest fits my needs so well
> > for both live and recording that I can use one good board instead of two
> > marginal ones.

> My initial impressions of the Onyx 1620 indicate that it is not a marginal
> mixer.

I'm looking forward to a get-together where we can drive that output
stage up to yellow lights and hear what we have there.

--
ha

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Kurt Albershardt" <kurt@nv.net> wrote in message
news:2ouq7pFejpssU1@uni-berlin.de
> Arny Krueger wrote:

Arny makes a confusing typo:

>> In comparison, the vaporware XR20 has something more to offer.
>
> I'm assuming you meant the vaproware Onyx 1640?

Agreed.

>> I'm a little disappointed that the front-panel eq is relatively
>> minimal.

> Are you by chance looking at the front panel of the Onyx 1220?

Yes.

> It has a single sweepable mid, but the 1620 and 1640 both have dual
> sweepable mids (as does the Crest X-Rack series.)

Exactly.