Ribbon mics... which pre?

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hi everybody,
I am starting to use ribbon mics a lot but they don't sound too good with my
usual preamps....
Impedence problems?
What do I use?

Thanks
Max

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Meant "why do you USE them a lot" of course.

Sorry...

JP

"JP Gerard" <jpgerard@skynet.be> a écrit dans le message de
news:415802ff$0$4212$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
> Why do you them a lot if they don't sound too good????
>
> Yes, what do you use???
>
> JP
>
> "Maxy" <maxy888@tiscali.it> a écrit dans le message de
> news:HmS5d.20581$B06.4505@news.edisontel.com...
> > Hi everybody,
> > I am starting to use ribbon mics a lot but they don't sound too good
with
> my
> > usual preamps....
> > Impedence problems?
> > What do I use?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Max
> >
> >
>

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Maxy <maxy888@tiscali.it> wrote:
>Hi everybody,
>I am starting to use ribbon mics a lot but they don't sound too good with my
>usual preamps....

What kind of ribbon mikes?

>Impedence problems?

Maybe, what kind of preamps?

>What do I use?

I don't know. What instruments are you recording?
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Maxy wrote:

> I am starting to use ribbon mics a lot but they don't sound too good with my
> usual preamps....
> Impedence problems?
> What do I use?

What mics? What preamp? On what sources?

--
ha

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

So:
I use
oktava ML52 (x4)
beyerdynamic M130 (x2)
coles 4038 (x1)

As pre I tried behringer 1953 tube preamp, soundcraft delta lx mixer,
soundcraft B400 broadcasr mixer, mackie mixers, goldmike and presonus.

Instruments I have problems with: room mics used with acoustic instruments,
acoustic guitar, some choir, strings.
Instruments I DO NOT have problems with: drums overhead, brass section,
strong vocals, electric guitars.

The main problem is that I often have to turn my gain knob at maximum!!!
Obviously my preamp noise is very loud.

I read somewhere that there are impendence problems with ribbon microphones.

Thanks
Max




"Maxy" <maxy888@tiscali.it> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:HmS5d.20581$B06.4505@news.edisontel.com...
> Hi everybody,
> I am starting to use ribbon mics a lot but they don't sound too good with
my
> usual preamps....
> Impedence problems?
> What do I use?
>
> Thanks
> Max
>
>

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Maxy" <maxy888@tiscali.it> a écrit dans le message de
news:KrX5d.20710$B06.19951@news.edisontel.com...
> So:
> I use
> oktava ML52 (x4)
> beyerdynamic M130 (x2)
> coles 4038 (x1)
>
> As pre I tried behringer 1953 tube preamp, soundcraft delta lx mixer,
> soundcraft B400 broadcasr mixer, mackie mixers, goldmike and presonus.

The Soundcraft Delta preamps are plenty quiet on most things actually. Maybe
not enough to record ants migrations with a ribon, but with a bit of care,
acoustic guitar shouldn't be too bad. But still, 100% noise-free
recordings... probably not.

> Instruments I have problems with: room mics used with acoustic
instruments,
> acoustic guitar, some choir, strings.

Ribbon mics as ROOM MICS with ACOUSTIC INSTRUMENTS? You're asking for
trouble!!!
choir, you should be able to get relatively quiet recordings although hiss
will most likely be apparent during pauses and soft parts.

> Instruments I DO NOT have problems with: drums overhead, brass section,
> strong vocals, electric guitars.

Of course.

> The main problem is that I often have to turn my gain knob at maximum!!!
> Obviously my preamp noise is very loud.

I max out preamp gain on certain sources using moving coil dynamics; I
definitely use a lot of gain with ribbon mics, 60 dBs is not unusual.

> I read somewhere that there are impendence problems with ribbon
microphones.
>
> Thanks
> Max

Not really, but they do need proper matching. I'm pretty sure that any
decent mic pre wouldn't be too problematic; you might max out he Deltas if
you record soft sources, but they shouldn't be too noisy.

JP

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

> preamp like the Great River, the John Hardy, or even the Peavey VMP-2.

I use a VMP-2 on my M-260DX mikes and they sound great.

Taylor

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Maxy" <maxy888@tiscali.it> wrote in message
news:KrX5d.20710$B06.19951@news.edisontel.com...
> So:
> I use
> oktava ML52 (x4)
> beyerdynamic M130 (x2)
> coles 4038 (x1)
>
> As pre I tried behringer 1953 tube preamp, soundcraft delta lx mixer,
> soundcraft B400 broadcasr mixer, mackie mixers, goldmike and presonus.
>
> Instruments I have problems with: room mics used with acoustic
instruments,
> acoustic guitar, some choir, strings.
> Instruments I DO NOT have problems with: drums overhead, brass section,
> strong vocals, electric guitars.
>
> The main problem is that I often have to turn my gain knob at maximum!!!
> Obviously my preamp noise is very loud.
>
> I read somewhere that there are impendence problems with ribbon
microphones.

You're not having an impedance problem, you're having a level problem. Soft
instruments plus low-sensitivity microphones = low microphone output levels.
So yes, you have to turn the preamp's gain control up to get adequate level,
and since most of these are not hugely quiet preamps, you'll get excessive
noise.

Look for quieter preamps. The'll cost more than Behringers, Mackies and the
like, but that's really what it takes to use ribbons on quiet instruments.
And that still may not be enough; you may find that ribbons are just too
quiet for this application.

Peace,
Paul

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I've been through a few preamps lately with an R84. By far the best has
been Vintech X73i, at 300 ohm. Very strong, realistic sound, a little
"bigger than life" even. I use it maxed at 70 dB, it's not noisy.
Focusrite ISA 428 was pretty nice, also offers variable-Z, as well as 80 dB
gain. The R84 can use all of that. I haven't cared for the ribbon with
solid state preamps Grace and Klark-Teknik.

In my experience, this ribbon mic is very dependent on the preamp impedance,
low-Z is definitely better for a stronger, clearer sound. And as mentioned
by others, transformer input is usually helpful with ribbons.

Steve



"Maxy" <maxy888@tiscali.it> wrote:
> I use
> oktava ML52 (x4)
> beyerdynamic M130 (x2)
> coles 4038 (x1)
>
> As pre I tried behringer 1953 tube preamp, soundcraft delta lx mixer,
> soundcraft B400 broadcasr mixer, mackie mixers, goldmike and presonus.
>
> Instruments I have problems with: room mics used with acoustic
instruments,
> acoustic guitar, some choir, strings.
> Instruments I DO NOT have problems with: drums overhead, brass section,
> strong vocals, electric guitars.
>
> The main problem is that I often have to turn my gain knob at maximum!!!
> Obviously my preamp noise is very loud.
>
> I read somewhere that there are impendence problems with ribbon
microphones.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Do you think I colud change the transformes of the ML52?


"WillStG" <willstg@aol.comnospam> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:20040928011624.25615.00001183@mb-m17.aol.com...
> << "Maxy" maxy888@tiscali.it >>

> << So:
> I use
> oktava ML52 (x4)
> beyerdynamic M130 (x2)
> coles 4038 (x1)
>
> As pre I tried behringer 1953 tube preamp, soundcraft delta lx mixer,
> soundcraft B400 broadcasr mixer, mackie mixers, goldmike and presonus.
>
> Instruments I have problems with: room mics used with acoustic
instruments,
> acoustic guitar, some choir, strings.
> Instruments I DO NOT have problems with: drums overhead, brass section,
> strong vocals, electric guitars.
>
> The main problem is that I often have to turn my gain knob at maximum!!!
> Obviously my preamp noise is very loud.
>
> I read somewhere that there are impendence problems with ribbon
microphones. >>
>
> Are you using the direct output of the micpres direct into your
recorder?
> That improves things _a lot_. And the Soundcraft B400 is probably the
best
> mixer you have listed, it has 72db of gain on the micpres ( better than
the
> Delta and kills the Mackie et al.) Are they really too noisy? Jim
Williams at
> Audio Upgrades has a micpre modification he does on a module for about
$150, I
> might dump the Behringer and Mackie and send in a couple of modules as a
modest
> upgrade (assuming they are yours.)
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ejwilliams3/pl1.html
>
> A ribbon isn't my first choice for a room mic/s on quiet sources, I
would
> reach for a condensor first. I wish I had another M130 so I could do
Blumlein
> with them!
>
> Will Miho
> NY Music & TV Audio Guy
> Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
> "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
>
>
>

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:09:55 -0400, JP Gerard wrote
(in article <415802ff$0$4212$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be> ):

..
>> Hi everybody,
>> I am starting to use ribbon mics a lot but they don't sound too good with
> my
>> usual preamps....
>> Impedence problems?
>> What do I use?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Max

What are you using them on?

They work best with preamps that have a bit of step-up on the input
transformer.

Two come to mind. Jensen dual 990 and Amek/Neve 9098.


Input trannys that are there for coloration only, like the one in the
Millennia Media STT-1, don't help.

Ty Ford




-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Ty Ford wrote:

> I've never hear a good acoustic guitar that's helped by a ribbon. Banjo,
> accordion, yes, not a good acoustic guitar.

Context, Ty, sometimes has me enjoying acoustic guitars, even good ones,
through M160, M500, M260, and sometimes I wish I had a Royer or seven.

--
ha

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:34:36 GMT, walkinay@thegrid.net (hank alrich)
wrote:

>Ty Ford wrote:
>
>> I've never hear a good acoustic guitar that's helped by a ribbon. Banjo,
>> accordion, yes, not a good acoustic guitar.
>
>Context, Ty, sometimes has me enjoying acoustic guitars, even good ones,
>through M160, M500, M260, and sometimes I wish I had a Royer or seven.

I wouldn't use them much on a flatop guitar but I've heard that a good
archtop miced with a ribbon mic is really nice sound...

Al

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 00:42:52 -0400, Blind Joni wrote
(in article <20040929004252.15036.00004153@mb-m02.aol.com> ):

>> Context, Ty, sometimes has me enjoying acoustic guitars, even good ones,
>> through M160, M500, M260, and sometimes I wish I had a Royer or seven.
>
> Works with percussion too..in context.
>
>
> John A. Chiara
> SOS Recording Studio
> Live Sound Inc.
> Albany, NY
> www.sosrecording.net
> 518-449-1637

Percussion is totally dif.

Ty


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Maxy" <maxy888@tiscali.it> wrote in message news:<HmS5d.20581$B06.4505@news.edisontel.com>...
> Hi everybody,
> I am starting to use ribbon mics a lot but they don't sound too good with my
> usual preamps....
> Impedence problems?
> What do I use?
>
> Thanks
> Max

You need something with a 1:10 step-up ratio transformer at the input.
this wil most likely be a tube preamp.
in the tube days ribbon mikes were the norm so a lot of those pre's
are actually less noisy than the solid state pres *if they have been
refurbished*
the pres on any op-amp based mixer need to be cranked to full gain,
but were designed for high level mikes and will not sound very good.
this is also because by raising the gain you are reducing the negative
feedback of the op-amps.
op-amps without negative feedback sound shitty ,slow and noisy.
worth investing in a tube pre, or modifying a discrete preamp with FET
on the first stage by replacing the input transformer with a Jensen
1:10 ratio ..

or you can sell your mikes and get Royers -- which have a built in
step-up transformer and impedance converter.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I've got a Beyer M500 on the way. At present I have available a
Soundcraft Spirit FX8 board and a (ahem) Presonus Blue Tube pre. I'm
also considering a Studio Projects VTB-1, based on reviews I've read
here. I recall someone (was it Harvey Gerst?) saying that the VTB-1
sounded good with his vintage RCA ribbon mic. Would this translate
well to the Beyer M500? Budgetary limitations are important at the
moment.

Also, I haven't seen any posts from Stephen Sank lately. May I assume
that he's still doing ribbon mods? If so, how do I contact him?
Thanks!

Steve

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

haligonab <stevieb_@t_iglou.com> wrote in message news:<c57hm0l1mfis0mst22d153gfu202baio83@4ax.com>...
> I've got a Beyer M500 on the way. At present I have available a
> Soundcraft Spirit FX8 board and a (ahem) Presonus Blue Tube pre. I'm
> also considering a Studio Projects VTB-1, based on reviews I've read
> here. I recall someone (was it Harvey Gerst?) saying that the VTB-1
> sounded good with his vintage RCA ribbon mic. Would this translate
> well to the Beyer M500? Budgetary limitations are important at the
> moment.
>
> Also, I haven't seen any posts from Stephen Sank lately. May I assume
> that he's still doing ribbon mods? If so, how do I contact him?
> Thanks!
>
> Steve

Stephen not only does the ribbon mic mod's but works on a lot of
other gear as well. There was a recent thread about his mod's for the
Peavey VMP-2. Using this link you can see all of his posts:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl [...] untek.net+

He has posted as recently as a week ago. His signature line has all
of his contact information.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>haligonab wrote:
>
>> I've got a Beyer M500 on the way. At present I have available a
>> Soundcraft Spirit FX8 board and a (ahem) Presonus Blue Tube pre. I'm
>> also considering a Studio Projects VTB-1, based on reviews I've read
>> here. I recall someone (was it Harvey Gerst?) saying that the VTB-1
>> sounded good with his vintage RCA ribbon mic. Would this translate
>> well to the Beyer M500? Budgetary limitations are important at the
>
>
I'd hold off until you get and try the mic out. I've used a couple of M500's
on a Live 4 Soundcraft board and a A-H MixWizard without any problems at all.

Hank gave you some good advice about waiting and looking at the FMR RNP or a
Great River MP-1NV, which would put you in the big leagues.

--Wayne

-"sounded good to me"-

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:29:33 GMT, walkinay@thegrid.net (hank alrich)
wrote:

>haligonab wrote:
>
>> I've got a Beyer M500 on the way. At present I have available a
>> Soundcraft Spirit FX8 board and a (ahem) Presonus Blue Tube pre. I'm
>> also considering a Studio Projects VTB-1, based on reviews I've read
>> here. I recall someone (was it Harvey Gerst?) saying that the VTB-1
>> sounded good with his vintage RCA ribbon mic. Would this translate
>> well to the Beyer M500? Budgetary limitations are important at the
>> moment.
>
>The M500 is not much like the RCA, and has much more output than many
>ribbons. I've had no problems for years using mine with the likes of
>Mackie 1202, Soundcraft 200B, A&H GL2200 or similar grade preamps. Use
>it first with what you already have and maybe save your money for an RNP
>from FMR Audio, which would put you in possession of a very versatile
>preamp..
>
>--ha


Thanks Hank and Wayne,

I'm very glad to hear that the M500 has higher output than older RCA
ribbon mics. Hopefully the Soundcraft pres will be up to the task.
I've already been considering shelling out for an RNP and will at some
point (love the RNC), but it's not in the budget at present. Perhaps
if I sell acouple of things.

Any input on the VTB-!?

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Will Miho wrote:

> Might a product for better interfacing ribbon mics to micpres be
> a good idea [ ... ] ?

I really think so. Sanken makes an in-line "pre-preamp" (model = HAD-48)
that has a nice high input impedance, that takes phantom powering, raises
the signal level from a low-output microphone by 20 or 40 dB, and sends it
down the cable at a uniform, low impedance. I'm not sure whether the noise
levels of the Sanken doohickeys are the very best that could be achieved
(there was some discussion here about alternative approaches), but the
idea itself seems like a good one--especially these days with more and
more RF signals around us.

I intend to make some systematic tests of preamp noise whenever I get a
day or two free, and I'll be sure to check these things out; I've got a
pair (OK, no jokes please).

--best regards

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< Mike Cleaver voice.1@telus.net >>
<< Old RCA Ribbons still sound best with the old RCA tube pre's they were
designed to use (if the pre has been kept up to snuff and the mics are
in good condition (ie: meet specs for ribbon tension and condition). >>

I find a similar thing with older designed mics (like Neumann U87's and
Shure SM57's) and the micpres with transformers that were designed around the
same time (like Telefunken V78/72 V672 V276/ Neve 1272). It's not as
uncolored maybe a result as you get with many of the newer transformerless
design micpres, but it's a really great sound, a classic sound.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

Yeah...i'm devin of the surface industry....


I did the same with an apex 210. John ulriggs of shinybox and dave reichenbach are the top authorities for this type of mod.

John gave me exact wiring for the very musical cinemag... the lundahls are going up ... more fc response, but not as ballsy as the cinemag... also, cinemag takes paypal and your personal phone calls. I use a focusrite isa one( you'll never see a favorable mention on any front end audio aussie site, though , for obvious reasons with 80 db gain and two dbx 163x's and power core fabrik c. I still have noise on some tracks!!

Get a balanced output avantone red vintage with at least two ribbons balanced against each other for better sensitivity.

I am actually going to take the cinemag 'out' of the apex, and put it into the Avantone red...if still not enough gain, the isa one goes, and I'm buying the very superior American Grace 101 for 625.00!!!

Superior mic pre amp with a ribbon mode and an extra 20 db gain. no ics or capacitors.. as pure as a Massenburg!! Get the new SOS --- read the review on the 210 grace----2250.00 the 101 == 1/2 of the 201 and 'that' is the deal... even comes in black-- t= I sh_t you not devin.. Also, get some 1.8 mm ribbon material from shinybox's john ulriggs--- nice guy from washington-- not britain. between him, cinemag and the grace m101 with an Avantone symmetrical dual ribbon, you ----will-- be very happy-- no- blown the f___K away.