Am I Being Selfish?

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Hi all.....I've always said with regards to a lot of the music produced
these days:

<<Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of
practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an
instrument?!?!?
In 100yrs time or so no one will actually play an instrument anymore
at this rate!>>


I think what it is; I'm being selfish here! When I'm in my 60's 70's 80's
(if I get that far: & incapable of playing myself for what ever reason: I
want to be able to listen to great players of the day.
The likes of, pheeeew where do I start:
Guitarists: Al Di Meola, Frank Gambalie, Greg Howe, Pat Metheny, Eric
Johnson, Larry Colton, Jan Ackerman, Gary Moore.
Drummers: Dennis Chambers, Vinnie Colaiuta, Virgil Donati, Dave Weckl, Billy
Cobham, Steve Smith.
Bass Players: Victor Wooten, Jaco Pastorius, John Patitucci, Jeff Berlin,
Charles Mingus, Mark King, Alphonso Johnson.
Piano/Keys: Oscar Peterson, Chick Corea, Lyle Mays, George Duke, Thijs Van
Leer..i could go on & on!!!
A few of these greats have already departed from this world. Yep Selfish!!!
As i said: i'll have no one to listen to the way music is going at the
moment!!!

Just a thought.

WaLT.

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DCC <philsick@london.com> wrote:
>
><<Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of
>practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an
>instrument?!?!?

It's in the classical world, and the reason that it's still in the classical
world is because there is still an emphasis on live concerts performed with
no amplification. As long as this remains the case in any sector of the music
industry, there will be a need for that practice, dedication, and torment,
because there won't be any way around it.

>In 100yrs time or so no one will actually play an instrument anymore
>at this rate!

Well, at least prices on vintage guitars will start coming down.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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George <g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>In article <cgskp0$qgp$1@panix2.panix.com>,
> kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>> DCC <philsick@london.com> wrote:
>> >
>> ><<Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of
>> >practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an
>> >instrument?!?!?
>>
>> It's in the classical world, and the reason that it's still in the classical
>> world is because there is still an emphasis on live concerts performed with
>> no amplification. As long as this remains the case in any sector of the music
>> industry, there will be a need for that practice, dedication, and torment,
>> because there won't be any way around it.
>>
>what does amplification have to do with it?

Because a sound reinforcement system that is designed for amplification can
also do all sorts of other things when the audience isn't looking. If you
get rid of it completely, you also get rid of a lot of other crutches that
come along with it.

Also, of course, without a sound reinforcement system, performers are forced
to learn about dynamics and to learn to control them properly, because there
is nobody else to do it for them.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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<< Also, of course, without a sound reinforcement system, performers are forced
to learn about dynamics and to learn to control them properly, because there
is nobody else to do it for them. >>

Of course, there are also performers who choose to work with amplification as
an artistic decision, & who understand & control their dynamics with incredible
precision.
AND they work closely with the sound system engineer to achieve an intended
dynamic result, although dynamics isn't the only, or even necessarily the
predominant element affected by the decision to use amplification.

Scott Fraser

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in article g.p.gleason-C9B353.09594829082004@netnews.worldnet.att.net,
George at g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net wrote on 8/29/04 9:59 AM:

> In article <cgsljk$h3a$1@panix2.panix.com>,
> kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>> George <g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>> In article <cgskp0$qgp$1@panix2.panix.com>,
>>> kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>>
>>>> DCC <philsick@london.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <<Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of
>>>>> practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an
>>>>> instrument?!?!?
>>>>
>>>> It's in the classical world, and the reason that it's still in the
>>>> classical
>>>> world is because there is still an emphasis on live concerts performed
>>>> with
>>>> no amplification. As long as this remains the case in any sector of the
>>>> music
>>>> industry, there will be a need for that practice, dedication, and torment,
>>>> because there won't be any way around it.
>>>>
>>> what does amplification have to do with it?
>>
>> Because a sound reinforcement system that is designed for amplification can
>> also do all sorts of other things when the audience isn't looking. If you
>> get rid of it completely, you also get rid of a lot of other crutches that
>> come along with it.
>>
>> Also, of course, without a sound reinforcement system, performers are forced
>> to learn about dynamics and to learn to control them properly, because there
>> is nobody else to do it for them.
>
> MY POV is the musician comes first

GEORGE... note one BIG thing... (and this isn't MENTIONEd for teh purpose of
ciomplementing you, but certainly can and should be TAKEn as one) your work
aesthetic is, at least in teh circles where I travel, NOT the norm, and more
important, NOT what a lot of players INSIST on: they don;t HAVe great tone
and thus EXPECT you to 'invent' that for them. The classic wonderful (and to
me inherent cornerstone) idea of a 'sound person/system' that by design and
expectation is basically a WINDOW isn't what's wanted by the folks who
figure it ain;t THEIR fault they sound like they do.


> I do as much sound for sympohnies and orchestras as anything else
> then there is amplification as a essential element to the art and
> musicianship people like SRV and Eric Clapton, even Pink Floyd
> required amplification to complete thier artistic visions
> Amplification is like a throttle on a motorcycle
> used properly it delivers a rush unattainable any other way, used
> incorrectly and the results are devestating
> so I do not see the use of amplication diminishing the need to be a
> skilled musician
> remeber there are thousands of unskilled non amplifed musician as well,
> come to a party at my shop, they will be there :-)

Perfecty phrased.
Another way to look at it (and this is part-and-parcel of the RECORDING job
but bleeds into reenforcement) is that it's also sonic portrait photography.
You have to hide the blemishes, make the most of teh good features and set
it all off in an attractive and artistically interesting and appropriate
light. Not that easy on the fly live especially when you ain't got a Sophia
Loren in front of the lens or a KDLang in front of the mic.

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><Where's all the real musician ship gone & the thousands of hours of
>>practice, dedication & torment that goes with trying to master an
>>instrument?!?!?
>
>It's in the classical world, and the reason that it's still in the classical
>world is because there is still an emphasis on live concerts performed with
>no amplification.

Among other reasons, such as composers taking their ideas to the limit
which can sometimes require extreme technical skill to execute.

It's tempting to get bent out of shape, but popular music has become all
haircuts/titties and no music to a startling degree in the last 10 years. The
latest generations of would-be pop musicians seem completely unconcerned about
being able to play or sing whatsoever. The industry rarely rewards talent
(outside of niche genres)

Musical ability is simply not a requirment to be a musician any longer.

This is all very frustrating if you are trying to assemble a good rock
band. There aren't enough players to go around, not even close.


"I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between
what you say and what you think you have said."
-george (paraphrased)

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In article <20040829164626.06167.00000005@mb-m29.aol.com>,
symphonle@aol.comblahblah (knud) wrote:

> >Amplification is like a throttle on a motorcycle
> >used properly it delivers a rush unattainable any other way, used
> >incorrectly and the results are devestating
>
> I've nothing against amplification, but I would argue that nothing can
> beat
> the rush of a full brass section playing maxed out.
>
except to share it with 6000 people all grooveing on the energy of it
george

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In article <20040829165106.06167.00000006@mb-m29.aol.com>,
symphonle@aol.comblahblah (knud) wrote:

> >CASE: in the jazz realm way many stand-up bassists just can/will not play
> >without an amp (usually one that makes the instrument reproduce at 80-90dB
> >at 3m with a note-flat response down to 20Hz) even when working against
> >real piano and lo-vol jazz guitar in a small room no-reenforcement
> >situation. They don;t want to have to WORK to make the instrument sound and
> >thus CAN not get the intensity and tone out of the instrument acoustically.
>
> As an arranger I would point out that the bass is not a very loud
> instrument, and can easily be drowned out by a loud drum kit and piano. Even
> all those basses lined up in an orchestra are not as loud as they look like
> they should be.

either is the triangle. but youd be surprised how much it can add when
it can be heard!!!
george

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in article 20040829165106.06167.00000006@mb-m29.aol.com, knud at
symphonle@aol.comblahblah wrote on 8/29/04 4:51 PM:

>> CASE: in the jazz realm way many stand-up bassists just can/will not play
>> without an amp (usually one that makes the instrument reproduce at 80-90dB
>> at 3m with a note-flat response down to 20Hz) even when working against
>> real piano and lo-vol jazz guitar in a small room no-reenforcement
>> situation. They don;t want to have to WORK to make the instrument sound and
>> thus CAN not get the intensity and tone out of the instrument acoustically.
>
> As an arranger I would point out that the bass is not a very loud
> instrument, and can easily be drowned out by a loud drum kit and piano.

played badly/inappropriately SURE, but then that fits for ANY musician
(amped or not) that doesn;t know how to play with other musicians.

The string quartet avec piano is a time-tested balance of sound and older
than any electric system that can 'help' it. It's the basis and core of
every jazz ensemble out there. Players who can Play Together -GET- this and
are a thing of beauty and a joy to behold. Sure, there is the aesthetic that
INCORPORATES reenforcement as integral to a SOUND CONCEPT (Laurie Anderson
etc) but ANY time that approach IGNORES what can be gotten from the
instrument FIRST, it loses much, and THAT is what is becoming a lost art.

We have an artificial audience-expected ('lazy-listener' I call it)
aesthetic here that goes far beyond the topic at hand and plays directly
into the loudness wars Big Broadway Sound and every movie we see. It started
in the 40's with soloists boosted on radio and then live so that the band
did NOT need to be properly arranged to BACK them instead of have them
boosted above the band. Imagine watching the Basie band on tour in the 70's
work with a singer and have the power fail in the middle of the tune and
within a MEASURE that band was brought down BEHIND the singer and ballanced
right. magic. A 10 piece brass section playing ensemble playing pianissimo
behind a soloist results in a COMLETELY different timbre adn emotional
connection than the same section playing mezzo backing a boosted soloist.
Couple that with the VERY real loss of human and emotional contact you get
MERELY by putting even the best sound system between a player and an
audience and you have a very tough hurdle to get over, one that's all but
invisible.



> Even
> all those basses lined up in an orchestra are not as loud as they look like
> they should be.
>
>
> "I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between
> what you say and what you think you have said."
> -george (paraphrased)

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> I've nothing against amplification, but I would argue that nothing can
>> > beat
>> > the rush of a full brass section playing maxed out.
>> >
>> except to share it with 6000 people all grooveing on the energy of it
>
>That's the problem. 5800 of them should sit home and listen to the CD.

We've a long way to go with sound playback and recording. Even the best
speakers are a long way from the real thing. Real instruments have this
incredible healing power. I come out after attending an intense performance and
I'm practically shaking, in a good way.


"I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between
what you say and what you think you have said."
-george (paraphrased)

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in article 20040829220145.09145.00002610@mb-m01.aol.com, knud at
symphonle@aol.comblahblah wrote on 8/29/04 10:01 PM:

>>> As an arranger I would point out that the bass is not a very loud
>>> instrument, and can easily be drowned out by a loud drum kit and piano.
>>
>> played badly/inappropriately SURE, but then that fits for ANY musician
>> (amped or not) that doesn;t know how to play with other musicians.
>
> OK, I suppose a single unamplified bass could be considered loud relative
> to a banging piano, drums and brass if you beat your strings with a
> sledgehammer. I think you have a situation in mind where the other players are
> lowering their dynamics considerably to achieve balance.

well DUHHHH!!!
(sorry... but what else -IS- there to playing as a group?)


> That's a nice
> situation, but take your average skill college jazz group and watch what
> happens.

It's MY fault they can;t play?
But then again the 'kids' playing in those bands THESE days -scare- me. THe
best indeed are working with a classical aesthetic adn CAN and DO do -just-
this thing: ballance.


> A little reinforcement on bass doesn't hurt. I know guys who only use
> the amp for around 30-40% of their sound. It's more of a subliminal boost than
> anything. I fail to see the sacriledge in this.

We have a real aesthetic difference here I think... we may have to
agree-to-disagree.
In my book 30-40% is WAYYYYYYY beyond any reality that I could ever call
'subliminal'. Particularly for an instrument that, with piano and parlor
instruments, playing to 50-200 people should (and has for generations)
indeed work naturally together.
I do subliminal sound for several clients. It's the best treat I get all
year. It has everything to do with the fact that you have no real idea
there's a sound system on unless it drops out. Usually I build the whole
thing around the natural piano. The musicians are exceptional: they LIVE to
balance, you know, like, what are they called again? oh yeah... classical
musicians, those folks who sit in a circle and LIVe to balance against each
other.
THat's the art.
That's the concept.
That's the mandate.
That's just where it STARTS.
After that you start to get into things like musicality, expression,
passion, art.

We may well be living with very different botom lines here.

>
>> We have an artificial audience-expected ('lazy-listener' I call it)
>> aesthetic here that goes far beyond the topic at hand and plays directly
>> into the loudness wars Big Broadway Sound and every movie we see.
>
> Movie theaters are cranked WAY too loud these days, but at least there is
> dynamic range unlike pop music.

not that much, you can;t be softer than th epopcorn and louder than pain.

>
>> Imagine watching the Basie band on tour in the 70's
>> work with a singer and have the power fail in the middle of the tune and
>> within a MEASURE that band was brought down BEHIND the singer and ballanced
>> right. magic.
>
> Look, I wish everyone who calls themselves a "musician" would learn how to
> be one, but the situation on the streets falls way short of par.
exactly what we're bemoaning here. Without that commiseration we can;t keep
it up front and address it getting better.


>
>> Couple that with the VERY real loss of human and emotional contact you get
>> MERELY by putting even the best sound system between a player and an
>> audience and you have a very tough hurdle to get over, one that's all but
>> invisible.
>
> I think amplified sound can be boring in alot of ways. Especially the
> "arena" concert scenario where you're better off staying home and listening to
> the recording. But the reality is that you can't hear a single human voice
> above rock drums.

rock is NOT whjat we're talking about here. rock mandates amps. Rather than
ballance, it demands loud.


> I like smaller setups, with the amps providing 100% of the
> guitar sound and only the singer amplified.


I'm working in one. Equivalents of a Deluxe for each guitar, 100w bass thru
4 10's and a vox-only PA. All working against the drum kit itself. It's
great.


>It still doesn't hold a candle to
> the sensation of real sound waves from the instruments in an acoustic space
> hitting you.

Like th edifference between a great playground swing and a killer
rollercoaster. 2 VERY different rides, but each perfect in and of itself.

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<< Imagine watching the Basie band on tour in the 70's
work with a singer and have the power fail in the middle of the tune and
within a MEASURE that band was brought down BEHIND the singer and ballanced
right. magic. >>

I 'mixed' the Count Basie Orchestra some years back in a 2,000 seat hall. They
arrived too late for a sound check, but were unworried. They said to mic the
string bass, the piano, & put a solo mic out front. No monitors. I did this,
then they proceeded to mix themselves perfectly. The blend within each section
was perfect, the blend between each section was perfect & the volume
appropriate to the venue, with only the slightest help from the piano, bass &
solo mics. Incredible, the most pro band I've run across in many years. I
really didn't have to do anything once they hit the stage.


Scott Fraser

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In article <20040829220427.09145.00002611@mb-m01.aol.com> symphonle@aol.comblahblah writes:

> >> except to share it with 6000 people all grooveing on the energy of it
> >That's the problem. 5800 of them should sit home and listen to the CD.
>
> We've a long way to go with sound playback and recording. Even the best
> speakers are a long way from the real thing. Real instruments have this
> incredible healing power. I come out after attending an intense performance and
> I'm practically shaking, in a good way.

But if the band isn't playing like a group, then you're not listening
to anything real at a concert either. You're listening to a
reproduction. And as you said, it has a way to go - whether the
speakers are on stage or in a listening room.

I enjoy the intimacy of live music that's intimate - music that's no
longer intimate when you amplify it so that 6000 people can hear it
and only a few can be close enough to see what's going on. I don't
enjoy music that imposes itself on me. But then that's just my own
preference. Some people enjoy being assaulted, and that's the most
important part of the concert experience for them.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

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in article znr1093871031k@trad, Mike Rivers at mrivers@d-and-d.com wrote on
8/30/04 10:36 AM:

> I enjoy the intimacy of live music that's intimate - music that's no
> longer intimate when you amplify it so that 6000 people can hear it
> and only a few can be close enough to see what's going on.

way back when, I discovered THE AIRMEN OF NOTE, the Air Force big-band
ensemble.
WHOAH! I had no clue but I knew what I liked.
What I found real fast though as an audience member, was what happened with
sound systems. They'd play big outdoor event venues (eg- huge stage and the
hillside around the Washington Monument on the Mall in DC) and what was
coming off the stacks 30' out from the stage was really agresive and
annoying... so I walked into the zone between the stage-edge and the stacks
where I could stand hearing the air blow off the bras across the stage and
into my ears. WOW! POWER! sure it was LOUDER out there on the hillside but
the sense of POWER just didin't exist anymore. And it sounded REAL.

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On 2004-08-30 symphonle@aol.comblahblah(knud) said:
>> I've nothing against amplification, but I would argue that
>>>nothing can > beat
>>> > the rush of a full brass section playing maxed out.
>>> except to share it with 6000 people all grooveing on the energy
>of it >
>the best speakers are a long way from the real thing. Real
>instruments have this incredible healing power. I come out after
>attending an intense performance and I'm practically shaking, in a
>good way. "
YOu and me both. HOwever let me tell you a story from the opposite
side of the fence A local organization has put together this gospel
type concert in a space normally used for acoustic performances:
choirs chamber ensembles etc. According to the lady who books the
venue they have a small system which does fine for voice-only work
etc. IT provides two microphones, no provision for monitors onstage
etc.

THe main act for this event uses midi sequences through some keyboards
along with an acoustic piano. HIs rider is pretty explicit about waht
he needs to have to perform. The system the venue has installed
cannot provide it according to the lady in charge of booking the hall.


I offered to provide racks stacks and labor but some additional
equipment would need to be rented or borrowed to meet the star's
rider. HOwever we aren't even talking about it yet because we're
afraid of spending the money and thinking the house system is
adequate. THey're gonna spend their money and get zip point nothing
here and I'mtempted to withdraw the offer of racks stacks and labor.

I prefer music without amplification when it's doable but this show is
not going to be doable for the performer without monitoring etc. I
hate to see these folks lose their investment in this but don't see
any other way to proceed at this point.

They've about a month to decide to pull it together and get what they
needthat I can't provide. WHen they finally figure out that I'm not
blowing smoke up their tailpipes they're going to ask me for racks and
stacks again I'm sure. since my capabilities don't quite meet his
rider without some additional equipment my labor of setting up a
system and tuning it to the room would be no doubt wasted as there
would be no headliner. I can be persuaded to change my mind with a
fee equaling the contribution of the group I belong to. should the
headliner perform with the compromised system i would then still
donate my racks stacks and labor by turning the check back over to the
grand poo bah. Should the headliner say there's no show, see ya
wouldn't wanna be ya then my organization gets its contribution
returned. Any thoughts anyone?




Richard Webb,
Electric SPider Productions, New Orleans, La.
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

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>But if the band isn't playing like a group, then you're not listening
>to anything real at a concert either. You're listening to a
>reproduction. And as you said, it has a way to go - whether the
>speakers are on stage or in a listening room.

The problem is ego and lack of education. Most "rock" guys I meet talk
about how they are only "playing for themselves" and all this other stuff. I
prefer to play WITH a group so that its sounds good to the AUDIENCE instead of
merely stroking my ego to compensate for lack of musicianship or even talent.
Every time I try to start a band I run into this problem. People do not
understand context and what it takes to make an arrangement work as a whole.
They just want to slap their dick on the instrument and try to get some dirty
snatch.


"I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between
what you say and what you think you have said."
-george (paraphrased)

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knud wrote:

> The problem is ego and lack of education. Most "rock" guys I meet talk
>about how they are only "playing for themselves" and all this other stuff. I
>prefer to play WITH a group so that its sounds good to the AUDIENCE instead of
>merely stroking my ego to compensate for lack of musicianship or even talent.
>Every time I try to start a band I run into this problem. People do not
>understand context and what it takes to make an arrangement work as a whole.
>They just want to slap their dick on the instrument and try to get some dirty
>snatch.

I knew a guy that fit that description. He had been in every band in the
community, but never for long because nobody wanted to put up with his
unwillingness to thing in terms of an ensemble. He died young and was
buried with his favorite guitar. As he and his coffin were lowered into
the grave, the guy next to me whispered, "At least we'll never have to hear
another endless solo on that guitar."

But it's great when you finally find some people who actually play together.
The last band I was in was just this way. We haven't gigged regularly in
seven years, but manage to get together one or two times per year and play
at parties. Last Saturday night was one such occasion. Something was amiss
the first time the keyboardist went to a Hammond sample through her Leslie
and she was about 10 dB below the level that would have been appropriate.
Most bands would have run her over like a ladder fallen from a truck on the
freeway, but within a measure we had all pulled back and made room for her
to play. "This," I thought, "is what I liked about playing in this band!"

--
========================================================================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
mkesti@gv.net | - The Who, Bargain

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

not knowing the room it's tough.

Local place here GORGEOUS 200 seat acoustic space. Problem was incoming
artists sounded AWFUL.
said space WILL NOT support amplified music ESPECIALLY anything with stage
monitors. teh stage area is cavernous, reverberant and projects that back
into the hall by DESIGN. Crack a monitor facing the artist and its
reverberated washback is what hits the audience. mess.
answer?
anything that needs amplification to balance has its speakers (specifically
WIDE dispersion speakers mind you) upstage BEHIND the band and thus becomes
an acoustical integral part of what comes off stage.

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<< Any thoughts anyone?
>>

Get a full description of your equipment to the potential headliner right away
explaining the situation & asking if they can work with it. Don't let the
promoter wait until too late, then spring a nasty disappointment on the
headlining act when they show up.


Scott Fraser

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Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article <20040829220427.09145.00002611@mb-m01.aol.com> symphonle@aol.comblahblah writes:
>
>
>>>>except to share it with 6000 people all grooveing on the energy of it
>>>
>>>That's the problem. 5800 of them should sit home and listen to the CD.
>>
>> We've a long way to go with sound playback and recording. Even the best
>>speakers are a long way from the real thing. Real instruments have this
>>incredible healing power. I come out after attending an intense performance and
>>I'm practically shaking, in a good way.
>
>
> But if the band isn't playing like a group, then you're not listening
> to anything real at a concert either. You're listening to a
> reproduction. And as you said, it has a way to go - whether the
> speakers are on stage or in a listening room.
>
> I enjoy the intimacy of live music that's intimate - music that's no
> longer intimate when you amplify it so that 6000 people can hear it
> and only a few can be close enough to see what's going on. I don't
> enjoy music that imposes itself on me. But then that's just my own
> preference. Some people enjoy being assaulted, and that's the most
> important part of the concert experience for them.
>

I've seen a couple of "theater" sized venues which supported a lot
of audience ( 2000 and up ) where you could hear everything,
max distance to the stage wasn't "opera glasses" far and it wasn't
that messy getting in or out.

SFAIK, those places are going belly up left right and center, and
they won't be replaced. And this at $50 to $150 a seat.

>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

--

Les Cargill

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< why I never got heavily
into the gospel thing.
>>

Yikes! Church politics. Sounds as bad as university politics, but without the
participants having any actual pretense to being educated. No thanks.


Scott Fraser

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"ScotFraser" <scotfraser@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040831011626.25722.00000034@mb-m17.aol.com...

> Ever hire a contractor to work on your house?

Don't get me started! <g> $27k later he's gone and I'm still working to
finish up what he didn't get done. I am NOT a happy camper, but at least
the light at the end of the tunnel isn't an oncoming train now!

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio