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More Questions About Cables

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September 19, 2004 1:22:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Sorry everyone. I realize this topic has probably been posted a lot,
but through searches, I can't seem to find the exact answer that I'm
looking for. Any opinions would be appreciated.

I can understand the "general" concept of cables.

Instrument cable: shielded, to prevent noise, generally small, as not
"a lot" of current is passing through; example: guitar to guitar amp.

Speaker cable: unsheilded, usually larger diameter for more current
passage; example: PA amp to main speaker.

If my perception I've listed above is incorrect, please forgive me and
enlighten me.

But if I have the right concept, please answer which cable to use:

1)From mixing board to power amp - instrument(sheilded) or
speaker(unsheilded)?

2)From mixing board to effects processor - instrument or speaker?

3)From monitor amp to mixing board - instrument or speaker?

4)From guitar amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?

5)From bass amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?

More about : questions cables

Anonymous
September 19, 2004 3:24:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike, speaker cables to, , , , speakers.

Mike wrote:

> Sorry everyone. I realize this topic has probably been posted a lot,
> but through searches, I can't seem to find the exact answer that I'm
> looking for. Any opinions would be appreciated.
>
> I can understand the "general" concept of cables.
>
> Instrument cable: shielded, to prevent noise, generally small, as not
> "a lot" of current is passing through; example: guitar to guitar amp.
>
> Speaker cable: unsheilded, usually larger diameter for more current
> passage; example: PA amp to main speaker.
>
> If my perception I've listed above is incorrect, please forgive me and
> enlighten me.
>
> But if I have the right concept, please answer which cable to use:
>
> 1)From mixing board to power amp - instrument(sheilded) or
> speaker(unsheilded)?
>
> 2)From mixing board to effects processor - instrument or speaker?
>
> 3)From monitor amp to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
>
> 4)From guitar amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
>
> 5)From bass amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
Anonymous
September 19, 2004 10:17:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Keep it simple:

1. Between the output of a power amp and a speaker,
one typically uses unshielded speaker cable.

2. ALL other connections (mic level, line level, etc.)
take shielded cable.

3. Some connections (like e-guitar inputs) take special
high-impedance shielded cable.

Note that powered speakers fall under rule #2. They are
typically "line-level".
Related resources
Anonymous
September 19, 2004 10:22:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike wrote:

> Sorry everyone. I realize this topic has probably been posted a lot,
> but through searches, I can't seem to find the exact answer that I'm
> looking for. Any opinions would be appreciated.

If it's actually connected to a speaker cabinet you use speaker cable.

All other application use shielded cable.


Graham
Anonymous
September 19, 2004 11:13:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike" <MCDrumman@excite.com> wrote in message
news:997eda1f.0409182022.63961f03@posting.google.com

> Sorry everyone. I realize this topic has probably been posted a lot,
> but through searches, I can't seem to find the exact answer that I'm
> looking for. Any opinions would be appreciated.

> I can understand the "general" concept of cables.

> Instrument cable: shielded, to prevent noise, generally small, as not
> "a lot" of current is passing through; example: guitar to guitar amp.

This cable generally has one shielded 18-24 gauge conductor, braid or foil
shielding and 1/4" phone plugs at each end.

> Speaker cable: unshielded, usually larger diameter for more current
> passage; example: PA amp to main speaker.

This cable generally has two unshielded 12-18 gauge conductors, and either
1/4" phone plugs, dual banana plugs, or Speakon plugs, mix or match, at each
end.

> If my perception I've listed above is incorrect, please forgive me and
> enlighten me.

You left out the third kind of cable which is actually the most common - the
mic or line-level cable.

Mic or line level cable: two 18-24 gauge conductors, braid or foil shielded
to prevent noise, generally small, as not "a lot" of current is passing
through; example: microphone to preamplifier, or mixing console to power
amplifier.

Note braid shield is preferred for use where there is a lot of flexing, foil
can be used for installed cables with little flexing. There may be more than
one layer of shields, and a shielded conductor may be composed of 2 parallel
wires.

This cable generally has two shielded conductors, TRS plugs or XLR
connectors, mix or match.

> But if I have the right concept, please answer which cable to use:

> 1)From mixing board to power amp - instrument(shielded) or
> speaker(unshielded)?

Mic or line level cable:

> 2)From mixing board to effects processor - instrument or speaker?

Mic or line level cable:

3)From mixing board to monitor amp - instrument or speaker?

Mic or line level cable:

> 4)From guitar amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?

Mic or line level cable, or perhaps an instrument cable.

> 5)From bass amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?

Mic or line level cable, or perhaps an instrument cable.
September 19, 2004 1:25:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<414D179F.E96B353D@hotmail.com>...
> Mike wrote:
>
> > Sorry everyone. I realize this topic has probably been posted a lot,
> > but through searches, I can't seem to find the exact answer that I'm
> > looking for. Any opinions would be appreciated.
>
> If it's actually connected to a speaker cabinet you use speaker cable.
>
> All other application use shielded cable.
>
>
> Graham

Ok, this makes some sense. But why do I need to use shielded cables
for the other connections I mentioned earlier? Since shielded cables
are instrument cables, the only time I can see to use it is for an
instrument, as in my example guitar to guitar amp.
Anonymous
September 19, 2004 1:51:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Arny Krueger wrote:



>>Speaker cable: unshielded, usually larger diameter for more current
>>passage; example: PA amp to main speaker.
>
>
> This cable generally has two unshielded 12-18 gauge conductors, and either
> 1/4" phone plugs, dual banana plugs, or Speakon plugs, mix or match, at each
> end.

Not true. Most speaker cables have "nothing" on the ends, just bare
wire. At least when you add consumer use into the equation, which would
dwarf professional use.
Anonymous
September 19, 2004 4:24:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Richard Crowley wrote:

>Keep it simple:
>
>1. Between the output of a power amp and a speaker,
>one typically uses unshielded speaker cable.
>
>2. ALL other connections (mic level, line level, etc.)
>take shielded cable.

So far, so good.

>3. Some connections (like e-guitar inputs) take special
>high-impedance shielded cable.

There is simply no such thing. Cables suitable for electric guitars may
be designed to exhibit low handling noise but are otherwise no different,
especially with regard to impedance, from those suitable for any low level,
unbalanced signal application.

>Note that powered speakers fall under rule #2. They are
>typically "line-level".

--
========================================================================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
mkesti@gv.net | - The Who, Bargain
Anonymous
September 19, 2004 8:58:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>> 3. Some connections (like e-guitar inputs) take special
>> high-impedance shielded cable.

"Michael R. Kesti" wrote ...
> There is simply no such thing.

Of course there is. Many manufacturers make shielded cable
designed specifically for high-impedance (i.e. e-guitar) use.

> Cables suitable for electric guitars may be designed to exhibit
> low handling noise but are otherwise no different, especially
> with regard to impedance, from those suitable for any low level,
> unbalanced signal application.

Quite to the contrary. You will find that cables made for high-
impedance applications are designed to have significantly
lower capacitance than the kinds of cables we normally use
for conventional line- or mic-level applications. Using just
any old conventional shielded cable in a hi-Z application
caries a significant risk of high-frequency loss due to the
source impedance and the cable capacitance.

Perhaps you were thinking that we are talking about matched-
impedance transmission lines such as used for RF and high-
speed digital (like 110-ohm digital audio, 75-ohm video,
etc.)
Anonymous
September 19, 2004 10:44:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 19 Sep 2004 09:25:47 -0700, MCDrumman@excite.com (Mike) wrote:

>
>Ok, this makes some sense. But why do I need to use shielded cables
>for the other connections I mentioned earlier? Since shielded cables
>are instrument cables, the only time I can see to use it is for an
>instrument, as in my example guitar to guitar amp.

All instrument cables are shielded cables. But not all shielded
cables are instrument cables.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
Anonymous
September 19, 2004 10:49:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike wrote:

> Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<414D179F.E96B353D@hotmail.com>...
> > Mike wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry everyone. I realize this topic has probably been posted a lot,
> > > but through searches, I can't seem to find the exact answer that I'm
> > > looking for. Any opinions would be appreciated.
> >
> > If it's actually connected to a speaker cabinet you use speaker cable.
> >
> > All other application use shielded cable.
> >
> >
> > Graham
>
> Ok, this makes some sense. But why do I need to use shielded cables
> for the other connections I mentioned earlier? Since shielded cables
> are instrument cables, the only time I can see to use it is for an
> instrument, as in my example guitar to guitar amp.

Your association of shielding purely with *instrument leads* is is a misunderstanding.

Shielding is most critical with low level signals, high impedance signals or unbalanced signals but it's
simplest to use shielded cable for *all* interconnections since it avoids problems.

You probably *could* run a line level balanced signal anywhere without shielding and get acceptable results -
but why bother, when the same XLR shielded cable works equally well for this application as it does for a mic
cable ?

Even computer data cable are normally shielded.

There are of course - variations of shielded cables that use different methods of shielding. These tend to be
application specific for optimum performance - but this is more advanced stuff.


Graham
Anonymous
September 19, 2004 10:58:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pete Dimsman wrote:

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
> >>Speaker cable: unshielded, usually larger diameter for more current
> >>passage; example: PA amp to main speaker.
> >
> >
> > This cable generally has two unshielded 12-18 gauge conductors, and either
> > 1/4" phone plugs, dual banana plugs, or Speakon plugs, mix or match, at each
> > end.
>
> Not true. Most speaker cables have "nothing" on the ends, just bare
> wire. At least when you add consumer use into the equation, which would
> dwarf professional use.

But this newsgroup is .pro !

Actually, Arny left out XLRs on speaker leads. Prior to the introduction of
Speakons, most pros used XLRs for speakers ( 3 pin version has 15A rating and
decent size solder buckets ) . Many still do - especially for stage monitors imho.

Indeed XLRs are way better speaker connections than 1/4" jacks due to larger
contact area. Use a 1/4" jack for a few hundred watts and it'll get hot due to
contact resistance.

It would be *very* non-pro to use wire ends for live use.

Graham
Anonymous
September 19, 2004 10:58:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear wrote:
> Pete Dimsman wrote:
>
>
>>Arny Krueger wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Speaker cable: unshielded, usually larger diameter for more current
>>>>passage; example: PA amp to main speaker.
>>>
>>>
>>>This cable generally has two unshielded 12-18 gauge conductors, and either
>>>1/4" phone plugs, dual banana plugs, or Speakon plugs, mix or match, at each
>>>end.
>>
>>Not true. Most speaker cables have "nothing" on the ends, just bare
>>wire. At least when you add consumer use into the equation, which would
>>dwarf professional use.
>
>
> But this newsgroup is .pro !

Doesn't change the facts.
Anonymous
September 19, 2004 10:58:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear wrote:


> But this newsgroup is .pro !

Perhaps you should re-read the original post.
September 20, 2004 12:49:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

MCDrumman@excite.com (Mike) wrote in message news:<997eda1f.0409182022.63961f03@posting.google.com>...
> Sorry everyone. I realize this topic has probably been posted a lot,
> but through searches, I can't seem to find the exact answer that I'm
> looking for. Any opinions would be appreciated.
>
> I can understand the "general" concept of cables.
>
> Instrument cable: shielded, to prevent noise, generally small, as not
> "a lot" of current is passing through; example: guitar to guitar amp.
>
> Speaker cable: unsheilded, usually larger diameter for more current
> passage; example: PA amp to main speaker.
>
> If my perception I've listed above is incorrect, please forgive me and
> enlighten me.
>
> But if I have the right concept, please answer which cable to use:
>
> 1)From mixing board to power amp - instrument(sheilded) or
> speaker(unsheilded)?
>
> 2)From mixing board to effects processor - instrument or speaker?
>
> 3)From monitor amp to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
>
> 4)From guitar amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
>
> 5)From bass amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?

Comon' people.....I know the answer's out there somewhere whithin you
all. I'm not a pro, I just jam in a bar band. Perhaps I should have
posted to different group. But I haven't gotten ANY concrete answers
from this group!!!! Are you guys pros?

I apologize. I'm not trying to be a smartass, I just want to know FOR
SURE which cables to use where. Please read my original post and tell
me. Thanks!!!!
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 1:59:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pete Dimsman wrote:

> Pooh Bear wrote:
>
> > But this newsgroup is .pro !
>
> Perhaps you should re-read the original post.

Why would that make a difference ?

It's about instrument amps and stuff. You don't use wire ends on them
either !

Only hi-fi ppl and idiots use bare ends ( where 'whiskers' can short out
nicely ).

You *can* find the use of 'connectorless' connections on some permanent
audio installs however where the like of Phoenix etc terminal blocks are
provided for signal level connections ( see QSC contractor products for
example ).

Permanent install contractors do this to save the cost of connectors.
I'll bet they put a crimp lug on the speaker wires though before
tightening up the output terminals.


Graham
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 1:59:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear wrote:

>>>But this newsgroup is .pro !
>>
>>Perhaps you should re-read the original post.
>
>
> Why would that make a difference ?

I think you missed the point. The poster's question would not indicate
very much "pro" experience.


> It's about instrument amps and stuff. You don't use wire ends on them
> either ! Only hi-fi ppl and idiots use bare ends ( where 'whiskers' can short out
> nicely ).



Wrong, it is about speaker use versus everything else. The everything
else would almost always use connecters, most commonly 1/4" or xlr,
though bare wires are used on screw terminals on many pro pieces and
patch bays.

The speaker use would in no way exclude bare wires, even for your
worshiped "pro" use.

Many (all?) "pro" monitor speakers have facilities for bare wire hook
up. I have some where I use banana plugs, others I have wired with bare
wire. So, I guess I'm an idiot.
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 2:01:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Michael R. Kesti" wrote:

> Richard Crowley wrote:
>
> >Keep it simple:
> >
> >1. Between the output of a power amp and a speaker,
> >one typically uses unshielded speaker cable.
> >
> >2. ALL other connections (mic level, line level, etc.)
> >take shielded cable.
>
> So far, so good.
>
> >3. Some connections (like e-guitar inputs) take special
> >high-impedance shielded cable.
>
> There is simply no such thing. Cables suitable for electric guitars may
> be designed to exhibit low handling noise

Yes.

> but are otherwise no different,
> especially with regard to impedance, from those suitable for any low level,
> unbalanced signal application.

Low capacitance.


Graham
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 2:40:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pete Dimsman wrote:

> Pooh Bear wrote:
>
> >>>But this newsgroup is .pro !
> >>
> >>Perhaps you should re-read the original post.
> >
> >
> > Why would that make a difference ?
>
> I think you missed the point. The poster's question would not indicate
> very much "pro" experience.
>
> > It's about instrument amps and stuff. You don't use wire ends on them
> > either ! Only hi-fi ppl and idiots use bare ends ( where 'whiskers' can short out
> > nicely ).
>
> Wrong, it is about speaker use versus everything else. The everything
> else would almost always use connecters, most commonly 1/4" or xlr,
> though bare wires are used on screw terminals on many pro pieces and
> patch bays.

But not on instrument amps, mixers or processing gear that the OP mentioned.


> The speaker use would in no way exclude bare wires, even for your
> worshiped "pro" use.
>
> Many (all?) "pro" monitor speakers have facilities for bare wire hook
> up. I have some where I use banana plugs, others I have wired with bare
> wire. So, I guess I'm an idiot.

Stuffing bare wire up the hole in a 4mm terminal requires small gauge wire and risks the
dreaded whiskers..

Far bettter to put a crimp lug on the bare end.


Graham
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 2:40:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear wrote:

> Far bettter to put a crimp lug on the bare end.

Agreed.

Look, I wasn't tying to start an argument, just pointing out that bare
wire use *is* an option, even if there are usually better options.

And I am quite sure you would find it on the back of speakers in plenty
of "pro" studios.
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 2:40:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Pete Dimsman" <pd@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:2r6derF15umoaU1@uni-berlin.de...

> Look, I wasn't tying to start an argument, just pointing out that bare
> wire use *is* an option, even if there are usually better options.
>
> And I am quite sure you would find it on the back of speakers in plenty
> of "pro" studios.
>
Umm, I have a studio and my Radio Shack speakers use bare wire connectors.

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 3:42:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Dave Martin wrote:

> "Pete Dimsman" <pd@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:2r6derF15umoaU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> > Look, I wasn't tying to start an argument, just pointing out that bare
> > wire use *is* an option, even if there are usually better options.
> >
> > And I am quite sure you would find it on the back of speakers in plenty
> > of "pro" studios.
>
> Umm, I have a studio and my Radio Shack speakers use bare wire connectors.

The OP posted about instrument amps, mixers, processors, PA amps, amp direct
outs, instrument speaker cabs - in fact just about everything that would never
use bare ends.

In what capacity do you use your Radio Shack speakers in a 'pro' studio ? Like
Auratones I guess ?


Graham
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 3:42:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear wrote:

> In what capacity do you use your Radio Shack speakers in a 'pro' studio ? Like
> Auratones I guess ?

There were some Optimus models that were useful mix checkers. And if you
haven't visited Java Jive on the web, you should. Like good outbaird
kit? JJ offers a heavy drool coefficient.

--
ha
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 3:42:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:414E0B52.1CA8B1D8@hotmail.com...

> In what capacity do you use your Radio Shack speakers in a 'pro' studio ?
Like
> Auratones I guess ?
>
yep.

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 4:36:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

hank alrich wrote:

> Pooh Bear wrote:
>
> > In what capacity do you use your Radio Shack speakers in a 'pro' studio ? Like
> > Auratones I guess ?
>
> There were some Optimus models that were useful mix checkers. And if you
> haven't visited Java Jive on the web, you should. Like good outbaird
> kit? JJ offers a heavy drool coefficient.

I had a quick peek.


Graham
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 8:06:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 19 Sep 2004 20:49:35 -0700, MCDrumman@excite.com (Mike) wrote:

>Comon' people.....I know the answer's out there somewhere whithin you
>all. I'm not a pro, I just jam in a bar band. Perhaps I should have
>posted to different group. But I haven't gotten ANY concrete answers
>from this group!!!! Are you guys pros?
>
>I apologize. I'm not trying to be a smartass, I just want to know FOR
>SURE which cables to use where. Please read my original post and tell
>me. Thanks!!!!

"How many times have we seen upon the cheek of the person with whom we
are talking the horse that was passing in the distance. Our bodies
penetrate the sofas on which we sit, and the sofas penetrate our
bodies, just as the tram that passes enters the houses, which in their
turn throw themselves upon the tram and are merged with it."
-Futurist Manifesto, 1910

Chris Hornbeck
"The Ancient World overlooked the invention of machines not through
stupidity nor through superficiality. It turned them into playthings
in order to avoid repugnance." - Hanns Sachs 1942
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 9:34:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike wrote:

> Comon' people.....I know the answer's out there somewhere whithin you
> all. I'm not a pro, I just jam in a bar band. Perhaps I should have
> posted to different group. But I haven't gotten ANY concrete answers
> from this group!!!! Are you guys pros?

Yes.

I answered your question precisely.

You use speaker cable to connect to speakers and shielded cable for everything else.

You may want to use *special types* of shielded cable in specific instances but all your examples only
needed the ordinary stuff.

Ok ?


Graham
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 10:41:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Pete Dimsman" <pd@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:2r5knfF16uh9hU1@uni-berlin.de
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>
>
>>> Speaker cable: unshielded, usually larger diameter for more current
>>> passage; example: PA amp to main speaker.

>> This cable generally has two unshielded 12-18 gauge conductors, and
>> either 1/4" phone plugs, dual banana plugs, or Speakon plugs, mix or
>> match, at each end.

> Not true.

True in the context of a conference related to profesional audio.

True in the context of the origional post.

>Most speaker cables have "nothing" on the ends, just bare wire.

No wonder you blather so steadily about politics Dimsman, you apparently
have no interest and no involvement in professional audio or audio
production.

> At least when you add consumer use into the equation, which would dwarf
> professional use.

You might want to try pushing that kind of trash in rec.audio.opinion, it
won't sell here. However, even audiophiles terminate their speaker cables as
a rule. Watch them argue over the relative merits of banana jacks versus
pins.
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 11:53:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <10ks79b1unc3035@corp.supernews.com> rcrowley7@xprt.net writes:

> You will find that cables made for high-
> impedance applications are designed to have significantly
> lower capacitance than the kinds of cables we normally use
> for conventional line- or mic-level applications. Using just
> any old conventional shielded cable in a hi-Z application
> caries a significant risk of high-frequency loss due to the
> source impedance and the cable capacitance.

Oh, it's not quite that bad. And in fact, the lowest capacitance cable
is that designed for digital audio (AES/EBU). The thing you need to
watch out for in guitar cables - high impedance source, high impedance
input unbalanced input - is inadequate shielding and excessive
handling noise. You can always lower the capacitive loading by using a
shorter cable (stand closer to your amplifier).


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
September 20, 2004 12:08:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<414E5DB9.186B0BA2@hotmail.com>...
> Mike wrote:
>
> > Comon' people.....I know the answer's out there somewhere whithin you
> > all. I'm not a pro, I just jam in a bar band. Perhaps I should have
> > posted to different group. But I haven't gotten ANY concrete answers
> > from this group!!!! Are you guys pros?
>
> Yes.
>
> I answered your question precisely.
>
> You use speaker cable to connect to speakers and shielded cable for everything else.
>
> You may want to use *special types* of shielded cable in specific instances but all your examples only
> needed the ordinary stuff.
>
I apologize. You did indeed answer my question. I was just getting
confused with all the other opinions.

Let me ask a question to your answer. The part about connecting the
speakers with speaker cables is crystal clear. But SHOULD I use
sheilded cables for the other connections? Would it be unwise to use
an unsheilded speaker cable for the other connections? Say connecting
a power amp to a mixing board for example.
> Ok ?
>
>
> Graham
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 12:44:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike wrote:

> Comon' people.....I know the answer's out there somewhere whithin you
> all. I'm not a pro, I just jam in a bar band. Perhaps I should have
> posted to different group. But I haven't gotten ANY concrete answers
> from this group!!!! Are you guys pros?
>
> I apologize. I'm not trying to be a smartass, I just want to know FOR
> SURE which cables to use where. Please read my original post and tell
> me. Thanks!!!!

Are you serious? Your question was answered numerous times. You use the
unshielded speaker cable to run between a power amp and speaker.
Everything else uses the shielded cable.
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 12:55:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Pete Dimsman" <pd@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:2r5knfF16uh9hU1@uni-berlin.de
>
>>Arny Krueger wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Speaker cable: unshielded, usually larger diameter for more current
>>>>passage; example: PA amp to main speaker.
>
>
>>>This cable generally has two unshielded 12-18 gauge conductors, and
>>>either 1/4" phone plugs, dual banana plugs, or Speakon plugs, mix or
>>>match, at each end.
>
>
>>Not true.
>
>
> True in the context of a conference related to profesional audio.

No, plenty of "professional audio" monitors have bare wire connections.
I am not saying this is the best way, but it is reality.


> True in the context of the origional post.

The original poster sounds *far* from a professional audio participant
to me.


>>Most speaker cables have "nothing" on the ends, just bare wire.
>
>
> No wonder you blather so steadily about politics Dimsman, you apparently
> have no interest and no involvement in professional audio or audio
> production.

And what is your great involvement? A quick search of your name in All
Music comes up blank.


>
>>At least when you add consumer use into the equation, which would dwarf
>>professional use.
>
>
> You might want to try pushing that kind of trash in rec.audio.opinion, it
> won't sell here. However, even audiophiles terminate their speaker cables as
> a rule. Watch them argue over the relative merits of banana jacks versus
> pins.

My argument stands. Audiophiles are but a small section of audio speaker
users.

I should have added that my conclusion may not be totally correct as
many users now use computers for their music which typically have 1/8
inch connectors on thier supplied speaker wires. So maybe "most" is no
longer correct.

But, I stand by my contention that bare wire speaker connections are
still not uncommon.

(and what do you want to bet that a majority of people who set up
surround sound systems are still sticking bare wire into the terminal
connectors of their speakers?)
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 1:57:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <997eda1f.0409191949.76697b0c@posting.google.com> MCDrumman@excite.com writes:

> > But if I have the right concept, please answer which cable to use:
> >
> > 1)From mixing board to power amp - instrument(sheilded) or
> > speaker(unsheilded)?

Shielded

> > 2)From mixing board to effects processor - instrument or speaker?

Shielded

> > 3)From monitor amp to mixing board - instrument or speaker?

Shielded

> > 4)From guitar amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?

Shielded

> > 5)From bass amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?

Shielded

> Comon' people.....I know the answer's out there somewhere whithin you
> all. I'm not a pro, I just jam in a bar band. Perhaps I should have
> posted to different group. But I haven't gotten ANY concrete answers
> from this group!!!! Are you guys pros?

Concrete enough?

The thing is that once you get out the door of the music store, there
aren't "instrument" and "speaker" cables, there are cables (which is
just the wire) and cable assemblies which has connectors attached to
the wires. It's the "assembly" that makes a piece of single conductor
shielded cable with 1/4" phone plugs on each end an "instrument cable"
and a piece of two-conductor shielded cable with a male XLR connector
on one end and a female XLR connector on the other end a "mic cable."
But, it's true, that we tend to shorten "cable assembly" to "cable"
when we know what we're talking about, and tend to explain to someone
who wants to know about a "cable assembly" but asks about "cable" what
the difference is, often never getting around to the application.

There are many different designs for cables (Belden has a catalog
that's half an inch thick) - different gages of wire, different types
and sizes of insulation, different types of shielding, different
methods of laying the wires together inside the cable - each is better
for some particular manufacturer. If you don't want to learn about all
of this and build your own cable assemblies (having a very good stock
of bulk cable and connectors on hand) you trust the companies that
sell cable assemblies to have chosen a reasonable cable type for the
intended application. An "instrument cable" will have particularly
good shielding, perhaps low capacitance, low handling noise (the cable
can act as a microphone) and will be very robust since guitarists tend
to abuse their cables.

These things tend to make a good instrument cable expensive, and you
may not need all of those characteristics to connect the output of a
mixer to the input of a power amplifier (since this is generally a
higher signal level with a low impedance source and less sensitive to
hum pickup, the loading effect of cable capacitance, and doesn't get
swung around by its connectors as much as an instrument cable. But an
instrument cable will certainly work in that application.

Is that more than you wanted to know?


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 1:57:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Excellent. As usual, Mike has gone out of his way to put together a
beautiful explanation. Though, with this poster's attitude, I'm not so
sure he deserved it.

Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article <997eda1f.0409191949.76697b0c@posting.google.com> MCDrumman@excite.com writes:
>
>
>>>But if I have the right concept, please answer which cable to use:
>>>
>>>1)From mixing board to power amp - instrument(sheilded) or
>>>speaker(unsheilded)?
>
>
> Shielded
>
>
>>>2)From mixing board to effects processor - instrument or speaker?
>
>
> Shielded
>
>
>>>3)From monitor amp to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
>
>
> Shielded
>
>
>>>4)From guitar amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
>
>
> Shielded
>
>
>>>5)From bass amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
>
>
> Shielded
>
>
>>Comon' people.....I know the answer's out there somewhere whithin you
>>all. I'm not a pro, I just jam in a bar band. Perhaps I should have
>>posted to different group. But I haven't gotten ANY concrete answers
>>from this group!!!! Are you guys pros?
>
>
> Concrete enough?
>
> The thing is that once you get out the door of the music store, there
> aren't "instrument" and "speaker" cables, there are cables (which is
> just the wire) and cable assemblies which has connectors attached to
> the wires. It's the "assembly" that makes a piece of single conductor
> shielded cable with 1/4" phone plugs on each end an "instrument cable"
> and a piece of two-conductor shielded cable with a male XLR connector
> on one end and a female XLR connector on the other end a "mic cable."
> But, it's true, that we tend to shorten "cable assembly" to "cable"
> when we know what we're talking about, and tend to explain to someone
> who wants to know about a "cable assembly" but asks about "cable" what
> the difference is, often never getting around to the application.
>
> There are many different designs for cables (Belden has a catalog
> that's half an inch thick) - different gages of wire, different types
> and sizes of insulation, different types of shielding, different
> methods of laying the wires together inside the cable - each is better
> for some particular manufacturer. If you don't want to learn about all
> of this and build your own cable assemblies (having a very good stock
> of bulk cable and connectors on hand) you trust the companies that
> sell cable assemblies to have chosen a reasonable cable type for the
> intended application. An "instrument cable" will have particularly
> good shielding, perhaps low capacitance, low handling noise (the cable
> can act as a microphone) and will be very robust since guitarists tend
> to abuse their cables.
>
> These things tend to make a good instrument cable expensive, and you
> may not need all of those characteristics to connect the output of a
> mixer to the input of a power amplifier (since this is generally a
> higher signal level with a low impedance source and less sensitive to
> hum pickup, the loading effect of cable capacitance, and doesn't get
> swung around by its connectors as much as an instrument cable. But an
> instrument cable will certainly work in that application.
>
> Is that more than you wanted to know?
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 3:20:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike <MCDrumman@excite.com> wrote:
>
>Let me ask a question to your answer. The part about connecting the
>speakers with speaker cables is crystal clear. But SHOULD I use
>sheilded cables for the other connections? Would it be unwise to use
>an unsheilded speaker cable for the other connections? Say connecting
>a power amp to a mixing board for example.

Yes. Using an unshielded cable would be a very bad idea, as several people
have told you. You will have problems with noise pickup.

You might want to read the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook, which is a
nice introduction to this sort of thing.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 5:17:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 05:34:01 +0100, Pooh Bear
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Mike wrote:
>
>> Comon' people.....I know the answer's out there somewhere whithin you
>> all. I'm not a pro, I just jam in a bar band. Perhaps I should have
>> posted to different group. But I haven't gotten ANY concrete answers
>> from this group!!!! Are you guys pros?
>
> Yes.
>
> I answered your question precisely.
>
> You use speaker cable to connect to speakers and shielded cable for
> everything else.
>
> You may want to use *special types* of shielded cable in specific
> instances but all your examples only needed the ordinary stuff.
>
> Ok ?

Indeed. You can buy shielded cable with most any current capacity you
can imagine. We used it on laser power system (Pulse Forming Network)
to handle 5000A at 2500V.

But most sound reinforcement requirements that's overkill
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 7:34:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <997eda1f.0409200708.24eb0da6@posting.google.com> MCDrumman@excite.com writes:

> Would it be unwise to use
> an unsheilded speaker cable for the other connections? Say connecting
> a power amp to a mixing board for example.

In general, yes, but in an emergency you might be able to get away
with it. If the output of the mixer is balanced properly, the input to
the mixer is balanced (differential), and you wire them up together
correctrly you shouldn't have a problem with hum pickup and the signal
will get where it's supposed to go. I once used a piece of lamp cord
to connect a microphone, but that doesn't mean I'd recommend that
anyone else do it.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 7:58:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike wrote:

> I apologize. I'm not trying to be a smartass, I just want to know FOR
> SURE which cables to use where. Please read my original post and tell
> me. Thanks!!!!

You didn't read your own post, wherein your description in the beginning
answers your own questions. Is it something that needs shielded cable or
is it not something that needs shielded cable? Now look at your list.

"Pros" expect that you, too, will invest some thinking here.

--
ha
Anonymous
September 20, 2004 8:26:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike" <MCDrumman@excite.com> wrote in message
news:997eda1f.0409200708.24eb0da6@posting.google.com...

> I apologize. You did indeed answer my question. I was just getting
> confused with all the other opinions.
>
> Let me ask a question to your answer. The part about connecting the
> speakers with speaker cables is crystal clear. But SHOULD I use
> sheilded cables for the other connections? Would it be unwise to use
> an unsheilded speaker cable for the other connections? Say connecting
> a power amp to a mixing board for example.

Yes, it would be unwise to use an unshielded speaker cable for that. I've
done it, in an emergency, and gotten away with it by sheer dumb luck, but
you run the risk of picking up radio frequency interference (RFI) which can
cause all sorts of grief.

Peace,
Paul
September 21, 2004 1:24:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Thanks Mike. That sure was in depth, but I think I get the picture. Thanks again.

mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1095683104k@trad>...
> In article <997eda1f.0409191949.76697b0c@posting.google.com> MCDrumman@excite.com writes:
>
> > > But if I have the right concept, please answer which cable to use:
> > >
> > > 1)From mixing board to power amp - instrument(sheilded) or
> > > speaker(unsheilded)?
>
> Shielded
>
> > > 2)From mixing board to effects processor - instrument or speaker?
>
> Shielded
>
> > > 3)From monitor amp to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
>
> Shielded
>
> > > 4)From guitar amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
>
> Shielded
>
> > > 5)From bass amp line out to mixing board - instrument or speaker?
>
> Shielded
>
> > Comon' people.....I know the answer's out there somewhere whithin you
> > all. I'm not a pro, I just jam in a bar band. Perhaps I should have
> > posted to different group. But I haven't gotten ANY concrete answers
> > from this group!!!! Are you guys pros?
>
> Concrete enough?
>
> The thing is that once you get out the door of the music store, there
> aren't "instrument" and "speaker" cables, there are cables (which is
> just the wire) and cable assemblies which has connectors attached to
> the wires. It's the "assembly" that makes a piece of single conductor
> shielded cable with 1/4" phone plugs on each end an "instrument cable"
> and a piece of two-conductor shielded cable with a male XLR connector
> on one end and a female XLR connector on the other end a "mic cable."
> But, it's true, that we tend to shorten "cable assembly" to "cable"
> when we know what we're talking about, and tend to explain to someone
> who wants to know about a "cable assembly" but asks about "cable" what
> the difference is, often never getting around to the application.
>
> There are many different designs for cables (Belden has a catalog
> that's half an inch thick) - different gages of wire, different types
> and sizes of insulation, different types of shielding, different
> methods of laying the wires together inside the cable - each is better
> for some particular manufacturer. If you don't want to learn about all
> of this and build your own cable assemblies (having a very good stock
> of bulk cable and connectors on hand) you trust the companies that
> sell cable assemblies to have chosen a reasonable cable type for the
> intended application. An "instrument cable" will have particularly
> good shielding, perhaps low capacitance, low handling noise (the cable
> can act as a microphone) and will be very robust since guitarists tend
> to abuse their cables.
>
> These things tend to make a good instrument cable expensive, and you
> may not need all of those characteristics to connect the output of a
> mixer to the input of a power amplifier (since this is generally a
> higher signal level with a low impedance source and less sensitive to
> hum pickup, the loading effect of cable capacitance, and doesn't get
> swung around by its connectors as much as an instrument cable. But an
> instrument cable will certainly work in that application.
>
> Is that more than you wanted to know?
!