Most significant producers/productions of the modern era

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Jim Klein <jimklein@ptd.net> wrote:
> While I'm not fond of most of his productions, I do believe
>that he helped shape the sound of pop music in the late 70's and 80's
>(acoustic piano doubled with Rhodes, anyone?). Anyway, I'd appreciate
>any input from you guys. Eventually, I would like to weed the list
>down to 20 -25 producers with 1-3 songs each, and really try to
>quantify each one's contribution. Here's my list so far:

This list is very pop-heavy. How about including Orrin Keepnews and
Rudy Van Gelder on the jazz side at least? Or Ken Nelson to represent
the beginnings of the modern country sound?

>I have no agenda here, other than to get this right and give the kids
>the best class for their money, so feel free to disagree with my
>choices and offer better ones. Thanks a bunch for the help

I bet if you ask George Massenburg nicely and get him a ticket, he might
be willing to give a nice talk about his philosophy.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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jimklein@ptd.net (Jim Klein) wrote:

>Hi RAP'ers -
>
>I'm developing the syllabus and curriculum for a course I'll be
>teaching in the Spring called "Survey of Modern Production
>Techniques", which will look at the evolution of modern record
>production from the late 50's/early 60's up to the present day. With
>two classes per week over a ten week term, I think there will be some
>opportunity to look at many of the important producers and their work,
>to listen and analyze what made each one important to the advancement
>of the art. I'm compiling a list of important producers and records,
>and I'd love to get some input from you guys. I'm trying to keep my
>personal taste out of it, which is why I've included David Foster, for
>example. While I'm not fond of most of his productions, I do believe
>that he helped shape the sound of pop music in the late 70's and 80's
>(acoustic piano doubled with Rhodes, anyone?). Anyway, I'd appreciate
>any input from you guys. Eventually, I would like to weed the list
>down to 20 -25 producers with 1-3 songs each, and really try to
>quantify each one's contribution. Here's my list so far:
>
>Les Paul
>Jerry Wexler
>George Martin
>Berry Gordy
>Joe Meek
>Phil Spector
>Brian Wilson
>George Massenberg
>Waronker/Titleman
>George Clinton
>Brian Eno
>Daniel Lanois
>Prince
>Teddy Riley
>Rick Rubin
>Arif Mardin
>David Foster
>Mutt Lange
>Bill Laswell
>Trevor Horn
>
>
>I have no agenda here, other than to get this right and give the kids
>the best class for their money, so feel free to disagree with my
>choices and offer better ones. Thanks a bunch for the help
>
>
>Jim Klein
>Assistant Professor, Music Industry
>Drexel University
>jlk57@drexel.edu

Al Schmitt
Tom Dowd
Don Was
Paul Rothchild

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

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In article <ead9734a.0409301410.1e70e941@posting.google.com>,
jimklein@ptd.net (Jim Klein) wrote:

> Hi RAP'ers -
>
> I'm developing the syllabus and curriculum for a course I'll be
> teaching in the Spring called "Survey of Modern Production
> Techniques", which will look at the evolution of modern record
> production from the late 50's/early 60's up to the present day.

Without a doubt, Teo Macero.

--
FL

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

You know, I think it's also important to talk about Mitch Miller. He did
some good things and some really bad things, and you can argue that he did
more than anyone else to keep rock music down, but he certainly made a
very significant impact on pop music even if it wasn't necessarily a good one.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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On 30 Sep 2004 21:54:01 -0400, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>You know, I think it's also important to talk about Mitch Miller. He did
>some good things and some really bad things, and you can argue that he did
>more than anyone else to keep rock music down, but he certainly made a
>very significant impact on pop music even if it wasn't necessarily a good one.
>--scott

So did Chet Atkins. But if you were to list tasteless producers, the
list is a long one...

Al

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<< Frank Lockwood lockwood1@sbcglobal.net >><< Without a doubt, Teo Macero. >>

You beat me to it. I can't quantify what Teo's signature contribution is
exactly , he seemed to elevate things just by touching them in a certain way.
Maybe less is more, when it's just the right thing.

I should have bought that tambourine from him.


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

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Harvey Gerst <harvey@ITRstudio.com> wrote in message news:<c63pl0tkib59v0g8jdr4qvor72gtcd3b72@4ax.com>...
> jimklein@ptd.net (Jim Klein) wrote:
>
> >Hi RAP'ers -
> >
> >I'm developing the syllabus and curriculum for a course I'll be
> >teaching in the Spring called "Survey of Modern Production
> >Techniques", which will look at the evolution of modern record
> >production from the late 50's/early 60's up to the present day. With
> >two classes per week over a ten week term, I think there will be some
> >opportunity to look at many of the important producers and their work,
> >to listen and analyze what made each one important to the advancement
> >of the art. I'm compiling a list of important producers and records,
> >and I'd love to get some input from you guys. I'm trying to keep my
> >personal taste out of it, which is why I've included David Foster, for
> >example. While I'm not fond of most of his productions, I do believe
> >that he helped shape the sound of pop music in the late 70's and 80's
> >(acoustic piano doubled with Rhodes, anyone?). Anyway, I'd appreciate
> >any input from you guys. Eventually, I would like to weed the list
> >down to 20 -25 producers with 1-3 songs each, and really try to
> >quantify each one's contribution. Here's my list so far:
> >
> >Les Paul
> >Jerry Wexler
> >George Martin
> >Berry Gordy
> >Joe Meek
> >Phil Spector
> >Brian Wilson
> >George Massenberg
> >Waronker/Titleman
> >George Clinton
> >Brian Eno
> >Daniel Lanois
> >Prince
> >Teddy Riley
> >Rick Rubin
> >Arif Mardin
> >David Foster
> >Mutt Lange
> >Bill Laswell
> >Trevor Horn
> >
> >
> >I have no agenda here, other than to get this right and give the kids
> >the best class for their money, so feel free to disagree with my
> >choices and offer better ones. Thanks a bunch for the help
> >
> >
> >Jim Klein
> >Assistant Professor, Music Industry
> >Drexel University
> >jlk57@drexel.edu
>
> Al Schmitt
> Tom Dowd
> Don Was
> Paul Rothchild
>
> Harvey Gerst
> Indian Trail Recording Studio
> http://www.ITRstudio.com/


Nigel Goldrich - He did stuff with Radiohead and Beck to name a few

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Jim Klein <jim_klein2004@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<BD823429.3EC1%jim_klein2004@comcast.net>...
> Just so everyone is clear, the focus of the course is going to be on
> producers who had an impact on how records were made, primarily on studio
> technique. Les Paul is important as a pioneer in overdubbing, for example.
> I'm in the process of researching some of the important breakthroughs, so
> I'd appreciate it if anyone that is intimately familiar with some of this
> history share that knowledge.... I am having a hard time pinpointing just
> who figured out things like doubling, varispeeding (Ross Bagdazarian,
> maybe?), using room mics, recording tons of background vocal tracks and then
> bouncing... There are so many of these techniques that are now taken for
> granted.

of late:

Trent Reznor (I hated most NIN, but do respect Reznor's work as
producer) Can't forget about Dre, either.

I wholeheartedly agree with the Templeman choice. Most of the early
'70's Warner Bros. catalog is stunning, IMO.

Philly Soul should be represented, IMO, as should Nashville in the
early 90's. 80's new wave/pop, also - the uses of synths, drum
machines, sequencers. Cool thread.

Mikey Wozniak
Nova Music Productions
This sig is haiku

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jim, if you are putting Arif and Jerry in, don't exclude Tommy Dowd.
Tom


"Jim Klein" <jimklein@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:ead9734a.0409301410.1e70e941@posting.google.com...
> Hi RAP'ers -
>
> I'm developing the syllabus and curriculum for a course I'll be
> teaching in the Spring called "Survey of Modern Production
> Techniques", which will look at the evolution of modern record
> production from the late 50's/early 60's up to the present day. With
> two classes per week over a ten week term, I think there will be some
> opportunity to look at many of the important producers and their work,
> to listen and analyze what made each one important to the advancement
> of the art. I'm compiling a list of important producers and records,
> and I'd love to get some input from you guys. I'm trying to keep my
> personal taste out of it, which is why I've included David Foster, for
> example. While I'm not fond of most of his productions, I do believe
> that he helped shape the sound of pop music in the late 70's and 80's
> (acoustic piano doubled with Rhodes, anyone?). Anyway, I'd appreciate
> any input from you guys. Eventually, I would like to weed the list
> down to 20 -25 producers with 1-3 songs each, and really try to
> quantify each one's contribution. Here's my list so far:
>
> Les Paul
> Jerry Wexler
> George Martin
> Berry Gordy
> Joe Meek
> Phil Spector
> Brian Wilson
> George Massenberg
> Waronker/Titleman
> George Clinton
> Brian Eno
> Daniel Lanois
> Prince
> Teddy Riley
> Rick Rubin
> Arif Mardin
> David Foster
> Mutt Lange
> Bill Laswell
> Trevor Horn
>
>
> I have no agenda here, other than to get this right and give the kids
> the best class for their money, so feel free to disagree with my
> choices and offer better ones. Thanks a bunch for the help
>
>
> Jim Klein
> Assistant Professor, Music Industry
> Drexel University
> jlk57@drexel.edu

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In article <msgpl0ppimnm6ndkqcvp3ufu597l0b1ddn@4ax.com>,
play on <playonATcomcast.net> wrote:
>On 30 Sep 2004 21:54:01 -0400, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>>You know, I think it's also important to talk about Mitch Miller. He did
>>some good things and some really bad things, and you can argue that he did
>>more than anyone else to keep rock music down, but he certainly made a
>>very significant impact on pop music even if it wasn't necessarily a good one.
>
>So did Chet Atkins. But if you were to list tasteless producers, the
>list is a long one...

Yes, but most tasteless producers didn't have anywhere _near_ the impact.
Mitch gets credit for being one of the most significant producers of his
era, AND having the lack of taste.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 11:47:08 -0400, bluesrock03 <bluesrock003@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Opinions may vary but I think Jimmy Page deserves to be mentioned.
>
>

Why did you include *name of producer you think is overrated*

But not *name of producer you think is under appreciated*

Any list like this needs to be finite. Moreover, even Classical
musicians ebb and flow in their perceived "greatness."

A satirical book on the subject put it this way: "There are four
musicians who qualify as "Great".. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, and your
personal favorite."

I'd wager the same rule applies here.

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Why are only Pop and Jazz producers included.....


Rgds:
Eric

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Don't forget the invaluable contributions of Jacob Roney!




Joe Egan
EMP
Colchester, VT
www.eganmedia.com

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We should maybe include some of the better-known Jamaican producers on
this list. People like Lee Perry and King Tubby have been incredibly
influential on a younger generation of producers and musicians. It
could be argued that Lee Perry practically invented trip-hop... he was
also responsible for Bob Marley really finding his sound (Marley stole
Perry's house rhythm section). Many contemporary productions owe a
large debt to Jamaican dub music... those guys knew how to make
mononaural recordings sound huge.

Al

On 30 Sep 2004 23:15:56 -0700, novamusic@hotmail.com (Mikey) wrote:

>Jim Klein <jim_klein2004@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<BD823429.3EC1%jim_klein2004@comcast.net>...
>> Just so everyone is clear, the focus of the course is going to be on
>> producers who had an impact on how records were made, primarily on studio
>> technique. Les Paul is important as a pioneer in overdubbing, for example.
>> I'm in the process of researching some of the important breakthroughs, so
>> I'd appreciate it if anyone that is intimately familiar with some of this
>> history share that knowledge.... I am having a hard time pinpointing just
>> who figured out things like doubling, varispeeding (Ross Bagdazarian,
>> maybe?), using room mics, recording tons of background vocal tracks and then
>> bouncing... There are so many of these techniques that are now taken for
>> granted.
>
>of late:
>
>Trent Reznor (I hated most NIN, but do respect Reznor's work as
>producer) Can't forget about Dre, either.
>
>I wholeheartedly agree with the Templeman choice. Most of the early
>'70's Warner Bros. catalog is stunning, IMO.
>
>Philly Soul should be represented, IMO, as should Nashville in the
>early 90's. 80's new wave/pop, also - the uses of synths, drum
>machines, sequencers. Cool thread.
>
>Mikey Wozniak
>Nova Music Productions
>This sig is haiku

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Jim Klein" <jimklein@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:ead9734a.0409301410.1e70e941@posting.google.com...
> Phil Spector
> Brian Wilson

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I think a nod should goto

+ Eddie Offord
Ian Anderson
++ Frank Zappa (and most of those involved)


ds


--


"Dan Chamberlain" <lisaduparcatering@hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:lug7d.302241$Fg5.267421@attbi_s53...
> Bob Clearmountain
> Tony Visconti
>
> are important to me also.....
>
>

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Joe Boyd.
John Simon [he produced "The Band", an album whose sound was copied
wholesale for several years].
Bill Leader.

Peace,
Paul Stamler

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For lots of imitated studio techniques (or at least sonic techniques), you
might want to think about the Mitchell Froom/Tchad Blake partnership
(although I think TB had more to do with the sound).

And Steve Albini has had an impact on how things have been done in the past
ten years.

I also second the poster who recommended Chet Atkins.

Myles

"Jim Klein" <jimklein@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:ead9734a.0409301410.1e70e941@posting.google.com...
> Hi RAP'ers -
>
> I'm developing the syllabus and curriculum for a course I'll be
> teaching in the Spring called "Survey of Modern Production
> Techniques", which will look at the evolution of modern record
> production from the late 50's/early 60's up to the present day. With
> two classes per week over a ten week term, I think there will be some
> opportunity to look at many of the important producers and their work,
> to listen and analyze what made each one important to the advancement
> of the art. I'm compiling a list of important producers and records,
> and I'd love to get some input from you guys. I'm trying to keep my
> personal taste out of it, which is why I've included David Foster, for
> example. While I'm not fond of most of his productions, I do believe
> that he helped shape the sound of pop music in the late 70's and 80's
> (acoustic piano doubled with Rhodes, anyone?). Anyway, I'd appreciate
> any input from you guys. Eventually, I would like to weed the list
> down to 20 -25 producers with 1-3 songs each, and really try to
> quantify each one's contribution. Here's my list so far:
>
> Les Paul
> Jerry Wexler
> George Martin
> Berry Gordy
> Joe Meek
> Phil Spector
> Brian Wilson
> George Massenberg
> Waronker/Titleman
> George Clinton
> Brian Eno
> Daniel Lanois
> Prince
> Teddy Riley
> Rick Rubin
> Arif Mardin
> David Foster
> Mutt Lange
> Bill Laswell
> Trevor Horn
>
>
> I have no agenda here, other than to get this right and give the kids
> the best class for their money, so feel free to disagree with my
> choices and offer better ones. Thanks a bunch for the help
>
>
> Jim Klein
> Assistant Professor, Music Industry
> Drexel University
> jlk57@drexel.edu

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play on wrote:

> On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 03:05:18 GMT, Les Cargill
> <lcargill@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Those guys were mostly consistent with the mores of the time. We
>>can't sit here and assume we know better just because we can review
>>the accumulated work and pick favorites.
>
>
> And why can't we??? Standing the test of time is the *ultimate* way
> to evaluate music and musical production I'd say. Some recordings
> remain timeless while others sound impossibly dated and hack.
>
> Al

Because we can't. We just apply a different set of prejudices.

There are probably a very few, very weak inter subjective absolutes
in music recording, but it's a cultural artifact and not likely to
be amenable to canceling out all possible observer bias.

Some of those old recordings don't make sense unless you played 'em
back on commonly available equipment. Old jukeboxes still make 'em
sound good.

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about minimalist/documentary
styles of recording. In those, there's a way to compare the
inputs and outputs.

--
Les Cargill

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david wrote:

> Nobody said Jimmy Miller.

Smack 'em up 'side the head!

--
ha

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> You know, I think it's also important to talk about Mitch Miller. He did
> some good things and some really bad things, and you can argue that he did
> more than anyone else to keep rock music down, but he certainly made a
> very significant impact on pop music even if it wasn't necessarily a good one.
> --scott

"He invented the Greatest Hits album, putting together a Johnny Mathis
package which cost the company nothing and is still selling today.
...... But Miller had too much power and not enough taste. At Mercury
he had been involved with the Charlie Parker With Strings album, which
was let down by Jimmy Carroll's banal arrangements;

At Columbia Frank Sinatra had a minor hit with 'Goodnight Irene' '50
accompanied by a chorus directed by Miller, whose loud stiffness was
the antithesis of what the song was about; Harry James said he left
Columbia because Miller wanted him to record stuff like 'Ghost Riders
In The Sky'. Sinatra blamed Miller unfairly for the slump in his
career during those years.

A great many musicians blamed Miller for degrading popular music with
his whooping French horns (on Guy Mitchell's pseudo-folksongs) and
cheapening Clooney's records with an amplified harpsichord, and mainly
for his choice of material. He would do anything to grab the
listener's attention; he once put bagpipes on a Dinah Shore release,
and disc jockeys took the record off and broke it over the air. A few
years later when Sinatra was making classic albums at Capitol which
are still selling today, Miller was having hits with witless junk like
'Yellow Rose Of Texas', a 19th-century campfire song with incessant
snare drums, the sort of thing that Stan Freberg gleefully satirized.

Miller was one of the first to take advantage of tape recording to
make vocalists sing along with previously recorded backing, which a
good singer hated to do; on one such occasion he came down from the
booth to dance around in front of Jo Stafford to get her in the mood.
(She told him to get back in the booth where he belonged.)

At a recording session in London '71 the producer tried to put Tony
Bennett into a vocalist's booth separated from the orchestra; Bennett
said, 'I never sang in a box in my life. Mitch Miller invented that
gag and I could never go along with it. Just put me out front next to
the piano; that'll feel more like a real performance.'

Such unmusical innovations in favour of the technology were the
beginning of a lot of trashy recordings, but it was Miller's job to
make money for the label, and Columbia in those years had a higher
hits-to- releases ratio than any other; it wasn't Miller but
broadcasters who saw to it that the hits of the early '50s were noisy
jolly junk, because they fitted neatly between the advertising
jingles. In fact Miller made a speech at a disc jockey convention '58
accusing them of abandoning their programming to children; they gave
him a standing ovation, but the Storz broadcasting chain, sponsoring
the convention, then banned Columbia records just as payola was
becoming big business.

To give Miller credit, he was an honest man; he could make deals with
songwriters etc because he always kept his word and never took a piece
of a song, and he never paid anybody to play a record.

As the rock'n'roll era began he passed on Buddy Holly, and bid for
Elvis Presley '55 but would not meet Tom Parker's price. He did not
join the ignorant chorus who wanted to censor rock'n'roll (saying on
one occasion 'You can't call any music immoral') but he disliked the
direction the business was taking, though he had unwittingly prepared
the ground for it......

He effectively abdicated to conduct singalongs on TV; Sing Along With
Mitch '58 with a male chorus was a no. 1 album for eight weeks,
followed by 20 more in four years, nearly all top ten LPs. This was
all very well, but had no influence on anything, while the singles
charts were taken over by the trashy likes of Fabian and Frankie
Avalon, selling as many records for cynical independents as Miller had
done in his prime. Columbia's market share slipped until the Clive
Davis era of the late '60s."

http://www.musicweb.uk.net/encyclopaedia/m/M194.HTM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <7ecb413a.0410030158.1463ca25@posting.google.com> johnston_west@hotmail.com writes:

> A great many musicians blamed Miller for degrading popular music with
> his whooping French horns (on Guy Mitchell's pseudo-folksongs) and
> cheapening Clooney's records with an amplified harpsichord, and mainly
> for his choice of material. He would do anything to grab the
> listener's attention

Isn't that just what a producer (or in fact everyone involved in
commercial music production) is supposed to do?

> ; he once put bagpipes on a Dinah Shore release,
> and disc jockeys took the record off and broke it over the air.

That certainly grabbed people's attention, and I'll bet it made some
sales. Good for him (both of them).

> Miller was one of the first to take advantage of tape recording to
> make vocalists sing along with previously recorded backing, which a
> good singer hated to do; on one such occasion he came down from the
> booth to dance around in front of Jo Stafford to get her in the mood.
> (She told him to get back in the booth where he belonged.)

Yet this is the way records are made today, sometimes even with
dancing producers. Don't forget the Lava Lamps and incense too. Of
course it helps to know the artist and do things that will encourage a
good performance.

> Such unmusical innovations in favour of the technology were the
> beginning of a lot of trashy recordings, but it was Miller's job to
> make money for the label

Exactly. And once his techniques got the rough edges taken off, they
became the way records were made.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

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"Johnston West" <johnston_west@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7ecb413a.0410030158.1463ca25@posting.google.com...

> A few
> years later when Sinatra was making classic albums at Capitol which
> are still selling today, Miller was having hits with witless junk like
> 'Yellow Rose Of Texas', a 19th-century campfire song with incessant
> snare drums, the sort of thing that Stan Freberg gleefully satirized.

The encyclopedia from which you're quoting got that wrong, IMHO. "Yellow
Rose of Texas" was a song with some guts behind it, about the mistress of
Mexican general Santa Ana that was very popular among the soldiers fighting
the Mexican war. Supposedly, she passed on Santa Ana's battle plans to the
US forces, enabling them to win the battle of San Jacinto, although there's
a certain logistical difficulty involved that makes this claim dubious. The
witlessness wasn't in the song, but in Mitch Miller's ghastly arrangement.

Peace,
Paul

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Paul Stamler <pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:

> The witlessness wasn't in the song, but in Mitch Miller's ghastly
> arrangement.

What he said; what's not to like in a song about a frontier mulatto
hooker?

--
ha

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>This list is very pop-heavy.

Exactly. Does he mean significant COMMERCIALLY or significant MUSICALLY?
Big gap there!
"I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between
what you say and what you think you have said."
-george (paraphrased)