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Lead boost for lead guitar

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August 28, 2004 7:29:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hi,
I am a guitarist and am in charge of the pa in my band.
I have several ways to boost my signal for my solos, depending on
which guitar rig I'm using.
I'm just wondering, in most live rock applications, is it more common
for the guitarist to boost for solos himself or for the sound-person
to bump up the fader appropriately.
What say you all?

Thank you,
Shawn

More about : lead boost lead guitar

Anonymous
August 28, 2004 10:23:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Shawn@Thrillofthechase.biz (Shawn) writes:
> Hi,
> I am a guitarist and am in charge of the pa in my band.
> I have several ways to boost my signal for my solos, depending on
> which guitar rig I'm using.
> I'm just wondering, in most live rock applications, is it more common
> for the guitarist to boost for solos himself or for the sound-person
> to bump up the fader appropriately.
> What say you all?

Our guitarist handles it himself. Of course if we have FOH guy,
they'll hopefually make adjustments in case of over/under correction,
but when we do have a FOH person, experience dictates that there's
enough variability within the field in terms of professionalism and
attention to detail, that one simply cannot expect all sound men to be
riding faders or even paying close attention.

Best Regards,
--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | http://www.toddh.net/
X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/
/ \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | "4 lines suffice."
Anonymous
August 28, 2004 10:50:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Shawn <Shawn@Thrillofthechase.biz> wrote:
>I'm jvst wondering, in most live rock applications, is it more common
>for the gvitarist to boost for solos himself or for the sovnd-person
>to bvmp vp the fader appropriately.
>What say yov all?

Is the sovnd man part of yovr band, someone who is familiar with all yovr
arrangements, and someone yov tovr with? Or is he jvst the gvy the vnion
sent over that night?

Are yov working in a small clvb where most of the gvitar sovnd is from the
backline and there's not mvch gvitar in the PA, or are yov working a big
stadivm gig where everything is in the mains?

Are yov in a position where yov can actvally hear the hall balances from
on stage? This is often the case with acovstic acts, and every once in
a while the case for electric acts in small clvbs, bvt it's vsvally not
the case in any large hall or any place where yov're very dependant on
monitors.
--scott
--
"C'est vn Nagra. C'est svisse, et tres, tres precis."
Related resources
August 29, 2004 12:50:42 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Shawn wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I am a guitarist and am in charge of the pa in my band.
> I have several ways to boost my signal for my solos, depending on
> which guitar rig I'm using.
> I'm just wondering, in most live rock applications, is it more common
> for the guitarist to boost for solos himself or for the sound-person
> to bump up the fader appropriately.
> What say you all?
>
> Thank you,
> Shawn

What do you do in practice? If you can successfully manage your rhythm
and lead volumes there, there is no need for the sound man to do so
unless he follows the band on the faders to keep the house mix balanced
(most don't do much after sound check)
Anonymous
August 29, 2004 3:03:15 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

* Shawn <Shawn@Thrillofthechase.biz>:
> I am a guitarist and am in charge of the pa in my band.
> I have several ways to boost my signal for my solos, depending on
> which guitar rig I'm using.
> I'm just wondering, in most live rock applications, is it more common
> for the guitarist to boost for solos himself or for the sound-person
> to bump up the fader appropriately.
> What say you all?

Worst situation:
FOH guy is sleeping all the time and has no musical understanding to
feel solos upfront coming (or knows the songs), and guitarist has no
clue how to boost properly, so it always comes out too loud on FOH.
Pain.

Better:
Guitarist doesn't boost himself, but good FOH guy does the work.
Only working when you have a good FOH crew. But if FOH guy is
troubleshooting something when solos are on, solos might "get lost".

Best:
Good FOH guy, but also good guitarist who has arranged with FOH guy
how and how much to boost for solos so FOH guy usually doesn't have
to change things and it "just works out".

After all - depending on music style - arrangement can and does make
a big difference. Listen to some Jazz music... nobody plays
significantly louder when soloing... the rest of the ensemble just
takes their volume back. :-)


Best regards,
Daniel (FOH freelancer)
August 29, 2004 3:01:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

This is just my opinion from playing guitar in bands and running sound
systems for over thirty years, and nothing more.

This is not being said to cause problems or to say you are incompetent.
I am sure you are a competent guitarist because you are still willing to
learn to become a better musican/performer.

Counting on someone else to handle the band's dynamics is a very big
mistake! The band members need to know how to handle their part in the
mix.

The FOH person is a sound reinforcement person, not a mixing engineer.
Their job is to keep feedback and other nasty things each venue brings
with it, from affecting the band's sound.

If your band ends up playing though someone else's pa and they don't let
anyone touch their gear (understandably) you are up the creek with out a
paddle.

Spend the time to "hear" the band's mix.

Use a boost box preset once you find the dif in levels that you like.

Could you imagine some great artist asking someone else what shade of
what color I should paint here? Treat you music's dynamics the same as
you do your choice of upstroke/downstroke of a chord.

In the end, you are responsible for your sound in the band, not the pa
person. The pa is used to reinforce the music, not create the music.


> Shawn wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>>I am a guitarist and am in charge of the pa in my band.
>>I have several ways to boost my signal for my solos, depending on
>>which guitar rig I'm using.
>>I'm just wondering, in most live rock applications, is it more common
>>for the guitarist to boost for solos himself or for the sound-person
>>to bump up the fader appropriately.
>>What say you all?
>>
>>Thank you,
>>Shawn
>
>
> What do you do in practice? If you can successfully manage your rhythm
> and lead volumes there, there is no need for the sound man to do so
> unless he follows the band on the faders to keep the house mix balanced
> (most don't do much after sound check)
Anonymous
August 29, 2004 5:43:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Unless you have your own soundman, turn up for your solos! There is
no way some guy who doesn't know your music is going to know when to
turn you up. Otherwise you will get mighty tired of having the
audience not hear the first few bars of every solo... and that assumes
that the guy behind the board is even paying attention.

If you have your own soundman mixing, it's a different story, but even
then I turn up a little for solos, just so the people onstage
(including myself) can hear..

Al

On 28 Aug 2004 15:29:02 -0700, Shawn@Thrillofthechase.biz (Shawn)
wrote:

>Hi,
>I am a guitarist and am in charge of the pa in my band.
>I have several ways to boost my signal for my solos, depending on
>which guitar rig I'm using.
>I'm just wondering, in most live rock applications, is it more common
>for the guitarist to boost for solos himself or for the sound-person
>to bump up the fader appropriately.
>What say you all?
>
>Thank you,
>Shawn
Anonymous
August 29, 2004 5:46:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

One of the more irrating things to me is playing somewhere where the
sound guy who has never heard the band before, considers himself a
producer -- adding reverb and/or delay to solos and vocals, etc.
Making artistic decisions should be left up to the artists in a live
situation, unless it is worked out beforehand.

(And what's up with mixing the kick drum so damn loud? )

Al

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 11:01:46 -0500, j <cty80341@centurytel.net> wrote:

>This is just my opinion from playing guitar in bands and running sound
>systems for over thirty years, and nothing more.
>
>This is not being said to cause problems or to say you are incompetent.
>I am sure you are a competent guitarist because you are still willing to
>learn to become a better musican/performer.
>
>Counting on someone else to handle the band's dynamics is a very big
>mistake! The band members need to know how to handle their part in the
>mix.
>
>The FOH person is a sound reinforcement person, not a mixing engineer.
>Their job is to keep feedback and other nasty things each venue brings
>with it, from affecting the band's sound.
>
>If your band ends up playing though someone else's pa and they don't let
>anyone touch their gear (understandably) you are up the creek with out a
>paddle.
>
>Spend the time to "hear" the band's mix.
>
>Use a boost box preset once you find the dif in levels that you like.
>
>Could you imagine some great artist asking someone else what shade of
>what color I should paint here? Treat you music's dynamics the same as
>you do your choice of upstroke/downstroke of a chord.
>
>In the end, you are responsible for your sound in the band, not the pa
>person. The pa is used to reinforce the music, not create the music.
>
>
>> Shawn wrote:
>>
>>>Hi,
>>>I am a guitarist and am in charge of the pa in my band.
>>>I have several ways to boost my signal for my solos, depending on
>>>which guitar rig I'm using.
>>>I'm just wondering, in most live rock applications, is it more common
>>>for the guitarist to boost for solos himself or for the sound-person
>>>to bump up the fader appropriately.
>>>What say you all?
>>>
>>>Thank you,
>>>Shawn
>>
>>
>> What do you do in practice? If you can successfully manage your rhythm
>> and lead volumes there, there is no need for the sound man to do so
>> unless he follows the band on the faders to keep the house mix balanced
>> (most don't do much after sound check)
Anonymous
August 29, 2004 6:40:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Shawn@Thrillofthechase.biz (Shawn)
>I am a guitarist and am in charge of the pa in my band.
>I have several ways to boost my signal for my solos, depending on
>which guitar rig I'm using.
>I'm just wondering, in most live rock applications, is it more common
>for the guitarist to boost for solos himself or for the sound-person
>to bump up the fader appropriately.
>What say you all?

A soloist should listen to the other players and blend (which could be be
a 3db boost for your solo - or not). That's what musicianship is about,
listening to each other and playing as one.

What the mixer has to do is a separate issue really, but the better the
band plays together the less work for the mixer to do riding faders. Still
there will be times when the mixer will have to boost solo levels even though
they are good on the stage for the band.

If your situation is playing guitar and mixing the band at the same time,
I would advise the "set it and forget it" approach. Get good vocal levels and
maybe a bit of kick in the PA, and then everyone practice playing group
dynamics, actually practice playing soft together, medium loud, very loud etc.
Trying to mix while you play is a recipe for sonic confusion.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Anonymous
August 29, 2004 6:40:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

willstg@aol.comnospam (WillStG) wrote in message news:<20040829104008.20545.00000004@mb-m06.aol.com>...
> > Shawn@Thrillofthechase.biz (Shawn)
> >I am a guitarist and am in charge of the pa in my band.
> >I have several ways to boost my signal for my solos, depending on
> >which guitar rig I'm using.
> >I'm just wondering, in most live rock applications, is it more common
> >for the guitarist to boost for solos himself or for the sound-person
> >to bump up the fader appropriately.
> >What say you all?

Just my two cents, every musician should have as much control over his
sound as possible on stage regardless of the level of show (bar gig
vs. stadium gig). A good FOH tech who knows your music is an awesome
person to have around, but depending on how often you gig and how much
you take in a dedicated FOH tech may not be practical. Relying on a
PA system and sound guy to boost lead guitar takes that decision out
of your control, and solos and boosting are an integral part of rock
composition. It's just too important to leave up to someone else. I
don't think I've ever seen a guitarist rely on a sound man to boost
solos without having some boost control themselves (distortion pedals,
wah pedals, boost pedals, etc.)

Carlos
Anonymous
August 29, 2004 8:09:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>
>This is just my opinion from playing guitar in bands and running sound
>systems for over thirty years, and nothing more.
>
>This is not being said to cause problems or to say you are incompetent.
>I am sure you are a competent guitarist because you are still willing to
>learn to become a better musican/performer.
>
>Counting on someone else to handle the band's dynamics is a very big
>mistake! The band members need to know how to handle their part in the
>mix.
>
>The FOH person is a sound reinforcement person, not a mixing engineer.

Fortunately or unfortunately alot of them like to mix. I've heard enough board
tapes.


>Their job is to keep feedback and other nasty things each venue brings
>with it, from affecting the band's sound.
>
>If your band ends up playing though someone else's pa and they don't let
>anyone touch their gear (understandably) you are up the creek with out a
>paddle.
>
>Spend the time to "hear" the band's mix.
>
>Use a boost box preset once you find the dif in levels that you like.
>
>Could you imagine some great artist asking someone else what shade of
>what color I should paint here? Treat you music's dynamics the same as
>you do your choice of upstroke/downstroke of a chord.
>
>In the end, you are responsible for your sound in the band, not the pa
>person. The pa is used to reinforce the music, not create the music.
>
>
>> Shawn wrote:
>>
>>>Hi,
>>>I am a guitarist and am in charge of the pa in my band.
>>>I have several ways to boost my signal for my solos, depending on
>>>which guitar rig I'm using.
>>>I'm just wondering, in most live rock applications, is it more common
>>>for the guitarist to boost for solos himself or for the sound-person
>>>to bump up the fader appropriately.
>>>What say you all?
>>>
>>>Thank you,
>>>Shawn
>>
>>
>> What do you do in practice? If you can successfully manage your rhythm
>> and lead volumes there, there is no need for the sound man to do so
>> unless he follows the band on the faders to keep the house mix balanced
>> (most don't do much after sound check)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Anonymous
August 29, 2004 8:15:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>>The FOH person is a sound reinforcement person, not a mixing engineer.
>

I wrote:

>Fortunately or unfortunately alot of them like to mix. I've heard enough
>board
>tapes.
>

I would add it is their job to mix at least on gigs I'm on...I just wish they
would leave me alone, I know where to play & not to play - but that's about my
ego. On an acoustic thing it's hard to get above the rest of the band when
soloing & filling - hopefully "your" FOH guy knows the tunes - if it's FOH guy
dujour, that's another story...a sheet with cues(Intro, solos, outros, etc)
doesn't hurt



>
>>Their job is to keep feedback and other nasty things each venue brings
>>with it, from affecting the band's sound.
>>
>>If your band ends up playing though someone else's pa and they don't let
>>anyone touch their gear (understandably) you are up the creek with out a
>>paddle.
>>
>>Spend the time to "hear" the band's mix.
>>
>>Use a boost box preset once you find the dif in levels that you like.
>>
>>Could you imagine some great artist asking someone else what shade of
>>what color I should paint here? Treat you music's dynamics the same as
>>you do your choice of upstroke/downstroke of a chord.
>>
>>In the end, you are responsible for your sound in the band, not the pa
>>person. The pa is used to reinforce the music, not create the music.
>>
>>
>>> Shawn wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>>I am a guitarist and am in charge of the pa in my band.
>>>>I have several ways to boost my signal for my solos, depending on
>>>>which guitar rig I'm using.
>>>>I'm just wondering, in most live rock applications, is it more common
>>>>for the guitarist to boost for solos himself or for the sound-person
>>>>to bump up the fader appropriately.
>>>>What say you all?
>>>>
>>>>Thank you,
>>>>Shawn
>>>
>>>
>>> What do you do in practice? If you can successfully manage your rhythm
>>> and lead volumes there, there is no need for the sound man to do so
>>> unless he follows the band on the faders to keep the house mix balanced
>>> (most don't do much after sound check)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





Me at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm
Anonymous
August 29, 2004 8:59:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< >The FOH person is a sound reinforcement person, not a mixing engineer. >>

The FOH person is very much a mixing engineer, but that doesn't mean the band
shouldn't provide all the dynamic moves.

Scott Fraser
Anonymous
August 29, 2004 9:08:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

j wrote:


> The FOH person is a sound reinforcement person, not a mixing engineer.
> Their job is to keep feedback and other nasty things each venue brings
> with it, from affecting the band's sound.

Bollocks. A feedback destroyer will do that for you. If a FOH engineer works
with the same band on aregular basis he becomes part of the band's product.

> If your band ends up playing though someone else's pa and they don't
> let anyone touch their gear (understandably) you are up the creek
> with out a paddle.
>
> Spend the time to "hear" the band's mix.
>
> Use a boost box preset once you find the dif in levels that you like.
>
> Could you imagine some great artist asking someone else what shade of
> what color I should paint here? Treat you music's dynamics the same
> as you do your choice of upstroke/downstroke of a chord.
>
> In the end, you are responsible for your sound in the band, not the pa
> person. The pa is used to reinforce the music, not create the music.

Wrong. The musicians are responsible for musicianship - playing with and
listening to each other. The sound engineer makes that sound right for the
venue and the audience. It sounds like you've never had a good one.
August 29, 2004 9:08:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>A feedback destroyer will do that for you. If a FOH engineer works
> with the same band on aregular basis he becomes part of the band's product.
>

Even you agree that trusting your sound to a variable is not wise. Why
else would you include the word "IF".

There are more things than just feedback in dealing with the sound
coming through the FOH.

> Wrong. The musicians are responsible for musicianship - playing with and
> listening to each other.

And controlling the dynamics of their sound!

>The sound engineer makes that sound right for the
> venue and the audience.

Exactly what I said, their job is to mix it for the venue, not control
the band's dynamics. Their job is to nullify the acoustical drawbacks
of the venue. This includes many things other than just feedback.

It sounds like you've never had a good one.

I have had both good ones and bad ones, and a poorly mixed venue
reflects it back on the band. The good ones we had were paid the same
as the band members.

You refused to acknowledge what to do when the band's sound tech is not
allowed to touch the board, which will be the case at times.

The post was asking about how the best way to handle lead break volumes.
Are you saying the FOH should be the one in control of the dynamics of
the band then?

Stick with giving the guy a reason to go one way or another instead of
just saying I am wrong. The original poster is looking for pro/con of
different ideas to make his sound consistent every time he can.

If you believe the sound tech should handle the volume of the lead break
and not the guitarist, explain the benefits of this method in the post.

Or is it easier to just say I am wrong than to give the guy your reasons
based on your experience and knowledge?

The idea of this newsgroup is to help each other produce the best sound
we can. There is no right/wrong in trying to get better at our art!
Anonymous
August 29, 2004 9:08:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:08:57 +0100, "Tim S Kemp"
<news@timkemp.karoo.co.uk> wrote:

>j wrote:
>
>
>> The FOH person is a sound reinforcement person, not a mixing engineer.
>> Their job is to keep feedback and other nasty things each venue brings
>> with it, from affecting the band's sound.
>
>Bollocks. A feedback destroyer will do that for you. If a FOH engineer works
>with the same band on aregular basis he becomes part of the band's product.
>
>> If your band ends up playing though someone else's pa and they don't
>> let anyone touch their gear (understandably) you are up the creek
>> with out a paddle.
>>
>> Spend the time to "hear" the band's mix.
>>
>> Use a boost box preset once you find the dif in levels that you like.
>>
>> Could you imagine some great artist asking someone else what shade of
>> what color I should paint here? Treat you music's dynamics the same
>> as you do your choice of upstroke/downstroke of a chord.
>>
>> In the end, you are responsible for your sound in the band, not the pa
>> person. The pa is used to reinforce the music, not create the music.
>
>Wrong. The musicians are responsible for musicianship - playing with and
>listening to each other. The sound engineer makes that sound right for the
>venue and the audience. It sounds like you've never had a good one.

The soundman's job is to be unnoticable. Ideally the musicians should
be mixing themselves, and the PA should be transparent... so that
people are listening to music, not the soundman.
Anonymous
August 29, 2004 10:29:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

j wrote:

> You refused to acknowledge what to do when the band's sound tech is
> not allowed to touch the board, which will be the case at times.

Take your own and jack into the house board, which is what we do (and what I
often insist support acts do) - I will give the guest engineer a straight
feed bar limiters (and house EQ if wanted)

> The post was asking about how the best way to handle lead break
> volumes. Are you saying the FOH should be the one in control of the
> dynamics of the band then?

FOH need to have control of everything, FOH should understand the musicians
intentions and translate it into what should be coming out the system.

> If you believe the sound tech should handle the volume of the lead
> break and not the guitarist, explain the benefits of this method in
> the post.

Many guitarists just crank it to eleven at the break, which may not be right
for overall production. Buck stops at the FOH guy - he should make sure it's
the right level.

> Or is it easier to just say I am wrong than to give the guy your
> reasons based on your experience and knowledge?

You are wrong.

> The idea of this newsgroup is to help each other produce the best
> sound we can. There is no right/wrong in trying to get better at our
> art!

Art or science? Because audio engineering is a lot of both.


--
Snow cone? No no no - don't worry - it's lemon...
Anonymous
August 29, 2004 11:15:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> I'm just wondering, in most live rock applications, is it more common
> for the guitarist to boost for solos himself or for the sound-person
> to bump up the fader appropriately.
> What say you all?

IMO instrument control is as important as mic control.
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 12:58:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <15ab42ba.0408291151.18668f45@posting.google.com> infidell@aol.com writes:

> Just my two cents, every musician should have as much control over his
> sound as possible on stage regardless of the level of show (bar gig
> vs. stadium gig).

"musician" is the operative word here. Used to be that you could
depend on them to exercise the control they have. These days it seems
that a lot of them still haven't earned that right.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 3:15:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

playon wrote:
> One of the more irrating things to me is playing somewhere where the
> sound guy who has never heard the band before, considers himself a
> producer -- adding reverb and/or delay to solos and vocals, etc.
> Making artistic decisions should be left up to the artists in a live
> situation, unless it is worked out beforehand.

Make your wishes clear in advance.....
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 12:38:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

playon wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 23:15:19 +0100, "Tim S Kemp"
> <news@timkemp.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> playon wrote:
>>> One of the more irrating things to me is playing somewhere where the
>>> sound guy who has never heard the band before, considers himself a
>>> producer -- adding reverb and/or delay to solos and vocals, etc.
>>> Making artistic decisions should be left up to the artists in a live
>>> situation, unless it is worked out beforehand.
>>
>> Make your wishes clear in advance.....
>
> You mean like saying "please don't f*** with our music"?

No, like being specific. Your music may need sanitising if it's like most
of the dross that comes from bands with opinions beyond their talent.
--
Snow cone? No no no - don't worry - it's lemon...
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 1:07:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Shawn <Shawn@Thrillofthechase.biz> wrote:
>Snip
>> Is the sovnd man part of yovr band, someone who is familiar with all yovr
>> arrangements, and someone yov tovr with? Or is he jvst the gvy the vnion
>> sent over that night?
>
>Right now the sovnd-person is the drvmmer's girlfriend vntil she
>really gets a handle on it or we hire/find someone better. For right
>now we cannot afford to pay a "real" sovndman for most of ovr gigs.

Then definitely not, she shovld not be fiddling with the balances.

>> Are yov in a position where yov can actvally hear the hall balances from
>> on stage?
>
>Not vsvally.

Then yov aren't in a position where yov shovld be fiddling with the balances
either.

Yov got trovble.
--scott


--
"C'est vn Nagra. C'est svisse, et tres, tres precis."
August 30, 2004 1:40:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <2a4e3021.0408281429.3f8c84bb@posting.google.com>,
Shawn@Thrillofthechase.biz says...
> Hi,
> I am a guitarist and am in charge of the pa in my band.
> I have several ways to boost my signal for my solos, depending on
> which guitar rig I'm using.
> I'm just wondering, in most live rock applications, is it more common
> for the guitarist to boost for solos himself or for the sound-person
> to bump up the fader appropriately.
> What say you all?
>
I am both, so I've seen it from both sides of the stage.
I think the musicians should be responsible for their dynamic
balance. However, the truth of the matter is that in the
rock field, most aren't even close to being that good, or even
that aware of their surroundings. So I've generally had to
ride gain somewhat, especially on the typical rock guitarist
that doesn't realize that their clean channel is actually
much louder than their distorted channel (the distortion fools
them into thinking it's loud, when it's not).
So I have to pay really close attention to the band, and
what their trying to accomplish musically, from behind the
FOH board.
Conversely, I am the guitarist in a prog/fusion band. When
we play out, most of the time we are at the mercy of the house
soundman, who doesn't have a clue what we're doing musically,
or who has the lead role at any given time. The worst part
is that I canNOT seem to get the f$%kers to LEAVE THE VOCAL
MICS ON, so the the first line of a verse is not missing! We
aren't that loud, so there's not enough bleed to worry about.
I try to get them to just get a decent rhythm balance,
where you can actually hear each instrument, and let us worry
about volume boosts for leads. In some videos I've seen they
completely bury the keys or rhythm guitar, and halfway through
a lead the volume jumps up from nowhere, from being turned off.
You're much better off if you control the dynamics yourself,
and let the sound crew simply amplify your efforts.
---Michael (of APP)...
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 7:13:35 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Michael" <ra3035@NOTfreescale.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b9cf85bd7fab86f9897c5@newshost...

<snip>

> I try to get them to just get a decent rhythm balance,
> where you can actually hear each instrument, and let us worry
> about volume boosts for leads. In some videos I've seen they
> completely bury the keys or rhythm guitar, and halfway through
> a lead the volume jumps up from nowhere, from being turned off.
> You're much better off if you control the dynamics yourself,
> and let the sound crew simply amplify your efforts.
> ---Michael (of APP)...

The "P" in AAPLS is for PROFESSIONAL....not "PUB BAND WEEKEND WARRIOR". For
a typical garage band (or even the weekend semi-pros), controlling your own
dynamics may make some sense unless you have a good sound mixer.

However, in the truly PROFESSIONAL world, the man (or woman) at the FOH desk
probably has as much or more creative input in the overall sound as any of
the musicians. The are also in a physical position to actually HEAR what
the audience is hearing and adjust things to make the perceived sound as
near perfect as possible. However good your monitor system is, , you do NOT
know what the audience is hearing--and what you DO hear on stage can give
you a very skewed impression. With the greatest respect, your "face
melting" solo guitar part that sounds great to you on stage may simply be
ear-melting screech in the audience when mixed with the other instruments.

....and that is something major to consider. A band tends to be a collection
of individual egos, each (understandably) most concerned about their own
performance. It's all to rare for band members to be sufficiently aware of
the OVERALL sound they are making together...and this is where a
professional sound man can make all the difference in the world.

The same thing applies to effects like reverb on voices or delays. A little
reverb at the right moment can make the difference between the pub amateur
sound and the "Pink Floyd World Tour" sound. (Okay, so I'm showing my age
but you see what I mean.) It's interesting you mention delays...for the
most part I'd use those as a "technical" adjustment to aid intelligibility
and clarity. The only one who CAN judge the need for those would be the guy
at the FOH position, likely after a good bit of walking the hall during
soundcheck.

Bob
Anonymous
August 30, 2004 11:22:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:13:35 +0100, "Bob Howes"
<bob.howes@btinternet.com> wrote:

>...and that is something major to consider. A band tends to be a collection
>of individual egos, each (understandably) most concerned about their own
>performance. It's all to rare for band members to be sufficiently aware of
>the OVERALL sound they are making together...and this is where a
>professional sound man can make all the difference in the world.

Is this REALLY the musical world we have created? Help!

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
Anonymous
August 31, 2004 1:37:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< bob.howes@btinternet.com >>
<< However, in the truly PROFESSIONAL world, the man (or woman) at the FOH desk
probably has as much or more creative input in the overall sound as any of
the musicians. The are also in a physical position to actually HEAR what
the audience is hearing and adjust things to make the perceived sound as
near perfect as possible. However good your monitor system is, , you do NOT
know what the audience is hearing--and what you DO hear on stage can give
you a very skewed impression. With the greatest respect, your "face
melting" solo guitar part that sounds great to you on stage may simply be
ear-melting screech in the audience when mixed with the other instruments. >>

Well, the trick on usenet is understanding what the situation of the
poster asking the question is. It is obvious that this is a mid level band,
they aren't playing arenas and haven't enough money to pay a crew or roadies
yet, nor have they impressed anyone who is trained enough for them to volunteer
for free. Sure, at some point they hopefully will aquire a soundman who can
add to the creative process. But until then, the band learning to play
together and controlling their own dynamics is going to be the best advice I
think, and even when they do get a soundperson it is just so much easier to mix
a group that listens to and plays with each other. (As opposed to just playing
at the same approximate moment in time... )

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Anonymous
September 3, 2004 2:48:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

playon wrote:

> The soundman's job is to be unnoticable. Ideally the musicians should
> be mixing themselves, and the PA should be transparent... so that
> people are listening to music, not the soundman.


I used to think the way that you do when I first started in this
business. Once I learned enough to start being creative with sound and
bands, that opinion dissapeared. The mix engineer should be as noticable
as the lead singer, the bass player, the drummer. When I am at a concert
and the band sounds like they're being mixed down in the control room
for their final CD master, I give props to the FOH guy. When I'm
listening to a show and the leads are missed, the bass is undefined, the
drums are flat and thin, I look back at the FOH guy and wonder why he's
not playing the gig tonight with the rest of the band.

Musicians don't mix themselves (unless they play bluegrass). Mixers mix
bands. Bands play music. Mixers blend it all together.
--
Joel Farris | Q: It reverses the logical flow of conversation.
twinkledust Designs | A: Why is top posting frowned upon?
http://twinkledust.com|
AIM chat: FarrisJoel | "John Kerry: A walking, talking contradiction"
Anonymous
September 3, 2004 2:59:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I have to disagree, here - I've heard lots of bands in many genre's mix
themselves. Quite honestly, on a live gig, the LAST thing I want is a
'creative soundman'. Your job is to make what's coming off the stage sound
its best, not to invent something other than what's coming off the stage.
Perhaps that's why they call it "Sound Reinforcement" instead of "Creative
Public Address"

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

"Joel Farris" <this.is.not@valid.address> wrote in message
news:srNZc.546274$Gx4.239715@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> playon wrote:
>
> > The soundman's job is to be unnoticable. Ideally the musicians should
> > be mixing themselves, and the PA should be transparent... so that
> > people are listening to music, not the soundman.
>
>
> I used to think the way that you do when I first started in this
> business. Once I learned enough to start being creative with sound and
> bands, that opinion dissapeared. The mix engineer should be as noticable
> as the lead singer, the bass player, the drummer. When I am at a concert
> and the band sounds like they're being mixed down in the control room
> for their final CD master, I give props to the FOH guy. When I'm
> listening to a show and the leads are missed, the bass is undefined, the
> drums are flat and thin, I look back at the FOH guy and wonder why he's
> not playing the gig tonight with the rest of the band.
>
> Musicians don't mix themselves (unless they play bluegrass). Mixers mix
> bands. Bands play music. Mixers blend it all together.
> --
> Joel Farris | Q: It reverses the logical flow of conversation.
> twinkledust Designs | A: Why is top posting frowned upon?
> http://twinkledust.com|
> AIM chat: FarrisJoel | "John Kerry: A walking, talking contradiction"
Anonymous
September 3, 2004 3:20:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>I have to disagree, here - I've heard lots of bands in many genre's mix
>themselves. Quite honestly, on a live gig, the LAST thing I want is a
>'creative soundman'. Your job is to make what's coming off the stage sound
>its best, not to invent something other than what's coming off the stage.
>Perhaps that's why they call it "Sound Reinforcement" instead of "Creative
>Public Address"

I'm gonna disagree with you Dave. Vocalist don't carry their own
compressors,reverb, delay, chorus..whatever with them. And they are on
stage..not a good placve to mix from. Most younger bands expecially have
little concept of a mix outside of what they hear in their rehearsal space. I
look at live mixing like Joel..I do a lot of studio mixing and the closer I can
get to that in a live setting the better everyone likes it..and I ask. I think
the reason most are shy of letting the FOH guy do his thing is that there are a
lot of them that don't do it very well.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637
Anonymous
September 3, 2004 4:19:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

* Dave Martin <dmainc@earthlink.net>:
> I have to disagree, here - I've heard lots of bands in many genre's mix
> themselves. Quite honestly, on a live gig, the LAST thing I want is a
> 'creative soundman'. Your job is to make what's coming off the stage sound
> its best, not to invent something other than what's coming off the stage.

You as a musician on-stage of anything larger than a garage have no clue
how your levels and sounds come together in a PA setup at all, in most
cases. Especially not in Rock & Pop.

Well, professionals get it. Amateur wannabe-pros still massage their
egos and piss off their audience with "self-mixing" where either
instruments are too loud (ever heard Albert Lee in a club? I've left
after 30 minutes because I don't want to destroy my ears with his VOX
ego trip) or too quiet (it's cool to watch solos without hearing them).

But again, the more pro the artists are, the less work you have with
them (EQ, levels, arranging). The most work you have with wannabes who
THINK they are the greatest and have no clue how to *work* in a live
situation.

My 0.02 EUR. YMMV.


Regards,
Daniel
(freelance FOH engineer)
Anonymous
September 3, 2004 5:48:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

John, I'm not disputing that most vocalists don't carry their own processing
with them - most don't think about that sort of thing at all. The reason I
spoke up at all is that the idea that "The mix engineer should be as
noticeable as the lead singer, the bass player, the drummer." is absolutely
the opposite of the my philosophy - either as a musician or as a mixer. And
my point about bands mixing themselves has to do with their playing, not
with a console on stage. Musicians who listen to and respond to each other
essentially mix themselves.

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

>
> I'm gonna disagree with you Dave. Vocalist don't carry their own
> compressors,reverb, delay, chorus..whatever with them. And they are on
> stage..not a good placve to mix from. Most younger bands expecially have
> little concept of a mix outside of what they hear in their rehearsal
space. I
> look at live mixing like Joel..I do a lot of studio mixing and the closer
I can
> get to that in a live setting the better everyone likes it..and I ask. I
think
> the reason most are shy of letting the FOH guy do his thing is that there
are a
> lot of them that don't do it very well.
>
>
> John A. Chiara
> SOS Recording Studio
> Live Sound Inc.
> Albany, NY
> www.sosrecording.net
> 518-449-1637
Anonymous
September 3, 2004 5:51:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 22:48:56 GMT, Joel Farris
<this.is.not@valid.address> wrote:

>Musicians don't mix themselves (unless they play bluegrass). Mixers mix
>bands. Bands play music. Mixers blend it all together.

I hear a lot of bands who AREN'T listening to each other and
balancing. But I shouldn't be.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
Anonymous
September 3, 2004 6:01:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>And
>my point about bands mixing themselves has to do with their playing, not
>with a console on stage. Musicians who listen to and respond to each other
>essentially mix themselves.
>

I understand..in most cases the environment the musicians are in has little to
do with what the FOH sounds like..especially if there is a crowd. A mix onstage
of say..drums, bass and guitars sounds one way but the fact that the lower bass
frequencies are more omni than the guitars..which are normally aimed at the
back of the players knees.. and the drums are a huge sonic mixture, and the
apparent volume of these instruments sounds different to the mic than at the
musicians ears..etc.etc and we have a lot of variables that I..as the FOH
mixer..would consider it my job to balance.

Again my observation is..and I go to a LOT of shows..5 or 6 a week.. is that
most sound persons do too little as opposed to too much..mostly because they
don't know how to do more to make it sound better.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637
Anonymous
September 3, 2004 7:05:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Daniel Roesen wrote:

> (ever heard Albert Lee in a club? I've left after 30 minutes because I
> don't want to destroy my ears with his VOX
> ego trip)

Albert never played VOX AFAIK.
Twins in the past (which sounded great!) and some Tweed amp now (which don´t
sound that good to my ears).

BTW: I never enter a concert without earplugs nowadays.

Peter
---
http://www.merlinsound.de
Anonymous
September 3, 2004 2:44:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <20040902220103.28198.00000260@mb-m01.aol.com> blindjoni@aol.com writes:

> ..in most cases the environment the musicians are in has little to
> do with what the FOH sounds like..especially if there is a crowd. A mix onstage
> of say..drums, bass and guitars sounds one way but the fact that the lower bass
> frequencies are more omni than the guitars..which are normally aimed at the
> back of the players knees.. and the drums are a huge sonic mixture, and the
> apparent volume of these instruments sounds different to the mic than at the
> musicians ears..etc.etc

There are ways to correct these things that cause problems both on
stage and in the audience. Place amplifiers so that band members can
hear each other. Adjust volumes so that the band members can hear each
other. Maintain levels so it's not necessary for the guitar to play
louder than the drums in order for the bass player to hear the guitar.
As Dave says, LISTEN and don't compete on stage.

> and we have a lot of variables that I..as the FOH
> mixer..would consider it my job to balance.

Well, you do what you can. However you don't really have a lot of
flexibility in making your balance. You can't turn loud things down,
you can only turn quieter things up. This is often a problem.

There are some situations where the band has chosen to play
intstruments that don't balance naturally and need some help. But
electric guitar, bass, and drums when you're playing rock and roll
can fit together nicely, and all it takes is to bring the level of the
singer up to where he or she can be heard clearly, and add effects if
they're effective (and not if they're not).

I don't see any reason why it can't sound on stage pretty much like it
sounds in the house, it's just that the way we've become used to
setting things up and working our way through a set, we just don't do
it that way. Nobody ever turns DOWN, so everyone has to turn up, and
it becomes a reactive thing.

But as I recall, this discussion was initially about whether, when
playing a solo, the player should turn up, or the mix engineer should
turn him up. I ask why turn up at all? Why don't the band members back
off and make room for the solo? That will allow the band to hear the
soloist, it will allow the audience to hear the soloist, and it will
allow the soloist to use his tone as an element of expression rather
than simply volume.

> Again my observation is..and I go to a LOT of shows..5 or 6 a week.. is that
> most sound persons do too little as opposed to too much..mostly because they
> don't know how to do more to make it sound better.

You go to many more shows than I do. It's unfortunate that so many of
then don't sound better than they do, but I wonder if they'd sound
better if the sound person did less instead of more.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
September 3, 2004 9:27:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>But
>electric guitar, bass, and drums when you're playing rock and roll
>can fit together nicely, and all it takes is to bring the level of the
>singer up to where he or she can be heard clearly, and add effects if
>they're effective (and not if they're not).

What happens in crowded rooms..or even if there are people standing in front of
the band..is that if the stage instruments aren't coming from the PA speakers
there is no way it is going to be balanced for the audience. I use many drastic
cut EQ'iong techniques to get part of every instrument in the PA so that the
sound appears to be coming from a single stereo source. I admit I am a little
obsessed with a really
Hi-Fi PA sound as it really jazzes me when a show comes alive and is exciting.

>You go to many more shows than I do. It's unfortunate that so many of
>then don't sound better than they do, but I wonder if they'd sound
>better if the sound person did less instead of more.

Mike, the overall problem is that very few people running systems can actually
mix..
sad but true. If they don't get some studio experience their exposure to a
balanced mix and what constitutes it is very limited.
It's impossible to get familiar and proficient with gear if you don't
practice..the whole band gets to practice but the guy mixing has to wing
it...usually not the best setup.
I realize it's a money thinjg..I do live shows occasionally because it's fun
and I get to try out new gear and hone my listening and mixing skills. Most
mixers I see aren't even trying.
John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637
Anonymous
September 3, 2004 10:08:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

John, I don't think that we're disagreeing - I think that we're simply
having a difficulty with semantics. What you're talking about doing is
translating what the musicians want (that is, what they're hearing) into the
larger environment supported by the house system. That's what you're
supposed to do, and it sounds as though that's what you're doing. What made
me respond to the thread was an FOH guy who wanted to be 'creative' and 'as
noticeable as the lead singer'. That isn't what I look for in a sound guy.

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

"Blind Joni" <blindjoni@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040902220103.28198.00000260@mb-m01.aol.com...
> >And
> >my point about bands mixing themselves has to do with their playing, not
> >with a console on stage. Musicians who listen to and respond to each
other
> >essentially mix themselves.
> >
>
> I understand..in most cases the environment the musicians are in has
little to
> do with what the FOH sounds like..especially if there is a crowd. A mix
onstage
> of say..drums, bass and guitars sounds one way but the fact that the lower
bass
> frequencies are more omni than the guitars..which are normally aimed at
the
> back of the players knees.. and the drums are a huge sonic mixture, and
the
> apparent volume of these instruments sounds different to the mic than at
the
> musicians ears..etc.etc and we have a lot of variables that I..as the FOH
> mixer..would consider it my job to balance.
>
> Again my observation is..and I go to a LOT of shows..5 or 6 a week.. is
that
> most sound persons do too little as opposed to too much..mostly because
they
> don't know how to do more to make it sound better.
>
>
> John A. Chiara
> SOS Recording Studio
> Live Sound Inc.
> Albany, NY
> www.sosrecording.net
> 518-449-1637
Anonymous
September 4, 2004 12:37:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <20040903132707.04424.00001789@mb-m24.aol.com> blindjoni@aol.com writes:

> What happens in crowded rooms..or even if there are people standing in front of
> the band..is that if the stage instruments aren't coming from the PA speakers
> there is no way it is going to be balanced for the audience.

When you get over about 200, sure, you need PA for more than the
vocals, but if the instruments are pretty well balanced on stage,
usually you can get a balance pretty quickly and it doesn't change
much until the players start fooling with their own levels.

> I admit I am a little
> obsessed with a really
> Hi-Fi PA sound as it really jazzes me when a show comes alive and is exciting.

That's a good thing and I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't do it,
but someone who doesn't know what he's doing or what he's going after
can really screw things up by putting too much of an instrument into
the PA and then trying to cut it down to size with EQ.

> Mike, the overall problem is that very few people running systems can actually
> mix..

I think this was the subject of this thread (or maybe another) - it's
a skill just like playing an instrument and you don't want a drummer
who can't keep time or a guitarist who can't play Stairway to Heaven
or Purple Haze or Johnny B. Goode in your band depending on what kind
of band you have. But somehow we tolerate people as sound system
operators when we'd probably be better off with a set-and-forget.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
September 4, 2004 9:35:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) >>
<< But as I recall, this discussion was initially about whether, when
playing a solo, the player should turn up, or the mix engineer should
turn him up. I >>

It was kinda about whether the drummer's girlfriend should turn his solo up
or not, or if he should run he PA and do it himself. Neither one is a good
idea, and that the question is being asked at all shows that there is a level
of musicality yet to be acheived by the band. Addresssing that need for
musical development should be the first order of business IMO, and training a
suitable fan capable of learning to mix secondary.


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Anonymous
September 4, 2004 1:30:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> << But as I recall, this discussion was initially about whether, when
> playing a solo, the player should turn up, or the mix engineer should
> turn him up. I >>

In article <20040904013514.05051.00003388@mb-m24.aol.com> willstg@aol.comnospam writes:

> It was kinda about whether the drummer's girlfriend should turn his solo up
> or not, or if he should run he PA and do it himself. Neither one is a good
> idea

I agree. I just lost track of who the "mix engineer" might be.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
September 4, 2004 1:39:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:44:46 -0400, Mike Rivers wrote
(in article <znr1094207631k@trad>):

> But as I recall, this discussion was initially about whether, when playing a
> solo, the player should turn up, or the mix engineer should turn him up. I
> ask why turn up at all? Why don't the band members back off and make room for

> the solo? That will allow the band to hear the soloist, it will allow the
> audience to hear the soloist, and it will allow the soloist to use his tone
> as an element of expression rather than simply volume.

And that, ladies and gents, is the correct answer. What's in the prize closet
for Mr. Rivers Jocko?


Regards,

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Anonymous
September 4, 2004 7:42:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1094207631k@trad...
>...Why don't the band members back
> off and make room for the solo? That will allow the band to hear the
> soloist, it will allow the audience to hear the soloist, and it will
> allow the soloist to use his tone as an element of expression rather
> than simply volume.

But then you can't sell tons of extra mikes, monitors, equilizers and
compressers because they are no longer needed. Sound IS all about selling
people gear isn't it?

--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com
Anonymous
September 4, 2004 7:42:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <Inl_c.305926$OB3.130184@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> olh@hyperback.com writes:

> But then you can't sell tons of extra mikes, monitors, equilizers and
> compressers because they are no longer needed. Sound IS all about selling
> people gear isn't it?

Well, it's also about selling a performance to more people than the
performance can practically support.

I understand the economic necessity of sound reinforcement in this
"big box" market, but ECONOMIC is the key word - you have to spend
money on adequate SR equipment and personnel if you want to play in a
venue that accommodates more people, which takes in more money, which
SHOULD pay for the sound reinforcement. But sometimes it doesn't work
out that way.

Still, if the band plays like a band, it removes the necessity for the
engineer to try to do all their arrangements in real time.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
September 4, 2004 8:28:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>But somehow we tolerate people as sound system
>operators when we'd probably be better off with a set-and-forget.

I agree.
John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637
Anonymous
September 4, 2004 10:27:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 09:39:47 -0400, Ty Ford <tyreeford@comcast.net>
wrote:

>> But as I recall, this discussion was initially about whether, when playing a
>> solo, the player should turn up, or the mix engineer should turn him up. I
>> ask why turn up at all? Why don't the band members back off and make room for
>
>> the solo? That will allow the band to hear the soloist, it will allow the
>> audience to hear the soloist, and it will allow the soloist to use his tone
>> as an element of expression rather than simply volume.
>
>And that, ladies and gents, is the correct answer. What's in the prize closet
>for Mr. Rivers Jocko?

The undisputed fact that everyone else should turn DOWN during a solo
requires that the soloist may have to turn UP a little. Remember -
in the previous section of music he was part of "everyone else" .

This leads to a wonderful picture of a band chasing each other DOWN
the volume scale until, eventually, the music sinks into inaudibility.

This does sometimes happen. I was on stage last week, playing piano
for a singer. I was tucked neatly away at the back of the stage, so
was very dependent on my monitor. Which, as so often, the sound droid
failed to turn on. So I played softer, in order to hear the singer.
So he sang softer, in order to hear me. So the whole thing almost
fell apart. Arrrggggh!

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
Anonymous
September 4, 2004 10:31:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Laurence Payne" <l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message

> This leads to a wonderful picture of a band chasing each other DOWN
> the volume scale until, eventually, the music sinks into inaudibility.
>
Gosh... if only that happened more often...

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com
Anonymous
September 4, 2004 11:24:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

* Peter Duemmler <merlin@merlinsound.de>:
> Daniel Roesen wrote:
>
>> (ever heard Albert Lee in a club? I've left after 30 minutes because I
>> don't want to destroy my ears with his VOX ego trip)
>
> Albert never played VOX AFAIK.
> Twins in the past (which sounded great!) and some Tweed amp now (which don´t
> sound that good to my ears).

Hehe OK, you're right... Were some Fenders. BTW, we were visiting the
same concert, you remember? :-)

> BTW: I never enter a concert without earplugs nowadays.

Probably a very good idea indeed. Problem is that it's difficult to mix
with earplugs - you won't have the same experience as the audience.
Especially, you won't have the decrease in high frequency sensitivity
over time.


Best regards,
Daniel
Anonymous
September 5, 2004 12:36:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>BTW: I never enter a concert without earplugs nowadays.
>
>Probably a very good idea indeed. Problem is that it's difficult to mix
>with earplugs - you won't have the same experience as the audience.
>Especially, you won't have the decrease in high frequency sensitivity
>over time.

Just one more reason to wonder if the soundman is deaf!
John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637
Anonymous
September 8, 2004 4:50:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

You might as well do it yourself. If the tech isn't familiar with the
tunes he might 'sleep' through the significant passages. It will
always sound better out front if the band has their tone/levels
together. It will also help you to be more expessive and articulate if
you can hear yourself over the roar of the band. Keep in mind that too
loud is just too loud.

Many people use pedals like Tube Screamers etc to get a volume or gain
boost. Many of these will color your sound, maybe good, maybe bad. I
recently did a recording session with a guitarist who had the Sansamp
Double Drive pedal. I was amazed! It added saturation and volume (if
so desired) without adding distortion on both a Line 6 and Marshall
amp. It didn't change the tone. It's my new favorite toy.

Norm!!
In article <2a4e3021.0408281429.3f8c84bb@posting.google.com>, Shawn
<Shawn@Thrillofthechase.biz> wrote:

> Hi,
> I am a guitarist and am in charge of the pa in my band.
> I have several ways to boost my signal for my solos, depending on
> which guitar rig I'm using.
> I'm just wondering, in most live rock applications, is it more common
> for the guitarist to boost for solos himself or for the sound-person
> to bump up the fader appropriately.
> What say you all?
>
> Thank you,
> Shawn
Anonymous
September 8, 2004 5:16:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> I
>recently did a recording session with a guitarist who had the Sansamp
>Double Drive pedal. I was amazed! It added saturation and volume (if
>so desired) without adding distortion

Along the same lines, I have seen 3 different guitarists in the last few months
who used an MXR Micro Amp for the smane effect. It added a distinctive body and
lift without changing the tone too much..very good for a live rig.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637
!