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Main Insert

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September 27, 2004 11:52:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Just purchased a Mackie 1604VLZ Pro for live use, and was wondering if
anyone could explain the advantage of using the "Main Insert" for EQ and
compression, as opposed just running the main mix outputs to those devices,
and then to the power amps.

TIA




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More about : main insert

Anonymous
September 27, 2004 2:31:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

smeghead wrote:
>
> Just purchased a Mackie 1604VLZ Pro for live use, and was wondering if
> anyone could explain the advantage of using the "Main Insert" for EQ and
> compression, as opposed just running the main mix outputs to those devices,
> and then to the power amps.
>
> TIA

This is a somewhat frequently asked question. When it was asked in February
of 1997 I answered, "An advantage of using the inserts is that the console's
metering then includes the effects of the EQ [and compressor]."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&thre...

--
========================================================================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
mkesti@gv.net | - The Who, Bargain
Anonymous
September 27, 2004 7:17:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"smeghead" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message news:415827e9$1_3@corp.newsgroups.com...
> Just purchased a Mackie 1604VLZ Pro for live use, and was wondering if
> anyone could explain the advantage of using the "Main Insert" for EQ and
> compression, as opposed just running the main mix outputs to those devices,
> and then to the power amps.
>
> TIA


None.... in my humble opinion.


--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com
Related resources
Anonymous
September 27, 2004 7:17:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <U9W5d.7037$Cn.1162@trnddc04>,
David Morgan \(MAMS\) <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote:
>
>"smeghead" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message news:415827e9$1_3@corp.newsgroups.com...
>> Just purchased a Mackie 1604VLZ Pro for live use, and was wondering if
>> anyone could explain the advantage of using the "Main Insert" for EQ and
>> compression, as opposed just running the main mix outputs to those devices,
>> and then to the power amps.
>
>None.... in my humble opinion.

1. If you have unbalanced EQ and compression, you can use the insert and
still get a balanced line out to the amps

2. You can very easily bypass everything in the insert loop by popping two
cables if something goes wrong in the processing chain during a concert.

Neither one of these are really big advantages.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
September 27, 2004 8:03:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< 1. If you have unbalanced EQ and compression, you can use the insert and
still get a balanced line out to the amps

2. You can very easily bypass everything in the insert loop by popping two
cables if something goes wrong in the processing chain during a concert.

Neither one of these are really big advantages.
--scott>>

Additionally, some people (not myself) like to be able to monitor the effect of
the room EQ on their phones. The major disadvantage is that, depending on the
internal architecture of the mixer, the mono sum out & matrix outputs MAY carry
the inserted signal, meaning your main L & R system EQ is also going to your
frontfills, delay clusters, etc. Some do, some don't. Also, I'd much rather
trust my main signal to a series of XLR to XLR connections, instead of a 1/4"
jack & plug.

Scott Fraser
Anonymous
September 27, 2004 8:18:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote

> >"smeghead" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote
> >> Just purchased a Mackie 1604VLZ Pro for live use, and was wondering if
> >> anyone could explain the advantage of using the "Main Insert" for EQ
and
> >> compression, as opposed just running the main mix outputs to those
devices,
> >> and then to the power amps.

> 1. If you have unbalanced EQ and compression, you can use the insert and
> still get a balanced line out to the amps
>
> 2. You can very easily bypass everything in the insert loop by popping two
> cables if something goes wrong in the processing chain during a
concert.

3. You don't have to ajust your compressor every time you move the master
fader.

4. You improve your level and thus your S/N ratio and distortion by keeping
the level thorugh EQ and compressor close to nominal level all the time.

I once used a 16 bit digital EQ between the master out and the amplifier.
At low levels in the rehersal room the EQ only used around 7-8 bits. That
did not sound very pleasant.... Plugging it into the insert instead fixed
that.

/Preben Friis
September 27, 2004 10:50:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

in regards to the mackie
if you run all your input to "0" on the meter and no clip lights you are
still overloading the mix buss
on a mackie mix at around minus 10
George
Anonymous
September 27, 2004 10:50:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Yeah, but Mackies don't work like normal mixers, so it's better to slam the
mains up to max and use the method they describe rather than do the actual
gain staging one would normally work with.

We went through this on AAPLS and everybody seemed to think I was crazy for
actually worrying about where the mic sounds best on the pre and working
from there. But I've seen John Vengrouskie take the mains up and get great
response from a 1604 VLZ (not the Pro) without a problem. The last time I
went out with his blues group I ended up using the 1604 and got great tracks
and I wasn't doing the FOH, so I still don't know how it stacks up to my
Crest XR20, but I can't imagine that it comes anywhere close. Sorry, Mackie
owners, but life revolves around what you're used to, and I'm used to the
sound of the Crest and the Soundcraft and the Soundtracs (equipment I own,
not just have used) . I consciencely made the decision not to even consider
the Mackie route for my equipment, but I have seen it work very well. It
just doesn't follow the norm and I can't say that I've been in the presence
of anyone else other than John who can make a Mackie sound good on live
sound. However, again, I will say that Tonebarge (apparently no longer
posting here) made the best use of a Mackie 1604 and two ADATS I've ever
heard.

If even just a couple of people in my minimal experience can come up with
magic, both in live sound and on recordings, then all bets are off. I
assume, however, that they understand the defiencies of the system and
adjust accordingly.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"George" <g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:g.p.gleason-28FE20.14502327092004@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> in regards to the mackie
> if you run all your input to "0" on the meter and no clip lights you are
> still overloading the mix buss
> on a mackie mix at around minus 10
> George
September 28, 2004 12:58:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>
> If even just a couple of people in my minimal experience can come up with
> magic, both in live sound and on recordings, then all bets are off. I
> assume, however, that they understand the defiencies of the system and
> adjust accordingly.

MSI(maryland sound) supplied a mackie 24 for a one off I did in silver
Spring
It stands out as one of my finest mixes ever, but it was not fun or easy
Even the MSI guys complemented me(fronm the stage to the entire
audience) on the quality of that mix
George
Anonymous
September 28, 2004 12:58:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

And there you go. When the chips are down and it's talent that makes the
difference, then talent makes the difference.

However, I still wouldn't BUY a Mackie mixer, although I still love the
SR1530s I bought.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"George" <g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:g.p.gleason-817FA0.16581627092004@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
>
> >
> > If even just a couple of people in my minimal experience can come up
with
> > magic, both in live sound and on recordings, then all bets are off. I
> > assume, however, that they understand the defiencies of the system and
> > adjust accordingly.
>
> MSI(maryland sound) supplied a mackie 24 for a one off I did in silver
> Spring
> It stands out as one of my finest mixes ever, but it was not fun or easy
> Even the MSI guys complemented me(fronm the stage to the entire
> audience) on the quality of that mix
> George
Anonymous
September 28, 2004 4:09:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Your probably don't want the compressor to be affected by the man fader,
which would esentially be messing with the threshhold.
Leaving it in the insert point let's you set the threshhold for maximum
"fatness" or whatever, and then use the mains fader to set FOH volume.

The EQ probably doesn't matter, but the insert is as good a place as any,
and then you can easily hear it in your headphones.


My 2cents.

--
John Krieger

john.krieger@att.net
"smeghead" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:415827e9$1_3@corp.newsgroups.com...
> Just purchased a Mackie 1604VLZ Pro for live use, and was wondering if
> anyone could explain the advantage of using the "Main Insert" for EQ and
> compression, as opposed just running the main mix outputs to those
devices,
> and then to the power amps.
>
> TIA
>
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
Anonymous
September 28, 2004 5:12:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< The EQ probably doesn't matter, but the insert is as good a place as any,
and then you can easily hear it in your headphones.
>>



I've never understood why anybody would want to hear the system EQ on their
cans.

Scott Fraser
September 28, 2004 12:59:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Great discussion, thanks for all your input.

Other than keeping the mains level down, (headroom issue) any suggestions
for getting a good live mix using the Mackie board?

From what I've read, using the subgroups (1-4) can be problematic, any
suggestions for getting a decent mix using them? I'd like to run the drum
mics (4) to a subgroup, but don't want to sacrafice signal quality.

Thanks again!!

"smeghead" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:415827e9$1_3@corp.newsgroups.com...
> Just purchased a Mackie 1604VLZ Pro for live use, and was wondering if
> anyone could explain the advantage of using the "Main Insert" for EQ and
> compression, as opposed just running the main mix outputs to those
devices,
> and then to the power amps.
>
> TIA
>
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----




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Anonymous
September 28, 2004 4:06:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

smeghead <nospam@nospam.net> wrote:
>Great discussion, thanks for all your input.
>
>Other than keeping the mains level down, (headroom issue) any suggestions
>for getting a good live mix using the Mackie board?

Keep the levels down even more than people have said. -20dB seems like
about as high as I'd want it. Mute any unused channels. Don't try to use
the EQ. You can use it a little bit, but it gets pretty nasty if you have
to cut more than just a little or boost at all, so the more control you have
elsewhere in the chain, the better.

>From what I've read, using the subgroups (1-4) can be problematic, any
>suggestions for getting a decent mix using them? I'd like to run the drum
>mics (4) to a subgroup, but don't want to sacrafice signal quality.

I don't know. On the 1604VLZ, I found that the subgroups all sounded
slightly different.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
September 29, 2004 12:12:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <415827e9$1_3@corp.newsgroups.com> in rec.audio.pro on Mon, 27
Sep 2004 07:52:49 -0700, smeghead <nospam@nospam.net> says...
> Just purchased a Mackie 1604VLZ Pro for live use, and was wondering if
> anyone could explain the advantage of using the "Main Insert" for EQ and
> compression, as opposed just running the main mix outputs to those devices,
> and then to the power amps.

If you want to maintain balancing on the outputs, and these devices are
unbalanced.
Anonymous
October 1, 2004 10:30:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Roger W. Norman" <rnorman@starpower.net> wrote
>
> And there you go. When the chips are down and it's talent that makes
the
> difference, then talent makes the difference.


I work with a guy who can get good mixes out of a Mackie. They still
have the Mackie's sonic signature all over them (or should I say
footprint?), but he receives constant praise for the sound he achieves.

I, sadly, lack that ability. I still stop and weigh the options when
presented with the choice of mixing on a Mackie or driving nails into my
eyes with a Hilti. I dunno how those guys do it.

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)
March 26, 2009 12:45:05 PM

I'm trying to figure some of this out. Every thing I know about sound systems i've learned in the past week. If you use the main inserts for a compressor and EQ, from where do you get the input to those? Do you either have to run a channel or group or can it process the main mix? People talk about it like you don't need an input?? Can you just plug them into the main inserts without having run a signal to them?? That seems illogical, but like I said, I don't really know what I'm doing yet. Please help.
!