Sony and the PS3 embarrassment

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--

Somewhere in Texas, a village is missing its idiot.
"The Posting One" <noneblah@blahnone.com> wrote in message
news:2DOie.23059$NZ1.95@fe09.lga...
> KillZone 2 footage was pre-rendered (Sony claimed all footage was
> real-time). I bet everything else was pre-rendered too. This is PS2 all
> over again.
>
> http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2249

YOu did notice that story was complete and utter speculation, with
absolutely no evidence of any sort to support it? Right?
 
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The KillZone devs confirmed it by saying that the video at E3 was
"representative of possible gameplay".
 
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The Posting One wrote:
> KillZone 2 footage was pre-rendered (Sony claimed all footage was
> real-time). I bet everything else was pre-rendered too. This is PS2 all
> over again.
>
> http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2249

Did you get a close look at those "X-box 360" demo kiosks? Did you? Did
you look close? You were holding a X-box 360 controller but it had a
cord. Hmmm. Why was this? Was it because the Xbox-360 in the demo kiosk
was not really powered on? If you looked close enough, you would have
seen the two MAC's in the back of the kiosk where the games were
actually running on.

The Killzone 2 footage was in real-time. Several developer friends
confirmed it.

Regards,
--
Matt Costanza
Austin, Tx USA
 
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I'm shocked Xbox 360 games are playing on Macs. I thought Microsoft and
Apple were enemies.
 
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Matt Costanza wrote:

> Was it because the Xbox-360 in the demo kiosk was not really powered on?
> If you looked close enough, you would have seen the two MAC's in the
> back of the kiosk where the games were actually running on.

Pictures:

Powerless xbox360: http://www.computerbase.de/bild/news/10937/2/
2 Macs in the back: http://www.computerbase.de/bild/news/10937/3/

Dennis
 
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The Posting One wrote:
> KillZone 2 footage was pre-rendered (Sony claimed all footage was
> real-time). I bet everything else was pre-rendered too. This is PS2
all
> over again.
>
> http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2249

What embarrassment are you talking about? Throughout their
presentation, Sony only claimed their tech demos as real-time. They
said nothing of the sort about the game trailers.
 
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Thusly Dennis Schamne <schamne@despammed.com> Spake Unto All:

>Powerless xbox360: http://www.computerbase.de/bild/news/10937/2/
>2 Macs in the back: http://www.computerbase.de/bild/news/10937/3/

Much as I detest consoles, I don't think that means much. The game is
probably run in emulation because there are no real physical xbox360s
to run it on. They use macs simply because macs are much more similar
to the hardware of an xbox360 than a pc is, so the performance hit
from emulation is less.
 
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Mean_Chlorine wrote:

> Thusly Dennis Schamne <schamne@despammed.com> Spake Unto All:
>
>
>>Powerless xbox360: http://www.computerbase.de/bild/news/10937/2/
>>2 Macs in the back: http://www.computerbase.de/bild/news/10937/3/
>
>
> Much as I detest consoles, I don't think that means much. The game is
> probably run in emulation because there are no real physical xbox360s
> to run it on. They use macs simply because macs are much more similar
> to the hardware of an xbox360 than a pc is, so the performance hit
> from emulation is less.
>

I think it means quite a bit. You have to remember that Microsoft is
looking to launch in six months. Logistics to launch a new console can
eat up 3 to 4 months alone. With this in mind, Microsoft should have
been running games off of 360 hardware not dev kits.

Regards,
--
Matt Costanza
Austin, Tx USA
 
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Mean_Chlorine wrote:

> Much as I detest consoles, I don't think that means much. The game is
> probably run in emulation because there are no real physical xbox360s
> to run it on.

The Macs are the developing platforms for the xbox360.
Another link about this story (with pics):
http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2420&p=5

Dennis
 
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Thusly Dennis Schamne <schamne@despammed.com> Spake Unto All:

>Mean_Chlorine wrote:
>
>> Much as I detest consoles, I don't think that means much. The game is
>> probably run in emulation because there are no real physical xbox360s
>> to run it on.
>
>The Macs are the developing platforms for the xbox360.
>Another link about this story (with pics):
>http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2420&p=5

"Because the G5 systems can only use a GeForce 6800 Ultra or an ATI
Radeon X800 XT, developers had to significantly reduce the image
quality of their demos"

MUAHAHAHAHAHA! What bullshit! I never thought Anadtech would write
something that dumb, that's Tomshardware-quality nonsens.

There is a significant speed penalty associated with emulation, EVEN
when emulating an xbox360 on a Mac.
 
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Thusly Matt Costanza <somewhere@nowhere.com> Spake Unto All:

>> Much as I detest consoles, I don't think that means much. The game is
>> probably run in emulation because there are no real physical xbox360s
>> to run it on.

>I think it means quite a bit. You have to remember that Microsoft is
>looking to launch in six months. Logistics to launch a new console can
>eat up 3 to 4 months alone. With this in mind, Microsoft should have
>been running games off of 360 hardware not dev kits.

It does seem a bit strange that they couldn't drum up any development
machines this close to release. I can only guess that xbox2 production
has hit some kind of snag, and/or the hardware is still so buggy that
the games would've been likely to crash.
 
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Matt Costanza wrote:
> Did you get a close look at those "X-box 360" demo kiosks? Did you? Did
> you look close? You were holding a X-box 360 controller but it had a
> cord. Hmmm. Why was this?

Because they wanted their controllers to be around for more than the
first 5 minutes of the show?!? Just a guess there genius...

> Was it because the Xbox-360 in the demo kiosk
> was not really powered on? If you looked close enough, you would have
> seen the two MAC's in the back of the kiosk where the games were
> actually running on.

That would be the developers kit. What part of "tech-demo" didn't you
figure out? Was it the choppy frame rates and incomplete gameplay
elements that lead you to assume that a fully working, fresh off the
assembly line production xbox 360 was running back there? Or perhaps it
was all the confusing words like "unfinished", "alpha", "early beta"
"representative of the finished product" etc.?


> The Killzone 2 footage was in real-time. Several developer friends
> confirmed it.

It's pre-rendered... I'm sure they are loving all the attention and
publicity they are getting from releasing a CGI clip and then
intentionally floating rumors claiming it's game play... Of course with
gullible people who have "developer friends" to help spread the rumor
they can't lose.

--
Simon
"I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain." -- Robert A. Heinlein
 
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On 21 May 2005 23:07:14 -0700, arliza@pl.jaring.my wrote:

>The Posting One wrote:
>> KillZone 2 footage was pre-rendered (Sony claimed all footage was
>> real-time). I bet everything else was pre-rendered too. This is PS2
>all
>> over again.
>>
>> http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2249
>
>What embarrassment are you talking about? Throughout their
>presentation, Sony only claimed their tech demos as real-time. They
>said nothing of the sort about the game trailers.

there were 2 embarrassments at E3 - one was Nintendo's lackluster
'Revolution' press conference.. and MicroSoft, who's XBox 360 press
conference, wannabe MTV show was a joke.. i certainly didn't see
anything on the 360 that makes me what to go out and buy it come
Thanksgiving.. and the games.. poor to say the least, granted it's a
new machine and devs haven't had time to fully get upto specs on it..
but that new 'Test Drive' game looked awful, XBox 1 is more capable of
better graphics than that.. and those screenshots for 'Perfect Dark
Zero'... hmmm and that's supposed to be next-gen capabilities.. not
impressed. I'll stick with my XBox 1 and PS2 for now..

toadie
 
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yummycheese wrote:

> I'm shocked Xbox 360 games are playing on Macs. I thought Microsoft and
> Apple were enemies.
>
Heh. The X-box 360 has three PowerPC processors. I'm sure Intel has a
raised eyebrow...


Regards,
--
Matt Costanza
Austin, Tx USA
 
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Simon Juncal wrote:

> Matt Costanza wrote:
>
>> Did you get a close look at those "X-box 360" demo kiosks? Did you?
>> Did you look close? You were holding a X-box 360 controller but it had
>> a cord. Hmmm. Why was this?
>
>
> Because they wanted their controllers to be around for more than the
> first 5 minutes of the show?!? Just a guess there genius...

You missed the point completely. Microsoft is launching in six months.
Do you not see a problem here?

>
>> Was it because the Xbox-360 in the demo kiosk was not really powered
>> on? If you looked close enough, you would have seen the two MAC's in
>> the back of the kiosk where the games were actually running on.
>
>
> That would be the developers kit. What part of "tech-demo" didn't you
> figure out? Was it the choppy frame rates and incomplete gameplay
> elements that lead you to assume that a fully working, fresh off the
> assembly line production xbox 360 was running back there? Or perhaps it
> was all the confusing words like "unfinished", "alpha", "early beta"
> "representative of the finished product" etc.?

Again. These were demo games. Launching in six months. This is certainly
not sending the right message. It's also no secret that Microsoft made a
decision to speed up the launch to get to market before Sony. This
decision is going to hurt them in the long run.

Regards,
--
Matt Costanza
Austin, Tx USA
 
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On Sun, 22 May 2005 16:09:29 GMT, Matt Costanza
<somewhere@nowhere.com> wrote:

>yummycheese wrote:
>
>> I'm shocked Xbox 360 games are playing on Macs. I thought Microsoft and
>> Apple were enemies.
>>
>Heh. The X-box 360 has three PowerPC processors.

3 PPC compute-cores... NOT 3 complete PPCs
and no specifics yet on caches and memory-
bandwidth to each core.

>I'm sure Intel has a
>raised eyebrow...
>

I doubt if they are at all worried... Multi-core designs are not
exactly new-technology and Intel likes PROFIT-MARGIN.

You can bet that M$$ will be cutthroat on their Xbox360 suppliers,
as they were with nVidia ( and Intel ) on the Xbox. Doesn't seem as if
Big-I or nVidia are losing much sleep with regard to the Xbox3.
nVidia made very little money on the Xbox parts.

Also, I note that Ati's Xbox360 GPU/Memory Controller is being
fabricated by TSMC, while nVidia's PS3 GPU is being fabricated by Sony
themselves. Thus, ATi has got to worry about yield from a 3rd-party,
while all nVidia need do is pass the design to Sony, work with them on
the silicon-masks and claim royalties on each PS3 shipped... no
worries about yield for them...maybe fix a few silicon-design bugs or
yield-improvement tweaks with alpha-phase parts.

Ati has taken over the M$$ noose from nVidia; hope they will be
very happy !

John Lewis




>
>Regards,
>--
>Matt Costanza
>Austin, Tx USA
 
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On Sun, 22 May 2005 16:13:29 GMT, Matt Costanza
<somewhere@nowhere.com> wrote:

>Simon Juncal wrote:
>
>> Matt Costanza wrote:
>>
>>> Did you get a close look at those "X-box 360" demo kiosks? Did you?
>>> Did you look close? You were holding a X-box 360 controller but it had
>>> a cord. Hmmm. Why was this?
>>

It had a cord to stop it being stolen............ !!!!!

The actual RF controllers were also there and working, but only pulled
out for invited-press demos.

>>
>> Because they wanted their controllers to be around for more than the
>> first 5 minutes of the show?!? Just a guess there genius...
>
>You missed the point completely. Microsoft is launching in six months.
>Do you not see a problem here?
>

Many a slip 'tween the cup and the lip..........

The hardware and software design complexity is one order of magnitude
greater than the Xbox, which was an evolutionary derivative of the PC.
And the Xbox360 is also no PC. A single critical bug firmware or
hardware in the shipped product and M$$ eats the total cost of the
returns. No disk-based OS here. No user access to update Video-BIOS or
other firmware.... And if you think that I as a brand-new Xbox360
owner would return mine and accept another which was not brand-new
(and updated) but re-cycled, supposedly updated, from an unknown
consumer, you have another think coming............

No actual Xbox360 core-hardware at E3 is very ominous. Seems as if
even one single piece of complete alpha-hardware is not available. M$$
is setting themselves up to cut their own throats on unwanted returns,
if their management insists on a pre-Christmas shipment , and
insufficient time is given to both <<FIND>> and FIX both silicon and
firmware bugs.

The PS3 schedule is far more realistic, as far as having a stable and
bug-free product of this complexity.

John Lewis


>>
>>> Was it because the Xbox-360 in the demo kiosk was not really powered
>>> on? If you looked close enough, you would have seen the two MAC's in
>>> the back of the kiosk where the games were actually running on.
>>
>>
>> That would be the developers kit. What part of "tech-demo" didn't you
>> figure out? Was it the choppy frame rates and incomplete gameplay
>> elements that lead you to assume that a fully working, fresh off the
>> assembly line production xbox 360 was running back there? Or perhaps it
>> was all the confusing words like "unfinished", "alpha", "early beta"
>> "representative of the finished product" etc.?
>
>Again. These were demo games. Launching in six months. This is certainly
>not sending the right message. It's also no secret that Microsoft made a
>decision to speed up the launch to get to market before Sony. This
>decision is going to hurt them in the long run.
>
>Regards,
>--
>Matt Costanza
>Austin, Tx USA
 
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John Lewis wrote:

> On Sun, 22 May 2005 16:13:29 GMT, Matt Costanza

>>>>Did you get a close look at those "X-box 360" demo kiosks? Did you?
>>>>Did you look close? You were holding a X-box 360 controller but it had
>>>>a cord. Hmmm. Why was this?
>
> It had a cord to stop it being stolen............ !!!!!
>
> The actual RF controllers were also there and working, but only pulled
> out for invited-press demos.
>

Heh. Yes, I know. My original point was the controllers were connected
via a cable to a MAC. The actual controllers for X-box 360 are suppose
to be wireless. It was the first thing at the show that *everyone*
noticed. "Hey, I thought the controllers were going to wireless". Then
people started moving around the kiosk and saw the two MAC's in the
cabinet. I also thought it was funny that they chose to use a
see-through metal mesh door but sill trying and make people believe they
were playing those game demo's on a actual X-box 360.


> No actual Xbox360 core-hardware at E3 is very ominous. Seems as if
> even one single piece of complete alpha-hardware is not available. M$$
> is setting themselves up to cut their own throats on unwanted returns,
> if their management insists on a pre-Christmas shipment , and
> insufficient time is given to both <<FIND>> and FIX both silicon and
> firmware bugs.
>
> The PS3 schedule is far more realistic, as far as having a stable and
> bug-free product of this complexity.
>
> John Lewis
>

Very good points and I agree, Microsoft are putting themselves in a very
bad spot to launch their console.

Regards,,
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Matt Costanza
Austin, Tx USA
 
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Dennis Schamne wrote:
> John Lewis wrote:
>
> > No actual Xbox360 core-hardware at E3 is very ominous. Seems as if
> > even one single piece of complete alpha-hardware is not available.
>
> An Actual Running Xbox 360 at E3
>
> http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2420&p=6
>
> "ATI was fortunate enough to have a working Xbox 360 sample at their
booth:
>
> There was no controller hooked up to the sample, and ATI stationed
one
> employee next to the box at all times to avoid anyone making off with
it.
> The console itself was behind a glass box.
>
> The machine was running ATI's R520 Ruby demo, which took about a week
to
> port to the 360 from the original PC version. The hardware in this
> particular box wasn't running at full speed, but ATI mentioned that
they
> could if need be.
>
> ATI has had Xbox 360 GPU silicon back since last November, so we tend
to
> believe them."
>
> Dennis

My spare 2.4GHz PC with a 9800 card runs the Ruby demo just fine. So,
what is this saying, that the xflop full circle is just as good as a
moderately high end gaming PC with a new ATI graphics card that will be
out in a couple of months? And this is supposed to be impressive how?
Did anybody notice if that "working" xflop full circle even had a video
cable coming out from the back? That is the funny thing about the units
that were being shown, they didn't seem to need a video cable coming
out of the back to be able to display and there hasn't been any
indication they would have a wireless video output, which would be a
neat trick. They are claiming to be launching in 6 months but they
couldn't even come up with a fully operational unit for the largest
game show in the world. But they are all running around saying the PS3
was all fake. Sounds a lot like the arsonist that accuses everybody of
being a firebug.
 
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John Lewis wrote:

> No actual Xbox360 core-hardware at E3 is very ominous. Seems as if
> even one single piece of complete alpha-hardware is not available.

An Actual Running Xbox 360 at E3

http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2420&p=6

"ATI was fortunate enough to have a working Xbox 360 sample at their booth:

There was no controller hooked up to the sample, and ATI stationed one
employee next to the box at all times to avoid anyone making off with it.
The console itself was behind a glass box.

The machine was running ATI's R520 Ruby demo, which took about a week to
port to the 360 from the original PC version. The hardware in this
particular box wasn't running at full speed, but ATI mentioned that they
could if need be.

ATI has had Xbox 360 GPU silicon back since last November, so we tend to
believe them."

Dennis
 
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actually, it is Microsoft's responsibility to have the Xbox360 GPU
fabricated. it is not ATI's worry after the design is completed (it was
completed in late 2004)

Microsoft can go to whoever it wants to have the GPU manufactured. they
have chosen TSMC, but it is out of ATI's hands and not their problem.