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Shocked from a live vocal mic - Part 2 Update

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September 24, 2004 6:14:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Thanks to everyone for your helpful comments. Quick recap..bass player gets
shocked on the lips by vocal mic while wearing his bass.

I pulled the three prong outlet from the wall that the bass player plugs
into...and sure enough, there are only two wires connected to the plug.
There is no grounding wire. I do see a ground terminal on the outlet to add
a ground wire. House was built in '56.

What are my options to add a ground? Can I connect a wire to the ground
terminal, run it down through the wall into the crawl space under the house
and stake it into the ground ( the earth)?

Thanks again.


Doug
Anonymous
September 24, 2004 6:18:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Snowdog <drisp@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I pulled the three prong outlet from the wall that the bass player plugs
>into...and sure enough, there are only two wires connected to the plug.
>There is no grounding wire. I do see a ground terminal on the outlet to add
>a ground wire. House was built in '56.
>
>What are my options to add a ground? Can I connect a wire to the ground
>terminal, run it down through the wall into the crawl space under the house
>and stake it into the ground ( the earth)?

What is the cable between the outlet to the panel? Is it steel-shielded
BX cable? Is it in a metal conduit? Is it flexible cable with a ground
wire that is basically not connected on either end? Is it flexible cable
with no ground wire?

If it's the last of those, you're basically going to have to replace the
cable from the outlet to the panel. Adding an additional grounding system
is a big no-no. Everything must be grounded to the panel.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
September 24, 2004 6:24:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cj1odc$l83$1@panix2.panix.com...
> Snowdog <drisp@hotmail.com> wrote:

> What is the cable between the outlet to the panel? Is it steel-shielded
> BX cable? Is it in a metal conduit? Is it flexible cable with a ground
> wire that is basically not connected on either end? Is it flexible cable
> with no ground wire?
>
> If it's the last of those, you're basically going to have to replace the
> cable from the outlet to the panel. Adding an additional grounding system
> is a big no-no. Everything must be grounded to the panel.
> --scott

Thanks Scott,

It appears to be a rigid copper wire wrapped in a mesh shielding..kind of
like a potato sack mesh...i don't think it's metal. There are only two
wires..no ground wire. I do understand your point about grounding from the
panel. I guess i will have to rerun a new wire.

Doug
Related resources
Anonymous
September 24, 2004 7:19:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <TtZ4d.96734$Np2.24770@bignews4.bellsouth.net>,
drisp@hotmail.com says...
> I pulled the three prong outlet from the wall that the bass player plugs
> into...and sure enough, there are only two wires connected to the plug.

That's not only unsafe but I believe illegal.. you should double-check
the grounds on all your three-prong outlets, and if there are any you
aren't fixing, replace them with two-prong outlets.

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?
Anonymous
September 24, 2004 10:04:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <TtZ4d.96734$Np2.24770@bignews4.bellsouth.net> drisp@hotmail.com writes:

> I pulled the three prong outlet from the wall that the bass player plugs
> into...and sure enough, there are only two wires connected to the plug.
> There is no grounding wire. I do see a ground terminal on the outlet to add
> a ground wire. House was built in '56.

Seems like someone replaced the original 2-prong outlet with a 3-prong
one and didn't connect the ground. Bad, bad, bad.

> What are my options to add a ground? Can I connect a wire to the ground
> terminal, run it down through the wall into the crawl space under the house
> and stake it into the ground ( the earth)?

No, you definitely don't want to do that. It's against electrical code
for a good reason. In 1956, it's not likely that the house is wired
with BX (metal sheathed cable) so your best option would be to have an
electrician pull a new wire from the main (probably fuse) box and
connect it to a 3-prong outlet.

Another option is to install a ground fault interrupting outlet in the
box. It's legal to use one of those on a two-wire circuit. That will
trip and disconnect power to the amplifier before the bass player
dies, which is what it's supposed to do.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
September 24, 2004 10:47:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <TtZ4d.96734$Np2.24770@bignews4.bellsouth.net>,
"Snowdog" <drisp@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks to everyone for your helpful comments. Quick recap..bass player gets
> shocked on the lips by vocal mic while wearing his bass.
>
> I pulled the three prong outlet from the wall that the bass player plugs
> into...and sure enough, there are only two wires connected to the plug.
> There is no grounding wire. I do see a ground terminal on the outlet to add
> a ground wire. House was built in '56.
>
> What are my options to add a ground? Can I connect a wire to the ground
> terminal, run it down through the wall into the crawl space under the house
> and stake it into the ground ( the earth)?
>
> Thanks again.
>
>
> Doug
>
>

find a grounded outlet and run a extention cord to it
often people who do thier own electrical work do not understand how
incidious electricty is and do not do a safe job, often doing what you
discovered

George
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 12:20:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Snowdog wrote:

> Thanks to everyone for your helpful comments. Quick recap..bass player gets
> shocked on the lips by vocal mic while wearing his bass.
>
> I pulled the three prong outlet from the wall that the bass player plugs
> into...and sure enough, there are only two wires connected to the plug.
> There is no grounding wire. I do see a ground terminal on the outlet to add
> a ground wire. House was built in '56.

Oy! Sounds like somebody (previous owner?) got tired of not being
able to plug in three-prong devices and "fixed" the problem by
replacing just the outlet. As you've already learned, this doesn't
seem like the greatest idea for various reasons!

First thing I'd do is go straight to Home Depot (or local equivalent)
and buy one of those outlet testers they have for $5 or $6. Then
test every outlet in the house.

Then, if you can afford it, have the house rewired as necessary so
that every three-prong outlet is actually properly grounded. If you
can't afford that, I would be tempted to replace every outlet that
has two wires with a nice old-fashioned TWO-prong outlet, because
having a three-prong outlet when there is not actually a ground
is deceptive, and even if you're aware of the situation, it's easy
to get lazy and plug in something that needs a ground because just
a lot easier. If you can't physically plug it in, then at least
the temptation is gone.

I'm not exactly sure you can buy two prong outlets anymore though...

- Logan
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 12:20:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <Vj%4d.167$W21.40@fe2.texas.rr.com>,
Logan Shaw <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote:

[snip]

>
> I'm not exactly sure you can buy two prong outlets anymore though...
>
> - Logan

You can.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x---------- http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jay/ ------------x
September 25, 2004 12:28:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

From what I understand the two prong outlets were grounded through the
armored jacket or conduit
so if a ground path is in place through one of thes methods then simply
bond the green screw of the three hole edison connector to the metal job
box
but you will have to test the circut ground path to be sure it has
remained intact all the way back to the mains panel
a continuty tester would be the right too for this
other wise you might as well rewire cause you won't ever sell a house
without bringing it up to current code, besides the fact the life you
save may be your own

George
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 12:45:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I hardly think it is illegal.

Probably 50 % of homes built before WW2 probably have an ungrounded outlet
in every room....




"Jay Levitt" <jay+news@jay.fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bbe3d2f2d981d8b98981d@news-east.giganews.com...
> In article <TtZ4d.96734$Np2.24770@bignews4.bellsouth.net>,
> drisp@hotmail.com says...
> > I pulled the three prong outlet from the wall that the bass player plugs
> > into...and sure enough, there are only two wires connected to the plug.
>
> That's not only unsafe but I believe illegal.. you should double-check
> the grounds on all your three-prong outlets, and if there are any you
> aren't fixing, replace them with two-prong outlets.
>
> --
> Jay Levitt |
> Wellesley, MA | Hi!
> Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
> http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 12:45:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Tony Briggs" <tbriggs@oineye.com> wrote in message
news:lH%4d.359927$8_6.120251@attbi_s04...
>I hardly think it is illegal.
>
> Probably 50 % of homes built before WW2 probably have an ungrounded outlet
> in every room....

The OP was not describing ungrounded two-prong wiring, which may be legal
for preexisting systems in some municipalities.

He was describing a three-wire outlet, with only two of the wires connected,
and the ground unconnected. I would be awfully surprised if that were
permitted by any electrical code anywhere in the US, or indeed anywhere else
there are electrical codes.
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 12:45:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Yes, but they used two-prong outlets. I believe using a three-prong
outlet and NOT actually grounding it violates the electrical code.

In article <lH%4d.359927$8_6.120251@attbi_s04>, tbriggs@oineye.com
says...
> I hardly think it is illegal.
>
> Probably 50 % of homes built before WW2 probably have an ungrounded outlet
> in every room....
>
>
>
>
> "Jay Levitt" <jay+news@jay.fm> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1bbe3d2f2d981d8b98981d@news-east.giganews.com...
> > In article <TtZ4d.96734$Np2.24770@bignews4.bellsouth.net>,
> > drisp@hotmail.com says...
> > > I pulled the three prong outlet from the wall that the bass player plugs
> > > into...and sure enough, there are only two wires connected to the plug.
> >
> > That's not only unsafe but I believe illegal.. you should double-check
> > the grounds on all your three-prong outlets, and if there are any you
> > aren't fixing, replace them with two-prong outlets.
>

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?
September 25, 2004 1:11:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <lH%4d.359927$8_6.120251@attbi_s04>,
"Tony Briggs" <tbriggs@oineye.com> wrote:

> I hardly think it is illegal.
>
> Probably 50 % of homes built before WW2 probably have an ungrounded outlet
> in every room....
>

I don't think you can sell a house in my local with outdated wiring
George
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 1:17:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"George" <g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:g.p.gleason-07722C.17112724092004@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> In article <lH%4d.359927$8_6.120251@attbi_s04>,
> "Tony Briggs" <tbriggs@oineye.com> wrote:
>
> > I hardly think it is illegal.
> >
> > Probably 50 % of homes built before WW2 probably have an ungrounded
outlet
> > in every room....
> >
>
> I don't think you can sell a house in my local with outdated wiring
> George

I bought my house about 6 years ago (in Southern Calif.), nearly all of my
outlets were two-prong, with no ground. Only in the kitchen and bathrooms
did I have grounds, and they were GFCIs with the ground wires looped around
to "fool" them from shutting off.

Stu
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 1:19:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Snowdog <drisp@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>It appears to be a rigid copper wire wrapped in a mesh shielding..kind of
>like a potato sack mesh...i don't think it's metal. There are only two
>wires..no ground wire. I do understand your point about grounding from the
>panel. I guess i will have to rerun a new wire.

I forget the NEMA designation for that, but it's basically the predicessor
to Romex. Putting a three-prong outlet on the end of that stuff is a big,
big code violation.

You may want to make sure the rest of the house isn't the same way. if it
is, you can legally keep three-prong outlets by using a GFI on each circuit.
(The GFIs will trip if there is substantial leakage, like there is with that
bass amp. That doesn't help you with the bass amp, though.) But you do
not want to have three-prong ungrounded outlets, if only because it probably
invalidates your insurance.

(I am assuming it _is_ a house... that stuff was never code for commercial
construction....)
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
September 25, 2004 1:20:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> >
> > I don't think you can sell a house in my local with outdated wiring
> > George
>
> I bought my house about 6 years ago (in Southern Calif.), nearly all of my
> outlets were two-prong, with no ground. Only in the kitchen and bathrooms
> did I have grounds, and they were GFCIs with the ground wires looped around
> to "fool" them from shutting off.
>
> Stu
>

I also am sure code is set locally for what is acceptable and not
I KNOW you can't get a CO for a commercial building without a three
wire grounded system in place
It may not have to be to every outlet though
I am not well enough informed to know the in and out of every situation
g
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 8:56:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Snowdog wrote:

> I pulled the three prong outlet from the wall that the bass player plugs
> into...and sure enough, there are only two wires connected to the plug.
> There is no grounding wire. I do see a ground terminal on the outlet to add
> a ground wire. House was built in '56.

Is that legal ?

Certainly wouldn't be in the UK.

Are ungrounded outlets common in the US ?


Graham
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 9:18:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

George wrote:

> From what I understand the two prong outlets were grounded through the
> armored jacket or conduit
> so if a ground path is in place through one of thes methods then simply
> bond the green screw of the three hole edison connector to the metal job
> box

I think the OP said the wire was two conductor enclosed in a mesh
that did not appear to be metal. So, apparently there really is
no separate ground.

- Logan
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 9:24:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear wrote:
> Snowdog wrote:
>>There is no grounding wire. I do see a ground terminal on the outlet to add
>>a ground wire. House was built in '56.

> Is that legal ?
>
> Certainly wouldn't be in the UK.
>
> Are ungrounded outlets common in the US ?

On older houses (say, 1960s or before, or maybe it's 1950s or before),
yes they are common, but not on newer construction.

Keep in mind that, in the US, virtually everything is "new construction"
by UK standards. We do have the occasional house that is over 100 years
old, but it's really quite rare, and if I had to guess, I'd say 50% or
even 75% of EVERYTHING in the US was built in the 1970s or later.

- Logan
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 1:12:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:17:04 -0400, Stu Venable wrote
(in article <k905d.2184$zG1.287@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>):

> "George" <g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:g.p.gleason-07722C.17112724092004@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
>> In article <lH%4d.359927$8_6.120251@attbi_s04>,
>> "Tony Briggs" <tbriggs@oineye.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I hardly think it is illegal.
>>>
>>> Probably 50 % of homes built before WW2 probably have an ungrounded
> outlet
>>> in every room....
>>>
>>
>> I don't think you can sell a house in my local with outdated wiring
>> George
>
> I bought my house about 6 years ago (in Southern Calif.), nearly all of my
> outlets were two-prong, with no ground. Only in the kitchen and bathrooms
> did I have grounds, and they were GFCIs with the ground wires looped around
> to "fool" them from shutting off.
>
> Stu

I have a mixture of 2 and 3 here. We bought this 1954 rancher 7 years ago.

Also be aware that the wiring may have been incorrectly installed. Just cause
it's in the walls, don't mean it's right.

As mentioned earlier, be careful, YOU COULD DIE FROM THIS!

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 1:21:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 23:56:01 -0400, Pooh Bear wrote
(in article <4154EC51.A9DF9A03@hotmail.com>):

>
>
> Snowdog wrote:
>
>> I pulled the three prong outlet from the wall that the bass player plugs
>> into...and sure enough, there are only two wires connected to the plug.
>> There is no grounding wire. I do see a ground terminal on the outlet to add
>> a ground wire. House was built in '56.
>
> Is that legal ?
>
> Certainly wouldn't be in the UK.
>
> Are ungrounded outlets common in the US ?
>
>
> Graham
>

Graham,

As I mentioned earlier, my 1956 house is a mix of 2 and 3. If something
buzzed in a two, we just replugged it 180 degrees to solve the problem.

There are also polarized 2-prong plugs (one blade is larger than the other)
that can only be plugged in ONE WAY. If the wiring scheme is proper, the
ground and neutral are the same all the way back to the panel.
(Unfortunately, sometimes they get flipped)

Maybe someone else can pipe in here. I'm at the edge of my correct info
border on this specific point.

Regards,

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 6:52:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Logan Shaw wrote:
> George wrote:
>
>
>>From what I understand the two prong outlets were grounded through the
>>armored jacket or conduit
>>so if a ground path is in place through one of thes methods then simply
>>bond the green screw of the three hole edison connector to the metal job
>>box
>
>
> I think the OP said the wire was two conductor enclosed in a mesh
> that did not appear to be metal. So, apparently there really is
> no separate ground.

Right. I have wiring like that in my house. My electrician calls it
"knob and tube" wiring. That's because it consists (inside the walls) of
pairs of wires several inches apart that are supported by knobs and
protected by tubes when passing through studs. It has a cloth-like layer
of insulation. Where it passes into the electrical box, there is usually
an additional layer of insulation, presumably for mechanical protection
against abrasion.

AFAIK this was the standard form of wiring until sometime in the late
50's or early 60's when Romex took over.

Although it is no longer up to code, it is perfectly safe if properly
maintained. Its only drawback is the lack of a ground line. That's why I
have added modern circuits where I use electronics.
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 7:27:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Snowdog"
> Thanks to everyone for your helpful comments. Quick recap..bass player
gets
> shocked on the lips by vocal mic while wearing his bass.
>
> I pulled the three prong outlet from the wall that the bass player plugs
> into...and sure enough, there are only two wires connected to the plug.
> There is no grounding wire. I do see a ground terminal on the outlet to
add
> a ground wire. House was built in '56.
>
> What are my options to add a ground?


**

Step 1. Buy an extension lead and plug it into an earthed outlet.

Step 2. Buy a multi outlet power adaptor - if possible one with a GFI
included.

Step 3. Have all the instrument amps plug into it.

Step 4. Plug the adaptor board into the extension lead.




............. Phil
Anonymous
September 25, 2004 9:00:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< If the wiring scheme is proper, the
ground and neutral are the same all the way back to the panel. >>



A small clarification: the ground & neutral are separate wires, but are tied
together at the service panel.
Scott Fraser
Anonymous
September 26, 2004 12:34:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Snowdog wrote:
>
>> I pulled the three prong outlet from the wall that the bass player plugs
>> into...and sure enough, there are only two wires connected to the plug.
>> There is no grounding wire. I do see a ground terminal on the outlet to add
>> a ground wire. House was built in '56.
>
>Is that legal ?

No, not even a little bit. That's the sort of thing that insurance companies
like to point at when they decide not to pay on a claim, too.

>Certainly wouldn't be in the UK.
>
>Are ungrounded outlets common in the US ?

They are very common in older construction, but it is VERY illegal to put
a three-prong outlet up without a ground connected. Older construction with
two-prong outlets is common, though. The one cheat around this is that if
a GFI is used, a three-prong outlet can be installed because the GFI
protects against ground leakage by shutting the circuit off if it detects
any imbalance.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
September 26, 2004 5:59:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Logan Shaw wrote:

> Pooh Bear wrote:
> > Snowdog wrote:
> >>There is no grounding wire. I do see a ground terminal on the outlet to add
> >>a ground wire. House was built in '56.
>
> > Is that legal ?
> >
> > Certainly wouldn't be in the UK.
> >
> > Are ungrounded outlets common in the US ?
>
> On older houses (say, 1960s or before, or maybe it's 1950s or before),
> yes they are common, but not on newer construction.

But they ought to be 2 pin sockets - right ?

I can remember that the new build UK house my family moved into in 1956 had
grounded 3 pole sockets ( but still the older 5/15Amp 'round pin' type - still
used in India - and most likely elsewhere too - before we went to rectangular pin
with internal fusing ). The round pin sockets date back to the 30s or 40s at a
guess.

> Keep in mind that, in the US, virtually everything is "new construction"
> by UK standards. We do have the occasional house that is over 100 years
> old, but it's really quite rare, and if I had to guess, I'd say 50% or
> even 75% of EVERYTHING in the US was built in the 1970s or later.

My own house is 112 yrs old. Obviously it had no electricity to begin with. The
evidence suggest that it was originally wired maybe in the 30s or 40s and
rewired probably in the 60s . Both types of cable ( remnants of the old rubber
insulated type and the new PVC insulated ) are 3 core.


Graham
Anonymous
September 26, 2004 6:17:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Snowdog wrote:
> >
> >> I pulled the three prong outlet from the wall that the bass player plugs
> >> into...and sure enough, there are only two wires connected to the plug.
> >> There is no grounding wire. I do see a ground terminal on the outlet to add
> >> a ground wire. House was built in '56.
> >
> >Is that legal ?
>
> No, not even a little bit. That's the sort of thing that insurance companies
> like to point at when they decide not to pay on a claim, too.

I'll bet they do !


> >Certainly wouldn't be in the UK.
> >
> >Are ungrounded outlets common in the US ?
>
> They are very common in older construction, but it is VERY illegal to put
> a three-prong outlet up without a ground connected.

I suspected as much. So the ungrounded 3 pin outlets are most likely installed by
a previous owner with no sense ?


> Older construction with
> two-prong outlets is common, though. The one cheat around this is that if
> a GFI is used, a three-prong outlet can be installed because the GFI
> protects against ground leakage by shutting the circuit off if it detects
> any imbalance.

As in a GFI at the 'panel' ( commonly referred to as the 'fusebox' in the UK
although it normally contains a mixture of MCBs and RCDs these days ). Mine
actually only has good old fashioned fuses but it's an older house ;-)

MCB = miniature circuit breaker ( fuse replacement )
RCD = residual current device aka. ELCB ( earth leakage current breaker ) or GFI (
US terminology ground fault interruptor ).


Graham
Anonymous
September 26, 2004 6:21:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

ScotFraser wrote:

> << If the wiring scheme is proper, the
> ground and neutral are the same all the way back to the panel. >>


>
> A small clarification: the ground & neutral are separate wires, but are tied
> together at the service panel.

In the UK, the ground conductor is only connected to neutral at the relevant
'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district.

Grounds are commonly additionally tied or 'strapped' to copper pipes carrying
the water supply. Called multiple protective ground earthing IIRC.


Graham
Anonymous
September 26, 2004 4:17:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Pooh Bear"
>
> In the UK, the ground conductor is only connected to neutral at the
relevant
> 'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district.
>

** Not true in many cases:

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical.html#system


Have a look at the TN-C-S arrangement "protective multiple earthing" -
same as the "multiple earthed neutral" as used in Aussie, NZ, USA and most
of the world.





............ Phil
Anonymous
September 26, 2004 4:17:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Phil Allison wrote:

> "Pooh Bear"
> >
> > In the UK, the ground conductor is only connected to neutral at the
> relevant
> > 'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district.
> >
>
> ** Not true in many cases:
>
> http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical.html#system
>
> Have a look at the TN-C-S arrangement "protective multiple earthing" -
> same as the "multiple earthed neutral" as used in Aussie, NZ, USA and most
> of the world.

Valid system types in the 16th Edition IEE regulations:

TN-C No separate earth conductors anywhere - neutral used as earth throughout
supply and installation (never seen this).

TN-S Probably most common, with supplier providing a separate earth conductor
back to the substation.

TN-C-S [Protective Multiple Earthing] Supply combines neutral and earth, but
they are separated out in the installation.

TT No earth provided by supplier; installation requires own earth rod (common
with overhead supply lines).

IT Supply is e.g. portable generator with no earth connection, installation
supplies own earth rod.


So - yes - it's not the default, although my example is considered the most
common ( certainly true for my own installation ).


Graham
Anonymous
September 26, 2004 6:48:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Pooh Bear"
> Phil Allison wrote:
>
> > "Pooh Bear"
> > >
> > > In the UK, the ground conductor is only connected to neutral at the
> > relevant 'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district.
> > >
> >
> > ** Not true in many cases:
> >
> > http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical.html#system
> >
> > Have a look at the TN-C-S arrangement "protective multiple
rthing" -
> > same as the "multiple earthed neutral" as used in Aussie, NZ, USA and
most
> > of the world.
>
> Valid system types in the 16th Edition IEE regulations:
>
> TN-C No separate earth conductors anywhere - neutral used as earth
throughout
> supply and installation (never seen this).
>
> TN-S Probably most common, with supplier providing a separate earth
conductor
> back to the substation.
>
> TN-C-S [Protective Multiple Earthing] Supply combines neutral and earth,
but
> they are separated out in the installation.
>
> TT No earth provided by supplier; installation requires own earth rod
(common
> with overhead supply lines).
>
> IT Supply is e.g. portable generator with no earth connection,
installation
> supplies own earth rod.
>
>
> So - yes - it's not the default, although my example is considered the
most
> common ( certainly true for my own installation ).
>


** It flatly contradicts your blatanty WRONG statement - arsehole !!!!!

" In the UK, the ground conductor is ***only*** connected to neutral at the
relevant 'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district. "





........... Phil
Anonymous
September 27, 2004 5:12:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <415619A4.FCFAB4C2@hotmail.com> in rec.audio.pro on Sun, 26
Sep 2004 02:21:40 +0100, Pooh Bear
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> says...
>
>
> ScotFraser wrote:
>
> > << If the wiring scheme is proper, the
> > ground and neutral are the same all the way back to the panel. >>


> >
> > A small clarification: the ground & neutral are separate wires, but are tied
> > together at the service panel.
>
> In the UK, the ground conductor is only connected to neutral at the relevant
> 'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district.

A number of countries - including New Zealand and Australia - use
Multiple Earthed Neutrals, or MENs.

Every switchboard has to have its own earth and neutral busbars, which
are strapped together, and a wire from the earth busbar goes to the
ground stake. Every building has its own ground stake.

>
> Grounds are commonly additionally tied or 'strapped' to copper pipes carrying
> the water supply. Called multiple protective ground earthing IIRC.

At least here, it's now illegal to use a water pipe - the ground stake
has to be dedicated to that purpose. For whatever reason the ground stake
is always outside the building and the connection is exposed and visible.
Anonymous
September 27, 2004 5:12:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Patrick Dunford wrote:

> In article <415619A4.FCFAB4C2@hotmail.com> in rec.audio.pro on Sun, 26
> Sep 2004 02:21:40 +0100, Pooh Bear
> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> says...
> >
> >
> > ScotFraser wrote:
> >
> > > << If the wiring scheme is proper, the
> > > ground and neutral are the same all the way back to the panel. >>


> > >
> > > A small clarification: the ground & neutral are separate wires, but are tied
> > > together at the service panel.
> >
> > In the UK, the ground conductor is only connected to neutral at the relevant
> > 'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district.
>
> A number of countries - including New Zealand and Australia - use
> Multiple Earthed Neutrals, or MENs.
>
> Every switchboard has to have its own earth and neutral busbars, which
> are strapped together, and a wire from the earth busbar goes to the
> ground stake. Every building has its own ground stake.
>
> >
> > Grounds are commonly additionally tied or 'strapped' to copper pipes carrying
> > the water supply. Called multiple protective ground earthing IIRC.
>
> At least here, it's now illegal to use a water pipe - the ground stake
> has to be dedicated to that purpose. For whatever reason the ground stake
> is always outside the building and the connection is exposed and visible.

My understanding is that the method you describe is more suited to remote localities
where transmission distances can be quite high.

I've heard of instances where a poor earth connection of this type has been improved
by simply pouring water onto it. A good 'ground stake' would have to penetrate to a
decent depth into moist soil to be effective.

In the days when recording studios were something special - it was common to make a
'technical earth' connection via a 'ground stake' like you describe.

Some UK installations also tie ground and neutral at the 'board' it seems.
Presumably for similar reasons ?


Graham
Anonymous
September 27, 2004 5:12:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:12:40 -0400, Patrick Dunford wrote
(in article <MPG.1bc23030192c388d98a50b@news.paradise.net.nz>):

> In article <415619A4.FCFAB4C2@hotmail.com> in rec.audio.pro on Sun, 26
> Sep 2004 02:21:40 +0100, Pooh Bear
> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> says...
>>
>>
>> ScotFraser wrote:
>>
>>> << If the wiring scheme is proper, the
>>> ground and neutral are the same all the way back to the panel. >>


>>>
>>> A small clarification: the ground & neutral are separate wires, but are
>>> tied
>>> together at the service panel.
>>
>> In the UK, the ground conductor is only connected to neutral at the relevant
>> 'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district.
>
> A number of countries - including New Zealand and Australia - use
> Multiple Earthed Neutrals, or MENs.
>
> Every switchboard has to have its own earth and neutral busbars, which
> are strapped together, and a wire from the earth busbar goes to the
> ground stake. Every building has its own ground stake.
>
>>
>> Grounds are commonly additionally tied or 'strapped' to copper pipes
>> carrying
>> the water supply. Called multiple protective ground earthing IIRC.
>
> At least here, it's now illegal to use a water pipe - the ground stake
> has to be dedicated to that purpose. For whatever reason the ground stake
> is always outside the building and the connection is exposed and visible.

Interesting. years back I had a hole blown in a motherboard of a home
security system due to (they said) multiple grounds. The control panel was
grounded to the water pipe. The phone line was grounded to a copper stake on
the other side of the house. Lightning hit the phone line down the road
somewhere, came up the phone line and Poof! a nice black hole in the center
of the motherboard.

I was told that part of the problem was the difference in ground potential
between the waterpipe ground and the copper stake phone ground.

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Anonymous
September 27, 2004 5:12:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <xeqdnbdEm-NZbsrcRVn-uQ@comcast.com> tyreeford@comcast.net writes:

> Interesting. years back I had a hole blown in a motherboard of a home
> security system due to (they said) multiple grounds. The control panel was
> grounded to the water pipe. The phone line was grounded to a copper stake on
> the other side of the house. Lightning hit the phone line down the road
> somewhere, came up the phone line and Poof! a nice black hole in the center
> of the motherboard.

This is why it's not a good idea to "improve" your studio ground with
a ground stake. That hole could be in the center of your computer
motherboard or your console.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
September 27, 2004 7:17:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 07:04:36 -0400, Ty Ford <tyreeford@comcast.net>
wrote:

>Interesting. years back I had a hole blown in a motherboard of a home
>security system due to (they said) multiple grounds. The control panel was
>grounded to the water pipe. The phone line was grounded to a copper stake on
>the other side of the house. Lightning hit the phone line down the road
>somewhere, came up the phone line and Poof! a nice black hole in the center
>of the motherboard.
>
>I was told that part of the problem was the difference in ground potential
>between the waterpipe ground and the copper stake phone ground.

I've heard that if you're caught outdoors in an exposed place during
a lightning storm, that you should squat down with your feet close
together.

The argument is that the voltage difference between your feet can
kill you. Lightning, gotta love it.

Chris Hornbeck
Anonymous
September 28, 2004 8:03:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< "Snowdog" <drisp@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks to everyone for your helpful comments. Quick recap..bass player gets
> shocked on the lips by vocal mic while wearing his bass.
>
> I pulled the three prong outlet from the wall that the bass player plugs
> into...and sure enough, there are only two wires connected to the plug.
> There is no grounding wire. I do see a ground terminal on the outlet to add
> a ground wire. House was built in '56.
>
> What are my options to add a ground? Can I connect a wire to the ground
> terminal, run it down through the wall into the crawl space under the house
> and stake it into the ground ( the earth)? >>



Doug, if there is a metal box that the wires run through, the metal box
and metal conduit are the ground (assuming it's connected properly.) So you
could use a 3 prong to 2 prong connector and connect the green ground wire to
the center screw - that's what the little horseshoe is there for.

If not, well I have had occasion to buy very heavy guage 3 wire romex and
run a new wire to a basement outlet box through a false wall from a basement
electrical panel. I ran the wire and wired the box (using reference books as a
guide), but I had my brother do the electrical panel connection part as he is
experienced and qualified in electrical matters and knows how to do such things
without getting killed by inadvertently touching a buss bar in an open panel
with a screwdriver. Not too difficult a job or a lenghthy procedure, but one
that does require knowing what you're doing.


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Anonymous
September 28, 2004 8:42:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 28 Sep 2004 04:03:44 GMT, willstg@aol.comnospam (WillStG) wrote:
> Doug, if there is a metal box that the wires run through, the metal box
>and metal conduit are the ground (assuming it's connected properly.) So you
>could use a 3 prong to 2 prong connector and connect the green ground wire to
>the center screw - that's what the little horseshoe is there for.

I really don't think that this is a safe general practice. American
houses from the 1950's (like mine) are usually wired with two
conductors and no third (safety) ground. Assuming otherwise is
not safe.

It's easy enough to do the appropriate tests that I feel that any
assumptions are inappropriate.

Maybe always remember the standards of safety are for some random
child wandering by. We tend sometimes to think in terms of our own
skunky asses, which, let's face it, are worthless. Mine especially.

Chris Hornbeck
September 28, 2004 9:03:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <daqhl01d5qsmtq0vgf04aioknhi53r4dmh@4ax.com>,
Chris Hornbeck <chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote:

> On 28 Sep 2004 04:03:44 GMT, willstg@aol.comnospam (WillStG) wrote:
> > Doug, if there is a metal box that the wires run through, the metal box
> >and metal conduit are the ground (assuming it's connected properly.) So you
> >could use a 3 prong to 2 prong connector and connect the green ground wire to
> >the center screw - that's what the little horseshoe is there for.
>
> I really don't think that this is a safe general practice. American
> houses from the 1950's (like mine) are usually wired with two
> conductors and no third (safety) ground. Assuming otherwise is
> not safe.
>
> It's easy enough to do the appropriate tests that I feel that any
> assumptions are inappropriate.
>
> Maybe always remember the standards of safety are for some random
> child wandering by. We tend sometimes to think in terms of our own
> skunky asses, which, let's face it, are worthless. Mine especially.
>
> Chris Hornbeck

never assume with electricty
George
Anonymous
September 28, 2004 9:25:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< Chris Hornbeck chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net >><< willstg@aol.comnospam
(WillStG) wrote:
> Doug, if there is a metal box that the wires run through, the metal box
>and metal conduit are the ground (assuming it's connected properly.) So you
>could use a 3 prong to 2 prong connector and connect the green ground wire to
>the center screw - that's what the little horseshoe is there for.

I really don't think that this is a safe general practice. American
houses from the 1950's (like mine) are usually wired with two
conductors and no third (safety) ground. Assuming otherwise is
not safe.
>>



It was once code in some places that the metal conduit boxes attached to
metal coiled conduit served as the ground path. If that is the case in Doug's
house, it is s simple matter of using the ground path that was intended.

But of course it shouldn't be assumed to be the case, it should be tested.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Anonymous
September 28, 2004 12:37:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Chris Hornbeck <chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote:
>On 28 Sep 2004 04:03:44 GMT, willstg@aol.comnospam (WillStG) wrote:
>> Doug, if there is a metal box that the wires run through, the metal box
>>and metal conduit are the ground (assuming it's connected properly.) So you
>>could use a 3 prong to 2 prong connector and connect the green ground wire to
>>the center screw - that's what the little horseshoe is there for.
>
>I really don't think that this is a safe general practice. American
>houses from the 1950's (like mine) are usually wired with two
>conductors and no third (safety) ground. Assuming otherwise is
>not safe.

That 2-conductor stuff was never code for commercial installs. You will
not see it anywhere but in homes.

>It's easy enough to do the appropriate tests that I feel that any
>assumptions are inappropriate.

Agreed, and it is worthwhile to keep an outlet tester around in the bag.
If you have to use a cheater on the outlet, use an outlet tester to make
sure that you have a good solid ground with the cheater in place.

>Maybe always remember the standards of safety are for some random
>child wandering by. We tend sometimes to think in terms of our own
>skunky asses, which, let's face it, are worthless. Mine especially.

Bring it to the AES show and I will have the panel check it out.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
September 28, 2004 12:43:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

WillStG <willstg@aol.comnospam> wrote:
>
> It was once code in some places that the metal condvit boxes attached to
>metal coiled condvit served as the grovnd path. If that is the case in Dovg's
>hovse, it is s simple matter of vsing the grovnd path that was intended.

This is BX cable. It was reqvired for residential installs in a few big
cities, bvt was never reqvired vniversally by the NEC. It's good stvff.

There are a covple places where even stronger local code reqvirements were
in force. My friend Kelly vsed to live in Chicago, and his hovse had real
thinwall condvit from the panel to all the ovtlets. Seems the vnion gvys
needed work. It was really a beavtifvl job... I have never seen anything
like that in a residential install before or since.
--scott

--
"C'est vn Nagra. C'est svisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
September 28, 2004 5:57:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 04:42:53 GMT, Chris Hornbeck
<chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote:
> On 28 Sep 2004 04:03:44 GMT, willstg@aol.comnospam (WillStG) wrote:
>> Doug, if there is a metal box that the wires run through, the metal box
>>and metal conduit are the ground (assuming it's connected properly.) So you
>>could use a 3 prong to 2 prong connector and connect the green ground wire to
>>the center screw - that's what the little horseshoe is there for.
>
> I really don't think that this is a safe general practice. American
> houses from the 1950's (like mine) are usually wired with two
> conductors and no third (safety) ground. Assuming otherwise is
> not safe.
>

My house is 1951. Most of the outlets were 2-prong, but all of the
wiring is with ground so correcting that was merely a matter of
installing the proper outlets.

You can temporarily attach a 3-prong outlet and use a standard outlet
tester to test whether or not a ground pate exists, but that won't tell
you about the ground quality--which can be lousy.

Armored cable (type AC or trade name "BX") isn't the best ground as it
corrodes and the metal bonding strip is easily broken. I have seen AC
cable with a separate ground, but that won't fix your existing
situation.

There's nothing "Magical" about power wiring, but it requires attention
to detail and a certain amount of know how.

If you're in doubt about something, the best thing to do is hire an
electrician to look things over. As smart as we all are, most of us
are neither electricians nor electrical engineers and aren't really
qualified to evaluate your wiring--particularly not via USENET.
Anonymous
September 28, 2004 7:10:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 00:03:44 -0400, WillStG wrote
(in article <20040928000344.01525.00001219@mb-m17.aol.com>):

> << "Snowdog" <drisp@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks to everyone for your helpful comments. Quick recap..bass player gets
>> shocked on the lips by vocal mic while wearing his bass.
>>
>> I pulled the three prong outlet from the wall that the bass player plugs
>> into...and sure enough, there are only two wires connected to the plug.
>> There is no grounding wire. I do see a ground terminal on the outlet to add
>> a ground wire. House was built in '56.
>>
>> What are my options to add a ground? Can I connect a wire to the ground
>> terminal, run it down through the wall into the crawl space under the house
>> and stake it into the ground ( the earth)? >>


>
> Doug, if there is a metal box that the wires run through, the metal box
> and metal conduit are the ground (assuming it's connected properly.) So you
> could use a 3 prong to 2 prong connector and connect the green ground wire to
> the center screw - that's what the little horseshoe is there for.
>
> If not, well I have had occasion to buy very heavy guage 3 wire romex and
> run a new wire to a basement outlet box through a false wall from a basement
> electrical panel. I ran the wire and wired the box (using reference books as

> a
> guide), but I had my brother do the electrical panel connection part as he is
> experienced and qualified in electrical matters and knows how to do such
> things
> without getting killed by inadvertently touching a buss bar in an open panel
> with a screwdriver. Not too difficult a job or a lenghthy procedure, but
> one
> that does require knowing what you're doing.
>
>
> Will Miho
> NY Music & TV Audio Guy
> Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
> "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits


Damnit Will!! Stop talking about audio!! Uh, sorry, I was momentarily
confused. I'm not used to Will being on topic.

Ty Ford





-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Anonymous
September 29, 2004 2:41:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>: Ty Ford tyreeford@comcast.net

>Damnit Will!! Stop talking about audio!! Uh, sorry, I was momentarily
>confused. I'm not used to Will being on topic.Ty Ford-- Ty Ford's equipment
>reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric stuff are at
>www.tyford.com

I see you are using a newsreader program that doesn't
automatically insert wordwrap returns too now. AOL for OSX
is a pain when I use that, the way all the sentences run
on often even when I try to format them. But HTML has been
making my OS9 crash a lot lately, and OSX is much more
stable. Oh well...


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
Anonymous
September 29, 2004 2:45:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey)

>WillStG <willstg@aol.comnospam> wrote:
>>
>> It was once code in some places that the metal conduit boxes attached to
>>metal coiled conduit served as the ground path. If that is the case in
>Doug's
>>house, it is s simple matter of using the ground path that was intended.
>
>This is BX cable. It was required for residential installs in a few big
>cities, but was never required universally by the NEC. It's good stuff.

That's what I have had in homes here in the NY/NJ area, usually most of the
house has been upgraded to 3 prong plugs with proper wiring and maybe a couple
of areas (like the basement, it's always the basement) are still 2 wire with
metal conduit as they tried to save money by not upgrading everything.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
!