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Why Johnny Can't Play (25 to Life)

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Anonymous
June 28, 2005 7:11:24 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/06/wo/wo_06...

"U.S. Senator Charles Schumer (D-New York) went for the heartstrings on
June 20 when he held a press conference to announce his disdain for the
soon-to-be-released video game 25 To Life. Among those surrounding the
senator was Patrick Lynch, president of the Patrolman's Benevolent
Association, and Rose Nemorin, widow of a New York detective killed in
the line of duty in 2003."

"At issue is the game's violent story line. In it, players decide
whether they want to be a cop or a gangster. If they choose the latter,
in some instances they may actually "kill" police officers. Schumer's
main contention is with the gangsters, such as Freeze, a recently
released bad guy who, during the game's missions, actively targets
police and uses innocent bystanders as human shields in a bloody
shooting spree."

SG

More about : johnny play life

Anonymous
June 28, 2005 2:56:10 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On 28 Jun 2005 03:11:24 -0700, "shegeek72" <taragem72@yahoo.com> wrote:

>http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/06/wo/wo_06...
>
>"U.S. Senator Charles Schumer (D-New York) went for the heartstrings on
>June 20 when he held a press conference to announce his disdain for the
>soon-to-be-released video game 25 To Life. Among those surrounding the
>senator was Patrick Lynch, president of the Patrolman's Benevolent
>Association, and Rose Nemorin, widow of a New York detective killed in
>the line of duty in 2003."
>
>"At issue is the game's violent story line. In it, players decide
>whether they want to be a cop or a gangster. If they choose the latter,
>in some instances they may actually "kill" police officers. Schumer's
>main contention is with the gangsters, such as Freeze, a recently
>released bad guy who, during the game's missions, actively targets
>police and uses innocent bystanders as human shields in a bloody
>shooting spree."
>

An the other hand, choosing the former will create some situations where
players kill or hurt random civilians with no good reason:

"Just another acquittal of police officers who killed a black man"
http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2000/02/26/beatin...

"Commission Report Released on the Death of Victoria Snelgrove"
http://www.saveourcivilliberties.org/en/2005/05/1140.sh...

"Are officers too quick to fire Tasers?"
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_ne...

"Police settle excessive force suit with 71-year-old woman"
http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=66687

(Yes, these stories are a little one-sided, and sowe of these news sites do
have a slant. If you want to make these officers look less guilty, might
as well link to other sites.)

These guys might as well try to ban an extremely viloent RPG game known as
"Real Life", which is infested with extremely violent players.
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 3:28:40 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

shegeek72 wrote:
> http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/06/wo/wo_06...
>
> "U.S. Senator Charles Schumer (D-New York) went for the heartstrings on
> June 20 when he held a press conference to announce his disdain for the
> soon-to-be-released video game 25 To Life. Among those surrounding the
> senator was Patrick Lynch, president of the Patrolman's Benevolent
> Association, and Rose Nemorin, widow of a New York detective killed in
> the line of duty in 2003."
>
> "At issue is the game's violent story line. In it, players decide
> whether they want to be a cop or a gangster. If they choose the latter,
> in some instances they may actually "kill" police officers. Schumer's
> main contention is with the gangsters, such as Freeze, a recently
> released bad guy who, during the game's missions, actively targets
> police and uses innocent bystanders as human shields in a bloody
> shooting spree."

I bet Eidos are absolutley over the moon about this.
Related resources
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 4:09:45 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

The only way to prove that media influences people is to demonstrate
that people are affected on a subconscious level. On a conscious
level, video games allows the user to play out fantasizes that he or
she knows is not possible in real life. This creates the fun factor.
It doesn't create a desire to carry such actions in real life.
June 29, 2005 9:22:48 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"stePH" <acetheta@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:42c2a891_3@x-privat.org...
> "jwb" <jwb3333remove@excite.com> wrote in
> news:LHiwe.28345$IX4.17373@twister.nyc.rr.com:
>
>> Advertising works (yes, even on you). Media can and does influence
>> behavior. The "it's fiction" is a very weak argument only a tiny step
>> above the tired "well, I played it and I didn't want to kill anyone"
>> line that repeatedly gets trotted out.
>>
>> It's much better to support ratings and the game only in the hands of
>> adults than point out it being "fiction" as the argument for it.
>
> I suppose pornography causes people to rape women and molest children too,
> yes?

Being that most porn doesn't depict those two acts, that point is... well...
meaningless.

But are you seriously suggesting media has no influence at all? Because
that's what the stance of "it's fiction" embraces.
June 29, 2005 11:27:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"Doug" <pigdos@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:NsCwe.1353$0V3.643@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> I'll tell you what, advertising DOESN'T work. All my friends and I have
> seen millions of minutes of Budweiser beer commercials but none of us
> drink bud or coors.

Yea, and bud is the biggest selling beer in the world... why is that?

Believe it or not, the world is bigger than "you and your friends".


When I bought a car, the millions of minutes of car commercials
> I've tried not to see didn't make a bit of difference either. Most
> advertising is just meaningless spam that never makes anyone buy anything.

most advertising is not meant to "make" you buy something.

would you buy a no-name car? Or a no-name power tool? Most people would not.
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 12:39:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

stePH wrote:

> At best, it makes the consumer aware that a product exists. I've never
> felt compelled to buy something I've seen advertised.

In advertising repetition is an important factor. Ever get a stupid
jingle stuck in your head? That's what they want. :p  I remember one
time a commercial played over and over again on a radio station (it was
automated) for a local store and they had the best day they ever had.

SG
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 3:19:27 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:17:01 GMT, "Doug" <pigdos@nospam.com> wrote:

>I'll tell you what, advertising DOESN'T work. All my friends and I have seen
>millions of minutes of Budweiser beer commercials but none of us drink bud
>or coors. When I bought a car, the millions of minutes of car commercials
>I've tried not to see didn't make a bit of difference either. Most
>advertising is just meaningless spam that never makes anyone buy anything.

Unfortunately for every person that is not influenced there are probably
10-20 that are, probably more if you count the 'association' purchases
(ever been hungry, seen a Pizza Hut ad and gone reaching for your local
pizza place menu ?).

It's the same with violent games and movies. We'd like to think that the
majority of us don't react in any way beyond the fun of the moment in
watching, but there are some that do.

I think that the problem is that there are those that will be affected,
probably a small minority when it comes to violence, but on the increase
in the youth market that a lot of this is now aimed at (a side effect of
relaxing standards, and a changing world).

To try to ban games because a tiny percentage may then go out on a
killing spree is bad, and is unlikely to stop it happening. Most of
those with violent tendencies and a 'skewed' world view will eventually
succumb at some point in their lives, and do something outside the norm
because something triggers them.

It's finding the balance that they need to do, not nanny all of us on
the off chance. They need to take a look at the wider social problems
and not pick on a scapegoat such as video games.

--
Alfie
<http://www.delphia.co.uk/&gt;
Why do tourists go to the top of tall buildings and then put money in telescopes so they can see things on the ground in close-up ?
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 4:10:10 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"Doug" <pigdos@nospam.com> looked up from reading the entrails of the
porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>I'll tell you what, advertising DOESN'T work. All my friends and I have seen
>millions of minutes of Budweiser beer commercials but none of us drink bud
>or coors. When I bought a car, the millions of minutes of car commercials
>I've tried not to see didn't make a bit of difference either. Most
>advertising is just meaningless spam that never makes anyone buy anything.

What you're forgetting is that there are two kinds of people in the
world, those that can (and do) think, and those that can't (or won't.)

People who can (and do) think make _informed_ decisions, the other type
are affected by advertising and buy what was last shoved into their
limited consciousness.

Non thinkers will call Pizza Hut because of the ads, even if their pizza
is the worst in town.
The thinkers will order from the place that does the best pizza.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 8:10:17 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

stePH wrote:

> There are two kinds of people in the world: those who think that
> there are two kinds of people in the world, and those who know better
> than to divide all people into two basic categories.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and
those who don't.
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 10:43:54 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

Do you have any proof that "Bud is the biggest selling beer in the world"?
Or are you falling for their advertising ;^)

I don't know anyone, anywhere who has bought a car based on any type of
advertising. Do you? Ditto for power tools.

Instead of your opinion, let's see some proof that advertising makes any
significant difference in sales of ANYTHING.


--
there is no .sig
"jwb" <jwb3333remove@excite.com> wrote in message
news:NCCwe.16300$XB2.4127864@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> "Doug" <pigdos@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:NsCwe.1353$0V3.643@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>> I'll tell you what, advertising DOESN'T work. All my friends and I have
>> seen millions of minutes of Budweiser beer commercials but none of us
>> drink bud or coors.
>
> Yea, and bud is the biggest selling beer in the world... why is that?
>
> Believe it or not, the world is bigger than "you and your friends".
>
>
> When I bought a car, the millions of minutes of car commercials
>> I've tried not to see didn't make a bit of difference either. Most
>> advertising is just meaningless spam that never makes anyone buy
>> anything.
>
> most advertising is not meant to "make" you buy something.
>
> would you buy a no-name car? Or a no-name power tool? Most people would
> not.
>
June 30, 2005 11:29:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"Doug" <pigdos@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:K3Xwe.1357$j04.880@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
> Do you have any proof that "Bud is the biggest selling beer in the world"?
> Or are you falling for their advertising ;^)

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&newwindo...

take your pick of the sites. You can put in other search terms if these
sites don't convince you.

>
> I don't know anyone, anywhere who has bought a car based on any type of
> advertising. Do you? Ditto for power tools.


Would you buy a no-name circular saw from a no-name shop? Or a no-name car?


> Instead of your opinion, let's see some proof that advertising makes any
> significant difference in sales of ANYTHING.

see above.

Do you own a business? You'd think differently of advertising if you did.

Ask any pizza place what they think of the yellow pages. Specifically, the
size of the ad (big hint - size matters a lo ;) 

Now, let me ask *you* a question. Bud and Coors both introduce "green beer"
(whatever). Bud backs theirs with a multi-million dollar ad campaign, store
signage, mega TV commercials, a fancy new label, Etc Etc.

Coors does *nothing*. Even the label looks like plain old coors unless you
really read it.

Assuming distribution is the same, which do you think will sell more in a
year?

Just give us your honest opinion.
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 1:42:05 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

Doug wrote:

> I don't see any proof that advertising directly results in significant
> sales. I want to see proof not just opinions or quoting Budweiser's own
> marketing blurbs.

I was once in a local head shop whose manager said his sales increased
40% after starting TV advertising. Advertising is very effective in
generating sales. You may have the most innovative, amazing product in
the world, but if people don't know about it you're not getting many
sales. If advertising didn't work newspapers, TV stations, radio
stations, etc AND spammers would go out of business, and companies
wouldn't pay $1 mil per minute to advertise during the Super Bowl.

SG
July 1, 2005 1:43:14 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"jwb" <jwb3333remove@excite.com> wrote in message
news:VKXwe.32513$IX4.30401@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>
> Just give us your honest opinion.
>

Mind me voicing my opinion?

Dont like pizza, McDonalds or other fast-food joints. Prefer steak and
chips in the pub. Cant stand American 'beers' (aren't they actually
lagers?), bought my Passat cos I saw one when they came out and fell in
love - I'm on my second now. My power tools are mixture of branded and none
branded due purely to what I could afford at the time (the none-branded have
lasted as long as the branded). I have an old Nokia mobile that doesn't
have a camera (I already have a camera - I just want to make phone calls)
and I buy my food from Asda cos it's the closest superstore. I enjoy the
funny adverts or the ones with good music or attractive women in lingerie -
I cannot however ever recall what the adverts were selling. I must be an
advertisers nightmare.

Music-wise I was a biker who grew up on Deep Purple, Zeppelin, Black Sabbath
and Judas Priest - I never heard any satanic messages if I tried to play
them backwards and they never gave me the urge to go out and rape and
pillage.

Gaming-wise I've played violent games since Wolf 3D and like nothing better
of an evening than blowing some poor buggers head off. I have never ever
felt the urge to do that in real life - in fact murder or violence in
real-life (on the news and in the papers) sickens me. I am constantly
amazed at some of the things people will do to each other - naive maybe.

Having said all that I guess that there are folk out there that are swayed
by advertising. That there were teenagers who heard messages in Juday
Priests songs played backwards. That there are people out there who may
have urges to do sickening things strengthened by games.

They will however do it regardless - they dont 'need' games - never have.
Man has been quite capable of dreaming of ways to inflict torture and pain
for several thousand years.

My 2cents.
July 1, 2005 3:15:51 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On 29 Jun 2005 12:09:45 -0700, alvinstraight38@hotmail.com wrote:

> On a conscious
>level, video games allows the user to play out fantasizes that he or
>she knows is not possible in real life.

Unfortunately killing cops can be done in real life and if even one
num nuts out there is influence to try it in real life then that's one
too many.
July 1, 2005 3:31:57 AM

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"Hank the Rapper" <xflopgoon@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4NmdneT0E_jY81nfRVn-iw@comcast.com...
> stePH wrote:
>
>> There are two kinds of people in the world: those who think that
>> there are two kinds of people in the world, and those who know better
>> than to divide all people into two basic categories.
>
> There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and
> those who don't.
>
>
Lol, the old ones are the best ones.
July 1, 2005 3:34:59 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:19:27 +0100, "Alfie [UK]" <me@privacy.net>
wrote:

>I think that the problem is that there are those that will be affected,
>probably a small minority when it comes to violence, but on the increase
>in the youth market that a lot of this is now aimed at (a side effect of
>relaxing standards, and a changing world).
>
>To try to ban games because a tiny percentage may then go out on a
>killing spree is bad, and is unlikely to stop it happening. Most of
>those with violent tendencies and a 'skewed' world view will eventually
>succumb at some point in their lives, and do something outside the norm
>because something triggers them.
>
>It's finding the balance that they need to do, not nanny all of us on
>the off chance. They need to take a look at the wider social problems
>and not pick on a scapegoat such as video games.

But part of the "social problem " may be video games.

Look at it this way. When I was 6 to 10 years old I grew up basically
learning that the "Bad" guys always lost and the Good Guys always won.
I got this from the media of the day. Movies, TV, Games etc etc

Now days I would be learning that the Bad guys doesn't always lose
that the Bad guy can kill the good guy and get away. Again this comes
from the media of today. Movies, TV and now life like Video games.

If you don't think this has an influence on young minds your sadly
mistaken.

Oh well Flame away.
July 1, 2005 3:42:55 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:27:41 GMT, "jwb" <jwb3333remove@excite.com>
wrote:

>most advertising is not meant to "make" you buy something.

All of it is meant to "sell" you something though.
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 8:02:54 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

What the hell is a no-name car? Is that a brand or model? Like I said, tell
me ONE person who has bought a new car SOLELY based on advertising. All you
have to do is name one.

I don't see any proof that advertising directly results in significant
sales. I want to see proof not just opinions or quoting Budweiser's own
marketing blurbs.

I bought a no-name 2.5 ton floor jack based on the quality I observed.

--
there is no .sig
"jwb" <jwb3333remove@excite.com> wrote in message
news:VKXwe.32513$IX4.30401@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>>
>> I don't know anyone, anywhere who has bought a car based on any type of
>> advertising. Do you? Ditto for power tools.
>
>
> Would you buy a no-name circular saw from a no-name shop? Or a no-name
> car?
>
>
>> Instead of your opinion, let's see some proof that advertising makes any
>> significant difference in sales of ANYTHING.
>
> see above.
>
> Do you own a business? You'd think differently of advertising if you did.
>
> Ask any pizza place what they think of the yellow pages. Specifically, the
> size of the ad (big hint - size matters a lo ;) 
>
> Now, let me ask *you* a question. Bud and Coors both introduce "green
> beer" (whatever). Bud backs theirs with a multi-million dollar ad
> campaign, store signage, mega TV commercials, a fancy new label, Etc Etc.
>
> Coors does *nothing*. Even the label looks like plain old coors unless you
> really read it.
>
> Assuming distribution is the same, which do you think will sell more in a
> year?
>
> Just give us your honest opinion.
>
July 1, 2005 10:27:23 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

<noone@home.net> wrote in message
news:D se9c1l4oucp5opdhbi21lgjbco0qot01r@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:27:41 GMT, "jwb" <jwb3333remove@excite.com>
> wrote:
>
>>most advertising is not meant to "make" you buy something.
>
> All of it is meant to "sell" you something though.

absolutely.
July 1, 2005 10:54:15 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"Doug" <pigdos@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:o f3xe.35480$J12.7532@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
> What the hell is a no-name car? Is that a brand or model? Like I said,
> tell me ONE person who has bought a new car SOLELY based on advertising.
> All you have to do is name one.
>

why are you adding the word "soley"? That wasn't what you said. And it also
changes your entire argument. You said nobody... ah hell, I'll just copy it.

You said: "I don't know anyone, anywhere who has bought a car based on any
type of advertising"

"based on any type of advertising"... that means they used NO advertising at
all. That was your argument, remember??


> I don't see any proof that advertising directly results in significant
> sales.

"directly?" You did it again. You're changing your entire argument.

you originally said

"I'll tell you what, advertising DOESN'T work."

That was your argument, because you and your friends....

Now you say "directly"... you are seriously changing your tune.


>I want to see proof not just opinions or quoting Budweiser's own marketing
>blurbs.

What more proof do you want? I posted a google link with over 600 sites.
They were not all AB or quoting them. Not even close. There were plenty of
links to plenty of "beer" sites that all say the same thing. That Budweiser
is the world's best selling beer.

Tell me, since you are soooo adamant, what *is* the world's best selling
beer (you're starting to really sound silly, so here's your easy out - go
ahead and say you don't have to provide it and exit the conversation)


>
> I bought a no-name 2.5 ton floor jack based on the quality I observed.
>
> --
> there is no .sig

> "jwb" <jwb3333remove@excite.com> wrote in message
> news:VKXwe.32513$IX4.30401@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>>>
>>> I don't know anyone, anywhere who has bought a car based on any type of
>>> advertising. Do you? Ditto for power tools.
>>
>>
>> Would you buy a no-name circular saw from a no-name shop? Or a no-name
>> car?
>>
>>
>>> Instead of your opinion, let's see some proof that advertising makes any
>>> significant difference in sales of ANYTHING.
>>
>> see above.
>>
>> Do you own a business? You'd think differently of advertising if you did.
>>
>> Ask any pizza place what they think of the yellow pages. Specifically,
>> the size of the ad (big hint - size matters a lo ;) 
>>
>> Now, let me ask *you* a question. Bud and Coors both introduce "green
>> beer" (whatever). Bud backs theirs with a multi-million dollar ad
>> campaign, store signage, mega TV commercials, a fancy new label, Etc Etc.
>>
>> Coors does *nothing*. Even the label looks like plain old coors unless
>> you really read it.
>>
>> Assuming distribution is the same, which do you think will sell more in a
>> year?
>>
>> Just give us your honest opinion.
>>
>
>
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 6:17:35 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

You said advertising works, you were going on and on about no-name cars so
prove it. Prove to me someone has bought a car based purely on advertising.
I didn't even specify used or new. Can't do it eh? I'm sure there are rich
people where that might be the only consideration, but for the REST of the
world buying a car solely based on advertising would be insane. Can you tie
even ONE car sale to paid advertising (i.e. not word of mouth, but
deliberate advertising). I can see how someone might see a new kind of pizza
on the TV and buy one, but I can't see someone seeing ANY car advertising
and going out and buying that car/truck etc.

How many people have gone out and bought a case or six-pack of budweiser
after seeing a beer commercial? Anyone out there raising their hands? Guess
not.

--
there is no .sig
"jwb" <jwb3333remove@excite.com> wrote in message
news:rM5xe.32715$IX4.11349@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> "Doug" <pigdos@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:o f3xe.35480$J12.7532@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>> What the hell is a no-name car? Is that a brand or model? Like I said,
>> tell me ONE person who has bought a new car SOLELY based on advertising.
>> All you have to do is name one.
>>
>
> why are you adding the word "soley"? That wasn't what you said. And it
> also changes your entire argument. You said nobody... ah hell, I'll just
> copy it.
>
> You said: "I don't know anyone, anywhere who has bought a car based on any
> type of advertising"
>
> "based on any type of advertising"... that means they used NO advertising
> at all. That was your argument, remember??
>
>
>> I don't see any proof that advertising directly results in significant
>> sales.
>
> "directly?" You did it again. You're changing your entire argument.
>
> you originally said
>
> "I'll tell you what, advertising DOESN'T work."
>
> That was your argument, because you and your friends....
>
> Now you say "directly"... you are seriously changing your tune.
>
>
>>I want to see proof not just opinions or quoting Budweiser's own marketing
>>blurbs.
>
> What more proof do you want? I posted a google link with over 600 sites.
> They were not all AB or quoting them. Not even close. There were plenty of
> links to plenty of "beer" sites that all say the same thing. That
> Budweiser is the world's best selling beer.
>
> Tell me, since you are soooo adamant, what *is* the world's best selling
> beer (you're starting to really sound silly, so here's your easy out - go
> ahead and say you don't have to provide it and exit the conversation)
>
>
>>
>> I bought a no-name 2.5 ton floor jack based on the quality I observed.
>>
>> --
>> there is no .sig
>
>> "jwb" <jwb3333remove@excite.com> wrote in message
>> news:VKXwe.32513$IX4.30401@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>>>>
>>>> I don't know anyone, anywhere who has bought a car based on any type of
>>>> advertising. Do you? Ditto for power tools.
>>>
>>>
>>> Would you buy a no-name circular saw from a no-name shop? Or a no-name
>>> car?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Instead of your opinion, let's see some proof that advertising makes
>>>> any significant difference in sales of ANYTHING.
>>>
>>> see above.
>>>
>>> Do you own a business? You'd think differently of advertising if you
>>> did.
>>>
>>> Ask any pizza place what they think of the yellow pages. Specifically,
>>> the size of the ad (big hint - size matters a lo ;) 
>>>
>>> Now, let me ask *you* a question. Bud and Coors both introduce "green
>>> beer" (whatever). Bud backs theirs with a multi-million dollar ad
>>> campaign, store signage, mega TV commercials, a fancy new label, Etc
>>> Etc.
>>>
>>> Coors does *nothing*. Even the label looks like plain old coors unless
>>> you really read it.
>>>
>>> Assuming distribution is the same, which do you think will sell more in
>>> a year?
>>>
>>> Just give us your honest opinion.
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
July 1, 2005 8:25:24 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

"Doug" <pigdos@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3gcxe.37994$J12.16139@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
> You said advertising works, you were going on and on about no-name cars so
> prove it.

I know I did. And you (listen carefully now) claimed it didn't. At all.

> Prove to me someone has bought a car based purely on advertising.

There you go again - "purely"... that wasn't your argument. And the opposite
was never mine.You are changing your argument.

I never claimed people saw an ad and went right out and bought a car. That
isn't how most advertising works. Advertising creates brand awareness.


> I didn't even specify used or new. Can't do it eh? I'm sure there are rich
> people where that might be the only consideration, but for the REST of the
> world buying a car solely based on advertising would be insane.

Listen carefully - nobody buys a car "soley" on advertising. Had you said
that in the beginning, I would have agreed with you. I claimed that
adveretising *does* influence and _you disagreed with that_. Never, not
once, even implied that anyone bought a car SOLEY on advertising.

However, you *did* claim that advertising did NOT work. That nobody buys a
car based on ANY avdertising.

But now you throw the word "soley" in there... your original (dumb)
statement is still here for everyone to see - argue off of your original
assertion, or don't argue at all. Because changing your tune is a loser
move.


Can you tie
> even ONE car sale to paid advertising (i.e. not word of mouth, but
> deliberate advertising). I can see how someone might see a new kind of
> pizza on the TV and buy one, but I can't see someone seeing ANY car
> advertising and going out and buying that car/truck etc.


That's not how it works. Advertising (especially for things like cars) is
meant to let you know the brands exists, to create a positive image, etc
etc. That's been my take all along.

And you want proof? I think the BILLIONS spent on ads is better proof than
"you and your friends".


>
> How many people have gone out and bought a case or six-pack of budweiser
> after seeing a beer commercial? Anyone out there raising their hands?
> Guess not.

Again, for the dense, that's not how it works.

Here's my original assertion upon entering this thread:

"But are you seriously suggesting media has no influence at all?"

and here was your witty, insightful reply

"I'll tell you what, advertising DOESN'T work."

argue off of that - don't change your argument midstream by adding words
like "soley" in there. It really makes you look bad.

What do you do for a living? I'm betting it has nothing to do with those
pesky words and numbers and thinks like, oh I dunno... turning a profit.

JWB

>
> --
> there is no .sig
> "jwb" <jwb3333remove@excite.com> wrote in message
> news:rM5xe.32715$IX4.11349@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>> "Doug" <pigdos@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:o f3xe.35480$J12.7532@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>>> What the hell is a no-name car? Is that a brand or model? Like I said,
>>> tell me ONE person who has bought a new car SOLELY based on advertising.
>>> All you have to do is name one.
>>>
>>
>> why are you adding the word "soley"? That wasn't what you said. And it
>> also changes your entire argument. You said nobody... ah hell, I'll just
>> copy it.
>>
>> You said: "I don't know anyone, anywhere who has bought a car based on
>> any type of advertising"
>>
>> "based on any type of advertising"... that means they used NO advertising
>> at all. That was your argument, remember??
>>
>>
>>> I don't see any proof that advertising directly results in significant
>>> sales.
>>
>> "directly?" You did it again. You're changing your entire argument.
>>
>> you originally said
>>
>> "I'll tell you what, advertising DOESN'T work."
>>
>> That was your argument, because you and your friends....
>>
>> Now you say "directly"... you are seriously changing your tune.
>>
>>
>>>I want to see proof not just opinions or quoting Budweiser's own
>>>marketing blurbs.
>>
>> What more proof do you want? I posted a google link with over 600 sites.
>> They were not all AB or quoting them. Not even close. There were plenty
>> of links to plenty of "beer" sites that all say the same thing. That
>> Budweiser is the world's best selling beer.
>>
>> Tell me, since you are soooo adamant, what *is* the world's best selling
>> beer (you're starting to really sound silly, so here's your easy out - go
>> ahead and say you don't have to provide it and exit the conversation)
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I bought a no-name 2.5 ton floor jack based on the quality I observed.
>>>
>>> --
>>> there is no .sig
>>
>>> "jwb" <jwb3333remove@excite.com> wrote in message
>>> news:VKXwe.32513$IX4.30401@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know anyone, anywhere who has bought a car based on any type
>>>>> of advertising. Do you? Ditto for power tools.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Would you buy a no-name circular saw from a no-name shop? Or a no-name
>>>> car?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Instead of your opinion, let's see some proof that advertising makes
>>>>> any significant difference in sales of ANYTHING.
>>>>
>>>> see above.
>>>>
>>>> Do you own a business? You'd think differently of advertising if you
>>>> did.
>>>>
>>>> Ask any pizza place what they think of the yellow pages. Specifically,
>>>> the size of the ad (big hint - size matters a lo ;) 
>>>>
>>>> Now, let me ask *you* a question. Bud and Coors both introduce "green
>>>> beer" (whatever). Bud backs theirs with a multi-million dollar ad
>>>> campaign, store signage, mega TV commercials, a fancy new label, Etc
>>>> Etc.
>>>>
>>>> Coors does *nothing*. Even the label looks like plain old coors unless
>>>> you really read it.
>>>>
>>>> Assuming distribution is the same, which do you think will sell more in
>>>> a year?
>>>>
>>>> Just give us your honest opinion.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
!