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Firewire, Hot Swappable or not?

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August 28, 2004 5:31:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I read much about firewire before deciding to move from USB to firewire
for my ourboard devices
Firewire was supposed to be hot patchable but my M-Audio 410 claims hot
patching thier firewire will damage and render inoperatable both my
ports and ext devices
connections MUST be made or unmade with the computer OFF
Is the hot swappable claim of firewire just ad copy ? what other
firewire devices forbid hot swapping?
thanks
George

More about : firewire hot swappable

August 28, 2004 5:31:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On my mac, if unplug or turn off a Firewire unit I get a message that
something was turned off wrong and there might be damage to something...
If I eject the hard drive like I would a CD the message doesn't come on.
I think all the FW units are a little different.

George wrote:
> I read much about firewire before deciding to move from USB to firewire
> for my ourboard devices
> Firewire was supposed to be hot patchable but my M-Audio 410 claims hot
> patching thier firewire will damage and render inoperatable both my
> ports and ext devices
> connections MUST be made or unmade with the computer OFF
> Is the hot swappable claim of firewire just ad copy ? what other
> firewire devices forbid hot swapping?
> thanks
> George
Anonymous
August 28, 2004 7:03:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <g.p.gleason-520F49.09312528082004@netnews.worldnet.att.net> g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net writes:

> I read much about firewire before deciding to move from USB to firewire
> for my ourboard devices
> Firewire was supposed to be hot patchable but my M-Audio 410 claims hot
> patching thier firewire will damage and render inoperatable both my
> ports and ext devices
> connections MUST be made or unmade with the computer OFF

I think it depends on how powering is handled. Data is hot-swappable,
and because they push the technology heavily for disk drives and video
cameras, I suppose those are designed so they can be yanked and
plugged without damage.

Something like an audio interface generally has no compelling need to
be hot-swapped, so maybe they just didn't bother with taking care of
that end of the business in hardware, but dealt with it in software
(the documentation).

I'd trust what the manual for the Firewire M-410 says.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Related resources
Anonymous
August 29, 2004 3:44:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <10j1amfbcv3jd20@corp.supernews.com>, Danny <Keep@Your.com>
wrote:

> On my mac, if unplug or turn off a Firewire unit I get a message that
> something was turned off wrong and there might be damage to something...
> If I eject the hard drive like I would a CD the message doesn't come on.
> I think all the FW units are a little different.

IEEE1394 standard specifies that devices are to be hot pluggeable.
The errror message above says that the computer cannot guarantee that
all changed data has been written to the removeable device before you
unplugged it. This is software only, or data. There is no damage to
hardware.

HTH

Marc

--
Marc Heusser
(remove the obvious: CHEERS and MERICAL...until end to reply via email)
August 29, 2004 3:44:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Marc Heusser wrote:


>
> IEEE1394 standard specifies that devices are to be hot pluggeable.
> The errror message above says that the computer cannot guarantee that
> all changed data has been written to the removeable device before you
> unplugged it. This is software only, or data. There is no damage to
> hardware.
>
> HTH
>
> Marc
>

Thanks for that. I thought so but you know I always swallow a rock when
I unplug.
Anonymous
August 29, 2004 8:04:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <marc.heusser-AD28EE.11443629082004@individual.net>,
marc.heusser@CHEERSheusser.comMERCIALSPAMMERS.invalid says...
> IEEE1394 standard specifies that devices are to be hot pluggeable.
> The errror message above says that the computer cannot guarantee that
> all changed data has been written to the removeable device before you
> unplugged it. This is software only, or data. There is no damage to
> hardware.

Maybe so, but there are apparently some bus-powered Firewire drives that
can damage the Mac's hardware if you hot-plug them, despite the fact
that FireWire was designed for that to work. There are signs everywhere
at Berklee forbidding hot-plugging drives because of that.

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?
Anonymous
August 29, 2004 9:24:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< I thought so but you know I always swallow a rock when
I unplug. >>

With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so that the
FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After that, unplug at
will.

Scott Fraser
Anonymous
August 29, 2004 9:24:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <20040829132418.26080.00002864@mb-m28.aol.com> scotfraser@aol.com writes:

> With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so that the
> FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After that, unplug at
> will.

I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
August 30, 2004 1:37:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <znr1093804170k@trad>, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers)
wrote:

> In article <20040829132418.26080.00002864@mb-m28.aol.com> scotfraser@aol.com
> writes:
>
> > With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so that the
> > FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After that, unplug at
> > will.
>
> I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
> imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."
>
>
I am going from now on assume that the devices are not hot swappable
regardless of if I am warned or not
Thanks guys
G
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 1:42:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike rivers expressed:
<<
I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."
>>



The trash can icon turns into an eject icon if you get near it with a drive
icon. If that still worries you, just select the icon of the drive you need to
unmount and select eject from the file menu, or hit "command" E.

Mac
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 2:17:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article <20040829132418.26080.00002864@mb-m28.aol.com> scotfraser@aol.com writes:
>
>
>>With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so that the
>>FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After that, unplug at
>>will.
>
>
> I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
> imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."


That's windoze. Macs aren't that stupid.
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 4:25:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:54:45 -0600, Danny <Keep@Your.com> wrote:

>On my mac, if unplug or turn off a Firewire unit I get a message that
>something was turned off wrong and there might be damage to something...
>If I eject the hard drive like I would a CD the message doesn't come on.
>I think all the FW units are a little different.

Does it say physical damage might be done? Or that data buffers might
be lost?

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
August 30, 2004 4:25:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Laurence Payne wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:54:45 -0600, Danny <Keep@Your.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On my mac, if unplug or turn off a Firewire unit I get a message that
>>something was turned off wrong and there might be damage to something...
>>If I eject the hard drive like I would a CD the message doesn't come on.
>>I think all the FW units are a little different.
>
>
> Does it say physical damage might be done? Or that data buffers might
> be lost?
>
> CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
> "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
It says data might be lost... but it never is.
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 4:49:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:54:45 -0600, Danny <Keep@Your.com> wrote:

>On my mac, if unplug or turn off a Firewire unit I get a message that
>something was turned off wrong and there might be damage to something...
>If I eject the hard drive like I would a CD the message doesn't come on.
>I think all the FW units are a little different.

I've not used the external Firewire interfaces on my Mac G4 (yet) but, I just
got an external DVD combo drive for my PC. The manual states, "you can unplug
without fear as long as your not writing to, or reading from the drive." Really
has no pressing to your question, I just wanted to throw in some PC info just
for the heck of it.
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 8:27:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< > With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so that
the
> FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After that, unplug at
> will.>

<I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."
>>

It's a Mac thing. The way you unmount a drive or eject a disk is to drag its
icon to the trash. Also, any data item sitting in the trash can be retrieved up
until you intentionally empty the trash. It's a Mac thing.


Scott Fraser
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 8:30:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< I am going from now on assume that the devices are not hot swappable
regardless of if I am warned or not >>

But they are. I do it all the time. Dragging to the trash is just the Mac
method of unmounting a drive.

Scott Fraser
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 12:27:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Maybe so, but there are apparently some bus-powered Firewire drives >that
> can damage the Mac's hardware if you hot-plug them, despite the fact
> that FireWire was designed for that to work. There are signs everywhere
> at Berklee forbidding hot-plugging drives because of that.


There have been lots of documented cases of blown FW controllers on
Mac G4's when "Hot Plugging". Some were probably ESD though.
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 12:37:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <20040829174239.24956.00001549@mb-m20.aol.com> mackerr@aol.compost writes:

> The trash can icon turns into an eject icon if you get near it with a drive
> icon. If that still worries you, just select the icon of the drive you need to
> unmount and select eject from the file menu, or hit "command" E.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm so non-iconic I probably never would
have figured that out even if I saw it. On my first excursion on a
Mac, we were working with a Dyaxis system and needed more disk space,
so I figured that dragging files to the trash can would delete them,
but the disk was still full no matter how much trash I took out.
Finaly someone told me that I had to EMPTY the trash can before the
files were really deleted. I probably never would have figured that
out either.

Where do people learn this stuff?

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 1:13:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <znr1093827829k@trad>, Mike Rivers <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote:
>
>In article <20040829174239.24956.00001549@mb-m20.aol.com> mackerr@aol.compost writes:
>
>> The trash can icon turns into an eject icon if you get near it with a drive
>> icon. If that still worries you, just select the icon of the drive you need to
>> unmount and select eject from the file menu, or hit "command" E.
>
>Thanks for the explanation. I'm so non-iconic I probably never would
>have figured that out even if I saw it. On my first excursion on a
>Mac, we were working with a Dyaxis system and needed more disk space,
>so I figured that dragging files to the trash can would delete them,
>but the disk was still full no matter how much trash I took out.
>Finaly someone told me that I had to EMPTY the trash can before the
>files were really deleted. I probably never would have figured that
>out either.

On the Xerox Star, the first commercial machine with a GUI and the place
where Apple got the notion of the trashcan, there is also a Jesus icon which
can be used to resurrect dead files.

I think the whole thing is very counterintuitive, but this isn't really
the place to point out why I hate GUIs so much.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 2:36:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <96mdneuaYJv4Ja_cRVn-gg@omsoft.com> nopsam@nospam.net writes:

> >>With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash

> > I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
> > imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."

> That's windoze. Macs aren't that stupid.

Or maybe Mac users have a better imagination. When I want to get rid
of something physical, I put it in the trash. I have (more often than
I'd like to admit) occasionally rooted through the trash can to
retrieve something, usually a piece of paper. But I can't count on
anything being there or being retrievable. Ever try to read through a
cup full of coffee grounds?


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 4:12:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

scotfraser@aol.com (ScotFraser) wrote in message news:<20040830002741.05775.00004473@mb-m05.aol.com>...

<SNIP>

It's a Mac thing.
>
>
> Scott Fraser

Sort of like Volkswagens, right?

My keyboard player has this theory that there is a high rate of
corollation between people that buy Macs and Volkswagen Jettas and
GTi's.

Analogeezer
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 5:05:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> But I can't count on anything being there or being retrievable. Ever
> try to read through a cup full of coffee grounds?


Heck, haven't you ever retrieved the grounds *and* the newspaper because
you were out of coffee?



> -- I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com) However, until the
> spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked
> from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret
> decoder ring and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 9:06:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

c'mon, guys,

Windows took a cue from Mac years ago and created the Eco-Friendly Recycle
Bin. Now, we have the same basic thing as the MacTrashcan. Adding Norton
SystemWorks gives another layer of protection, as NSW can 'protect' the
RecycleBin so even after you empty the RB, NSW holds on to it for a
user-specified period of time before actually deleting it- kinda like taking
the recycling to the curb, you need to wait for the trash men to come pick
it up.

As far as the 1394 thing with PCs, it's all HotSwap, too. Some devices,
like harddrives, use Delayed Write or write buffering, which can give an
error if you unplug while it's still waiting to dump to the disk, but other
than that, it's all good.

and, yes, i have had to read through grinds- it's lame and I hate it.

Be well



"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1093871818k@trad...
>
> In article <96mdneuaYJv4Ja_cRVn-gg@omsoft.com> nopsam@nospam.net writes:
>
> > >>With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash
>
> > > I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
> > > imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."
>
> > That's windoze. Macs aren't that stupid.
>
> Or maybe Mac users have a better imagination. When I want to get rid
> of something physical, I put it in the trash. I have (more often than
> I'd like to admit) occasionally rooted through the trash can to
> retrieve something, usually a piece of paper. But I can't count on
> anything being there or being retrievable. Ever try to read through a
> cup full of coffee grounds?
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 9:35:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

George wrote:

> (Mike Rivers) wrote:

> > scotfraser@aol.comedy writes:

> > > With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so
> > > that the FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After
> > > that, unplug at will.

> > I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
> > imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."

<To Mike: I/we am/are telling you differently.>

> I am going from now on assume that the devices are not hot swappable
> regardless of if I am warned or not

It doesn't not mean under Mac OS what Mike is thinking it means from his
Wintel viewpoint. It means dismount the drive or device in question, so
that the system knows not to expect it there next time the sys looks
around to see what's hooked up.

You may do this with total impunity; it does not erase anything at all
from your drive. If you do not do this your Mac may become confused, and
shortly thereafter, you, too, may become confused. This will lead to a
reboot.

--
ha
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 9:35:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jay Levitt wrote:

> Maybe so, but there are apparently some bus-powered Firewire drives that
> can damage the Mac's hardware if you hot-plug them, despite the fact
> that FireWire was designed for that to work. There are signs everywhere
> at Berklee forbidding hot-plugging drives because of that.

There was a string of Mac laptops, including TiBooks like mine, that
suffered from a FW defect, and that was the source of the blown busses.
It wasn't th fault of the drive, it was Apple's fault. Beyond a certain
date of manufacture one needn't worry about this, as eventually the
bitching got to Apple's brain, even as the warranty fixes impacted
Apple's bottom line, and action was taken to fix the buss. I waited to
buy my TiBook until the last "still boots OS9" 'books were near their
end-of-(sales)-life.

--
ha
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 11:49:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< Ever try to read through a
cup full of coffee grounds? >>

I can attest that magnetic tape is playable through a large qualtity of coffee
grounds & old stale milk.



Scott Fraser
Anonymous
August 31, 2004 12:44:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <20040830154916.09145.00002634@mb-m01.aol.com> scotfraser@aol.com writes:

> I can attest that magnetic tape is playable through a large qualtity of coffee
> grounds & old stale milk.

Oh, so you've eaten breakfast over an open box of tape, too?

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 31, 2004 5:01:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Analogeezer posited:
<<
Sort of like Volkswagens, right?

My keyboard player has this theory that there is a high rate of
corollation between people that buy Macs and Volkswagen Jettas and
GTi's.

Analogeezer >>



As the owner at various times of 3 VW's and 2 Audi's and 6 Macs I can't
disagree. :) 

Mac Kerr
Anonymous
August 31, 2004 11:11:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article <20040829174239.24956.00001549@mb-m20.aol.com> mackerr@aol.compost writes:
>
>
>>The trash can icon turns into an eject icon if you get near it with a drive
>>icon. If that still worries you, just select the icon of the drive you need to
>>unmount and select eject from the file menu, or hit "command" E.
>
>
> Thanks for the explanation. I'm so non-iconic I probably never would
> have figured that out even if I saw it. On my first excursion on a
> Mac, we were working with a Dyaxis system and needed more disk space,
> so I figured that dragging files to the trash can would delete them,
> but the disk was still full no matter how much trash I took out.
> Finaly someone told me that I had to EMPTY the trash can before the
> files were really deleted. I probably never would have figured that
> out either.
>
> Where do people learn this stuff?
>

From Lieber and Stoller, via the Coasters ( yakkety yak - don't
talk back ) :) 

> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

--
Les Cargill
Anonymous
September 8, 2004 4:09:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Dragging a drive to the trash is the same as selecting 'eject' from the
Finder. Dragging the contents of the drive to the trash would 'erase
everything'. I wouldn't recommend dragging your sytem drive icon to
the trash. I haven't tried it, but idoesn't sound like a good thing to
do.

Norm!!


In article <znr1093804170k@trad>, Mike Rivers <mrivers@d-and-d.com>
wrote:

> In article <20040829132418.26080.00002864@mb-m28.aol.com> scotfraser@aol.com
> writes:
>
> > With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so that the
> > FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After that, unplug at
> > will.
>
> I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
> imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."
>
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
September 8, 2004 4:11:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <20040830210115.16860.00002697@mb-m20.aol.com>, MacKerr
<mackerr@aol.compost> wrote:

> Analogeezer posited:
> <<
> Sort of like Volkswagens, right?
>
> My keyboard player has this theory that there is a high rate of
> corollation between people that buy Macs and Volkswagen Jettas and
> GTi's.
>
> Analogeezer >>


>
> As the owner at various times of 3 VW's and 2 Audi's and 6 Macs I can't
> disagree. :) 
>
> Mac Kerr
Hey there's no crime in buying quality items.

Norm!!
Anonymous
September 8, 2004 4:56:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Norm!! wrote:
> I wouldn't recommend dragging your sytem drive icon to
> the trash. I haven't tried it, but idoesn't sound like a good thing to
> do.

Nothing much. Here's a picture:
____________________________________________________________
/____________________________________________________________\
| |
| : / : The disk "<diskname>" is in use and could not be |
| < ejected. |
| \___/ |
| Try quitting applications and try again. |
| ____ |
| (_OK_) |
\____________________________________________________________/

I don't think it's going to work no matter how many applications
you try quitting, though...

- Logan
Anonymous
September 8, 2004 10:49:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <070920041809129694%Thebigonion@plunger.adj> Thebigonion@plunger.adj writes:

> Dragging a drive to the trash is the same as selecting 'eject' from the
> Finder.

I've gathered that. But how are you supposed to learn this fact?


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
September 8, 2004 3:20:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article <070920041809129694%Thebigonion@plunger.adj> Thebigonion@plunger.adj writes:

>>Dragging a drive to the trash is the same as selecting 'eject' from the
>>Finder.

> I've gathered that. But how are you supposed to learn this fact?

Story I've heard (possibly apocryphal) is the whole trash-means-eject
concept came about pretty much accidentally. Supposedly, in early
versions of the Macintosh (before it was ever released as a product),
things worked more sensibly: to eject a disk, you'd click once on
the disk icon to select it and then do some sort of operation to
eject it (like choose "eject" from the pull-down menu). This would
leave you with a "dead" icon on the desktop, so you'd want to get
rid of the dead icon, and you'd drag it to the trash.

However, when they did user testing to see how well people liked this
way of doing things, they found that the users hated it because they
perceived the menu option thing as a needless step and a waste of
time. So they simplified the process by making that step unnecessary
and making drag to trash mean eject.

Unfortunately, this really goes against the whole idea of making things
intuitive. Apple does a good job, a lot of the time, of not making
arbitrary things that you "just have to know", and that seems to be a
big priority for them, but sometimes they just totally throw that out
the window and do something bizarre like this.

It's one of those things that actually makes sense once you know the
interesting little historical tidbit behind it, but before that it
just seems totally random. In that sense, it's no better than the
original of the name of the Unix command "grep". There was a text
editor where the "g" command would do something globally (i.e. for
every line of text), and one thing you could do is specify a pattern
to check every line for, and the pattern is called a "regular
expression" (after regular languages, which of course *everyone*
knows about if they took a theory of computation class in college,
right?), and then once you have applied a RE to your g, you can do
"p" to print the lines that the RE matched. The help file summarized
this as g/RE/p (because regular expressions are traditionally
surrounded by slashes), so naturally the word "grep" means "search
a file for lines that match a pattern". Except that you would never
in a million years guess that "grep" is the right command to do
what you want if that's what you wanted to do and all you had is
a list of commands. Trash-means-eject isn't quite as convoluted
a story as that, but it's almost equally hard to guess, if not
harder since you would quickly conclude it's best to NOT experiment
by dragging things into the trash, since that destroys things.

Now, if you want to have an intuitive interface for ejecting a disk,
I personally think there should be a little boot that you can drag
onto the disk. When you let go, it kicks the disk out, preferably
with a nice stress-relieving animation.

- Logan
Anonymous
September 8, 2004 4:47:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <OVB%c.426$FV4.383@fe2.texas.rr.com> lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com writes:

> Now, if you want to have an intuitive interface for ejecting a disk,
> I personally think there should be a little boot that you can drag
> onto the disk. When you let go, it kicks the disk out, preferably
> with a nice stress-relieving animation.

Doesn't this go all the way back to the floppy disk? I seem to
remember having to click on something to eject the floppy (there was
no mechanical button an a Mack floppy drive) but I don't remember
dragging the floppy icon to the trash can.

To me, the Windows concept of a left mouse button that just does it
and right mouse button that brings up a menu makes a whole lot of
sense, but then the Mac only had one mouse button.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
September 8, 2004 4:47:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:

> To me, the Windows concept of a left mouse button that just does it
> and right mouse button that brings up a menu makes a whole lot of
> sense, but then the Mac only had one mouse button.


The Right button Mac equivalent is control-click, or frequently just
hold the button for 1/2 sec, which has no windoze equivalent.

My Mac, however, has a Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical, the best thing
Microsoft ever made (incl. the X-Box). I too like right-clicks and the
wheel and its double-click feature.
Anonymous
September 8, 2004 6:36:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

These days Macs can be easily fitted with two button mice and, depending
on the manufacturer and drivers provided, the right button can be
customized to work much the same way it does in a windows environment.

In Mac OSX if you drag a storage device (hard drive, floppy, etc.) or
network drive to the trash can the trash can icon will change to that of
the standard eject symbol to verify that you are really ejecting or
unmounting that device/drive rather than erasing it.

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article <OVB%c.426$FV4.383@fe2.texas.rr.com> lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com writes:
>
>
>>Now, if you want to have an intuitive interface for ejecting a disk,
>>I personally think there should be a little boot that you can drag
>>onto the disk. When you let go, it kicks the disk out, preferably
>>with a nice stress-relieving animation.
>
>
> Doesn't this go all the way back to the floppy disk? I seem to
> remember having to click on something to eject the floppy (there was
> no mechanical button an a Mack floppy drive) but I don't remember
> dragging the floppy icon to the trash can.
>
> To me, the Windows concept of a left mouse button that just does it
> and right mouse button that brings up a menu makes a whole lot of
> sense, but then the Mac only had one mouse button...
Anonymous
September 8, 2004 9:48:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:
> Doesn't this go all the way back to the floppy disk? I seem to
> remember having to click on something to eject the floppy (there was
> no mechanical button an a Mack floppy drive) but I don't remember
> dragging the floppy icon to the trash can.

I believe there have always been two ways to do it. You can either
click on the disk icon to select it, and then select Eject from the
drop-down menu (or hit Apple-E), or you can drag to the trash.
So theoretically you could use a Mac for years and years and never
know or care about trash-means-eject. But most people end up
using it just because it's quicker.

(I think you could also do Shift-Apple-1 to eject the first floppy,
but I think this actually forces it to eject, so that's a little
different.)

> To me, the Windows concept of a left mouse button that just does it
> and right mouse button that brings up a menu makes a whole lot of
> sense, but then the Mac only had one mouse button.

I'm not sure, but I think context menus like you're talking about
might not have been invented when the Mac came out. On the other
hand, I saw someone from Apple who made a good point about their
menu system vs. some other menu systems: Apple's menus are all
always right across the very top of the screen, and never within a
window. The genius of this is that you can whiz your mouse up
there and slam it against the top of the display, which means
that you only have to be accurate in one dimension (horizontally).
Whereas, with context menus and menus that appear within an app's
window, you have to be accurate in the vertical dimension as well.

Anyway, Apple clearly did one button to make things simple. I think
most mice that existed at the time the Mac was designed were at least
3 buttons, if not more in some cases. With 3 buttons, it's fairly
easy to get things mixed up, so they wanted to make things simple.
Probably going to just one was an overreaction, but that's what they
did. The biggest disaster in this area, though, is double clicking.
On an icon, double click causes the icon to perform an action (like
opening a folder or an application), but on other things like buttons,
single click means to do the action associated with the thing (press
the button, select the menu option). Maybe it wouldn't be so bad
if it were evenly applied and consistent, but double clicking is
anything but. I have a friend who still double clicks links on web
pages despite having had a computer for several years now...

- Logan
Anonymous
September 8, 2004 9:48:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Wed, 08 Sep 2004 17:48:42 GMT, lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com suggested:
: Mike Rivers wrote:
:> Doesn't this go all the way back to the floppy disk? I seem to
:> remember having to click on something to eject the floppy (there was
:> no mechanical button an a Mack floppy drive) but I don't remember
:> dragging the floppy icon to the trash can.
:
: I believe there have always been two ways to do it. You can either
: click on the disk icon to select it, and then select Eject from the
: drop-down menu (or hit Apple-E), or you can drag to the trash.
: So theoretically you could use a Mac for years and years and never
: know or care about trash-means-eject. But most people end up
: using it just because it's quicker.

The problem with using Eject from the menu was that it would leave a ghost
icon of the disk on the desktop, and then the user would accidentally
click on it and then the system would demand that the disk be reinserted.
In a classroom environment this was a problem, because the floppy may have
already left the room with a student from a previous class, and then you
had to cancel out of a bunch of dialogs.

--
agreenbu @ nyx . net andrew michael greenburg
Anonymous
September 8, 2004 10:42:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< Doesn't this go all the way back to the floppy disk? I seem to
remember having to click on something to eject the floppy (there was
no mechanical button an a Mack floppy drive) but I don't remember
dragging the floppy icon to the trash can. >>

Command-E would do it, or the end of a paper clip in the little hole.



Scott Fraser
Anonymous
September 8, 2004 11:06:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Greg Taylor wrote:

> These days Macs can be easily fitted with two button mice and, depending

When I started working on a Mac, I got a two-button wheel mouse and
plugged it in. Then, since I use the mouse with my left hand, I
started searching for the control panel thingy that lets me switch
it to left-handed mode, and I search quite a while and never could
find it. I was frustrated and started wondering how Apple, of all
people, could've left out something so amazingly obvious.

Then a thought occurred to me: oh yeah, you don't exactly need to
reverse for the buttons if you just have one button, do you? ;-)

- Logan
!