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Palm OS 6: Confused over release

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Anonymous
May 18, 2004 3:25:54 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Hi All,

(Apologies if this is a repeated question, I just picked up this NG in my
client....)

I'm a bit confused about Palm OS 6. According to Palm's news releases, it
was sent to manufacturers back in January so why are no Palm's in the UK
shipped with Palm OS 6 yet? They all seem to have 5.2.1.

I'm looking at buying a T3 from dabs.com. Can anyone tell me when we might
expect to see version 6 on Palm's for sale in the UK?

Also: If I buy one now with 5.2.1, will 6 be a free upgrade or will they
charge? How much is that likely to be?

Thanks!

--
-Lawrence Stromski.

More about : palm confused release

Anonymous
May 18, 2004 4:22:31 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Lawrence Stromski wrote:
> I'm a bit confused about Palm OS 6. According to Palm's news releases, it
> was sent to manufacturers back in January so why are no Palm's in the UK
> shipped with Palm OS 6 yet? They all seem to have 5.2.1.

Because Palm's intent in sending to Palm OS licensees was so that they
could learn about it and begin the work of making it function on
the devices they sell, along with backwards compatibility with the
other enhancements they've made to OS 5, etc. The licensees' devices
don't run plain vanilla Palm OS -- they run customized versions. It
took a while for them to create their customized variations of OS 5,
and it will take a while for them to do the same with OS 6, especially
since OS 6 and OS 5 are really not very similar, internally.

In other words, just because Palm has a preliminary version of OS 6
that is working doesn't mean that the product development phase is
over. In fact, that phase just *started* for the licensees.

> I'm looking at buying a T3 from dabs.com. Can anyone tell me when we might
> expect to see version 6 on Palm's for sale in the UK?

I would guess that at this point, even people within Palm cannot tell
you exactly when it will come out.

> Also: If I buy one now with 5.2.1, will 6 be a free upgrade or will they
> charge? How much is that likely to be?

Let's first ask another question: if you buy one with 5.2.1, will an
upgrade to OS 6 even be available at all? Palm hasn't said for sure
that it will be. They did, however, mention at the PalmSource conference
that there are some devices that can never run OS 6 (such as all
devices that run OS 4 right now, and all OS 5 devices that don't
have MMU hardware) but probably some devices that can. So I would
guess that there is a 50-75% chance that the Tungsten T3 will get an
upgrade at all.

Now, on to your question: knowing Palm, I would assume they are going
to apply myopic economics to this problem and decide to charge for
the upgrade. If Palm wants OS 6 (and thus themselves) to succeed,
their best strategy in my opinion is to do everything they can to get
OS 6 widely adopted, which includes making it available for all possible
devices at no charge. It has many exciting new features (like enhanced
graphics and multimedia), but no rational software company will use
any of these features if it means their software, which they are
trying to sell, can only run on 0.1% of the devices out there. The
same thing applies if it can only run on 5% of the devices. When
you get to the point where, say, 25% to 50% of all devices are running
OS 6, then software developers will start to not consider it product
suicide to make it OS 6 only. In theory, you could ship two versions:
one that runs on OS 6 only (and has extra features) and one that runs
on OS 5 and earlier. But in practice, this is hard to begin with, and
it's made doubly hard by the fact that there is apparently no feasible
way right now to use the same source code for both versions of the app.
(Again, at the PalmSource conference, one of the Palm engineers said
he tried to do exactly this, and it was a great big mess and a failure.)

But I digress. The point is, if Palm wants OS 6 to add value to
the platform, it needs software for it, and with the current state
of affairs, this means it needs to switch over as many people as
possible with a free, easy upgrade that runs on as many devices
as possible. But, Palm has a history of viewing OS upgrades as
a potential revenue stream. They seem to think that they put money
into it, so they should get money out of it. I am afraid they many
apply this same approach with OS 6, which would be, if not disastrous,
at least really terrible. Doing so will delay the creation of
awesome new OS 6 stuff by something like two years, which overall
is a big net loss for the platform in general...

So to sum up,
(1) my guess is 75% chance it will exist, and
(2) 75% chance you will have to pay for it if it does exist, and
(3) I really hope I'm wrong about #2.

- Logan
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 5:29:43 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

i think palm is confused over its release.
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Anonymous
May 18, 2004 6:25:06 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Thanks for the detailed response. This kinda leads me to another question in
that case:

You can get the Palm OS simulator and/or emulator with v6 and the rom images
et al. Is it possible for developers (/ the highly skilled) to apply v6
manually to their 5.2.1 devices?
(I probably won't be trying this, I don't know enough about Palm OS
yet.....)

Thanks!

--
-Lawrence Stromski.


"Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:bHcqc.119819$Dn1.99989@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> Lawrence Stromski wrote:
> > I'm a bit confused about Palm OS 6. According to Palm's news releases,
it
> > was sent to manufacturers back in January so why are no Palm's in the UK
> > shipped with Palm OS 6 yet? They all seem to have 5.2.1.
>
> Because Palm's intent in sending to Palm OS licensees was so that they
> could learn about it and begin the work of making it function on
> the devices they sell, along with backwards compatibility with the
> other enhancements they've made to OS 5, etc. The licensees' devices
> don't run plain vanilla Palm OS -- they run customized versions. It
> took a while for them to create their customized variations of OS 5,
> and it will take a while for them to do the same with OS 6, especially
> since OS 6 and OS 5 are really not very similar, internally.
>
> In other words, just because Palm has a preliminary version of OS 6
> that is working doesn't mean that the product development phase is
> over. In fact, that phase just *started* for the licensees.
>
> > I'm looking at buying a T3 from dabs.com. Can anyone tell me when we
might
> > expect to see version 6 on Palm's for sale in the UK?
>
> I would guess that at this point, even people within Palm cannot tell
> you exactly when it will come out.
>
> > Also: If I buy one now with 5.2.1, will 6 be a free upgrade or will they
> > charge? How much is that likely to be?
>
> Let's first ask another question: if you buy one with 5.2.1, will an
> upgrade to OS 6 even be available at all? Palm hasn't said for sure
> that it will be. They did, however, mention at the PalmSource conference
> that there are some devices that can never run OS 6 (such as all
> devices that run OS 4 right now, and all OS 5 devices that don't
> have MMU hardware) but probably some devices that can. So I would
> guess that there is a 50-75% chance that the Tungsten T3 will get an
> upgrade at all.
>
> Now, on to your question: knowing Palm, I would assume they are going
> to apply myopic economics to this problem and decide to charge for
> the upgrade. If Palm wants OS 6 (and thus themselves) to succeed,
> their best strategy in my opinion is to do everything they can to get
> OS 6 widely adopted, which includes making it available for all possible
> devices at no charge. It has many exciting new features (like enhanced
> graphics and multimedia), but no rational software company will use
> any of these features if it means their software, which they are
> trying to sell, can only run on 0.1% of the devices out there. The
> same thing applies if it can only run on 5% of the devices. When
> you get to the point where, say, 25% to 50% of all devices are running
> OS 6, then software developers will start to not consider it product
> suicide to make it OS 6 only. In theory, you could ship two versions:
> one that runs on OS 6 only (and has extra features) and one that runs
> on OS 5 and earlier. But in practice, this is hard to begin with, and
> it's made doubly hard by the fact that there is apparently no feasible
> way right now to use the same source code for both versions of the app.
> (Again, at the PalmSource conference, one of the Palm engineers said
> he tried to do exactly this, and it was a great big mess and a failure.)
>
> But I digress. The point is, if Palm wants OS 6 to add value to
> the platform, it needs software for it, and with the current state
> of affairs, this means it needs to switch over as many people as
> possible with a free, easy upgrade that runs on as many devices
> as possible. But, Palm has a history of viewing OS upgrades as
> a potential revenue stream. They seem to think that they put money
> into it, so they should get money out of it. I am afraid they many
> apply this same approach with OS 6, which would be, if not disastrous,
> at least really terrible. Doing so will delay the creation of
> awesome new OS 6 stuff by something like two years, which overall
> is a big net loss for the platform in general...
>
> So to sum up,
> (1) my guess is 75% chance it will exist, and
> (2) 75% chance you will have to pay for it if it does exist, and
> (3) I really hope I'm wrong about #2.
>
> - Logan
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 6:30:28 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Sorrryyy! Bad form replying to my own posts, i know, just come up with
another question:

I just noticed that most devices are running 5.2.1 when actually 5.3 and 5.4
are also available. Why arn't devices running these newer versions? Same
situ. as 6?
Same questions about 5.3 and 5.4, is it a customer upgrade? Is it free?

Basiclly: What I really don't want to do is go out and buy a T3 tommorow
with 5.2.1, only to find out that they release a newer version the next day
and I'd have to pay £100 to upgrade mine. I really hate it when that happens
with any hardware :-)
(Such as when I got my 3.2ghz P4 only to find they released the Extreme
Edition a few weeks later)


Thanks again for your Palm advice.

--
-Lawrence Stromski.

"Lawrence Stromski" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:c8bs62$5om$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
> Thanks for the detailed response. This kinda leads me to another question
in
> that case:
>
> You can get the Palm OS simulator and/or emulator with v6 and the rom
images
> et al. Is it possible for developers (/ the highly skilled) to apply v6
> manually to their 5.2.1 devices?
> (I probably won't be trying this, I don't know enough about Palm OS
> yet.....)
>
> Thanks!
>
> --
> -Lawrence Stromski.
>
>
> "Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:bHcqc.119819$Dn1.99989@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> > Lawrence Stromski wrote:
> > > I'm a bit confused about Palm OS 6. According to Palm's news releases,
> it
> > > was sent to manufacturers back in January so why are no Palm's in the
UK
> > > shipped with Palm OS 6 yet? They all seem to have 5.2.1.
> >
> > Because Palm's intent in sending to Palm OS licensees was so that they
> > could learn about it and begin the work of making it function on
> > the devices they sell, along with backwards compatibility with the
> > other enhancements they've made to OS 5, etc. The licensees' devices
> > don't run plain vanilla Palm OS -- they run customized versions. It
> > took a while for them to create their customized variations of OS 5,
> > and it will take a while for them to do the same with OS 6, especially
> > since OS 6 and OS 5 are really not very similar, internally.
> >
> > In other words, just because Palm has a preliminary version of OS 6
> > that is working doesn't mean that the product development phase is
> > over. In fact, that phase just *started* for the licensees.
> >
> > > I'm looking at buying a T3 from dabs.com. Can anyone tell me when we
> might
> > > expect to see version 6 on Palm's for sale in the UK?
> >
> > I would guess that at this point, even people within Palm cannot tell
> > you exactly when it will come out.
> >
> > > Also: If I buy one now with 5.2.1, will 6 be a free upgrade or will
they
> > > charge? How much is that likely to be?
> >
> > Let's first ask another question: if you buy one with 5.2.1, will an
> > upgrade to OS 6 even be available at all? Palm hasn't said for sure
> > that it will be. They did, however, mention at the PalmSource
conference
> > that there are some devices that can never run OS 6 (such as all
> > devices that run OS 4 right now, and all OS 5 devices that don't
> > have MMU hardware) but probably some devices that can. So I would
> > guess that there is a 50-75% chance that the Tungsten T3 will get an
> > upgrade at all.
> >
> > Now, on to your question: knowing Palm, I would assume they are going
> > to apply myopic economics to this problem and decide to charge for
> > the upgrade. If Palm wants OS 6 (and thus themselves) to succeed,
> > their best strategy in my opinion is to do everything they can to get
> > OS 6 widely adopted, which includes making it available for all possible
> > devices at no charge. It has many exciting new features (like enhanced
> > graphics and multimedia), but no rational software company will use
> > any of these features if it means their software, which they are
> > trying to sell, can only run on 0.1% of the devices out there. The
> > same thing applies if it can only run on 5% of the devices. When
> > you get to the point where, say, 25% to 50% of all devices are running
> > OS 6, then software developers will start to not consider it product
> > suicide to make it OS 6 only. In theory, you could ship two versions:
> > one that runs on OS 6 only (and has extra features) and one that runs
> > on OS 5 and earlier. But in practice, this is hard to begin with, and
> > it's made doubly hard by the fact that there is apparently no feasible
> > way right now to use the same source code for both versions of the app.
> > (Again, at the PalmSource conference, one of the Palm engineers said
> > he tried to do exactly this, and it was a great big mess and a failure.)
> >
> > But I digress. The point is, if Palm wants OS 6 to add value to
> > the platform, it needs software for it, and with the current state
> > of affairs, this means it needs to switch over as many people as
> > possible with a free, easy upgrade that runs on as many devices
> > as possible. But, Palm has a history of viewing OS upgrades as
> > a potential revenue stream. They seem to think that they put money
> > into it, so they should get money out of it. I am afraid they many
> > apply this same approach with OS 6, which would be, if not disastrous,
> > at least really terrible. Doing so will delay the creation of
> > awesome new OS 6 stuff by something like two years, which overall
> > is a big net loss for the platform in general...
> >
> > So to sum up,
> > (1) my guess is 75% chance it will exist, and
> > (2) 75% chance you will have to pay for it if it does exist, and
> > (3) I really hope I'm wrong about #2.
> >
> > - Logan
>
>
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 6:52:13 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Lawrence Stromski wrote:
> You can get the Palm OS simulator and/or emulator with v6 and the rom images
> et al. Is it possible for developers (/ the highly skilled) to apply v6
> manually to their 5.2.1 devices?
> (I probably won't be trying this, I don't know enough about Palm OS
> yet.....)

From what I understand, the OS 6 simulator is not a true hardware
emulator. Instead, it simulates the device's behavior, but you must
build a special version of your app to run it on the simulator.
This is because the simulator runs x86 code (compiled against the
OS 6 API) but the actual device runs ARM code (also compiled against
the OS 6 API, of course). So, the simulator and the actual device
don't run the same variation of OS 6; one of them really is OS 6,
and the other is a "fake" OS 6 in essence. The "fake" one probably
doesn't even have a ROM image, though the real device would.

One of the reasons for this, supposedly, is that unlike the 68000
CPU (as used on OS 4 devices), the ARM CPU is too complex to
emulate in software. So the only solution is to rebuild all your
code for the simulator's native instruction set and let the simulator
run that. Then if that works, you build the version that works on
the real Palm device, and the assumption is that works on one works
on the other.

This is one of the reasons that the OS 6 simulator won't likely
be available on the Mac. The Mac wouldn't be able to run the x86
code.

So to summarize (again): nope, the simulator doesn't help you at
all because it is not code that could ever run on a real, working
Palm device.

- Logan
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 6:54:53 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Lawrence Stromski wrote:

> Sorrryyy! Bad form replying to my own posts, i know, just come up with
> another question:
>
> I just noticed that most devices are running 5.2.1 when actually 5.3 and 5.4
> are also available. Why arn't devices running these newer versions? Same
> situ. as 6?
> Same questions about 5.3 and 5.4, is it a customer upgrade? Is it free?

It's not a big deal. The main differences between the 5.x versions,
besides a few minor bug fixes, is that the newer releases of 5.x support
the capabilities of new devices. For example, the Tunsten T has a
320x320 screen, and it runs 5.0. The Tungsten T3 runs a newer release,
and the main benefit of the new release (in that case) is that it supports
the 320x480 screen.

There are other benefits to newer OS releases, but for the most part,
it's all about supporting hardware and not about adding features, fixing
bugs, or changing the API that applications use (i.e. supporting newer
applications). Although, those last 3 things do happen a little.

- Logan
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 7:35:05 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

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Hash: SHA1

At 2004-05-18T02:30:28Z, "Lawrence Stromski" <a@b.com> writes:

> Same questions about 5.3 and 5.4, is it a customer upgrade? Is it free?

Where do people get the idea that a higher version number is necessarily an
upgrade? OS 4.1.2, for example, was basically the same as 4.1 except with
Grafitti 2 instead of Grafitti. I think I would've gone postal if I'd had
4.1 and paid for an "upgrade" to 4.1.2.
- --
Kirk Strauser
The Strauser Group
Open. Solutions. Simple.
http://www.strausergroup.com/
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May 18, 2004 7:53:32 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Tue, 18 May 2004 03:35:05 GMT, Kirk Strauser wrote:

> Where do people get the idea that a higher version number is necessarily an
> upgrade? OS 4.1.2, for example, was basically the same as 4.1 except with
> Grafitti 2 instead of Grafitti. I think I would've gone postal if I'd had
> 4.1 and paid for an "upgrade" to 4.1.2.

My early Palm upgrades (v3.xx to v3.yy) were all free. I only
paid a relatively small amount to upgrade from v3 to v4. Have there
been any v4.xx to v4.yy upgrade fees that you know of?
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 9:17:27 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Logan Shaw wrote:
> Now, on to your question: knowing Palm, I would assume they are going
> to apply myopic economics to this problem and decide to charge for
> the upgrade. If Palm wants OS 6 (and thus themselves) to succeed,
> their best strategy in my opinion is to do everything they can to get
> OS 6 widely adopted, which includes making it available for all possible
> devices at no charge.

Remember, Logan, there is no "Palm" anymore. There's PalmSource, the
software company that has released Palm OS 6 to licensees, and PalmOne,
the hardware company that makes PDAs and SmartPhones. The financial
interests of PalmOne and PalmSource aren't always aligned, and the
product development cycles differ.
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 9:20:31 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Lawrence Stromski wrote:

> Sorrryyy! Bad form replying to my own posts, i know, just come up with
> another question:
>
> I just noticed that most devices are running 5.2.1 when actually 5.3 and 5.4
> are also available. Why arn't devices running these newer versions? Same
> situ. as 6?
> Same questions about 5.3 and 5.4, is it a customer upgrade? Is it free?

It's up to the licensees to provide OS updates for devices. In general,
there's not much reason for a licensee shipping a device with Palm OS
5.2 to offer a 5.3 or 5.4 update -- those OS releases mainly exist to
support new hardware platforms and screen sizes; they don't add
significant features or have major bug fixes.

To answer your Palm OS Simulator question: the Palm OS Simulator is
actually a version of Palm OS built to run as a Win32 process using x86
instructions. It would be impossible to put this on a Palm OS device,
since it's not using ARM instructions, and the hardware interface layer
talks to Windows APIs.
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 9:23:23 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

BillB wrote:
> My early Palm upgrades (v3.xx to v3.yy) were all free. I only
> paid a relatively small amount to upgrade from v3 to v4. Have there
> been any v4.xx to v4.yy upgrade fees that you know of?

Palm OS was treated a lot differently back them. There was only one
version of the OS, and there were only a couple of hardware platforms.
It also was owned by Palm. Now, Palm OS is developed seperately from
the hardware, and the licensees pay fees to PalmSource when they
distribute the OS.

BTW, the Palm OS 3.5 update was only free for Palm Vx users -- other
Palm devices had a paid update to 3.5. The update to 4.1 was also a
paid update, and it wasn't made available for Palm OS 4.0 users, IIRC.
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 9:42:38 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

In article <c8bsg4$627$1@sparta.btinternet.com>, "Lawrence Stromski"
<a@b.com> wrote:

> Sorrryyy! Bad form replying to my own posts, i know, just come up with
> another question:
>
> I just noticed that most devices are running 5.2.1 when actually 5.3 and 5.4
> are also available. Why arn't devices running these newer versions? Same
> situ. as 6?
> Same questions about 5.3 and 5.4, is it a customer upgrade? Is it free?

None of these is a consumer upgrade. As was posted before, PalmSource
creates the OS for licensees and licensees customize and adapt it to their
hardware. The licensees might make an upgrade available. But if you read
the release notes for the various versions you cited, you'll find that
they're not really upgrades for one another but have various differences,
e.g., support for Simplified Chinese.

To answer your question about people installing Palm OS 6 on their device:
this is specifically not allowed by the end user license agreement. AFAIK,
PalmSource has not made any ROM images of Palm OS 6 available. What you
get in the Simulator is a Windows port of the operating system.
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 9:45:15 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

In article <xTeqc.119874$Dn1.3708@fe2.texas.rr.com>, Logan Shaw
<lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote:

> This is one of the reasons that the OS 6 simulator won't likely
> be available on the Mac. The Mac wouldn't be able to run the x86
> code.

Not quite. Think of the Palm OS Simulator as a Windows port of the Palm
OS. If PalmSource wanted to, and had the demand to justify it, it could
"port" Palm OS Cobalt to the Mac.
May 18, 2004 10:46:33 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Tue, 18 May 2004 05:23:23 GMT, Ben Combee wrote:

> BTW, the Palm OS 3.5 update was only free for Palm Vx users -- other
> Palm devices had a paid update to 3.5. The update to 4.1 was also a
> paid update, and it wasn't made available for Palm OS 4.0 users, IIRC.

You're probably right. I think the last free update for one IIIx
was to 3.3x. I already had 3.5x in a TRGPro and saw nothing
compelling in that version to make me want to upgrade the IIIx
beyond 3.3. Until version 4, that is.
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 11:21:18 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Ben Combee wrote on 17 May 2004:

> BTW, the Palm OS 3.5 update was only free for Palm Vx users -- other
> Palm devices had a paid update to 3.5. The update to 4.1 was also a
> paid update, and it wasn't made available for Palm OS 4.0 users, IIRC.

The 4.0 to 4.1 update was (and is still) available for m500s and m505s.
I don't know about any other models.

http://www.palmone.com/us/support/downloads/palmos41.ht...

--
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 11:34:53 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Guy Bannis wrote:

> In article <xTeqc.119874$Dn1.3708@fe2.texas.rr.com>, Logan Shaw
> <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>>This is one of the reasons that the OS 6 simulator won't likely
>>be available on the Mac. The Mac wouldn't be able to run the x86
>>code.

> Not quite. Think of the Palm OS Simulator as a Windows port of the Palm
> OS. If PalmSource wanted to, and had the demand to justify it, it could
> "port" Palm OS Cobalt to the Mac.

Sure, they could do that. And they would also have to have a compiler
set up to generate PowerPC code that runs on that simulator, which is
also not impossible, but which is really unlikely in my opinion.

- Logan
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 11:56:14 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Ben Combee wrote:
> Logan Shaw wrote:

>> Now, on to your question: knowing Palm, I would assume they are going
>> to apply myopic economics to this problem and decide to charge for
>> the upgrade. If Palm wants OS 6 (and thus themselves) to succeed,
>> their best strategy in my opinion is to do everything they can to get
>> OS 6 widely adopted, which includes making it available for all possible
>> devices at no charge.

> Remember, Logan, there is no "Palm" anymore. There's PalmSource, the
> software company that has released Palm OS 6 to licensees, and PalmOne,
> the hardware company that makes PDAs and SmartPhones. The financial
> interests of PalmOne and PalmSource aren't always aligned, and the
> product development cycles differ.

True, the structure has changed, but it doesn't change what needs to
happen to make the Palm platform succeed. If the spin-off has made it
harder for the two to do the things that need to be done to guide
things along for long term success, then that is an unfortunate
aspect of the spin-off. I do realize it makes things more complicated,
and I'm sure there are good reasons for the spin-off. But, though their
interests may differ at times, it would seem that the general success
of the platform is in the interest of both.

- Logan
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 3:31:01 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Thank you all for your input. The vale of darkness over Palm OS has now been
lifted and I can see clearly. :-)

It's quite worrying how you can know so much about one thing (Windows
client/server and desktop laptops in my case) and then go to something else
like Palms or VMS VAX and be a total newbie for a while.

--
-Lawrence Stromski.
"Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ykjqc.120269$Dn1.23818@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> Ben Combee wrote:
> > Logan Shaw wrote:
>
> >> Now, on to your question: knowing Palm, I would assume they are going
> >> to apply myopic economics to this problem and decide to charge for
> >> the upgrade. If Palm wants OS 6 (and thus themselves) to succeed,
> >> their best strategy in my opinion is to do everything they can to get
> >> OS 6 widely adopted, which includes making it available for all
possible
> >> devices at no charge.
>
> > Remember, Logan, there is no "Palm" anymore. There's PalmSource, the
> > software company that has released Palm OS 6 to licensees, and PalmOne,
> > the hardware company that makes PDAs and SmartPhones. The financial
> > interests of PalmOne and PalmSource aren't always aligned, and the
> > product development cycles differ.
>
> True, the structure has changed, but it doesn't change what needs to
> happen to make the Palm platform succeed. If the spin-off has made it
> harder for the two to do the things that need to be done to guide
> things along for long term success, then that is an unfortunate
> aspect of the spin-off. I do realize it makes things more complicated,
> and I'm sure there are good reasons for the spin-off. But, though their
> interests may differ at times, it would seem that the general success
> of the platform is in the interest of both.
>
> - Logan
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 4:49:55 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Logan Shaw wrote:
> Sure, they could do that. And they would also have to have a compiler
> set up to generate PowerPC code that runs on that simulator, which is
> also not impossible, but which is really unlikely in my opinion.

They have stated that they "are working on an ARM Palm OS Emulator that
will run on both Windows and Mac OS". [1]

That's from an old paper, though. It seems unlikely that this ARM
emulator will come out any time soon(if ever). I asked about this a few
months back in the palm-dev group and got no reply.


Regards
-Laurens

[1] http://www.palmos.com/dev/tools/simulator/
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 5:49:45 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

<< > In article <xTeqc.119874$Dn1.3708@fe2.texas.rr.com>, Logan Shaw
> <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>>This is one of the reasons that the OS 6 simulator won't likely
>>be available on the Mac. The Mac wouldn't be able to run the x86
>>code.

> Not quite. Think of the Palm OS Simulator as a Windows port of the Palm
> OS. If PalmSource wanted to, and had the demand to justify it, it could
> "port" Palm OS Cobalt to the Mac.

Sure, they could do that. And they would also have to have a compiler
set up to generate PowerPC code that runs on that simulator, which is
also not impossible, but which is really unlikely in my opinion.

- Logan

>

Besides, they've already announced that Palm OS 6 will NOT be Mac OS
compatabile.

Dennis B. Swaney
remove .zz to reply
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 6:18:27 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Tue, 18 May 2004 05:23:23 GMT, Ben Combee had this to say...


> BillB wrote:
> > My early Palm upgrades (v3.xx to v3.yy) were all free. I only
> > paid a relatively small amount to upgrade from v3 to v4. Have there
> > been any v4.xx to v4.yy upgrade fees that you know of?
>
> Palm OS was treated a lot differently back them. There was only one
> version of the OS, and there were only a couple of hardware platforms.
> It also was owned by Palm. Now, Palm OS is developed seperately from
> the hardware, and the licensees pay fees to PalmSource when they
> distribute the OS.
>
> BTW, the Palm OS 3.5 update was only free for Palm Vx users -- other
> Palm devices had a paid update to 3.5. The update to 4.1 was also a
> paid update, and it wasn't made available for Palm OS 4.0 users, IIRC.
>

Palm had a free upgrade to 4.1 for m50X, because of the many bugs in 4.0
<http://www.palmone.com/us/support/downloads/palmos41.ht...;

--
Hope this helps.
Jim Anderson
( 8(|) To email me just pull my_finger
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 10:09:16 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

In article <20040518094945.23183.00001146@mb-m24.aol.com>,
romad@aol.com.zz (ROMAD) wrote:

> Besides, they've already announced that Palm OS 6 will NOT be Mac OS
> compatabile.
>
> Dennis B. Swaney
> remove .zz to reply

Not quite. They said they won't provide the Mac OS support for Palm OS 6.
The Palm OS runs on handhelds, not desktops. Certain components, such as
the Palm Desktop, is what PalmSource was referring to.

The Missing Sync has said they will take up the slack. And Licensees are
free to provide the Mac OS support too.
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 10:10:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

In article <ykjqc.120269$Dn1.23818@fe2.texas.rr.com>, Logan Shaw
<lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote:

> True, the structure has changed, but it doesn't change what needs to
> happen to make the Palm platform succeed.

What makes you think they're not? PalmSource has already announced a new
toolchain for development on several of their platforms, old and new.
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 11:42:45 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Guy Bannis wrote:

> In article <ykjqc.120269$Dn1.23818@fe2.texas.rr.com>, Logan Shaw
> <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>>True, the structure has changed, but it doesn't change what needs to
>>happen to make the Palm platform succeed.
>
>
> What makes you think they're not? PalmSource has already announced a new
> toolchain for development on several of their platforms, old and new.

I was just talking about a free OS 5 -> OS 6 upgrade available for as
many devices as is practical. The main issue being that few people
are going to "go native" on OS 6 if there is virtually nobody out there
who wants to buy their software once it has gone native.

By the way, I'm not assuming Palm will or won't do any particular thing;
I'm just not all that optimistic that they'll do the thing that *I*
think is right. (And, yes, of course I think my opinion is the right
answer -- otherwise I'd have some different opinion. :-)

- Logan
Anonymous
May 19, 2004 1:32:30 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

ROMAD wrote:
> Besides, they've already announced that Palm OS 6 will NOT be Mac OS
> compatabile.
>
> Dennis B. Swaney
> remove .zz to reply

No. PalmSource (of which I'm an employee) announced that they were not
producing a Mac OS version of HotSync Manager. This doesn't mean that
Mac OS systems won't be able to sync with the device. Mark/Space has
already announced that they will support Palm OS Cobalt with their
Missing Sync product, and there's a possibility that Apple will support
it with iSync. Just because the sync solution won't come directly from
PalmSource, it doesn't mean that Palm OS Cobalt won't be Mac OS compatible.
Anonymous
May 19, 2004 3:47:35 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Mon, 17 May 2004 23:25:54 +0000 (UTC), "Lawrence Stromski" <a@b.com>
wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>(Apologies if this is a repeated question, I just picked up this NG in my
>client....)
>
>I'm a bit confused about Palm OS 6. According to Palm's news releases, it
>was sent to manufacturers back in January so why are no Palm's in the UK
>shipped with Palm OS 6 yet? They all seem to have 5.2.1.

It takes time to engineer a PDA, and Cobalt (formerly known as OS6) is a
hugly different OS with much richer features.

>I'm looking at buying a T3 from dabs.com. Can anyone tell me when we might
>expect to see version 6 on Palm's for sale in the UK?

No telling. Six month is the timeframe I've heard from PalmOne
enigineering executives, which seems reasonable if a little scanty.

>Also: If I buy one now with 5.2.1, will 6 be a free upgrade or will they
>charge? How much is that likely to be?

Wish I could say.

Some occasional details at www.pdaphonehome.com
--
John Bartley K7AAY http://celdata.cjb.net
This post quad-ROT-13 encrypted; reading it violates the DMCA.
Nobody but a fool goes into a federal counterrorism operation without duct tape - Richard Preston, THE COBRA EVENT.
Anonymous
May 19, 2004 7:58:39 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

While contemplating the futility of mankind's place in an uncaring
universe, "Lawrence Stromski" <a@b.com> suppressed his anomie to
declaim:

>I'm a bit confused about Palm OS 6. According to Palm's news releases, it
>was sent to manufacturers back in January so why are no Palm's in the UK
>shipped with Palm OS 6 yet? They all seem to have 5.2.1.

Just curious, what are the changes in OS 6? Really gee-whiz stuff for
high-end new hardware only; or things that could be useful to ordinary
folks like me (Joe Lumpen-Proletariat) with a current Palm; or not
really much at all?


--
Bet you didn't know today was such a long time coming
Anonymous
May 19, 2004 7:58:40 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Charles Hawtrey <chawtrey@hotpop.com> wrote:
>
> Just curious, what are the changes in OS 6? Really gee-whiz stuff for
> high-end new hardware only; or things that could be useful to ordinary
> folks like me (Joe Lumpen-Proletariat) with a current Palm; or not
> really much at all?

Really much at all. Multitasking and true RISC programs (PalmOS5 is running
Motorola m68k code under an emulator for ARM, with the ability to add small
"armlets" for native code subroutines where speed is essential).

The bad stuff is that it will only run on today's fastest PDA CPUs, and
needs gobs of RAM. Few of today's PDA's will be able to run PalmOS 6.
This is rather strange, considering that there's plenty of true
multi-tasking operating systems that work well with much slower CPUs and a
tiny fraction of the RAM. Heck, you could run IRIX 5 on CPU's a quarter of
that speed with a quarter of the RAM, and that's considered a bloated OS.
Who knows what happened -- OO overload and the best coders you could get for
$7 per hour is my guess.

Regards,
--
*Art
Anonymous
May 19, 2004 8:27:41 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

<< PalmSource (of which I'm an employee) announced that they were not
producing a Mac OS version of HotSync Manager. This doesn't mean that
Mac OS systems won't be able to sync with the device. Mark/Space has
already announced that they will support Palm OS Cobalt with their
Missing Sync product, and there's a possibility that Apple will support
it with iSync. Just because the sync solution won't come directly from
PalmSource, it doesn't mean that Palm OS Cobalt won't be Mac OS compatible. >>

However, Ben, if there won't be a HotSync Manager, then there won't be a Palm
Desktop for Mac OS, right? After all, it doesn't make any sense to make a
product that you aren't making hotsync capable. I DON'T and will NOT use M$
Entourage so what is left? Does Apple's iSync have the capability to sync
PocketQuicken, MobileDB, SplashData's products, Backup capability, etc.? I've
heard that Missing Sync still has problems even after all the versions that
have been released. I want to use the installed apps that come on the Palm and
sync them to my MAC OS computer. So, it looks like I should be stocking up on
T3s; when one breaks, I just open a new box.
Dennis B. Swaney
remove .zz to reply
Anonymous
May 19, 2004 10:20:34 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

In article <40aada96.18486371@news.individual.net>, chawtrey@hotpop.com
(Charles Hawtrey) wrote:

> Just curious, what are the changes in OS 6? Really gee-whiz stuff for
> high-end new hardware only; or things that could be useful to ordinary
> folks like me (Joe Lumpen-Proletariat) with a current Palm; or not
> really much at all?

You can check this out at www.palmsource.com or Brighthand or google it.

Some user-level changes: unlimited categories and memo sizes, resizable
screens, etc.

Don't know how useful it is for a "current Palm" device since it will
probably ship in new devices. Don't know about chip and RAM requirements.
I hear it's bigger than past Palm OS' but how much bigger hasn't been
released as far as I know.
Anonymous
May 19, 2004 10:21:14 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

In article <cjarn1-o57.ln1@kether.broomstick.com>, "Arthur Hagen"
<art@broomstick.com> wrote:

> The bad stuff is that it will only run on today's fastest PDA CPUs, and
> needs gobs of RAM.

How do you know this?
Anonymous
May 20, 2004 4:40:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Get the Palm Simulator for PalmOS 6, you can see the differences for
yourself: http://www.palmos.com/dev/dl/dl_tools/dl_simulator/

There are a few UI changes, new splash screen, it's multi-threaded and
capable of multi-tasking, i believe there are more development tools for
programmers to write ARM-native applications, should bring more powerful and
better aps to the Palm, changes to the input area if your using a virtual
input area, new status bar (much better), support for more hardware, more
memory etc, lotsa things. :-)

--
-Lawrence Stromski.
"Guy Bannis" <guy@ether.net> wrote in message
news:guy-1905041120580001@192.168.1.103...
> In article <40aada96.18486371@news.individual.net>, chawtrey@hotpop.com
> (Charles Hawtrey) wrote:
>
> > Just curious, what are the changes in OS 6? Really gee-whiz stuff for
> > high-end new hardware only; or things that could be useful to ordinary
> > folks like me (Joe Lumpen-Proletariat) with a current Palm; or not
> > really much at all?
>
> You can check this out at www.palmsource.com or Brighthand or google it.
>
> Some user-level changes: unlimited categories and memo sizes, resizable
> screens, etc.
>
> Don't know how useful it is for a "current Palm" device since it will
> probably ship in new devices. Don't know about chip and RAM requirements.
> I hear it's bigger than past Palm OS' but how much bigger hasn't been
> released as far as I know.
!