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A/D Convertor/Mic Pre for Nomad JB3??

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September 14, 2004 3:27:22 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hello all,

I don't post much here, mostly lurk when at work. So here is my first
question.

I'm about to get a JB3 for live recording stuff. And was wondering if
anyone had any recomendations for a A/D convertor/Mic Pre. i've seen
people using the Udirol UA5. Anything else I should look at that has
the optical out the JB3 uses.

Thanks

Andrew
Anonymous
September 14, 2004 6:44:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

andrew.brown@computershare.com.au (Andrew) writes:

> Hello all,
>
> I don't post much here, mostly lurk when at work. So here is my first
> question.
>
> I'm about to get a JB3 for live recording stuff. And was wondering if
> anyone had any recomendations for a A/D convertor/Mic Pre. i've seen
> people using the Udirol UA5. Anything else I should look at that has
> the optical out the JB3 uses.
>
> Thanks
>
> Andrew

I've got a (stock) Edirol UA5. It has digital outputs, yet, but they
are not connected directly. You need a PC (USB port) to capture the
audio.

To get direct digital output you need to *hack* the box for "standalone
digital operation". It is easy, but you have to open the box and solder one
wire. I haven't tried this, but the link is at:
http://members.rogers.com/traderdave/audio/UA-5/Modifyi...

Or you can get OADE brothers to do it I think.

Question: There is a new box, Edirol UA25. It looks smaller and nicer (and
has a compressor in it). I don't know if it can be powered with an external
battery (it uses USB I know), or if it has a standalone digital output. If anyone has experience with it, please post here...

Richard
Anonymous
September 14, 2004 10:56:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Andrew" <andrew.brown@computershare.com.au> wrote in message
news:10fb3f36.0409132227.2c462f8a@posting.google.com
> Hello all,
>
> I don't post much here, mostly lurk when at work. So here is my first
> question.
>
> I'm about to get a JB3 for live recording stuff. And was wondering if
> anyone had any recomendations for a A/D convertor/Mic Pre. i've seen
> people using the Udirol UA5. Anything else I should look at that has
> the optical out the JB3 uses.

IME an external A/D is not that important for a JB3 because the line inputs
are really pretty good - over 90 dB SNR and frequency response within a few
tenths.

I do remote recording with a JB3 and a Behringer MXB-1002.
Related resources
Anonymous
September 14, 2004 12:42:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <10fb3f36.0409132227.2c462f8a@posting.google.com> andrew.brown@computershare.com.au writes:

> I'm about to get a JB3 for live recording stuff. And was wondering if
> anyone had any recomendations for a A/D convertor/Mic Pre.

I'm in the same situation (had the Jukebox for quite some time now)
and I haven't found a satisfactory solution. For me, it's not so much
about sound, but convenience and reliability.

I had a Core Sound MicPre 24/96 for evaluation and it worked fine with
the Jukebox, providing reasonably clean and quiet mic preamps with XLR
inputs, decent A/D conversion, phantom power, and battery operation,
but I just couldn't bring myself to adding it to my portable recording
suite. I continue to use the analog line input on the Jukebox (which
isn't all that bad) and either borrow a line level output wherever I'm
recording or carry along my Mackie 1402 VLZ Pro mixer if I need my own
mic inputs.

My primary problem with the Core Sound preamp was too much haywire.
The secondary problem was the cost. I just can't bring myself to
spending nearly twice the price of the recorder on a mic preamp.

To clarify about the haywire - it's not with the preamp itself, but in
using it with the Jukebox. You need at minimum a lightpipe cable going
between the MicPre output and the Jukebox input. Since there's a
limited bend radius for that stuff, it can only be so short, and a
short fiber optic cable is a bit stiff, particulary since on the
Jukebox end it's going into that sleazy mini phone jack. Then you need
either an adapter (comes with the preamp) or special cables to connect
the mics (XLRs) to the preamp. And if you want to use it on AC power,
there's a wall wart. That's too many cables going in too many
directions to make for a compact and reliable small footprint system.

I'm still in the waiting mode. I like the idea of the Sound Devices
and Fostex portable digital recorders, (the Fostex is about half the
price of the Sound Devices) but since media is a la carte with those,
I'm waiting to see what's going to happen - will media be cheap enough
(and large enough in capacity) to make the price of the package
attractive before the next design comes along?

The Jukebox 3 is a fantastic buy for a recorder - it's more than a
good buy for the money, it's a good buy for the function if you can
live with a few risks and do your own system assembly. At this point
I'm willing to live with its internal converters, use an analog mic
preamp, and pray that the mini jack doesn't fail.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
September 14, 2004 6:15:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Andrew <andrew.brown@computershare.com.au> wrote:

>I'm about to get a JB3 for live recording stuff. And was wondering if
>anyone had any recomendations for a A/D convertor/Mic Pre. i've seen
>people using the Udirol UA5. Anything else I should look at that has
>the optical out the JB3 uses.

The JB3 has been discontinued.

That said, for a good outboard mic pre/A-to-D for the JB3 you might
consider the Denecke AD-20. See our Web page for details.

Or, if you plan to upgrade to 24-bit/96 KS/s some day, need 48 Volt
phantom power, or need metering, you might consider our Mic2496. Again,
please see our Web page for details.

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
moskowit@core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912
Anonymous
September 14, 2004 6:20:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote:

> ...Since there's a limited bend radius for that stuff, it can only be
>so short, and a short fiber optic cable is a bit stiff, particulary
>since on the Jukebox end it's going into that sleazy mini phone
>jack. ...

A plastic optical cable can take a one-inch radius bend with no problems.
A six-inch cable between a mic pre/A-to-D and the JB3 still is very
flexible.

>I'm still in the waiting mode. I like the idea of the Sound Devices
>and Fostex portable digital recorders, (the Fostex is about half the
>price of the Sound Devices) but since media is a la carte with those,
>I'm waiting to see what's going to happen - will media be cheap enough
>(and large enough in capacity) to make the price of the package
>attractive before the next design comes along?

A 2GB compact flash memory card (3 hours at 16/44.1, 2 hours at 24/48 or
1 hour at 24/96) is now selling for $137.

We posted a comparison of the Fostex FR-2, Marantz PMD670 and our
PDAudio system on our Web page:

http://www.core-sound.com/comparison-pdaudio-pmd-670-fr...

We'll add the Sound Devices 722 when it becomes available.

--
Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
moskowit@core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912
Anonymous
September 14, 2004 10:17:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <ci7cpa$osh$1@panix2.panix.com> moskowit@panix.com writes:

> A plastic optical cable can take a one-inch radius bend with no problems.
> A six-inch cable between a mic pre/A-to-D and the JB3 still is very
> flexible.

I've never seen one that short, but I guess you make 'em.

> A 2GB compact flash memory card (3 hours at 16/44.1, 2 hours at 24/48 or
> 1 hour at 24/96) is now selling for $137.

Still, that would mean that I'd need to use more than one a day. With
the Jukebox, I can record as much music as I can stand in a day, or
maybe even get through a weekend without unloading it. While removable
media is nice (gee, just like tape) that's about 10x the cost of a
DAT - too expensive to store on the shelf. If I could get a three-hour
card for $15, I'd probably be tempted to use that for "archival"
storage and then hope to heck I can find something to read it in
another couple of years.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
September 14, 2004 11:08:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I use a M Audio Audiosport Duo. You can do both analog or digital out and
works in "standalone" mode so no computer is necessary. I get great results
recording my band. It needs AC Power however.

Rick
"Len Moskowitz" <moskowit@panix.com> wrote in message
news:ci7cg9$he5$1@panix2.panix.com...
>
> Andrew <andrew.brown@computershare.com.au> wrote:
>
> >I'm about to get a JB3 for live recording stuff. And was wondering if
> >anyone had any recomendations for a A/D convertor/Mic Pre. i've seen
> >people using the Udirol UA5. Anything else I should look at that has
> >the optical out the JB3 uses.
>
> The JB3 has been discontinued.
>
> That said, for a good outboard mic pre/A-to-D for the JB3 you might
> consider the Denecke AD-20. See our Web page for details.
>
> Or, if you plan to upgrade to 24-bit/96 KS/s some day, need 48 Volt
> phantom power, or need metering, you might consider our Mic2496. Again,
> please see our Web page for details.
>
> --
> Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio
> Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com
> Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com
> moskowit@core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912
Anonymous
September 15, 2004 2:55:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 14 Sep 2004 18:17:43 -0400, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers)
wrote:

>Still, that would mean that I'd need to use more than one a day. With
>the Jukebox, I can record as much music as I can stand in a day, or
>maybe even get through a weekend without unloading it. While removable
>media is nice (gee, just like tape) that's about 10x the cost of a
>DAT - too expensive to store on the shelf. If I could get a three-hour
>card for $15, I'd probably be tempted to use that for "archival"
>storage and then hope to heck I can find something to read it in
>another couple of years.

Which prompts the question: when semiconductor memory gets cheap
enough for long-term storage, will its working parts be so small
as to need lead shielding, or some such?

And, can the charge be maintained for years without refresh?

Thanks,

Chris Hornbeck
" ** this NG is chock full of metal midgets"
Anonymous
September 15, 2004 10:33:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <oftek05rhik79t72u5eq5v9rofr412tc9k@4ax.com> chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net writes:

> Which prompts the question: when semiconductor memory gets cheap
> enough for long-term storage, will its working parts be so small
> as to need lead shielding, or some such?

I dunno. That's one for the manufacturers to answer, and Dave's not
here. It might be interesting, if anyone reads photography newsgroups,
what those people think about storing their photos on memory cards, or
if they're all copying to CD and re-using the memory. One thought that
I had about the flash card recorders when I was asked to make a
recommendation for the Library of Congress Folklife Center
(replacement for DAT - they're hanging on to their cassette recorders
for dear life). When they do a field project, they often go to
someplace like a ranch in Nevada and stay there for three months. It
would be a real burden to have to, at the end of the day, dump flash
card memory to CD (or a couple of CDs just for safety's sake). The
cards themselves are too expensive to store, and besides, they're too
small to write on. There's barely room to write a number so you can
index them to a log sheet.

> And, can the charge be maintained for years without refresh?

I don't know what makes those non-volatile things non-volatile. Makes
me wish some times that we still had magnetic core memory.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
September 18, 2004 5:05:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> > I'm about to get a JB3 for live recording stuff. And was wondering if
> > anyone had any recomendations for a A/D convertor/Mic Pre. i've seen
> > people using the Udirol UA5. Anything else I should look at that has
> > the optical out the JB3 uses.
>
> IME an external A/D is not that important for a JB3 because the line
inputs
> are really pretty good - over 90 dB SNR and frequency response within a
few
> tenths.
>
> I do remote recording with a JB3 and a Behringer MXB-1002.

Same here, but when AC is available I use a DBX 386, which has dual-servo
class A mosfet preamps, tube circuits with 200V plates, and 24/96 A/D
similar to that in the Digi002, and a digital peak limiter that emulates
tape but can't possibly clip, goes for under $300 used. Not the finest unit
in the world, but it greatly out-classes op-amp starved plate wall-wart
power supply junk.

The MXB1002 is very handy for low-volume situations, but it goes through 9V
batteries rather fast, and at loud shows I plug my Rode NT4 (self-powered,
minijack cable included) right into the line input and it's actually cleaner
than using the mixer's preamps. The MXB1002's pre's are still a big step up
from built-in pre's in consumer portable DAT's, so it's certainly $99 well
spent.

Contrary to the specs, which were probably generated without a hard drive
present, the NJB3's line input suffers from some noise introduced by hard
drive operations which is apparent during quiet passages. IME the practical
SNR of the line inputs is maybe 60dB at best, which is acceptable for a loud
show in a crowded room for a hobbyist recording or pre-production demo,
provided you get the input level right. It would help if the input level
meters were more precise so the inputs could be clipped slightly for more
dynamic range, but that's not the case.

But with a decent front-end, the NJB3 is a very capable and extremely
convenient HDR.
Anonymous
September 18, 2004 5:24:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> To clarify about the haywire - it's not with the preamp itself, but in
> using it with the Jukebox.

I know just what you mean. I use a DBX 386 -> "grey box" coax/optical
adapter -> NJB3, and sitting on top of a rack it ain't cute, but the case I
made to hold everything (and keep the adapter hidden) looks reasonably pro
and takes a beating.
Anonymous
September 18, 2004 10:39:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Sugarite" <nobody@home.com> wrote in message
news:jlP2d.3415$eL6.462@read1.cgocable.net

> Contrary to the specs, which were probably generated without a hard
> drive present, the NJB3's line input suffers from some noise
> introduced by hard drive operations which is apparent during quiet
> passages.

I actually did my own tests. Wav files were involved so the disk was
spinning and seeking away at a good clip.

>IME the practical SNR of the line inputs is maybe 60dB at
> best, which is acceptable for a loud show in a crowded room for a
> hobbyist recording or pre-production demo, provided you get the input
> level right.

If you keep the levels up, the line inputs can beat 80 dB. I first reported
my informal test results about a year ago:

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=PtCdnfN-nMhRLtLdRVn-v...

"No sweat in the case of NJB3. Its line inputs have about 85 dB SNR and
20-20 KHz response at less than 0.5 dB down if you optimize its input levels
in a logical way - operate its
input at 0 dB gain. The NHB3's line inputs have good enough SNR and
sufficient gain reserves that some people turn up the gain, add a little
boost in the analog domain, and make relatively noise-free

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=c-ycnV4oU5BJtauiXTWJi...

"I did a retest, and found that if you supply the analog
audio to the line input NJB3 at a peak level of 2.25 volts RMS, which allows
you to record with the NJB3 gain control at 0 dB, you get unweighted zero
signal noise that is about 85 dB down.

> It would help if the input level meters were more
> precise so the inputs could be clipped slightly for more dynamic
> range, but that's not the case.

No need, the analog inputs have plenty of headroom for remote recording.

> But with a decent front-end, the NJB3 is a very capable and extremely
> convenient HDR.

IME, more than capable.
Anonymous
September 18, 2004 2:01:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <jlP2d.3415$eL6.462@read1.cgocable.net> nobody@home.com writes:

> > I do remote recording with a JB3 and a Behringer MXB-1002.
>
> Same here, but when AC is available I use a DBX 386, which has dual-servo
> class A mosfet preamps, tube circuits with 200V plates, and 24/96 A/D
> similar to that in the Digi002, and a digital peak limiter that emulates
> tape but can't possibly clip, goes for under $300 used.

And does it sound better? Can you try to explain in what way?

> Contrary to the specs, which were probably generated without a hard drive
> present, the NJB3's line input suffers from some noise introduced by hard
> drive operations which is apparent during quiet passages.

I've checked out the Jukebox with the input shorted (you certainly
don't get much quieter than that, particularly in a live recording
situation) and didn't see or hear any noise resulting from the drive.
But then I always record WAV files rather than MP3. Seems like I
remember reading something about with MP3 recording, the drive starts
and stops but it runs continuously when recording uncompressed. Maybe
that's where you're having this difficulty?

> SNR of the line inputs is maybe 60dB at best, which is acceptable for a loud
> show in a crowded room for a hobbyist recording or pre-production demo,

That used to be pretty good for anyone. My but how times have changed.

> provided you get the input level right. It would help if the input level
> meters were more precise so the inputs could be clipped slightly for more
> dynamic range, but that's not the case.

That's for sure. The think I learned from the beginning is that you
NEVER drop the record level on the Jukebox below 0 dB if you need to
drop the level as shown on the meters. The nice thing about recording
with an external preamp or mixer with meters on it is that you can
cross-calibrate the Jukebox's meters with the mixer/preamp's and then
you have a scale you can read.

> But with a decent front-end, the NJB3 is a very capable and extremely
> convenient HDR.

Agreed.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
September 18, 2004 8:34:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> >IME the practical SNR of the line inputs is maybe 60dB at
> > best, which is acceptable for a loud show in a crowded room for a
> > hobbyist recording or pre-production demo, provided you get the input
> > level right.
>
> If you keep the levels up, the line inputs can beat 80 dB. I first
reported
> my informal test results about a year ago:
>
> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=PtCdnfN-nMhRLtLdRVn-v...
> http://www.google.com/groups?selm=c-ycnV4oU5BJtauiXTWJi...
>
> > It would help if the input level meters were more
> > precise so the inputs could be clipped slightly for more dynamic
> > range, but that's not the case.
>
> No need, the analog inputs have plenty of headroom for remote recording.

I suppose I misspoke. I should have said 60dB of practical dynamic range.
With inadequate metering, you've got leave 20dB or so of headroom above the
RMS level to be safe.

> > But with a decent front-end, the NJB3 is a very capable and extremely
> > convenient HDR.
>
> IME, more than capable.

Well it's still only 16/48 no matter what front-end you put on it. It's the
convenience that makes it such a bargain.
Anonymous
September 18, 2004 10:52:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> > > I do remote recording with a JB3 and a Behringer MXB-1002.
> >
> > Same here, but when AC is available I use a DBX 386, which has
dual-servo
> > class A mosfet preamps, tube circuits with 200V plates, and 24/96 A/D
> > similar to that in the Digi002, and a digital peak limiter that emulates
> > tape but can't possibly clip, goes for under $300 used.
>
> And does it sound better? Can you try to explain in what way?

Compared to the MXB1002 using the NJB3 line input, the 386 is night-and-day
better in every regard. The pre's and ADC are much cleaner and more
detailed, the tube circuit really helps take the harshness out of PA
compression horns in particular, and the metering and limiter take the
guesswork out of setting input level. All the analog operations are
studio-caliber, the NJB3 just puts the digits on the hard drive, and it's
proven to be bit-perfect at doing so in my tests.
!