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Gain reduction meters

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Anonymous
August 25, 2004 3:05:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hiya,

On my RNC there is an LED gain reduction meter like so:

+----- gain reduction ------+
20 16 12 8 6 4 2 0
* * * * * * * *

So as the input signal level increases, the meter "moves" to the left.

I'm just curious, is this pretty much a universal convention? I'm
used to it now but I found it a bit counter-intuitive, as VU meters,
voltmeters, speedometers, tachometers, etc. have all taught me that
right or clockwise equals "more".

Maybe it would have made more sense to me if they labelled the meter
"gain" and reversed the order of the numbers :-)

In my very limited experience I can only think of compressors that
meter the same way as the RNC. Anybody ever seen a gain reduction
meter that moves the other way (i.e. increase in signal level moves
the gain reduction meter to the right)?

--PW

More about : gain reduction meters

Anonymous
August 25, 2004 10:08:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <f575e202.0408251005.338f401e@posting.google.com> stuff@slinkp.com writes:

> So as the input signal level increases, the meter "moves" to the left.
>
> I'm just curious, is this pretty much a universal convention?

Completely conventional. With no signal (or a signal above the
threshold, you have no gain reduction. As the signal level rises, the
gain through the compressor gets lower, so the meter moves to the left
to indicate that. (less gain)

I think I may have seen a compressor with a gain reduction meter that
goes upscale as it compresses, but I can't even think of what it is.

Some compressors have a switch that lets you select whether the meter
is reading gain reduction or output level. Switch it to ouptut and it
will read up scale with incoming signal, but as gain reduction kicks
in, it moves up scale less for a given increase in input signal level.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 25, 2004 10:41:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Paul Winkler" <stuff@slinkp.com> wrote in message
news:f575e202.0408251005.338f401e@posting.google.com...

> In my very limited experience I can only think of compressors that
> meter the same way as the RNC. Anybody ever seen a gain reduction
> meter that moves the other way (i.e. increase in signal level moves
> the gain reduction meter to the right)?

Yes, the Safe Sound Audio Model P1, a combination preamp and compressor from
the UK.

Peace,
Paul
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August 26, 2004 12:02:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Paul Winkler wrote:

> I'm just curious, is this pretty much a universal convention? I'm
> used to it now but I found it a bit counter-intuitive, as VU meters,
> voltmeters, speedometers, tachometers, etc. have all taught me that
> right or clockwise equals "more".

Take a look at any compressor that has an actual VU meter (i.e. 1176,
LA2A). When their VU meter is set to show gain reduction, it moves to
the left as well.

--
Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
Multi-Track Masters on CD-ROM
www.Raw-Tracks.com
August 26, 2004 1:57:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Paul Winkler wrote:

> Hiya,
>
> On my RNC there is an LED gain reduction meter like so:
>
> +----- gain reduction ------+
> 20 16 12 8 6 4 2 0
> * * * * * * * *
>
> So as the input signal level increases, the meter "moves" to the left.
>
> I'm just curious, is this pretty much a universal convention? I'm
> used to it now but I found it a bit counter-intuitive, as VU meters,
> voltmeters, speedometers, tachometers, etc. have all taught me that
> right or clockwise equals "more".

Voltmeters, speedometers, & tachometers usually indicate values above zero.
speedos & tachs usually don't function if you're in reverse, but if you
wire an analog DC volt meter backwards it will TRY to move to the left, but
there's usually a peg there to stop it. If you think of a compressor as a
negative amplifier, it's actually pretty natural.


> Maybe it would have made more sense to me if they labelled the meter
> "gain" and reversed the order of the numbers :-)

Maybe, but it didn't take long to get used to it, did it?

--<< snip - (the part where he said he was used to it >>--

With LEDs, you get an extra hint in that the more dots are lit, the more
the device is doing. Mechanical meters aren't quite as intuitive. So
that's another reason to be glad you bought an RNC instead of an 1176. (in
addition to all the money you still have in your bank account).
Anonymous
August 26, 2004 4:21:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Paul Winkler wrote:

> Hiya,
>
> On my RNC there is an LED gain reduction meter like so:
>
> +----- gain reduction ------+
> 20 16 12 8 6 4 2 0
> * * * * * * * *
>
> So as the input signal level increases, the meter "moves" to the left.
>
> I'm just curious, is this pretty much a universal convention? I'm
> used to it now but I found it a bit counter-intuitive, as VU meters,
> voltmeters, speedometers, tachometers, etc. have all taught me that
> right or clockwise equals "more".

It does equal more. More signal if the thing moves to the right, and
less if it moves to the left.

Or, think of it this way: if you took a meter (which grows to the
right) of the signal going in, and the you match up and subtract
off the bits that the compressor is showing, then you get the
signal level of the output:

input: ------------------>
gain reduction: <---
output: -------------->

Actually, that is a little odd since the right end of the gain reduction
arrow would be moving along with the right tip of the input level arrow,
but you get the idea.

- Logan
Anonymous
August 26, 2004 5:07:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< I think I may have seen a compressor with a gain reduction meter that
goes upscale as it compresses, but I can't even think of what it is. >>

The channel compressor in the SSL 9000?


Scott Fraser
Anonymous
August 26, 2004 6:18:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Paul Winkler wrote:

> Hiya,
>
> On my RNC there is an LED gain reduction meter like so:
>
> +----- gain reduction ------+
> 20 16 12 8 6 4 2 0
> * * * * * * * *
>
> So as the input signal level increases, the meter "moves" to the left.
>
> I'm just curious, is this pretty much a universal convention?

It's not unusual at all.

I find it very usuable. The fact that the metering moves the *wrong* way,
so to speak, makes it clear in a crowded rack where the compressor is !

> I'm
> used to it now but I found it a bit counter-intuitive, as VU meters,
> voltmeters, speedometers, tachometers, etc. have all taught me that
> right or clockwise equals "more".

Quite !

As the compressor acts - the gain is reduced - so left = less which is how
the meter works.


> Maybe it would have made more sense to me if they labelled the meter
> "gain" and reversed the order of the numbers :-)
>
> In my very limited experience I can only think of compressors that
> meter the same way as the RNC. Anybody ever seen a gain reduction
> meter that moves the other way (i.e. increase in signal level moves
> the gain reduction meter to the right)?

A long time back - moving coil meters on compressors may have done this,
since it's not easy to obtain a right hand zero movement.

Graham
Anonymous
August 26, 2004 6:20:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article <f575e202.0408251005.338f401e@posting.google.com> stuff@slinkp.com writes:
>
> > So as the input signal level increases, the meter "moves" to the left.
> >
> > I'm just curious, is this pretty much a universal convention?
>
> Completely conventional. With no signal (or a signal above the
> threshold, you have no gain reduction. As the signal level rises, the
> gain through the compressor gets lower, so the meter moves to the left
> to indicate that. (less gain)
>
> I think I may have seen a compressor with a gain reduction meter that
> goes upscale as it compresses, but I can't even think of what it is.
>
> Some compressors have a switch that lets you select whether the meter
> is reading gain reduction or output level. Switch it to ouptut and it
> will read up scale with incoming signal, but as gain reduction kicks
> in, it moves up scale less for a given increase in input signal level.

I reckon that is a far less useful measure though.

I like to know how much *gain reduction* I'm applying. Esp useful in a live situation.


Graham
Anonymous
August 26, 2004 10:10:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I believe the SSL stereo buss compressor moves to the right as the gain is
reduced
Anonymous
August 26, 2004 5:45:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 25 Aug 2004 18:08:10 -0400, Mike Rivers <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote:
>
>> So as the input signal level increases, the meter "moves" to the left.
>>
>> I'm just curious, is this pretty much a universal convention?
>

The first compressors I used had two meters: A gain reduction meter and
an output level meter. DBX (had switchable "soft knee") iirc.
Anonymous
August 26, 2004 6:25:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

While We are on the subject of gain reduction meters.
Anybody notice the odd behavior of ProTools DigiRack Gate meters?
PT version 6.4 running on Mac system 10.3
The gate metering is very different from PT version 5

Paul Winkler wrote:
> Hiya,
>
> On my RNC there is an LED gain reduction meter like so:
>
> +----- gain reduction ------+
> 20 16 12 8 6 4 2 0
> * * * * * * * *
>
> So as the input signal level increases, the meter "moves" to the left.
>
> I'm just curious, is this pretty much a universal convention? I'm
> used to it now but I found it a bit counter-intuitive, as VU meters,
> voltmeters, speedometers, tachometers, etc. have all taught me that
> right or clockwise equals "more".
>
> Maybe it would have made more sense to me if they labelled the meter
> "gain" and reversed the order of the numbers :-)
>
> In my very limited experience I can only think of compressors that
> meter the same way as the RNC. Anybody ever seen a gain reduction
> meter that moves the other way (i.e. increase in signal level moves
> the gain reduction meter to the right)?
>
> --PW
Anonymous
August 26, 2004 7:14:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <20040825210741.04158.00003407@mb-m15.aol.com> scotfraser@aol.com writes:

> << I think I may have seen a compressor with a gain reduction meter that
> goes upscale as it compresses, but I can't even think of what it is. >>
>
> The channel compressor in the SSL 9000?

Are they still putting those modules in upside down? I TOLD then that
the connector wiring was wrong on the drawing! <G>

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 26, 2004 7:55:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Paul Winkler wrote:

> I'm just curious, is this pretty much a universal convention? I'm
> used to it now but I found it a bit counter-intuitive, as VU meters,
> voltmeters, speedometers, tachometers, etc. have all taught me that
> right or clockwise equals "more".

Right, and in the posited case, it moves to the left to indicate _less_.

--
ha
Anonymous
August 27, 2004 8:54:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"hank alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:1gj3nfy.kis5m71b6w2fyN%walkinay@thegrid.net...
> Paul Winkler wrote:
>
> > I'm just curious, is this pretty much a universal convention? I'm
> > used to it now but I found it a bit counter-intuitive, as VU
meters,
> > voltmeters, speedometers, tachometers, etc. have all taught me
that
> > right or clockwise equals "more".

Not in the case of a faucet. Clockwise means less water.

Norm Strong
Anonymous
August 27, 2004 8:54:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

normanstrong wrote:

>"hank alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message
>news:1gj3nfy.kis5m71b6w2fyN%walkinay@thegrid.net...
>> Paul Winkler wrote:
>>
>> > I'm just curious, is this pretty much a universal convention? I'm
>> > used to it now but I found it a bit counter-intuitive, as VU meters,
>> > voltmeters, speedometers, tachometers, etc. have all taught me that
>> > right or clockwise equals "more".
>
>Not in the case of a faucet. Clockwise means less water.

Likewise on kitchen stoves, where clockwise means less heat.

--
========================================================================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
mkesti@gv.net | - The Who, Bargain
Anonymous
August 29, 2004 9:39:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

normanstrong <normanstrong@comcast.net> wrote:


> Not in the case of a faucet. Clockwise means less water.

For the either the hot or the cold water, depending on the faucet. But
not both.

ulysses
!