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Lip Syncing live vs Auto tune for recording

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October 27, 2004 1:43:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Regarging the Ashlee error....

Many folks have expressed the opinion that lip syncing during a live
performance is some kind of mis-representation and not a good thing.

Let me ask this then....

Why do you think it is it OK to use auto tune and other aids for a
studio recording but not OK to use lip syncing for a live show?

Both are mis-representations.

But where do you draw the line?

Is doubling a vocal OK?

How about close talking the mic to enhance the bass? (male vocals)

Does any of this really matter... its all fake anyway?

(I think it would make a great comedy skit for SNL to poke fun at
themselves now and have a performer obviously lip syncing i.e. have a
skinny white guy lip syncing along to Barry White or something :-)

Mark
Anonymous
October 27, 2004 5:44:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Why do you think it is it OK to use auto tune and other aids for a
> studio recording but not OK to use lip syncing for a live show?

Auto-Tune is a cosmetic effect which when used in moderation does not
necessarily detract from the expressiveness of the performance, though it
certainly can. The mere idea that the singer is not actually performing
while lip-syncing completely destroys the credibility element that's vital
to expression.

I think both are unacceptable, but lip-syncing is more destructive
artisticly. I manually correct vocal aberrations here and there, which is a
far cry from a blanket process that affects good passages too. I'm
confident that Auto-Tune will pass like big reverb from the 80's.
Lip-syncing I'm afraid is here to stay.
Anonymous
October 27, 2004 8:55:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mark wrote:

>Regarging the Ashlee error....
>
>Many folks have expressed the opinion that lip syncing during a live
>performance is some kind of mis-representation and not a good thing.
>
>Let me ask this then....
>
>Why do you think it is it OK to use auto tune and other aids for a
>studio recording but not OK to use lip syncing for a live show?

I don't think it's that she lip sync'd to it - it's that SHE TOTALLY SPAZZED
OUT in a really un-bjorkin'-professional way



>
>Both are mis-representations.
>
>But where do you draw the line?
>
>Is doubling a vocal OK?
>
>How about close talking the mic to enhance the bass? (male vocals)
>
>Does any of this really matter... its all fake anyway?
>
>(I think it would make a great comedy skit for SNL to poke fun at
>themselves now and have a performer obviously lip syncing i.e. have a
>skinny white guy lip syncing along to Barry White or something :-)
>
>Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Anonymous
October 28, 2004 5:03:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mark wrote:

> Why do you think it is it OK to use auto tune and other aids for a
> studio recording but not OK to use lip syncing for a live show?

I don't take an interest in autunation. I don't take an interest in lip
syncing unless it's locking my lips in sync with Lanis.

--
ha
Anonymous
October 28, 2004 7:42:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Because a "studio recording" is heavy on editing and processing (for the most
part), thats why its a "studio recording", a "live gig" is supposed to be just
that, a "live gig".
In most honest mind's it is dishonest to fake a live gig. Ever since the Mili
Vanily thing (about 10 years ago) there have been a load of pop dance act's
that have followed the trend. I remember when ELO got busted for doing it in
the late 70's, in there case they should have used a string section and some
back-up musicians in there show. In the case of the new pop act's that can't
even sing without a backing track or autotune they should look for some other
type of job.
Anonymous
October 28, 2004 7:58:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mark" <makolber@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3367f36e.0410270843.73f38d@posting.google.com...
> Regarging the Ashlee error....
>

I think one of the worst (and obviously wrong) things was when she said
"everyone does it" thereby impugning the talent and hard work of a lot of
real live performers.
Anonymous
October 28, 2004 7:59:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I remember seeing Queen live, and they all left the stage for the
opera part in Bohemian Rhapsody while a prerecorded tape played.
Obviously they couldn't reproduce it live and this gave them a way of
performing their biggest hit. It was disappointing, but at least they
didn't try to pretend they were actually playing it. And they were
definitely the real thing.
October 28, 2004 1:42:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Iarwain wrote:

> I remember seeing Queen live, and they all left the stage for the
> opera part in Bohemian Rhapsody while a prerecorded tape played.
> Obviously they couldn't reproduce it live and this gave them a way of
> performing their biggest hit. It was disappointing, but at least they
> didn't try to pretend they were actually playing it. And they were
> definitely the real thing.

Or, they could have hired a choir. It was common for top level bands (who
could bear the expense) to gig with a backing orchestra even back then.

If you point is that there are grey areas, then I'll agree. But what
happened on SNL was not in any grey area.
Anonymous
October 28, 2004 7:17:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Or, they could have hired a choir.

Hey, that would have been cool! They probably didn't want to spend
the money for one minute's worth of material, and it certainly
wouldn't have sounded the same. As a member of the audience, though,
I would have preferred it.

> If you point is that there are grey areas, then I'll agree. But what
> happened on SNL was not in any grey area.

Nah, I didn't have a point really. The conversation just reminded me
of the Queen story, so I told it.

As for Ashlee, I actually like a few of her songs. I think it's
apparent she has some talented people behind her who helped put her
album together. Whether or not she appreciates them is another story.
Anonymous
October 28, 2004 8:52:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Autotune is an instrument, an aid, call it as you like...
LIVE performance means LIVE!!!!! She could have been dead and the music
would have not change...
I am not against lip synking but please don't call it LIVE performance!!!
A studio recording can be everything, you should not care if the sound you
hear is a synth, a vocal or a dog... I am selling you a record with sounds
so I can do whatever I want to make it sound right.
If you are selling me a LIVE performance, well baby, you must be alive and
kiking!


"Mark" <makolber@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:3367f36e.0410270843.73f38d@posting.google.com...
> Regarging the Ashlee error....
>
> Many folks have expressed the opinion that lip syncing during a live
> performance is some kind of mis-representation and not a good thing.
>
> Let me ask this then....
>
> Why do you think it is it OK to use auto tune and other aids for a
> studio recording but not OK to use lip syncing for a live show?
>
> Both are mis-representations.
>
> But where do you draw the line?
>
> Is doubling a vocal OK?
>
> How about close talking the mic to enhance the bass? (male vocals)
>
> Does any of this really matter... its all fake anyway?
>
> (I think it would make a great comedy skit for SNL to poke fun at
> themselves now and have a performer obviously lip syncing i.e. have a
> skinny white guy lip syncing along to Barry White or something :-)
>
> Mark
Anonymous
October 28, 2004 8:52:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> > Many folks have expressed the opinion that lip syncing during a live
> > performance is some kind of mis-representation and not a good thing.
> >
> > Let me ask this then....
> >
> > Why do you think it is it OK to use auto tune and other aids for a
> > studio recording but not OK to use lip syncing for a live show?

Being the recording nerds we are, we tend to forget that 99.9% of
music consumers are not familiar with the recording process that
underlies what they're hearing on the radio or stealing off the web!
What people hear is a magical "wall of sound." Multi-tracking,
overdubbing? Auto-Tune? C'com people!

Though music fans might be given credit for being vaguely aware,
through media or word of mouth, that electronic manipulation is common
place, they cannot not isolate it while listening and couldn't tell
you what effect is being used. When recording nerds or savvy musicians
go to the supermarket for beer & Suzy fake-boobs comes over the
distributed PA with her voice obscured and dripping with auto-tune, we
*know*. Some of us smile at how clever we are for knowing, while the
older audio nerds among us make an effort not to vomit, the nausea
building up with each vocoder sounding vocal utterance, with every
edited to death phrase, down to the de-essing & removal of breathing
sounds between lines. We gasp for air and wash our brains out with
beer as soon as we make it out of the store.

I would say that the reason most people don't object to auto-tune and
fake performances is they don't know it when it's happening and it
does they probably don't care. After all, it is only music. What gets
pop music fans all hot & bothered generally has nothing to do with
melody, harmony, arrangement, recording style or any of that other
stuff that musicians & engineers pick apart, but rather the celebrity
aspect, the carefully orchestrated media persona, the larger than life
fantasy of what's projected in their imaginations.

Personally, I loathe auto-tune, scoff at lip sync, & though I don't
object to it's use in music videos, I do believe that it's silly. I'd
much prefer a series of artistically manipulated abstract images,
symbolism or even a bit of visual story telling without the lip sync.
I don't need to see the musicians pretending to play. But then, music
videos are a follow the leader activity, a "look at me!" kind of thing
that's used to promote the artist and not necessarily some manner of
personal expression. That whole delineation between art & pop tart
product is pretty easy for most people, so I don't worry about it.
Some are prone to savor the nuances of self indulgent sirloin
expression while others prefer a momentary taste of sweet, impersonal
& simple ear candy. Sometimes it just depends on the mood one is in.
In any case, auto-tune and lip syncing will likely be with us
indefinitely, though perhaps not always enjoying such popularity as
they are now.
Recording styles will come and go, technology with evolve and whether
artist, entertainer or somewhere in between, people will use what's
available.

The witch doctor screams while dancers undulate around the fire and
people in the village gather around, eyes wide in the magic of the
moment.

What the hell, it's something to do! :-)


Skearler
Anonymous
October 28, 2004 10:21:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

For our evening news, our director wanted to pre-record the anchor
reading the story about Ashlee, then have her lip-synch it live on air.
Since there's no way in hell the lip synch would be even close, it would
be really obvious and thus much merriment would ensue with the giggling
and the laughing and some slapping of the knees. I thought it was a
great idea, but the talent wouldn't go for it.

Even if the anchor had been willing to play along, the News Director
probably would have fired us all anyway. It would have been worth it
though!

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)

"Mark" <makolber@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3367f36e.0410270843.73f38d@posting.google.com...
> Regarging the Ashlee error....
>
> Many folks have expressed the opinion that lip syncing during a live
> performance is some kind of mis-representation and not a good thing.
>
> Let me ask this then....
>
> Why do you think it is it OK to use auto tune and other aids for a
> studio recording but not OK to use lip syncing for a live show?
>
> Both are mis-representations.
>
> But where do you draw the line?
>
> Is doubling a vocal OK?
>
> How about close talking the mic to enhance the bass? (male vocals)
>
> Does any of this really matter... its all fake anyway?
>
> (I think it would make a great comedy skit for SNL to poke fun at
> themselves now and have a performer obviously lip syncing i.e. have a
> skinny white guy lip syncing along to Barry White or something :-)
>
> Mark
Anonymous
October 29, 2004 12:01:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>Or, they could have hired a choir. It was common for top level bands (who
>could bear the expense) to gig with a backing orchestra even back then.

Yeah, ELP tried that..wht did they do..3 shows? Not practiacal for an arean
tour on the road.


I saw one.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637
October 29, 2004 5:58:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Lorin David Schultz" <Lorin@DAMNSPAM!v5v.ca> writes:

>For our evening news, our director wanted to pre-record the anchor
>reading the story about Ashlee, then have her lip-synch it live on air.
>Since there's no way in hell the lip synch would be even close, it would
>be really obvious and thus much merriment would ensue with the giggling
>and the laughing and some slapping of the knees. I thought it was a
>great idea, but the talent wouldn't go for it.

I think it was Keith Olbermann who did this on his report.
October 29, 2004 6:03:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

antcopter@hotmail.com (skler) writes:
>I would say that the reason most people don't object to auto-tune and
>fake performances is they don't know it when it's happening and it
>does they probably don't care. After all, it is only music. What gets
>pop music fans all hot & bothered generally has nothing to do with
>melody, harmony, arrangement, recording style or any of that other
>stuff that musicians & engineers pick apart, but rather the celebrity
>aspect, the carefully orchestrated media persona, the larger than life
>fantasy of what's projected in their imaginations.


Back when I was a youth, I'd always watch the live performances on
The Sullivan show, Smothers Bros, etc. But I'd never sit through
the lip-sync stuff on TV. My dad once asked me why I didn't want
to watch some TV performance of a band he knew I liked. I told
him they were miming, not playing live. He couldn't tell the
diff, and wondered how I knew. I can't recall if this was before
or just after I had started to try to play in a band, but I could
definitley hear the difference, and was amazed that HE couldn't.
October 29, 2004 6:07:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

iarwain_8@hotmail.com (Iarwain) writes:
>As for Ashlee, I actually like a few of her songs. I think it's
>apparent she has some talented people behind her who helped put her
>album together. Whether or not she appreciates them is another story.

Yeah. Even the live band was excellent, at least from the replays
on the news. When they realized the wrong song was playing, they latched
onto it VERY quickly and copped a nice sound and groove.
Anonymous
October 29, 2004 6:19:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 29 Oct 2004 14:03:50 GMT, georgeh <georgeh@gjhsun.cl.msu.edu> wrote:
> antcopter@hotmail.com (skler) writes:
> Back when I was a youth, I'd always watch the live performances on
> The Sullivan show, Smothers Bros, etc. But I'd never sit through
> the lip-sync stuff on TV. My dad once asked me why I didn't want
> to watch some TV performance of a band he knew I liked. I told
> him they were miming, not playing live. He couldn't tell the
> diff, and wondered how I knew. I can't recall if this was before
> or just after I had started to try to play in a band, but I could
> definitley hear the difference, and was amazed that HE couldn't.

I was watching the Dina Shore show . . either I was not yet in school or
perhaps I was home sick that day.

Mike Nesmith was on the show:

Dina: "So you're going to do a song for us?"

Mike: "Oh yes, I'm the best lip-syncer in the World."

Dina: *looks horribly embarassed as mike moves to the "performance"
area

Mike: *Demonstrates that he is, indeed, highly skilled at lipsync as he
unplugs the mic, switches it for a comb, and generally makes light of
what everyone knows must be happening*

I also remember him goofing on the lip sync during The Monkees shows.
He'd have an electric guitar with a short broken cord, a guitar with no
strings, an accoustic with his tie woven through the strings . . .
Anonymous
October 29, 2004 8:00:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Erich" <littlegreenman68@yahoo.com> wrote in message > I agree with you on
primary parts... but no click track/no
> samples/sequences? I have to humbly disagree. I have a fantasy band
> where we do EVERYTHING to click. Everything is MIDI'd together.
> Patches are called - FX are switched - Lights are run and video is
> synched to MIDI.

How sterile and non-spontaneous..

geoff
Anonymous
October 31, 2004 12:29:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> > Back when I was a youth, I'd always watch the live performances on
> > The Sullivan show, Smothers Bros, etc. But I'd never sit through
> > the lip-sync stuff on TV. My dad once asked me why I didn't want
> > to watch some TV performance of a band he knew I liked. I told
> > him they were miming, not playing live. He couldn't tell the
> > diff, and wondered how I knew. I can't recall if this was before
> > or just after I had started to try to play in a band, but I could
> > definitley hear the difference, and was amazed that HE couldn't.


That's really neat. :-)

Partly it's innate ability, kind of like some people have a higher
"music IQ" and part is ear-brain training. Like, I can do math but
seem to do it in a very visual way, which is much slower than the way
people who are gifted and very intuitive with it. My dad is good at
math; he's an electrical engineer, where as I'm better at writing &
recording music & especially with rhythm. I can tell it frustrates him
sometimes, but honestly, it frustrates me that math appears effortless
and me, I'm always pulling my hair out!



> Mike Nesmith was on the show:
>
> Dina: "So you're going to do a song for us?"
>
> Mike: "Oh yes, I'm the best lip-syncer in the World."
>
> Dina: *looks horribly embarassed as mike moves to the "performance"
> area
>
> Mike: *Demonstrates that he is, indeed, highly skilled at lipsync as he
> unplugs the mic, switches it for a comb, and generally makes light of
> what everyone knows must be happening*
>
> I also remember him goofing on the lip sync during The Monkees shows.
> He'd have an electric guitar with a short broken cord, a guitar with no
> strings, an accoustic with his tie woven through the strings . . .

That's really funny. :-) I always thought Nesmith had a great sense
of humor but I hadn't heard that story! One of my old room-mates
pulled that same trick. He appeared on Solid Gold to perform "Fire"
with Arther Brown. He told all of his friends to watch and when they
"played" he had a ridiculously large tie on and it was woven between
the strings of his bass. You couldn't see it 'till part way through
the song, so it was pretty funny. :-) Upon returning home we asked
him about it and he said the studio had a drum kit that all the bands
used for syncing & it had plastic cymbals!

Skler
!