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Live multitrack recording through ADAT lightpipe

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Anonymous
August 31, 2004 9:58:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

The rock band I mix for would like to capture some more of the "live" vibe
in their next demo CD. I have done a low tech version of this using a Sony
Pro Walkman (analogue tape deck) on a separate mix created on the fly from
my Behringer DDX3216 digital mixer - but that is quite intense work when you
are also keeping track of the FOH sound and delivering 3 monitor mixes,
taking booking requests from the audience members (we mainly do
weddings/parties) etc etc.

Since I have an ADAT card on the desk which gives me 16 channels out
(through 2 optical connections) and I own a laptop, I was wondering what the
most cost-effective way would be to record multitrack to the laptop's hard
disk and then clean it all up using a friends Pro Tools-based editing
machine later. The laptop is a 2 year old Toshiba Satellite 5000 with a 1.1G
processor, 512MB RAM, 30Gb hard disk and has firewire and PCMCIA connections
(amongst others).

I have seen two external boxes that look like they might work:
http://www.behringer.com/BCA2000/index.cfm?lang=ENG

This Behringer one can handle 1 ADAT feed in and then sends the signal by
USB2 to a computer. It has a lot of other stuff I don't need but only costs
£180 in the UK.

Then there is the RME digiface with PCMCIA card interface which can handle
both my ADAT "pipes" but costs £550 for the package in the UK:
http://www.rme-audio.com/english/hdsp/digifa.htm

They are both more sophisticated products than I think I need, although I
like the look of the free RME analysis software. Really all I want is a
small black box which has a couple of optical inputs for ADAT channels and a
single output (firewire, USB2 or proprietary to a PC card) to feed the data
to my laptop. But I can't find one of those.

Questions:

(1) Would these 2 systems do the job I'm hoping?
(2) Would I need to buy some basic software to "decode" (probably the wrong
term) the digital signal into 8 or 16 wav files on the hard-drive? Or could
I leave it in whatever format it comes in as and transfer it to Pro Tools
later? I might have a go at some basic editing myself if there is a
reasonably priced editor that I could use on the laptop.
(3) Has anyone done this using a different or a similar system?

Thanks

--
Andrew

(remove the "ZZ"s twice for the real e-mail address)
Anonymous
August 31, 2004 10:43:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

This isn't exactly the answer you are looking for. But I would consider
using either 1 or 2 ADATs at gigs themselves. It shouldn't be expensive
to rent them. This way, you have less fussing at the gigs since using
standalone machines will be easier. (And it does not have to be ADATS.
It can be any type of standalone recorder, including the various Fostex,
Akai, Mackie harddrive recorders).

I just suggest this since setting up multitrack recording system on
a computer often is challenging and you may not have the reliability
you are hoping for.

Of course, you are still going to need whatever interface you were looking
at in order to get the audio into your computer. Or, perhaps you can
load it directly into your friend's Protools system if he has ADAT I/O.

Rob R.

Andrew B. <bossZZarb25@hotzzmail.com> wrote:
> The rock band I mix for would like to capture some more of the "live" vibe
> in their next demo CD. I have done a low tech version of this using a Sony
> Pro Walkman (analogue tape deck) on a separate mix created on the fly from
> my Behringer DDX3216 digital mixer - but that is quite intense work when you
> are also keeping track of the FOH sound and delivering 3 monitor mixes,
> taking booking requests from the audience members (we mainly do
> weddings/parties) etc etc.

> Since I have an ADAT card on the desk which gives me 16 channels out
> (through 2 optical connections) and I own a laptop, I was wondering what the
> most cost-effective way would be to record multitrack to the laptop's hard
> disk and then clean it all up using a friends Pro Tools-based editing
> machine later. The laptop is a 2 year old Toshiba Satellite 5000 with a 1.1G
> processor, 512MB RAM, 30Gb hard disk and has firewire and PCMCIA connections
> (amongst others).

> I have seen two external boxes that look like they might work:
> http://www.behringer.com/BCA2000/index.cfm?lang=ENG

> This Behringer one can handle 1 ADAT feed in and then sends the signal by
> USB2 to a computer. It has a lot of other stuff I don't need but only costs
> £180 in the UK.

> Then there is the RME digiface with PCMCIA card interface which can handle
> both my ADAT "pipes" but costs £550 for the package in the UK:
> http://www.rme-audio.com/english/hdsp/digifa.htm

> They are both more sophisticated products than I think I need, although I
> like the look of the free RME analysis software. Really all I want is a
> small black box which has a couple of optical inputs for ADAT channels and a
> single output (firewire, USB2 or proprietary to a PC card) to feed the data
> to my laptop. But I can't find one of those.

> Questions:

> (1) Would these 2 systems do the job I'm hoping?
> (2) Would I need to buy some basic software to "decode" (probably the wrong
> term) the digital signal into 8 or 16 wav files on the hard-drive? Or could
> I leave it in whatever format it comes in as and transfer it to Pro Tools
> later? I might have a go at some basic editing myself if there is a
> reasonably priced editor that I could use on the laptop.
> (3) Has anyone done this using a different or a similar system?
Anonymous
September 1, 2004 4:02:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Andrew B." <bossZZarb25@hotZZmail.com> wrote in message
> (1) Would these 2 systems do the job I'm hoping?

Behringer -- probably; didn't spend too much time looking at it.
RME -- definitely; that's what it is made for and it would do it very well

> (2) Would I need to buy some basic software to "decode" (probably the
wrong
> term) the digital signal into 8 or 16 wav files on the hard-drive? Or
could
> I leave it in whatever format it comes in as and transfer it to Pro Tools
> later? I might have a go at some basic editing myself if there is a
> reasonably priced editor that I could use on the laptop.

You will need a multitrack program to capture the audio. I use Adobe
Audition, there are many others out there, maybe even free ones. Do a
Google search on it.

> (3) Has anyone done this using a different or a similar system?

Quite often. The main thing to consider is that you still have post
production time. Figure out why you're recording the shows, what shows you
want to record, and whether it's worth all the time and money to do it. If
you're going to release some live CD's or a compilation, then definitely
multitrack. If you're using it for the band's own personal use, there's no
better way than live to 2-track. Trust me, I've been down that road before.
If you have the multitrack then you'll want to mess with it for hours. If
you have a stereo recording then there's not much post production to be
done.

Go to groups.google.com and click advanced. Then type these two newsgroups
in the appropriate field and search for "live multitrack recording." That
should keep you busy for hours.
Related resources
Anonymous
September 1, 2004 9:28:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> The rock band I mix for would like to capture some more of the "live" vibe
> in their next demo CD.

Then why record off the board? Put up a pair of mics, fer fux sakes. And
if you can't get the sound working good enough to record live, then there
isn't much of a show to record is there?
Anonymous
September 1, 2004 9:53:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Thomas Bishop" <SPAMAWAYbishopthomas@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:uk8Zc.12013$ix3.6402@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
> "Andrew B." <bossZZarb25@hotZZmail.com> wrote in message
>> (1) Would these 2 systems do the job I'm hoping?
>
> Behringer -- probably; didn't spend too much time looking at it.
> RME -- definitely; that's what it is made for and it would do it very well
>
>> (2) Would I need to buy some basic software to "decode" (probably the
> wrong
>> term) the digital signal into 8 or 16 wav files on the hard-drive? Or
> could
>> I leave it in whatever format it comes in as and transfer it to Pro Tools
>> later? I might have a go at some basic editing myself if there is a
>> reasonably priced editor that I could use on the laptop.
>
> You will need a multitrack program to capture the audio. I use Adobe
> Audition, there are many others out there, maybe even free ones. Do a
> Google search on it.
>
>> (3) Has anyone done this using a different or a similar system?
>
> Quite often. The main thing to consider is that you still have post
> production time. Figure out why you're recording the shows, what shows
> you
> want to record, and whether it's worth all the time and money to do it.
> If
> you're going to release some live CD's or a compilation, then definitely
> multitrack. If you're using it for the band's own personal use, there's
> no
> better way than live to 2-track. Trust me, I've been down that road
> before.
> If you have the multitrack then you'll want to mess with it for hours. If
> you have a stereo recording then there's not much post production to be
> done.
>
> Go to groups.google.com and click advanced. Then type these two
> newsgroups
> in the appropriate field and search for "live multitrack recording." That
> should keep you busy for hours.


Thank you for the useful advice. I'd still be interested to know if anyone
has come across a simpler "black box" solution to the ADAT to
firewire/USB/PCMCIA conversion. Perhaps it isn't that simple
electronically?

Andrew
September 1, 2004 11:16:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Andrew B. wrote:
> Thank you for the useful advice. I'd still be interested to know if anyone
> has come across a simpler "black box" solution to the ADAT to
> firewire/USB/PCMCIA conversion. Perhaps it isn't that simple
> electronically?

Really, get the RME Card Bus adapter with their Multiface interface.
That is going to be your best bet if you want to record into your
laptop. If you want reliability, get an Alesis Hard Disk Recorder. That
will be far more reliable, not a whole lot more money money. You can get
get their Firewire hard disc adapter to transfer your tracks into your
computer. That would be my suggestion.

--
Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
Multi-Track Masters on CD-ROM
www.Raw-Tracks.com
Anonymous
September 1, 2004 12:20:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Sugarite" <nobody@home.com> wrote in message
news:1DgZc.13550$0c.4094@read1.cgocable.net

>> The rock band I mix for would like to capture some more of the
>> "live" vibe in their next demo CD.

> Then why record off the board?

For openers, it can give you a very clear shot at the vocals.

> Put up a pair of mics, fer fux sakes.

That, too.

I thnk it's pretty well known that the mix for a live show and the mix for a
recording are very often two very different things.

Vocals often suffer the most due to passage during the band's SR system. A
clean feed of vocals and some instrumental tracks, along with a two channel
feed of the room sound can be important ingredients in a sucessful mix.

> And if you can't get the sound working good enough to record live,
> then there isn't much of a show to record is there?

Well, lots of things pass for good music in live performances, that won't
stand repeated inspection via playback of a recording.
September 1, 2004 2:15:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

This is possible as long as the room sounds nice. However if the room
sounds bad the ambience from open miking could destroy the whole
sound. If every thing is tight miked, a more suitable recording may be
mixed and enhanced from protools. I'd rent or buy some adats (old
adats are pretty cheap nowdays, I'd go for the black face as the xt's
aren't as reliable), record on the adats and then dump them to
protools 8 tracks at a time, that is assuming your friend has the le
edition. Don't forget to put a reference point for alignment on the
tapes if you are only using one adat to dump down to protools. Do this
by putting one track of each adat machine in record and recording a
drum hit simutaniously on each track at the beginning of the tape,
that way if there are any time alignment problems you can line them up
to the sample using protools. Also be aware of which word clock you
are using to trnsfer with as this can make or break a digital
transfer. Contrary to what the manufacturers tell you a digital copy
is not always identical to the original.
Anonymous
September 1, 2004 7:08:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> >> The rock band I mix for would like to capture some more of the
> >> "live" vibe in their next demo CD.

[snip]

> > Put up a pair of mics, fer fux sakes.
> > And if you can't get the sound working good enough to record live,
> > then there isn't much of a show to record is there?
>
> Well, lots of things pass for good music in live performances, that won't
> stand repeated inspection via playback of a recording.

But the key words to the initial question were "live vibe" and "demo". Why
put expensive gear at risk multitracking and fart around for days mixing,
which always ends up throwing "live vibe" out the window anyway? You could
more easily record a whole series of shows using just a mic pair, pick the
best cuts, and have the demo tweaked and burned inside an hour.
Anonymous
September 1, 2004 11:31:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Sugarite" <nobody@home.com> wrote in message
news:i6pZc.14004$0c.788@read1.cgocable.net
>>>> The rock band I mix for would like to capture some more of the
>>>> "live" vibe in their next demo CD.
>
> [snip]
>
>>> Put up a pair of mics, fer fux sakes.
>>> And if you can't get the sound working good enough to record live,
>>> then there isn't much of a show to record is there?

>> Well, lots of things pass for good music in live performances, that
>> won't stand repeated inspection via playback of a recording.

> But the key words to the initial question were "live vibe" and "demo".

Niether of which disagree with what I said.

>Why put expensive gear at risk multitracking and fart around
> for days mixing, which always ends up throwing "live vibe" out the
> window anyway?

What expensive gear?

What risk?

Why must there be days of mixing?

Why does a good job of mixing necessarily throw the "live vibe" out the
window?

> You could more easily record a whole series of shows
> using just a mic pair, pick the best cuts, and have the demo tweaked
> and burned inside an hour.

If that's all it takes to get the results you desire, then wonderful!
Anonymous
September 2, 2004 4:15:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

You mean like PD-audio.

Bob

"Sugarite" <nobody@home.com> wrote in message
news:1DgZc.13550$0c.4094@read1.cgocable.net...
> > The rock band I mix for would like to capture some more of the "live"
vibe
> > in their next demo CD.
>
> Then why record off the board? Put up a pair of mics, fer fux sakes. And
> if you can't get the sound working good enough to record live, then there
> isn't much of a show to record is there?
>
>
Anonymous
September 2, 2004 5:39:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> >Why put expensive gear at risk multitracking and fart around
> > for days mixing, which always ends up throwing "live vibe" out the
> > window anyway?
>
> What expensive gear?

Not sure I should dignify that with a response, but we are talking about a
laptop-based mutitrack recording rig here...

> What risk?

Ask any insurance company for a quote on insuring a location recording rig,
compare that to insuring the same gear in a studio.

> Why must there be days of mixing?

Not much point in multitracking with a DAW unless you're going to get the
most out of it, like manual gating of damn near everything. Minimum 16
tracks x 90 minutes...

> Why does a good job of mixing necessarily throw the "live vibe" out the
> window?

Ask the engineers of countless live albums that sound like half-assed studio
albums with an audience track.
September 2, 2004 10:33:23 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Andrew B." <bossZZarb25@hotZZmail.com> wrote in message
news:ch2e8a$hb0$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
> The rock band I mix for would like to capture some more of the "live" vibe
> in their next demo CD. I have done a low tech version of this using a
Sony
> Pro Walkman (analogue tape deck) on a separate mix created on the fly from
> my Behringer DDX3216 digital mixer - but that is quite intense work when
you
> are also keeping track of the FOH sound and delivering 3 monitor mixes,
> taking booking requests from the audience members (we mainly do
> weddings/parties) etc etc.
>
> Since I have an ADAT card on the desk which gives me 16 channels out
> (through 2 optical connections) and I own a laptop, I was wondering what
the
> most cost-effective way would be to record multitrack to the laptop's hard
> disk and then clean it all up using a friends Pro Tools-based editing
> machine later. The laptop is a 2 year old Toshiba Satellite 5000 with a
1.1G
> processor, 512MB RAM, 30Gb hard disk and has firewire and PCMCIA
connections
> (amongst others).
>
M audio has a new product out
www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/FireWire1814-main.html. MOTU also has
something as well but gossip has it the it can be quite unstable on certain
brands of laptops (FWIW).

David
Anonymous
September 2, 2004 11:45:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Sugarite" <nobody@home.com> wrote in message
news:ilyZc.25913$%m4.2252239@read2.cgocable.net

>>> Why put expensive gear at risk multitracking and fart around
>>> for days mixing, which always ends up throwing "live vibe" out the
>>> window anyway?
>>
>> What expensive gear?
>
> Not sure I should dignify that with a response,

Yeah, I thought that when I read your post, but I decided to take it
seriously anyhow.

> but we are talking
> about a laptop-based mutitrack recording rig here...

You can't think of any other way to accomplish this, right? I think I could
field a working 16 track PC-based recorder at one point this summer and
maybe even get change from a $1,000 hardware budget. Furthermore it would be
robust, and would also be a good studio tool.

>> What risk?

> Ask any insurance company for a quote on insuring a location
> recording rig, compare that to insuring the same gear in a studio.

What do you think would be the minimum investment in the MT recording rig,
and how does that compare to the value of the other gear on site?

>> Why must there be days of mixing?

> Not much point in multitracking with a DAW unless you're going to get
> the most out of it, like manual gating of damn near everything.
> Minimum 16 tracks x 90 minutes...

I've been known to get a credible mix of 45 minutes of 12 tracks in about 2
hours. Of course, I'm fairly well-practiced at this. Besides, do you
seriously think that anybody is going to listen to a 90 minute demo?

>> Why does a good job of mixing necessarily throw the "live vibe" out
>> the window?

> Ask the engineers of countless live albums that sound like half-assed
> studio albums with an audience track.

I think it's time for some immature musos to own up to the facts about their
music. In the cosmic scheme of things, it isn't all that great. When you
make a recording, that recording begs to be compared in terms of the comic
scheme of things. The truth outs.

It may sound good live when you play it, and maybe even for the listeners at
the time, with everything else going on.

Take out the distractions of the live venue and most people start listening
more critically to the music. After you've heard a performance 5-10 times,
you start remembering where all the glitches and errors and examples of
mediocre or worse musicanship are. The music didn't necesarily change and
nothing worthwhile was necessarily removed by editing and mixing.

In fact, cold hard reality has sunk in.

It was a lot of fun the first time, and maybe even the best thing you ever
played, but it wasn't the greatest performance in the world.

As soon as you produce a recording and pass it around, it starts begging to
be compared to the greatest performances in the world.

Watch out! ;-)
Anonymous
September 2, 2004 11:54:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Sugarite" <nobody@home.com> wrote in message
news:ilyZc.25913$%m4.2252239@read2.cgocable.net...
> > >Why put expensive gear at risk multitracking and fart around
> > > for days mixing, which always ends up throwing "live vibe" out the
> > > window anyway?
> >
> > What expensive gear?
>
> Not sure I should dignify that with a response, but we are talking about a
> laptop-based mutitrack recording rig here...
[snip]

Since I already own the laptop and the digital recording desk with twin ADAT
outputs, this should really be a low cost exercise here - less than 1000 US
dollars, certainly. That is the wonder of technological evolution isn't it,
that we can be talking about a portable multitrack recording facility for
less than you would pay for a nice graphic EQ....

Andrew
Anonymous
September 2, 2004 11:56:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"David" <dclynus@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:T8zZc.86101$X12.6456@edtnps84...
>
> "Andrew B." <bossZZarb25@hotZZmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ch2e8a$hb0$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
> > The rock band I mix for would like to capture some more of the "live"
vibe
> > in their next demo CD. I have done a low tech version of this using a
> Sony
> > Pro Walkman (analogue tape deck) on a separate mix created on the fly
from
> > my Behringer DDX3216 digital mixer - but that is quite intense work when
> you
> > are also keeping track of the FOH sound and delivering 3 monitor mixes,
> > taking booking requests from the audience members (we mainly do
> > weddings/parties) etc etc.
> >
> > Since I have an ADAT card on the desk which gives me 16 channels out
> > (through 2 optical connections) and I own a laptop, I was wondering what
> the
> > most cost-effective way would be to record multitrack to the laptop's
hard
> > disk and then clean it all up using a friends Pro Tools-based editing
> > machine later. The laptop is a 2 year old Toshiba Satellite 5000 with a
> 1.1G
> > processor, 512MB RAM, 30Gb hard disk and has firewire and PCMCIA
> connections
> > (amongst others).
> >
> M audio has a new product out
> www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/FireWire1814-main.html. MOTU also has
> something as well but gossip has it the it can be quite unstable on
certain
> brands of laptops (FWIW).
>
> David
>
Thanks for the information. That looks like a neat box although it only
deals with one ADAT input (8 channels) and costs almost as much as a
digiface + interface.

A
Anonymous
September 2, 2004 11:59:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Sugarite" <nobody@home.com> wrote in message
news:1DgZc.13550$0c.4094@read1.cgocable.net...
> > The rock band I mix for would like to capture some more of the "live"
vibe
> > in their next demo CD.
>
> Then why record off the board? Put up a pair of mics, fer fux sakes. And
> if you can't get the sound working good enough to record live, then there
> isn't much of a show to record is there?
>
>

That would be OK if I could choose where to put the mics but I am going to
be limited by the position of the audience/dance floor. And I don't think I
want to capture that much of the room sound. But I agree that putting
ambience mics into the mix is pretty essential. What mics would you
recommend?
Anonymous
September 4, 2004 5:36:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> > but we are talking
> > about a laptop-based mutitrack recording rig here...
>
> You can't think of any other way to accomplish this, right? I think I
could
> field a working 16 track PC-based recorder at one point this summer and
> maybe even get change from a $1,000 hardware budget. Furthermore it would
be
> robust, and would also be a good studio tool.

I'd like to hear more about that. More about the robustness of PC's below,
but what interface/splitter/pre's would you get for under $1000? Or were
you planning to use direct outputs from the console? They're not always
present, and SR requirements can often comprimise recording. Then there's
the inserts, which are unbalanced and have to be hacked with custom cables,
a dubious process at best, plus there's the aux returns...

Regardless, something tells me either a Behringer ADA8000 or Alesis AI-3 are
involved, which are adequate for a cheap MT rig, but neither are what I
would call robust or good studio tools. I suppose a Motu 24i would be the
way to go, but can't be used with a laptop.

> >> What risk?
>
> > Ask any insurance company for a quote on insuring a location
> > recording rig, compare that to insuring the same gear in a studio.
>
> What do you think would be the minimum investment in the MT recording rig,
> and how does that compare to the value of the other gear on site?

IME a rig using a desktop PC is neither practical nor robust, unless it's
housed in a dedicated shock-mounted road case, which will cost more than all
the PC componentry combined.

Using a laptop is more practical but even less robust, and generally
requires an external Firewire drive. People complain about Toslink
connectors being flimsy, what about the connectors for Firewire, the card
bus breakout box, and the wall-wart power supply? Better or worse? Not to
mention the laptop can't be relied upon to sustain anything but ideal
circumstances during operation no matter how it's racked.

> >> Why must there be days of mixing?
>
> > Not much point in multitracking with a DAW unless you're going to get
> > the most out of it, like manual gating of damn near everything.
> > Minimum 16 tracks x 90 minutes...
>
> I've been known to get a credible mix of 45 minutes of 12 tracks in about
2
> hours. Of course, I'm fairly well-practiced at this. Besides, do you
> seriously think that anybody is going to listen to a 90 minute demo?

Yes, the musicians, their producer, possibly their agent/manager. Why would
you be recording in the first place what won't get heard?

> >> Why does a good job of mixing necessarily throw the "live vibe" out
> >> the window?
>
> > Ask the engineers of countless live albums that sound like half-assed
> > studio albums with an audience track.
>
> I think it's time for some immature musos to own up to the facts about
their
> music. In the cosmic scheme of things, it isn't all that great. When you
> make a recording, that recording begs to be compared in terms of the comic
> scheme of things. The truth outs.

Agreed! NOW we're getting to the heart of the matter.

> It may sound good live when you play it, and maybe even for the listeners
at
> the time, with everything else going on.
>
> Take out the distractions of the live venue and most people start
listening
> more critically to the music. After you've heard a performance 5-10 times,
> you start remembering where all the glitches and errors and examples of
> mediocre or worse musicanship are. The music didn't necesarily change and
> nothing worthwhile was necessarily removed by editing and mixing.
>
> In fact, cold hard reality has sunk in.
>
> It was a lot of fun the first time, and maybe even the best thing you ever
> played, but it wasn't the greatest performance in the world.
>
> As soon as you produce a recording and pass it around, it starts begging
to
> be compared to the greatest performances in the world.

Bingo! This is why I get a lot of business doing simple yet realistic live
recordings for the purpose of self-critique by bands that can't yet
attract/afford a producer. That cold hard reality is the best motivation
and information to hone every aspect of the performance.

Once all aspects are tight enough to pass the puke test, there's a point
where the "live vibe" nuances combine with any minor glitches to actually
enhance the reproduction by lending credibility, and you end up with some
very intriguing and effective promo material.

And it can truly be recorded on a sub-$1k rig including mics, pre's, a/d,
and transport, and post-processing is far less laborious. I've gotten 2.5
hour shows transfered to DAW, tweaked, track-indexed, and onto CD's in under
an hour before. As a result I can offer my services for only about 50% more
than a FOH tech, which includes me doing the FOH mix.

I've also recorded pre-production demos for MT recordings, so the producer
gets my footage quickly and can go over the performance without setting foot
in the studio, and on a few occasions the engineers conceded that I beat the
MT with a stereo mic. Sounds proposterous, but MT audience mics aren't
usually going after what I am, and if the mix comes together well through a
good PA in a good room, there's no need to remix it, and no way to recreate
the live experience so realistically, so the MT never had a chance.

So like I said, if a live performance is worth recording, you should be able
to get what you need from a well-placed stereo mic, especially for demo
purposes. If you can't, then the live vibe required to make glitches work
in the recording's benefit will not be as effective, so getting an MT
recording up to snuff takes a lot more work and costs a shitload more. That
time, energy, and money would be better spent on better techs and gear to
put on a better more recording-friendly show, at which point you can record
show after show for next to nothing.

I call the process "music mirroring", since being a musician without
recordings like these is like putting on make-up without a mirror.
Anonymous
September 4, 2004 6:29:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Sugarite" <nobody@home.com> wrote in message
news:W1n_c.14408$0c.4838@read1.cgocable.net
>>> but we are talking
>>> about a laptop-based mutitrack recording rig here...
>>
>> You can't think of any other way to accomplish this, right? I think I
> could
>> field a working 16 track PC-based recorder at one point this summer
>> and maybe even get change from a $1,000 hardware budget. Furthermore
>> it would be robust, and would also be a good studio tool.
>
> I'd like to hear more about that. More about the robustness of PC's
> below, but what interface/splitter/pre's would you get for under
> $1000? Or were you planning to use direct outputs from the console?

Direct outputs from the console seem to work for me.

> They're not always present, and SR requirements can often comprimise
> recording.

Let me introduce you to the concept of adding a few mics for recording that
never end up being used in the SR mix.

> Then there's the inserts, which are unbalanced and have
> to be hacked with custom cables,

False claim. Two standard cables can be combined to do a fine job.
Unbalanced outputs must not be so bad, after all that's all the RNC has.

>a dubious process at best,

Only for people who lack the ability to make it work well.

> plus there's the aux returns...

Now there's a hard row to hoe. Not a lot of a row, either.

> Regardless, something tells me either a Behringer ADA8000 or Alesis
> AI-3 are involved, which are adequate for a cheap MT rig, but neither
> are what I would call robust or good studio tools.

The voices in your head seem to be working overtime, Sugar.

> I suppose a Motu 24i would be the way to go, but can't be used with a
> laptop.

At this point you're so far out in your own little universe Sugar, that I
decline to comment much further.

>>>> What risk?

>>> Ask any insurance company for a quote on insuring a location
>>> recording rig, compare that to insuring the same gear in a studio.
>>
>> What do you think would be the minimum investment in the MT
>> recording rig, and how does that compare to the value of the other
>> gear on site?
>
> IME a rig using a desktop PC is neither practical nor robust, unless
> it's housed in a dedicated shock-mounted road case, which will cost
> more than all the PC componentry combined.

I thought this was a one-time application to get a demo going. Now it's
supposed to be roadie-proof for an international tour?

<snip addtional equally irrelevant ranting and raving>
Anonymous
September 5, 2004 4:08:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Andrew B." <bossZZarb25@hotZZmail.com> wrote :

> I was wondering what the
> most cost-effective way would be to record multitrack to the laptop's
> hard disk and then clean it all up using a friends Pro Tools-based
> editing
>

I use the RME digiface and have never had any issues using it. I do 24
track recordings withit using my DDX3216 (with ADDA8000 extension) on a
regular basis. I use Samplitude PRO myself, and am quite happy with it!

--
Bill Gates can't guarantee Windows,
how are you gonna guarantee my safety..
--John Crichton - Farscape pilot
Anonymous
September 5, 2004 4:09:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Rob Reedijk <reedijk@hera.med.utoronto.ca> wrote :

> I just suggest this since setting up multitrack recording system on
> a computer often is challenging and you may not have the reliability
> you are hoping for.

Plug in, assign channels, hit record. Setting up a 24 track recording takes
about 10 minutes. And I am not using anything fancy for a laptop (ECS G731)

--
Bill Gates can't guarantee Windows,
how are you gonna guarantee my safety..
--John Crichton - Farscape pilot
Anonymous
September 5, 2004 4:11:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Thomas Bishop" <SPAMAWAYbishopthomas@sbcglobal.net> wrote :

> Quite often. The main thing to consider is that you still have post
> production time.

In fact many people underestimate the time that goes into post production.

--
Bill Gates can't guarantee Windows,
how are you gonna guarantee my safety..
--John Crichton - Farscape pilot
Anonymous
September 5, 2004 4:14:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

EricK <eric@Raw-Tracks.com> wrote :

> Really, get the RME Card Bus adapter with their Multiface interface.
> That is going to be your best bet if you want to record into your

He is using a digital desk (Behringer DDX3216) so he should get the
digiface, which will allow 26 simultaneous tracks.. In fact whenever I do a
recording (I use the same setup) I use anything from 4-24 tracks and the
spdif in for the main mix.

--
Bill Gates can't guarantee Windows,
how are you gonna guarantee my safety..
--John Crichton - Farscape pilot
Anonymous
September 5, 2004 4:20:15 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Sugarite" <nobody@home.com> wrote :

> I'd like to hear more about that. More about the robustness of PC's
> below, but what interface/splitter/pre's would you get for under
> $1000? Or were you planning to use direct outputs from the console?

RME digiface, well under $1000 and offers 26 tracks I/O. the original
poster did specify using a digital desk...

--
Bill Gates can't guarantee Windows,
how are you gonna guarantee my safety..
--John Crichton - Farscape pilot
Anonymous
September 5, 2004 4:21:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Andrew B" <bossarbDELETECAPS25@hotmail.com> wrote :

> Since I already own the laptop and the digital recording desk with
> twin ADAT outputs, this should really be a low cost exercise here -
> less than 1000 US dollars, certainly. That is the wonder of
> technological evolution isn't it,

With decent software you'll run over 1K, but yes the interface is less..
I am VERY happy with my digiface (RME) and Samplitude PRO


--
Bill Gates can't guarantee Windows,
how are you gonna guarantee my safety..
--John Crichton - Farscape pilot
Anonymous
September 5, 2004 4:25:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Andrew B." <bossZZarb25@hotZZmail.com> wrote :

> The laptop is a 2 year old Toshiba Satellite 5000 with a 1.1G
> processor, 512MB RAM, 30Gb hard disk and has firewire and PCMCIA
> connections (amongst others).

I would go for a faster laptop, but when staying <16 chennels and we're
talking P4 here you should be fine.. I run a 2.4 GHz P4 laptop with 512MB
and 60 GB HD and record 26 tracks without any problems..

--
Bill Gates can't guarantee Windows,
how are you gonna guarantee my safety..
--John Crichton - Farscape pilot
Anonymous
September 5, 2004 5:14:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> >>> but we are talking
> >>> about a laptop-based mutitrack recording rig here...
> >>
> >> You can't think of any other way to accomplish this, right? I think I
> > could
> >> field a working 16 track PC-based recorder at one point this summer
> >> and maybe even get change from a $1,000 hardware budget. Furthermore
> >> it would be robust, and would also be a good studio tool.
> >
> > I'd like to hear more about that. More about the robustness of PC's
> > below, but what interface/splitter/pre's would you get for under
> > $1000? Or were you planning to use direct outputs from the console?
>
> Direct outputs from the console seem to work for me.
>
> > They're not always present, and SR requirements can often comprimise
> > recording.
>
> Let me introduce you to the concept of adding a few mics for recording
that
> never end up being used in the SR mix.

First let me introduce you to the concept of not dicing quotes into little
bits, making it near impossible to reply.

And thanks for introducing the concept of room mics, maybe now I'll have a
use for my assortment of matched SDC pairs with shockmounts. But what about
when you've got the 200Hz scooped out of the guitar because the guitarist's
two triple rectifiers are flooding the room with mud? You going to
compensate for that with room mics? That's the sort of thing I was refering
to, where SR requires rather severe adjustments that are inappropriate for
recording.

> > Then there's the inserts, which are unbalanced and have
> > to be hacked with custom cables,
>
> False claim. Two standard cables can be combined to do a fine job.
> Unbalanced outputs must not be so bad, after all that's all the RNC has.

Unbalanced is fine but only for maybe 12'. Never said it was fatal under
all circumstances. And tip-send inserts require that the tip be soldered to
the ring, except with cheaper boards that let you half-insert the cable to
have a non-interrupting direct output, but then they're not very secure and
don't get very good ground contact.

> > Regardless, something tells me either a Behringer ADA8000 or Alesis
> > AI-3 are involved, which are adequate for a cheap MT rig, but neither
> > are what I would call robust or good studio tools.
>
> The voices in your head seem to be working overtime, Sugar.
>
> > I suppose a Motu 24i would be the way to go, but can't be used with a
> > laptop.
>
> At this point you're so far out in your own little universe Sugar, that I
> decline to comment much further.

Ok, I'll bite, what 16-channel interface did you have in mind.

> >>>> What risk?
>
> >>> Ask any insurance company for a quote on insuring a location
> >>> recording rig, compare that to insuring the same gear in a studio.
> >>
> >> What do you think would be the minimum investment in the MT
> >> recording rig, and how does that compare to the value of the other
> >> gear on site?
> >
> > IME a rig using a desktop PC is neither practical nor robust, unless
> > it's housed in a dedicated shock-mounted road case, which will cost
> > more than all the PC componentry combined.
>
> I thought this was a one-time application to get a demo going. Now it's
> supposed to be roadie-proof for an international tour?

This WAS a simple matter of recording the lightpipe outputs of a digital
board to a laptop, next to simple with an RME Hammerfall Digiface. But I
suggested instead putting up a stereo mic and working with that for far less
fuss and expense, then you claimed you could put together a "robust"
PC-based location MT rig for a console's direct outputs or inserts for under
$1k that was also a "good studio tool". Then you brought the attitude.
Anonymous
September 5, 2004 5:40:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> > I'd like to hear more about that. More about the robustness of PC's
> > below, but what interface/splitter/pre's would you get for under
> > $1000? Or were you planning to use direct outputs from the console?
>
> RME digiface, well under $1000 and offers 26 tracks I/O. the original
> poster did specify using a digital desk...

Well Arny was talking about analog inputs.

Still, Digiface + PCMCIA host card + Firewire drive + capable laptop +
software.... $1k at clearance prices maybe.
Anonymous
September 6, 2004 12:49:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Sugarite" <nobody@home.com> wrote :

> Still, Digiface + PCMCIA host card + Firewire drive + capable laptop +
> software.... $1k at clearance prices maybe.

The guy has a laptop which is adequate for the job. And a normal 4200 rpm
internal laptop HD will do 26 track just fine. I should know as I use such
setup every week.

--
Bill Gates can't guarantee Windows,
how are you gonna guarantee my safety..
--John Crichton - Farscape pilot
September 6, 2004 3:04:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Paul van der Heu wrote:
> EricK <eric@Raw-Tracks.com> wrote :
>
>
>>Really, get the RME Card Bus adapter with their Multiface interface.
>>That is going to be your best bet if you want to record into your
>
>
> He is using a digital desk (Behringer DDX3216) so he should get the
> digiface, which will allow 26 simultaneous tracks.. In fact whenever I do a
> recording (I use the same setup) I use anything from 4-24 tracks and the
> spdif in for the main mix.
>

Thanks for pointing that out Paul. I always get those two mixed up. I
was trying to tell the OP to get the one with 24 channels of ADAT I/O, I
just got the name wrong.


--
Eric

Practice Your Mixing Skills
Multi-Track Masters on CD-ROM
www.Raw-Tracks.com
Anonymous
September 7, 2004 4:22:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> > Still, Digiface + PCMCIA host card + Firewire drive + capable laptop +
> > software.... $1k at clearance prices maybe.
>
> The guy has a laptop which is adequate for the job. And a normal 4200 rpm
> internal laptop HD will do 26 track just fine. I should know as I use such
> setup every week.

Yeah, but if you'd stop clipping out relevant info you'd see I was refering
to a claim that Arny made about putting together a PC-based multitrack
recorder capable of recording 16 analog inputs for under $1000, with the
description of "robust" and "a good studio tool".

But getting back to your point, not every laptop with any interface and any
software will record 26 tracks onto an internal 4200rpm drive that also
houses the OS. In fact yours would be the first I've ever heard of. Just
to get 16 tracks working on a dedicated 5400rpm drive can be tricky on a
desktop, never mind a laptop's 4200rpm boot drive.

An 80GB 7200rpm Firewire drive is pretty much a necessity, especially for
minimum 45 minutes straight. A good alternative is a laptop with a second
5400rpm hard drive, but chances are that isn't what he already has, so a FW
drive would be more economical.

But yes, a PCMCIA Digiface and FW drive can be had for under $1000, barely.
Anonymous
September 7, 2004 6:22:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Sugarite" <nobody@home.com> wrote :

> But getting back to your point, not every laptop with any interface
> and any software will record 26 tracks onto an internal 4200rpm drive
> that also houses the OS

Mine is a 'less then up to date' ECS G731 with 'standard' Toshiba 60 GB
drive. Of course the audio is recorded to a separate partition, but
otherwise no special stuff..

I have never encountered any problems with this setup in the 1.5 years I
own and use it.

--
Bill Gates can't guarantee Windows,
how are you gonna guarantee my safety..
--John Crichton - Farscape pilot
Anonymous
September 8, 2004 6:42:55 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Paul van der Heu wrote:

> The guy has a laptop which is adequate for the job. And a normal 4200 rpm
> internal laptop HD will do 26 track just fine. I should know as I use such
> setup every week.


This guy has a laptop that YOU say is adequate for the job, but YOU
failed to specify what hardware and software are running on your setup
every week. This guy's lappy won't do 24 tracks of ProTools onto an
internal 4200RPM drive. I should know as I don't use such a setup every
week. ;) 

[Actually, I have tried this. It don't worketh.]
--
Joel Farris | Q: It reverses the logical flow of conversation.
twinkledust Designs | A: Why is top posting frowned upon?
http://twinkledust.com|
AIM chat: FarrisJoel | "John Kerry: A walking, talking contradiction"
Anonymous
September 8, 2004 11:43:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Joel Farris <this.is.not@valid.address> wrote :

> failed to specify what hardware and software are running on your setup
> every week.

P4 2.4GHz/512MB on ECS G731 laptop running windowsXP PRO.

Software is Samplitude PRO which I'll admit is a hell of a lot more usable
on any given system then protools.. :^)

--
Bill Gates can't guarantee Windows,
how are you gonna guarantee my safety..
--John Crichton - Farscape pilot
Anonymous
September 9, 2004 9:18:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Paul van der Heu <pvdh@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> Rob Reedijk <reedijk@hera.med.utoronto.ca> wrote :

>> I just suggest this since setting up multitrack recording system on
>> a computer often is challenging and you may not have the reliability
>> you are hoping for.

> Plug in, assign channels, hit record. Setting up a 24 track recording takes
> about 10 minutes. And I am not using anything fancy for a laptop (ECS G731)

Happy for you your system works. I still would not do it for anything
critical. I spent Last week I recording a jazz group on location at a
lake using DA88s. The OS never crashed once, not one botched take,
Unlimited capacity with my box of 10 tapes, and all tracks recording
and playback on instantly on line.

I must admit I had a back up system. It was a standalone harddrive recorder.

Rob R.
Anonymous
September 10, 2004 7:28:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Paul van der Heu wrote:

> The software [i'm running] is Samplitude PRO which I'll admit is a hell of a lot more usable
> on any given system then protools.. :^)


Aha, so it can be done. Well, what do you do with your multitracks? Can
you send them off to a posthouse that has Samplitude? Most of the
studios I see have either Tools or Logic. No Samplitude Pro is sight. Is
this a hinderance for you at all?
--
Joel Farris | Q: It reverses the logical flow of conversation.
twinkledust Designs | A: Why is top posting frowned upon?
http://twinkledust.com|
AIM chat: FarrisJoel | "John Kerry: A walking, talking contradiction"
Anonymous
September 11, 2004 1:37:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Joel Farris <this.is.not@valid.address> wrote :

> Aha, so it can be done. Well, what do you do with your multitracks? Can
> you send them off to a posthouse that has Samplitude? Most of the
> studios I see have either Tools or Logic. No Samplitude Pro is sight. Is
> this a hinderance for you at all?

Nope.. produces normal 48KHz/24bit WAV files

load into ProTools or Logic without a hitch. But since I do most post
production myself anyway it's no issue. Samplitude kicks either ones behind
on audio processing anyway :^)

I've been using Samplitude since way back when we did 8 track stuff on the
C= Amiga..

--
Bill Gates can't guarantee Windows,
how are you gonna guarantee my safety..
--John Crichton - Farscape pilot
!