Firewire, Hot Swappable or not?

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I read much about firewire before deciding to move from USB to firewire
for my ourboard devices
Firewire was supposed to be hot patchable but my M-Audio 410 claims hot
patching thier firewire will damage and render inoperatable both my
ports and ext devices
connections MUST be made or unmade with the computer OFF
Is the hot swappable claim of firewire just ad copy ? what other
firewire devices forbid hot swapping?
thanks
George
40 answers Last reply
More about firewire swappable
  1. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    On my mac, if unplug or turn off a Firewire unit I get a message that
    something was turned off wrong and there might be damage to something...
    If I eject the hard drive like I would a CD the message doesn't come on.
    I think all the FW units are a little different.

    George wrote:
    > I read much about firewire before deciding to move from USB to firewire
    > for my ourboard devices
    > Firewire was supposed to be hot patchable but my M-Audio 410 claims hot
    > patching thier firewire will damage and render inoperatable both my
    > ports and ext devices
    > connections MUST be made or unmade with the computer OFF
    > Is the hot swappable claim of firewire just ad copy ? what other
    > firewire devices forbid hot swapping?
    > thanks
    > George
  2. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    In article <g.p.gleason-520F49.09312528082004@netnews.worldnet.att.net> g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net writes:

    > I read much about firewire before deciding to move from USB to firewire
    > for my ourboard devices
    > Firewire was supposed to be hot patchable but my M-Audio 410 claims hot
    > patching thier firewire will damage and render inoperatable both my
    > ports and ext devices
    > connections MUST be made or unmade with the computer OFF

    I think it depends on how powering is handled. Data is hot-swappable,
    and because they push the technology heavily for disk drives and video
    cameras, I suppose those are designed so they can be yanked and
    plugged without damage.

    Something like an audio interface generally has no compelling need to
    be hot-swapped, so maybe they just didn't bother with taking care of
    that end of the business in hardware, but dealt with it in software
    (the documentation).

    I'd trust what the manual for the Firewire M-410 says.

    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
    However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
    lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
    you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
    and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
  3. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    In article <10j1amfbcv3jd20@corp.supernews.com>, Danny <Keep@Your.com>
    wrote:

    > On my mac, if unplug or turn off a Firewire unit I get a message that
    > something was turned off wrong and there might be damage to something...
    > If I eject the hard drive like I would a CD the message doesn't come on.
    > I think all the FW units are a little different.

    IEEE1394 standard specifies that devices are to be hot pluggeable.
    The errror message above says that the computer cannot guarantee that
    all changed data has been written to the removeable device before you
    unplugged it. This is software only, or data. There is no damage to
    hardware.

    HTH

    Marc

    --
    Marc Heusser
    (remove the obvious: CHEERS and MERICAL...until end to reply via email)
  4. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    Marc Heusser wrote:


    >
    > IEEE1394 standard specifies that devices are to be hot pluggeable.
    > The errror message above says that the computer cannot guarantee that
    > all changed data has been written to the removeable device before you
    > unplugged it. This is software only, or data. There is no damage to
    > hardware.
    >
    > HTH
    >
    > Marc
    >

    Thanks for that. I thought so but you know I always swallow a rock when
    I unplug.
  5. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    In article <marc.heusser-AD28EE.11443629082004@individual.net>,
    marc.heusser@CHEERSheusser.comMERCIALSPAMMERS.invalid says...
    > IEEE1394 standard specifies that devices are to be hot pluggeable.
    > The errror message above says that the computer cannot guarantee that
    > all changed data has been written to the removeable device before you
    > unplugged it. This is software only, or data. There is no damage to
    > hardware.

    Maybe so, but there are apparently some bus-powered Firewire drives that
    can damage the Mac's hardware if you hot-plug them, despite the fact
    that FireWire was designed for that to work. There are signs everywhere
    at Berklee forbidding hot-plugging drives because of that.

    --
    Jay Levitt |
    Wellesley, MA | Hi!
    Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
    http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?
  6. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    << I thought so but you know I always swallow a rock when
    I unplug. >>

    With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so that the
    FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After that, unplug at
    will.

    Scott Fraser
  7. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    In article <20040829132418.26080.00002864@mb-m28.aol.com> scotfraser@aol.com writes:

    > With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so that the
    > FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After that, unplug at
    > will.

    I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
    imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."


    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
    However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
    lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
    you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
    and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
  8. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    In article <znr1093804170k@trad>, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers)
    wrote:

    > In article <20040829132418.26080.00002864@mb-m28.aol.com> scotfraser@aol.com
    > writes:
    >
    > > With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so that the
    > > FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After that, unplug at
    > > will.
    >
    > I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
    > imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."
    >
    >
    I am going from now on assume that the devices are not hot swappable
    regardless of if I am warned or not
    Thanks guys
    G
  9. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    Mike rivers expressed:
    <<
    I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
    imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."
    >>


    The trash can icon turns into an eject icon if you get near it with a drive
    icon. If that still worries you, just select the icon of the drive you need to
    unmount and select eject from the file menu, or hit "command" E.

    Mac
  10. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    Mike Rivers wrote:
    > In article <20040829132418.26080.00002864@mb-m28.aol.com> scotfraser@aol.com writes:
    >
    >
    >>With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so that the
    >>FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After that, unplug at
    >>will.
    >
    >
    > I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
    > imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."


    That's windoze. Macs aren't that stupid.
  11. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:54:45 -0600, Danny <Keep@Your.com> wrote:

    >On my mac, if unplug or turn off a Firewire unit I get a message that
    >something was turned off wrong and there might be damage to something...
    >If I eject the hard drive like I would a CD the message doesn't come on.
    >I think all the FW units are a little different.

    Does it say physical damage might be done? Or that data buffers might
    be lost?

    CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
    "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
  12. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    Laurence Payne wrote:
    > On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:54:45 -0600, Danny <Keep@Your.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>On my mac, if unplug or turn off a Firewire unit I get a message that
    >>something was turned off wrong and there might be damage to something...
    >>If I eject the hard drive like I would a CD the message doesn't come on.
    >>I think all the FW units are a little different.
    >
    >
    > Does it say physical damage might be done? Or that data buffers might
    > be lost?
    >
    > CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
    > "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
    It says data might be lost... but it never is.
  13. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:54:45 -0600, Danny <Keep@Your.com> wrote:

    >On my mac, if unplug or turn off a Firewire unit I get a message that
    >something was turned off wrong and there might be damage to something...
    >If I eject the hard drive like I would a CD the message doesn't come on.
    >I think all the FW units are a little different.

    I've not used the external Firewire interfaces on my Mac G4 (yet) but, I just
    got an external DVD combo drive for my PC. The manual states, "you can unplug
    without fear as long as your not writing to, or reading from the drive." Really
    has no pressing to your question, I just wanted to throw in some PC info just
    for the heck of it.
  14. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    << > With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so that
    the
    > FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After that, unplug at
    > will.>

    <I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
    imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."
    >>

    It's a Mac thing. The way you unmount a drive or eject a disk is to drag its
    icon to the trash. Also, any data item sitting in the trash can be retrieved up
    until you intentionally empty the trash. It's a Mac thing.


    Scott Fraser
  15. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    << I am going from now on assume that the devices are not hot swappable
    regardless of if I am warned or not >>

    But they are. I do it all the time. Dragging to the trash is just the Mac
    method of unmounting a drive.

    Scott Fraser
  16. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    > Maybe so, but there are apparently some bus-powered Firewire drives >that
    > can damage the Mac's hardware if you hot-plug them, despite the fact
    > that FireWire was designed for that to work. There are signs everywhere
    > at Berklee forbidding hot-plugging drives because of that.


    There have been lots of documented cases of blown FW controllers on
    Mac G4's when "Hot Plugging". Some were probably ESD though.
  17. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    In article <20040829174239.24956.00001549@mb-m20.aol.com> mackerr@aol.compost writes:

    > The trash can icon turns into an eject icon if you get near it with a drive
    > icon. If that still worries you, just select the icon of the drive you need to
    > unmount and select eject from the file menu, or hit "command" E.

    Thanks for the explanation. I'm so non-iconic I probably never would
    have figured that out even if I saw it. On my first excursion on a
    Mac, we were working with a Dyaxis system and needed more disk space,
    so I figured that dragging files to the trash can would delete them,
    but the disk was still full no matter how much trash I took out.
    Finaly someone told me that I had to EMPTY the trash can before the
    files were really deleted. I probably never would have figured that
    out either.

    Where do people learn this stuff?

    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
    However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
    lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
    you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
    and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
  18. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    In article <znr1093827829k@trad>, Mike Rivers <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote:
    >
    >In article <20040829174239.24956.00001549@mb-m20.aol.com> mackerr@aol.compost writes:
    >
    >> The trash can icon turns into an eject icon if you get near it with a drive
    >> icon. If that still worries you, just select the icon of the drive you need to
    >> unmount and select eject from the file menu, or hit "command" E.
    >
    >Thanks for the explanation. I'm so non-iconic I probably never would
    >have figured that out even if I saw it. On my first excursion on a
    >Mac, we were working with a Dyaxis system and needed more disk space,
    >so I figured that dragging files to the trash can would delete them,
    >but the disk was still full no matter how much trash I took out.
    >Finaly someone told me that I had to EMPTY the trash can before the
    >files were really deleted. I probably never would have figured that
    >out either.

    On the Xerox Star, the first commercial machine with a GUI and the place
    where Apple got the notion of the trashcan, there is also a Jesus icon which
    can be used to resurrect dead files.

    I think the whole thing is very counterintuitive, but this isn't really
    the place to point out why I hate GUIs so much.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  19. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    In article <96mdneuaYJv4Ja_cRVn-gg@omsoft.com> nopsam@nospam.net writes:

    > >>With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash

    > > I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
    > > imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."

    > That's windoze. Macs aren't that stupid.

    Or maybe Mac users have a better imagination. When I want to get rid
    of something physical, I put it in the trash. I have (more often than
    I'd like to admit) occasionally rooted through the trash can to
    retrieve something, usually a piece of paper. But I can't count on
    anything being there or being retrievable. Ever try to read through a
    cup full of coffee grounds?


    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
    However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
    lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
    you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
    and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
  20. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    scotfraser@aol.com (ScotFraser) wrote in message news:<20040830002741.05775.00004473@mb-m05.aol.com>...

    <SNIP>

    It's a Mac thing.
    >
    >
    > Scott Fraser

    Sort of like Volkswagens, right?

    My keyboard player has this theory that there is a high rate of
    corollation between people that buy Macs and Volkswagen Jettas and
    GTi's.

    Analogeezer
  21. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    Mike Rivers wrote:

    > But I can't count on anything being there or being retrievable. Ever
    > try to read through a cup full of coffee grounds?


    Heck, haven't you ever retrieved the grounds *and* the newspaper because
    you were out of coffee?


    > -- I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com) However, until the
    > spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked
    > from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret
    > decoder ring and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
  22. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    c'mon, guys,

    Windows took a cue from Mac years ago and created the Eco-Friendly Recycle
    Bin. Now, we have the same basic thing as the MacTrashcan. Adding Norton
    SystemWorks gives another layer of protection, as NSW can 'protect' the
    RecycleBin so even after you empty the RB, NSW holds on to it for a
    user-specified period of time before actually deleting it- kinda like taking
    the recycling to the curb, you need to wait for the trash men to come pick
    it up.

    As far as the 1394 thing with PCs, it's all HotSwap, too. Some devices,
    like harddrives, use Delayed Write or write buffering, which can give an
    error if you unplug while it's still waiting to dump to the disk, but other
    than that, it's all good.

    and, yes, i have had to read through grinds- it's lame and I hate it.

    Be well


    "Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
    news:znr1093871818k@trad...
    >
    > In article <96mdneuaYJv4Ja_cRVn-gg@omsoft.com> nopsam@nospam.net writes:
    >
    > > >>With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash
    >
    > > > I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
    > > > imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."
    >
    > > That's windoze. Macs aren't that stupid.
    >
    > Or maybe Mac users have a better imagination. When I want to get rid
    > of something physical, I put it in the trash. I have (more often than
    > I'd like to admit) occasionally rooted through the trash can to
    > retrieve something, usually a piece of paper. But I can't count on
    > anything being there or being retrievable. Ever try to read through a
    > cup full of coffee grounds?
    >
    >
    > --
    > I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
    > However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
    > lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
    > you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
    > and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
  23. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    George wrote:

    > (Mike Rivers) wrote:

    > > scotfraser@aol.comedy writes:

    > > > With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so
    > > > that the FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After
    > > > that, unplug at will.

    > > I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
    > > imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."

    <To Mike: I/we am/are telling you differently.>

    > I am going from now on assume that the devices are not hot swappable
    > regardless of if I am warned or not

    It doesn't not mean under Mac OS what Mike is thinking it means from his
    Wintel viewpoint. It means dismount the drive or device in question, so
    that the system knows not to expect it there next time the sys looks
    around to see what's hooked up.

    You may do this with total impunity; it does not erase anything at all
    from your drive. If you do not do this your Mac may become confused, and
    shortly thereafter, you, too, may become confused. This will lead to a
    reboot.

    --
    ha
  24. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    Jay Levitt wrote:

    > Maybe so, but there are apparently some bus-powered Firewire drives that
    > can damage the Mac's hardware if you hot-plug them, despite the fact
    > that FireWire was designed for that to work. There are signs everywhere
    > at Berklee forbidding hot-plugging drives because of that.

    There was a string of Mac laptops, including TiBooks like mine, that
    suffered from a FW defect, and that was the source of the blown busses.
    It wasn't th fault of the drive, it was Apple's fault. Beyond a certain
    date of manufacture one needn't worry about this, as eventually the
    bitching got to Apple's brain, even as the warranty fixes impacted
    Apple's bottom line, and action was taken to fix the buss. I waited to
    buy my TiBook until the last "still boots OS9" 'books were near their
    end-of-(sales)-life.

    --
    ha
  25. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    << Ever try to read through a
    cup full of coffee grounds? >>

    I can attest that magnetic tape is playable through a large qualtity of coffee
    grounds & old stale milk.


    Scott Fraser
  26. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    In article <20040830154916.09145.00002634@mb-m01.aol.com> scotfraser@aol.com writes:

    > I can attest that magnetic tape is playable through a large qualtity of coffee
    > grounds & old stale milk.

    Oh, so you've eaten breakfast over an open box of tape, too?

    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
    However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
    lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
    you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
    and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
  27. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    Analogeezer posited:
    <<
    Sort of like Volkswagens, right?

    My keyboard player has this theory that there is a high rate of
    corollation between people that buy Macs and Volkswagen Jettas and
    GTi's.

    Analogeezer >>


    As the owner at various times of 3 VW's and 2 Audi's and 6 Macs I can't
    disagree. :)

    Mac Kerr
  28. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    Mike Rivers wrote:

    > In article <20040829174239.24956.00001549@mb-m20.aol.com> mackerr@aol.compost writes:
    >
    >
    >>The trash can icon turns into an eject icon if you get near it with a drive
    >>icon. If that still worries you, just select the icon of the drive you need to
    >>unmount and select eject from the file menu, or hit "command" E.
    >
    >
    > Thanks for the explanation. I'm so non-iconic I probably never would
    > have figured that out even if I saw it. On my first excursion on a
    > Mac, we were working with a Dyaxis system and needed more disk space,
    > so I figured that dragging files to the trash can would delete them,
    > but the disk was still full no matter how much trash I took out.
    > Finaly someone told me that I had to EMPTY the trash can before the
    > files were really deleted. I probably never would have figured that
    > out either.
    >
    > Where do people learn this stuff?
    >

    From Lieber and Stoller, via the Coasters ( yakkety yak - don't
    talk back ) :)

    > --
    > I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
    > However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
    > lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
    > you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
    > and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

    --
    Les Cargill
  29. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    Dragging a drive to the trash is the same as selecting 'eject' from the
    Finder. Dragging the contents of the drive to the trash would 'erase
    everything'. I wouldn't recommend dragging your sytem drive icon to
    the trash. I haven't tried it, but idoesn't sound like a good thing to
    do.

    Norm!!


    In article <znr1093804170k@trad>, Mike Rivers <mrivers@d-and-d.com>
    wrote:

    > In article <20040829132418.26080.00002864@mb-m28.aol.com> scotfraser@aol.com
    > writes:
    >
    > > With Macs, you have to drag the icon of that drive to the trash so that the
    > > FireWire bus will not expect it to be there anymore. After that, unplug at
    > > will.
    >
    > I'd sure be afraid to do that (until someone told me otherwise). In my
    > imagination, that means "erase everything on the drive."
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
    > However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
    > lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
    > you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
    > and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
  30. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    In article <20040830210115.16860.00002697@mb-m20.aol.com>, MacKerr
    <mackerr@aol.compost> wrote:

    > Analogeezer posited:
    > <<
    > Sort of like Volkswagens, right?
    >
    > My keyboard player has this theory that there is a high rate of
    > corollation between people that buy Macs and Volkswagen Jettas and
    > GTi's.
    >
    > Analogeezer >>


    >
    > As the owner at various times of 3 VW's and 2 Audi's and 6 Macs I can't
    > disagree. :)
    >
    > Mac Kerr
    Hey there's no crime in buying quality items.

    Norm!!
  31. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    Norm!! wrote:
    > I wouldn't recommend dragging your sytem drive icon to
    > the trash. I haven't tried it, but idoesn't sound like a good thing to
    > do.

    Nothing much. Here's a picture:
    ____________________________________________________________
    /____________________________________________________________\
    | |
    | : / : The disk "<diskname>" is in use and could not be |
    | < ejected. |
    | \___/ |
    | Try quitting applications and try again. |
    | ____ |
    | (_OK_) |
    \____________________________________________________________/

    I don't think it's going to work no matter how many applications
    you try quitting, though...

    - Logan
  32. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    In article <070920041809129694%Thebigonion@plunger.adj> Thebigonion@plunger.adj writes:

    > Dragging a drive to the trash is the same as selecting 'eject' from the
    > Finder.

    I've gathered that. But how are you supposed to learn this fact?


    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
    However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
    lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
    you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
    and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
  33. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    Mike Rivers wrote:

    > In article <070920041809129694%Thebigonion@plunger.adj> Thebigonion@plunger.adj writes:

    >>Dragging a drive to the trash is the same as selecting 'eject' from the
    >>Finder.

    > I've gathered that. But how are you supposed to learn this fact?

    Story I've heard (possibly apocryphal) is the whole trash-means-eject
    concept came about pretty much accidentally. Supposedly, in early
    versions of the Macintosh (before it was ever released as a product),
    things worked more sensibly: to eject a disk, you'd click once on
    the disk icon to select it and then do some sort of operation to
    eject it (like choose "eject" from the pull-down menu). This would
    leave you with a "dead" icon on the desktop, so you'd want to get
    rid of the dead icon, and you'd drag it to the trash.

    However, when they did user testing to see how well people liked this
    way of doing things, they found that the users hated it because they
    perceived the menu option thing as a needless step and a waste of
    time. So they simplified the process by making that step unnecessary
    and making drag to trash mean eject.

    Unfortunately, this really goes against the whole idea of making things
    intuitive. Apple does a good job, a lot of the time, of not making
    arbitrary things that you "just have to know", and that seems to be a
    big priority for them, but sometimes they just totally throw that out
    the window and do something bizarre like this.

    It's one of those things that actually makes sense once you know the
    interesting little historical tidbit behind it, but before that it
    just seems totally random. In that sense, it's no better than the
    original of the name of the Unix command "grep". There was a text
    editor where the "g" command would do something globally (i.e. for
    every line of text), and one thing you could do is specify a pattern
    to check every line for, and the pattern is called a "regular
    expression" (after regular languages, which of course *everyone*
    knows about if they took a theory of computation class in college,
    right?), and then once you have applied a RE to your g, you can do
    "p" to print the lines that the RE matched. The help file summarized
    this as g/RE/p (because regular expressions are traditionally
    surrounded by slashes), so naturally the word "grep" means "search
    a file for lines that match a pattern". Except that you would never
    in a million years guess that "grep" is the right command to do
    what you want if that's what you wanted to do and all you had is
    a list of commands. Trash-means-eject isn't quite as convoluted
    a story as that, but it's almost equally hard to guess, if not
    harder since you would quickly conclude it's best to NOT experiment
    by dragging things into the trash, since that destroys things.

    Now, if you want to have an intuitive interface for ejecting a disk,
    I personally think there should be a little boot that you can drag
    onto the disk. When you let go, it kicks the disk out, preferably
    with a nice stress-relieving animation.

    - Logan
  34. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    In article <OVB%c.426$FV4.383@fe2.texas.rr.com> lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com writes:

    > Now, if you want to have an intuitive interface for ejecting a disk,
    > I personally think there should be a little boot that you can drag
    > onto the disk. When you let go, it kicks the disk out, preferably
    > with a nice stress-relieving animation.

    Doesn't this go all the way back to the floppy disk? I seem to
    remember having to click on something to eject the floppy (there was
    no mechanical button an a Mack floppy drive) but I don't remember
    dragging the floppy icon to the trash can.

    To me, the Windows concept of a left mouse button that just does it
    and right mouse button that brings up a menu makes a whole lot of
    sense, but then the Mac only had one mouse button.

    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
    However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
    lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
    you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
    and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
  35. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    Mike Rivers wrote:

    > To me, the Windows concept of a left mouse button that just does it
    > and right mouse button that brings up a menu makes a whole lot of
    > sense, but then the Mac only had one mouse button.


    The Right button Mac equivalent is control-click, or frequently just
    hold the button for 1/2 sec, which has no windoze equivalent.

    My Mac, however, has a Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical, the best thing
    Microsoft ever made (incl. the X-Box). I too like right-clicks and the
    wheel and its double-click feature.
  36. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    These days Macs can be easily fitted with two button mice and, depending
    on the manufacturer and drivers provided, the right button can be
    customized to work much the same way it does in a windows environment.

    In Mac OSX if you drag a storage device (hard drive, floppy, etc.) or
    network drive to the trash can the trash can icon will change to that of
    the standard eject symbol to verify that you are really ejecting or
    unmounting that device/drive rather than erasing it.

    Mike Rivers wrote:
    > In article <OVB%c.426$FV4.383@fe2.texas.rr.com> lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com writes:
    >
    >
    >>Now, if you want to have an intuitive interface for ejecting a disk,
    >>I personally think there should be a little boot that you can drag
    >>onto the disk. When you let go, it kicks the disk out, preferably
    >>with a nice stress-relieving animation.
    >
    >
    > Doesn't this go all the way back to the floppy disk? I seem to
    > remember having to click on something to eject the floppy (there was
    > no mechanical button an a Mack floppy drive) but I don't remember
    > dragging the floppy icon to the trash can.
    >
    > To me, the Windows concept of a left mouse button that just does it
    > and right mouse button that brings up a menu makes a whole lot of
    > sense, but then the Mac only had one mouse button...
  37. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    Mike Rivers wrote:
    > Doesn't this go all the way back to the floppy disk? I seem to
    > remember having to click on something to eject the floppy (there was
    > no mechanical button an a Mack floppy drive) but I don't remember
    > dragging the floppy icon to the trash can.

    I believe there have always been two ways to do it. You can either
    click on the disk icon to select it, and then select Eject from the
    drop-down menu (or hit Apple-E), or you can drag to the trash.
    So theoretically you could use a Mac for years and years and never
    know or care about trash-means-eject. But most people end up
    using it just because it's quicker.

    (I think you could also do Shift-Apple-1 to eject the first floppy,
    but I think this actually forces it to eject, so that's a little
    different.)

    > To me, the Windows concept of a left mouse button that just does it
    > and right mouse button that brings up a menu makes a whole lot of
    > sense, but then the Mac only had one mouse button.

    I'm not sure, but I think context menus like you're talking about
    might not have been invented when the Mac came out. On the other
    hand, I saw someone from Apple who made a good point about their
    menu system vs. some other menu systems: Apple's menus are all
    always right across the very top of the screen, and never within a
    window. The genius of this is that you can whiz your mouse up
    there and slam it against the top of the display, which means
    that you only have to be accurate in one dimension (horizontally).
    Whereas, with context menus and menus that appear within an app's
    window, you have to be accurate in the vertical dimension as well.

    Anyway, Apple clearly did one button to make things simple. I think
    most mice that existed at the time the Mac was designed were at least
    3 buttons, if not more in some cases. With 3 buttons, it's fairly
    easy to get things mixed up, so they wanted to make things simple.
    Probably going to just one was an overreaction, but that's what they
    did. The biggest disaster in this area, though, is double clicking.
    On an icon, double click causes the icon to perform an action (like
    opening a folder or an application), but on other things like buttons,
    single click means to do the action associated with the thing (press
    the button, select the menu option). Maybe it wouldn't be so bad
    if it were evenly applied and consistent, but double clicking is
    anything but. I have a friend who still double clicks links on web
    pages despite having had a computer for several years now...

    - Logan
  38. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    Wed, 08 Sep 2004 17:48:42 GMT, lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com suggested:
    : Mike Rivers wrote:
    :> Doesn't this go all the way back to the floppy disk? I seem to
    :> remember having to click on something to eject the floppy (there was
    :> no mechanical button an a Mack floppy drive) but I don't remember
    :> dragging the floppy icon to the trash can.
    :
    : I believe there have always been two ways to do it. You can either
    : click on the disk icon to select it, and then select Eject from the
    : drop-down menu (or hit Apple-E), or you can drag to the trash.
    : So theoretically you could use a Mac for years and years and never
    : know or care about trash-means-eject. But most people end up
    : using it just because it's quicker.

    The problem with using Eject from the menu was that it would leave a ghost
    icon of the disk on the desktop, and then the user would accidentally
    click on it and then the system would demand that the disk be reinserted.
    In a classroom environment this was a problem, because the floppy may have
    already left the room with a student from a previous class, and then you
    had to cancel out of a bunch of dialogs.

    --
    agreenbu @ nyx . net andrew michael greenburg
  39. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    << Doesn't this go all the way back to the floppy disk? I seem to
    remember having to click on something to eject the floppy (there was
    no mechanical button an a Mack floppy drive) but I don't remember
    dragging the floppy icon to the trash can. >>

    Command-E would do it, or the end of a paper clip in the little hole.


    Scott Fraser
  40. Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

    Greg Taylor wrote:

    > These days Macs can be easily fitted with two button mice and, depending

    When I started working on a Mac, I got a two-button wheel mouse and
    plugged it in. Then, since I use the mouse with my left hand, I
    started searching for the control panel thingy that lets me switch
    it to left-handed mode, and I search quite a while and never could
    find it. I was frustrated and started wondering how Apple, of all
    people, could've left out something so amazingly obvious.

    Then a thought occurred to me: oh yeah, you don't exactly need to
    reverse for the buttons if you just have one button, do you? ;-)

    - Logan
Ask a new question

Read More

Pro Audio Firewire Audio