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Burning (reliable) audio CDs?

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Anonymous
October 27, 2004 9:20:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I'm sure this has been asked before, but does anyone know how to burn
*reliable* audio CDs.

I'm using standard 80 minute CDR blanks, but I have a lot of problems with
skips when I play them on inexpensive consumer units. In particular, I have
long tracks (60 minutes or more), but there will often be skips in them. I'm
using the Linux program "cdrecord" to burn.

Should I be using high quality media? Or perhaps burning slower? Or???

Thanks for any tips...

Richard
Anonymous
October 27, 2004 11:02:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<Mannr@uwaterloo.ca> wrote in message news:874qkfrh73.fsf@uwaterloo.ca

> I'm sure this has been asked before, but does anyone know how to burn
> *reliable* audio CDs.

You might want to play them on players that were designed to play CD-Rs.

> I'm using standard 80 minute CDR blanks, but I have a lot of problems
> with skips when I play them on inexpensive consumer units.

More likely consumer units that are old or in a bad state of repair.
Anonymous
October 28, 2004 3:07:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hey Richard,

I've burned hundreds of CDs and had only one failure, likely something I
did, that was at least a year ago.

I buy the cheapest I can find, brands mean dick.

Try recording at a slower speed. Still have problems, must be yer burner or
process...likely not the discs IMHO.

Cheers,

-rj---
www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca
www.lchb.ca


<Mannr@uwaterloo.ca> wrote in message news:874qkfrh73.fsf@uwaterloo.ca...
> I'm sure this has been asked before, but does anyone know how to burn
> *reliable* audio CDs.
>
> I'm using standard 80 minute CDR blanks, but I have a lot of problems with
> skips when I play them on inexpensive consumer units. In particular, I
have
> long tracks (60 minutes or more), but there will often be skips in them.
I'm
> using the Linux program "cdrecord" to burn.
>
> Should I be using high quality media? Or perhaps burning slower? Or???
>
> Thanks for any tips...
>
> Richard
Related resources
Anonymous
October 28, 2004 3:07:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

**bg** wrote:
>
> I buy the cheapest I can find, brands mean dick.

OK, right.
Anonymous
October 28, 2004 6:00:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mannr@uwaterloo.ca wrote in news:874qkfrh73.fsf@uwaterloo.ca:

> I'm sure this has been asked before, but does anyone know how to burn
> *reliable* audio CDs.
>
> I'm using standard 80 minute CDR blanks, but I have a lot of problems
> with skips when I play them on inexpensive consumer units. In
> particular, I have long tracks (60 minutes or more), but there will
> often be skips in them. I'm using the Linux program "cdrecord" to
> burn.
>
> Should I be using high quality media? Or perhaps burning slower?
> Or???

Rules for recording good CD's.

1) Hardware rules. A good recorder on good media will usually burn a
readable CDR. I use Tayo Yuden CD's. They invented the format.

2) Give it enough speed. Feed the recorder fast enough that it doesn't
have to turn off the laser and wait for the buffer to refill. That
requires:
a) put the CD burner on a separate controller from the hard disk
supplying the data (assuming an IDE burner, not SCSI or external).
b) running the burn slow enough that the buffer remains full.

The software is only responsible for marshalling the data from the hard
disk to the record buffer. Any software that manages that task
successfully will be good enough.

Remember that not all CD players can read ANY given CD-R. "Real" CD's are
pressed and respond differently to a CD reader's laser than does a CD-R.
Nearly all modern players can read both, but some old or dirty units may
have trouble on ANY given CD-R.
Anonymous
October 28, 2004 9:18:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 27 Oct 2004 17:20:48 -0400, Mannr@uwaterloo.ca wrote:

>I'm sure this has been asked before, but does anyone know how to burn
>*reliable* audio CDs.
>
>I'm using standard 80 minute CDR blanks,

Use 74 minute CDR's (still available from specialty/recording
supply places such as tapewarehouse.com, not available retail for
years, Mitsui appears to be a good brand) if the recording will fit,
and if it won't, consider trimming it so it does. The original CD
format specified, IIRC, 63 minutes, and longer playing time is
technically out of spec, and the longer the playing time, the more out
it is and the more likely older players won't play it.
It used to be that 1x was burning speed for the lowest errors and
widest compatibility, but the new burners sold nowadays for $40-$50
have a minimum speed of 4x. Try different speeds and see if/how much
difference it makes.

>but I have a lot of problems with
>skips when I play them on inexpensive consumer units. In particular, I have
>long tracks (60 minutes or more), but there will often be skips in them. I'm
>using the Linux program "cdrecord" to burn.
>
>Should I be using high quality media? Or perhaps burning slower? Or???

Try all these, but read (at least some of) http://www.cdrfaq.org
first, it may answer lots of your questions.
Test each brand/speed/<other variables> combination on every CD
player you have, or at least on the older models. If you don't have an
older model, go to a thrift store and buy one. I have a 1980's vintage
Multitech player that CREAKS when the tray slides open and closed, but
it plays the CDR's I make. This is the crudest, most time-consuming
but most effective way to make CDR's that will reliably play in the
widest range of players.

>Thanks for any tips...
>
> Richard

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley
October 28, 2004 1:34:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Try using 74 min CDs.They are more compatible with CD players.Try to find 74
min Mitsui CDs.



<Mannr@uwaterloo.ca> wrote in message news:874qkfrh73.fsf@uwaterloo.ca...
> I'm sure this has been asked before, but does anyone know how to burn
> *reliable* audio CDs.
>
> I'm using standard 80 minute CDR blanks, but I have a lot of problems with
> skips when I play them on inexpensive consumer units. In particular, I
have
> long tracks (60 minutes or more), but there will often be skips in them.
I'm
> using the Linux program "cdrecord" to burn.
>
> Should I be using high quality media? Or perhaps burning slower? Or???
>
> Thanks for any tips...
>
> Richard
Anonymous
October 28, 2004 4:09:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <obv0o0lijakjvn42v739jr6nae9tpii69r@4ax.com> ben_nospam_bradley@mindspring.com writes:

> It used to be that 1x was burning speed for the lowest errors and
> widest compatibility, but the new burners sold nowadays for $40-$50
> have a minimum speed of 4x. Try different speeds and see if/how much
> difference it makes.

I use 10X on my 24x and 48x drives and it seems to work fine with
garden variety blanks. One problem I've been having (which seems to be
settled for the moment with Taiyo Yuden Silver blanks) is finding
modern CDRs that work in a 1X (real time) recorder. Those Verbatum
disks that look like 45 RPM records are 16X last time I checked, and
they might be fine, but I never got around to trying them before
finding a blank that worked.

> >but I have a lot of problems with
> >skips when I play them on inexpensive consumer units.

This is a function of the player. If the disk will play on any one
player, it's technically OK, but there are no parameters you can
measure or even specifications you can verify that will assure
playability under the worst of conditions.

If your business is delivering working CDRs, you just have to
experiment to find blanks that work well in your drives. If you're
making CDRs for convenience, be prepared to make a replacement now and
then. And if you find someone with a player that can't play any of
your disks, tell them to get a new player or get theirs fixed. Life is
tough and a little unpredictable in the consumer electronics world.


In particular, I have
> >long tracks (60 minutes or more), but there will often be skips in them. I'm
> >using the Linux program "cdrecord" to burn.
> >
> >Should I be using high quality media? Or perhaps burning slower? Or???
>
> Try all these, but read (at least some of) http://www.cdrfaq.org
> first, it may answer lots of your questions.
> Test each brand/speed/<other variables> combination on every CD
> player you have, or at least on the older models. If you don't have an
> older model, go to a thrift store and buy one. I have a 1980's vintage
> Multitech player that CREAKS when the tray slides open and closed, but
> it plays the CDR's I make. This is the crudest, most time-consuming
> but most effective way to make CDR's that will reliably play in the
> widest range of players.
>
> >Thanks for any tips...
> >
> > Richard
>
> -----
> http://mindspring.com/~benbradley


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
October 28, 2004 9:49:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<Mannr@uwaterloo.ca> wrote in message news:874qkfrh73.fsf@uwaterloo.ca...
> I'm sure this has been asked before, but does anyone know how to burn
> *reliable* audio CDs.
>
> I'm using standard 80 minute CDR blanks, but I have a lot of problems with
> skips when I play them on inexpensive consumer units.

It's the inexpensive consumer units that are 'unreliable' then.

> In particular, I have
> long tracks (60 minutes or more), but there will often be skips in them.
> I'm
> using the Linux program "cdrecord" to burn.
>
> Should I be using high quality media? Or perhaps burning slower? Or???

No, use a high quality OS ! (joking). I would be a little suspicious of
doing anything 'realtime' in Linux, but that's not based on experience. I
guess if the CD-R ain't a coaster, then the drive has done it's thing OK.

Seriously though, CD-Rs are at best a compromise. Their reflectivity is a
fraction of that of replicated CDs, not to mention any other factors. &4
minute CDs should have a pre-groove that is wider than 80s, and easier to
track. But these days I suspect 74 minute media is really 80 minute media
with an ATIP programmed to say 74.

So one does the best one can, which is to find a media that gives consistant
results on the widest range of players. Traditionally this has been Mitsui
or Taiyo Yuden. I find SKC to be consistant and highly 'compatible', and is
a real manufacturer.

geoff
Anonymous
October 28, 2004 9:49:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:49:20 +0200, Geoff Wood wrote:
> <Mannr@uwaterloo.ca> wrote in message
> news:874qkfrh73.fsf@uwaterloo.ca...
>> I'm sure this has been asked before, but does anyone know how to burn
>> *reliable* audio CDs.
>>
>> I'm using standard 80 minute CDR blanks, but I have a lot of problems
>> with skips when I play them on inexpensive consumer units.
>
> It's the inexpensive consumer units that are 'unreliable' then.

There are consumer reader units with problems you can't fix. In my
experience CD writers have a limitted lifetime too. Do buy new ones from
time to time.

>> In particular, I have
>> long tracks (60 minutes or more), but there will often be skips in
>> them. I'm
>> using the Linux program "cdrecord" to burn.
>>
>> Should I be using high quality media? Or perhaps burning slower? Or???
>
> No, use a high quality OS ! (joking). I would be a little suspicious
> of doing anything 'realtime' in Linux, but that's not based on
> experience. I guess if the CD-R ain't a coaster, then the drive has
> done it's thing OK.

My professional experience with realtime Linux over the last decade is
good. Even in the time when everyone understood "?in?ws is ?erfe?t f?r
b?ckgro?nd ?ommun?cat?on" (First years of MS experience with 2400 baud
data and fax modems)

Cdrecord is a good program to burn CD's, I've created 100's of CD's
without problems. I used to read the written CD's on an old CD reader to
check the written tracks byte for byte on errors. I stopped with that as I
never found problems this way.

Tips: use good CD-R's and a not too old CD writer. Use a large program
buffer (-fs=32M) write the disk at once (-dao), some readers have problems
with seperate tracks, and use a not too high speed (on my system -speed=12
or -speed=16), so that the buffer will be full all of the time. Use -v to
better see what is happening.

--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com
October 28, 2004 10:59:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Taiyo Yudens will work at 1X also HHB makes a line of high end CDs designed
to work under 4X,they are perfect for mastering.



Mike Rivers <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1098972334k@trad...
>
> In article <obv0o0lijakjvn42v739jr6nae9tpii69r@4ax.com>
ben_nospam_bradley@mindspring.com writes:
>
> > It used to be that 1x was burning speed for the lowest errors and
> > widest compatibility, but the new burners sold nowadays for $40-$50
> > have a minimum speed of 4x. Try different speeds and see if/how much
> > difference it makes.
>
> I use 10X on my 24x and 48x drives and it seems to work fine with
> garden variety blanks. One problem I've been having (which seems to be
> settled for the moment with Taiyo Yuden Silver blanks) is finding
> modern CDRs that work in a 1X (real time) recorder. Those Verbatum
> disks that look like 45 RPM records are 16X last time I checked, and
> they might be fine, but I never got around to trying them before
> finding a blank that worked.
>
> > >but I have a lot of problems with
> > >skips when I play them on inexpensive consumer units.
>
> This is a function of the player. If the disk will play on any one
> player, it's technically OK, but there are no parameters you can
> measure or even specifications you can verify that will assure
> playability under the worst of conditions.
>
> If your business is delivering working CDRs, you just have to
> experiment to find blanks that work well in your drives. If you're
> making CDRs for convenience, be prepared to make a replacement now and
> then. And if you find someone with a player that can't play any of
> your disks, tell them to get a new player or get theirs fixed. Life is
> tough and a little unpredictable in the consumer electronics world.
>
>
> In particular, I have
> > >long tracks (60 minutes or more), but there will often be skips in
them. I'm
> > >using the Linux program "cdrecord" to burn.
> > >
> > >Should I be using high quality media? Or perhaps burning slower?
Or???
> >
> > Try all these, but read (at least some of) http://www.cdrfaq.org
> > first, it may answer lots of your questions.
> > Test each brand/speed/<other variables> combination on every CD
> > player you have, or at least on the older models. If you don't have an
> > older model, go to a thrift store and buy one. I have a 1980's vintage
> > Multitech player that CREAKS when the tray slides open and closed, but
> > it plays the CDR's I make. This is the crudest, most time-consuming
> > but most effective way to make CDR's that will reliably play in the
> > widest range of players.
> >
> > >Thanks for any tips...
> > >
> > > Richard
> >
> > -----
> > http://mindspring.com/~benbradley
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
October 29, 2004 12:40:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Troy" <alternate-root@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:kkbgd.46038$%k.1142@pd7tw2no...
> Taiyo Yudens will work at 1X also HHB makes a line of high end CDs
> designed
> to work under 4X,they are perfect for mastering.

.... and of course "Audio" CD-R media must work at 1x .

geoff
October 29, 2004 12:40:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

OK....whatever that means??????


Geoff Wood <geoff@paf.co.nz-nospam> wrote in message
news:MWbgd.23830$mZ2.879652@news02.tsnz.net...
>
> "Troy" <alternate-root@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:kkbgd.46038$%k.1142@pd7tw2no...
> > Taiyo Yudens will work at 1X also HHB makes a line of high end CDs
> > designed
> > to work under 4X,they are perfect for mastering.
>
> ... and of course "Audio" CD-R media must work at 1x .
>
> geoff
>
>
Anonymous
October 29, 2004 12:40:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:22:59 GMT, "Troy" <alternate-root@shaw.ca>
wrote:

>OK....whatever that means??????

He surely means CDR's sold as "Music CD-R"s that have the bit set
that tells a standalone recorder that it's okay, these have the "Tape
Tax" paid on them, and this tax allegedly makes its way to the
recording artists who get pirated on these consumer recorders. You can
use these "Music CDR's" as data CDR's in a computer CD/RW drive, but
data CDR's won't record in a consumer standalone recorder.

>
>
>Geoff Wood <geoff@paf.co.nz-nospam> wrote in message
>news:MWbgd.23830$mZ2.879652@news02.tsnz.net...
>>
>> "Troy" <alternate-root@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>> news:kkbgd.46038$%k.1142@pd7tw2no...
>> > Taiyo Yudens will work at 1X also HHB makes a line of high end CDs
>> > designed
>> > to work under 4X,they are perfect for mastering.
>>
>> ... and of course "Audio" CD-R media must work at 1x .
>>
>> geoff
>>
>>
>

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley
Anonymous
October 29, 2004 4:26:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <nbfgd.46386$nl.7794@pd7tw3no> alternate-root@shaw.ca writes:

> OK....whatever that means??????

> > ... and of course "Audio" CD-R media must work at 1x .

There was (maybe it's a has-been now) a consumer audio CD recorder
product that was sold in places like Circuit City and Best Buy that
was allowed to be brought to market only if the blank recording media
could have a royalty fee attached to it, said fee supposedly to be
distributed to the artists who were losing sales because people were
recording their work rather than buying it pre-recorded. Those
recorders required a special blank rather than s computer CD-R in
order to record. That's an "audio" CD-R.

Since these are real-time recorders, they record at 1X speed. The Xs
in a CD recorder/writer mean the number of times real-time speed they
will write.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
October 29, 2004 7:59:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Ben Bradley" <ben_nospam_bradley@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:ub73o05n78thr7ctd35ll2bj10nlp77n41@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 23:22:59 GMT, "Troy" <alternate-root@shaw.ca>
> wrote:
>
>>OK....whatever that means??????
>
> He surely means CDR's sold as "Music CD-R"s that have the bit set
> that tells a standalone recorder that it's okay, these have the "Tape
> Tax" paid on them, and this tax allegedly makes its way to the
> recording artists who get pirated on these consumer recorders. You can
> use these "Music CDR's" as data CDR's in a computer CD/RW drive, but
> data CDR's won't record in a consumer standalone recorder.

.... and and (presumably) they work at 1x , unless the recorder buffers the
signal and writes in bursts. Or else one would have to sing multiples of
octaves higher than normal !

geoff
Anonymous
October 30, 2004 10:08:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>
>I'm using standard 80 minute CDR blanks, but I have a lot of problems with
>skips when I play them on inexpensive consumer units. In particular, I
>have
>long tracks (60 minutes or more), but there will often be skips in them.
> I'm
>using the Linux program "cdrecord" to burn.
>
>Should I be using high quality media? Or perhaps burning slower? Or???
>
>Thanks for any tips...
>
> Richard
>
>

Don't use standard 80 minute CDR's , use 74 Minute CDR's. Mitsui (MAM) may be
the only manufactuter of these now, they are the only thing I use for Masters
and if a client has a problem with one of the duplicates that I make on 80
minute CDR's I replace it with one of the Mitsui 74's.

I've been burning CDR's since the Sony was the only machine available for
burning ($30,000 for the machine/software and $35.00/disc.). I never had
trouble until the CDR 80's came out.



Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty
Anonymous
October 31, 2004 12:44:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Richard Kuschel" <rickpv8945@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041030140822.22480.00001797@mb-m06.aol.com...
> >
> >I'm using standard 80 minute CDR blanks, but I have a lot of problems
with
> >skips when I play them on inexpensive consumer units. In particular, I
> >have
> >long tracks (60 minutes or more), but there will often be skips in them.
> > I'm
> >using the Linux program "cdrecord" to burn.
> >
> >Should I be using high quality media? Or perhaps burning slower? Or???
> >
> >Thanks for any tips...
> >
> > Richard
> >
> >
>
> Don't use standard 80 minute CDR's , use 74 Minute CDR's. Mitsui (MAM) may
be
> the only manufactuter of these now, they are the only thing I use for
Masters
> and if a client has a problem with one of the duplicates that I make on 80
> minute CDR's I replace it with one of the Mitsui 74's.
>
> I've been burning CDR's since the Sony was the only machine available for
> burning ($30,000 for the machine/software and $35.00/disc.). I never had
> trouble until the CDR 80's came out.
>
>
>
> Richard H. Kuschel
> "I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

could be your burn speed. since newer software &/or burners usuall only
burns 8x minimum. some better burners allow slower more accurate burning of
audio files.
Anonymous
October 31, 2004 12:10:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Richard Kuschel" <rickpv8945@aol.com> wrote in message >
> Don't use standard 80 minute CDR's , use 74 Minute CDR's. Mitsui (MAM) may
> be
> the only manufactuter of these now, they are the only thing I use for
> Masters
> and if a client has a problem with one of the duplicates that I make on 80
> minute CDR's I replace it with one of the Mitsui 74's.
>
> I've been burning CDR's since the Sony was the only machine available for
> burning ($30,000 for the machine/software and $35.00/disc.). I never had
> trouble until the CDR 80's came out.
>

I had about a 60% failure rate when media was that price. But I had an
HP4020i ....

geoff
Anonymous
October 31, 2004 12:10:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 22:10:26 +0200, Geoff Wood wrote:
> "Richard Kuschel" <rickpv8945@aol.com> wrote in message >
>> I've been burning CDR's since the Sony was the only machine available
>> for burning ($30,000 for the machine/software and $35.00/disc.). I
>> never had trouble until the CDR 80's came out.
>>
>>
> I had about a 60% failure rate when media was that price. But I had an
> HP4020i ....

The HP4020i was later: in 1995 writer about $1300, media pices about $8,
but I recognize the failure rate. But if you remember that prices, DVD
writers at $75 CD media at $0.20 and DVD media at $0.60 seems quite a
bargain.

--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com
Anonymous
October 31, 2004 2:34:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 22:44:07 -0500, greggery peccary wrote
(in article <cm1n27$i9n$1@gnus01.u.washington.edu>):

>
> "Richard Kuschel" <rickpv8945@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20041030140822.22480.00001797@mb-m06.aol.com...
>>>
>>> I'm using standard 80 minute CDR blanks, but I have a lot of problems
> with
>>> skips when I play them on inexpensive consumer units. In particular, I
>>> have
>>> long tracks (60 minutes or more), but there will often be skips in them.
>>> I'm
>>> using the Linux program "cdrecord" to burn.
>>>
>>> Should I be using high quality media? Or perhaps burning slower? Or???
>>>
>>> Thanks for any tips...
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Don't use standard 80 minute CDR's , use 74 Minute CDR's. Mitsui (MAM) may
> be
>> the only manufactuter of these now, they are the only thing I use for
> Masters
>> and if a client has a problem with one of the duplicates that I make on 80
>> minute CDR's I replace it with one of the Mitsui 74's.
>>
>> I've been burning CDR's since the Sony was the only machine available for
>> burning ($30,000 for the machine/software and $35.00/disc.). I never had
>> trouble until the CDR 80's came out.
>>
>>
>>
>> Richard H. Kuschel
>> "I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty
>
> could be your burn speed. since newer software &/or burners usuall only
> burns 8x minimum. some better burners allow slower more accurate burning of
> audio files.


I've heard conflicting reports about burn speed. In the early days slower
seemed better when problems happened. A few years ago, someone put forth the
idea that, in some cases, faster was better.

Don't know what to make of it, but I've been using TaiyoYuden Golds and some
Mitsui silvers. The Golds have been very solid. Just starting to use the
MAM-A Mitsuis.

Regards,

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Anonymous
October 31, 2004 7:41:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Chel van Gennip" <chel@vangennip.nl> wrote in message
news:2uikbjF2b16i7U1@uni-berlin.de...
> On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 22:10:26 +0200, Geoff Wood wrote:
>> "Richard Kuschel" <rickpv8945@aol.com> wrote in message >
>>> I've been burning CDR's since the Sony was the only machine available
>>> for burning ($30,000 for the machine/software and $35.00/disc.). I
>>> never had trouble until the CDR 80's came out.
>>>
>>>
>> I had about a 60% failure rate when media was that price. But I had an
>> HP4020i ....
>
> The HP4020i was later: in 1995 writer about $1300, media pices about $8,
> but I recognize the failure rate. But if you remember that prices, DVD
> writers at $75 CD media at $0.20 and DVD media at $0.60 seems quite a
> bargain.


Yeah, I was actually paying around @ NZ$25 which was US$15 at the time, I
think...

geoff
Anonymous
November 1, 2004 3:29:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <_ZKdnYFQrbC6iRjcRVn-gw@comcast.com> tyreeford@comcast.net writes:

> I've heard conflicting reports about burn speed. In the early days slower
> seemed better when problems happened. A few years ago, someone put forth the
> idea that, in some cases, faster was better.

With most of today's blanks, faster is better, but only a little
faster. 4X to whatever speed you find to be unreliable. Top speed is
usually reliable for data, but errors which are completely correctable
in computer data when writing at top speed are often too dense for
correction during real time audio playback.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
November 4, 2004 7:36:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Richard Kuschel <rickpv8945@aol.com> wrote:

> Don't use standard 80 minute CDR's , use 74 Minute CDR's. Mitsui (MAM) may be
> the only manufactuter of these now, they are the only thing I use for Masters
> and if a client has a problem with one of the duplicates that I make on 80
> minute CDR's I replace it with one of the Mitsui 74's.

> I've been burning CDR's since the Sony was the only machine available for
> burning ($30,000 for the machine/software and $35.00/disc.). I never had
> trouble until the CDR 80's came out.

I have a question: Do all Mitsui CDRs actually say "Mitsui" in the middle?
One of the local stores sells ones as Mitsui that don't have that written
in the middle. My choices are limited in that I am using the ink-jet
printables and there are only a few choices if you don't want the white
ones.

Rob R.
Anonymous
November 4, 2004 7:36:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <cmdlqr$1mu$1@news1.chem.utoronto.ca>,
Rob Reedijk <reedijk@hera.med.utoronto.ca> wrote:
>Richard Kuschel <rickpv8945@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Don't use standard 80 minute CDR's , use 74 Minute CDR's. Mitsui (MAM) may be
>> the only manufactuter of these now, they are the only thing I use for Masters
>> and if a client has a problem with one of the duplicates that I make on 80
>> minute CDR's I replace it with one of the Mitsui 74's.
>
>> I've been burning CDR's since the Sony was the only machine available for
>> burning ($30,000 for the machine/software and $35.00/disc.). I never had
>> trouble until the CDR 80's came out.
>
>I have a question: Do all Mitsui CDRs actually say "Mitsui" in the middle?
>One of the local stores sells ones as Mitsui that don't have that written
>in the middle. My choices are limited in that I am using the ink-jet
>printables and there are only a few choices if you don't want the white
>ones.

Not all of them do, BUT lots of stuff is also rebadged inaccurately too.
If your drive can interrogate to see what the identification code on the
blank is, this will tell you a lot.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
November 4, 2004 8:59:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>
>I have a question: Do all Mitsui CDRs actually say "Mitsui" in the middle?
>One of the local stores sells ones as Mitsui that don't have that written
>in the middle. My choices are limited in that I am using the ink-jet
>printables and there are only a few choices if you don't want the white
>ones.
>
>Rob R.
>
>

No, Now they say MAM-A , they changed the name, but they are the same discs.

they are also available in silver inkjet printable as well as white.

Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty
Anonymous
November 5, 2004 9:19:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Start out with a Plextor Premium from Newegg (~$75) with true EFM,
etc. A bargain.
Familiarize your self with Plextools Pro.

Download the free Eac (Exact Audio Copy)
Invest in a reliable burning software that suits your needs--I use
CDRWin but there are several out there. Nero is useful but not that
reliable.

Calibrate the CD offset for both reading and writing. Offset values
are listed on the internet if you do not wish to bother with the test
CDs. This will ensure that you can produce exact copies for archival
work as well as mastering.

Take a selection of known wave files, burn them to CD @ 4x

Rip the wave files to the HD and use the file compare of EAC to see if
they are them same.

Repeat this process a few times.

They should be EXACTLY the same EVERY time.
This is a bit of an oversimplification, and does not touch on subjects
like AWS, but that is more or less the best strategy I have seen so
far. And to be practical, I don't get the clicks that you referred to
anymore.

Repeat this process with a variety of CD burners and media and you
will notice that they are often NOT exactly the same. Usually the
errors are in the range of a few hundred samples but at high speeds
you will see way more errors. If I do a calibration run for all my
gear, I usually get a few over 2000 samples., and these usually come
from the DVD burners, which generally neither burn nor real digital
audio very well.


For critical burning, use only Taiyo Yuden, especially blue dye. The
plextor will also allow you to turn up the laser power slightly for
fussy players such as car players. I keep a couple of very marginal CD
players here to test for compatibility, and burning a CD @ 4x onto TY
has always played in any player

The advanced tools for the plextor will show you the optimum speed for
your CDs by showing you the number of errors. For CDs that I sell, I
always burn at 4x. For less formal wear and tear, I use 12x. On
inexpensive media I often see dropouts at low speed--I just burned an
HP cd tonight that was full of missing samples.

Burning sample accurate CDs used to be very complicated, now it is
inexpensive and the hard work has been done. Everyone has different
ways of doing this; for mastering I like to know that the CD that
leaves here is an exact copy of the final bounce.

In addition, there are now many masters that were burned onto CDs
which are starting to slowly go bad, and these techniques will allow
you to burn longer lasting masters as well as recover all of the audio
from the old ones--even material in the leadin/leadout areas for
drives that were not offset corrected.

Plextor error correction is I believe natively supported in Samplitude
and Sequoia; I haven't tested it, but in any case the ripping
algorithms are better in EAC and Plextools.

The EAC program is useful for many types of audio recovery from poor
quality disks. A 24x plextor is generally considered to have the best
lens for his kind of work, and the can often be found on Ebay, ymmv.

For most work, the Plextor Premium is fine.

If jitter is a problem you may consider the yamaha burners. They are
hard to find. The Yamaha is not as reliable a reader as the Plextor,
but can burn larger pits in the CD.

Several of the Lite-on burners are good if you wish to save a few
dollars, but they do not have the advanced features of the Plextor.
and the price of the plextor has come way down now.

If you work with horrifically scratched CDs you might consider a
Cyberdyne as well, due to the perfect C2 recovery, but the 24x plextor
might be even better.

jj



On 27 Oct 2004 17:20:48 -0400, Mannr@uwaterloo.ca wrote:

>I'm sure this has been asked before, but does anyone know how to burn
>*reliable* audio CDs.
>
>I'm using standard 80 minute CDR blanks, but I have a lot of problems with
>skips when I play them on inexpensive consumer units. In particular, I have
>long tracks (60 minutes or more), but there will often be skips in them. I'm
>using the Linux program "cdrecord" to burn.
>
>Should I be using high quality media? Or perhaps burning slower? Or???
>
>Thanks for any tips...
>
> Richard
Anonymous
November 6, 2004 4:09:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

J. Joyce <ineluctable@modality.com> writes:

> Start out with a Plextor Premium from Newegg (~$75) with true EFM,
> etc. A bargain.
> Familiarize your self with Plextools Pro.
>
> Download the free Eac (Exact Audio Copy)
> Invest in a reliable burning software that suits your needs--I use
> CDRWin but there are several out there. Nero is useful but not that
> reliable.
>
> Calibrate the CD offset for both reading and writing. Offset values
> are listed on the internet if you do not wish to bother with the test
> CDs. This will ensure that you can produce exact copies for archival
> work as well as mastering.
>
> Take a selection of known wave files, burn them to CD @ 4x
>
> Rip the wave files to the HD and use the file compare of EAC to see if
> they are them same.
>
> Repeat this process a few times.
>
> They should be EXACTLY the same EVERY time.
> This is a bit of an oversimplification, and does not touch on subjects
> like AWS, but that is more or less the best strategy I have seen so
> far. And to be practical, I don't get the clicks that you referred to
> anymore.
>
> Repeat this process with a variety of CD burners and media and you
> will notice that they are often NOT exactly the same. Usually the
> errors are in the range of a few hundred samples but at high speeds
> you will see way more errors. If I do a calibration run for all my
> gear, I usually get a few over 2000 samples., and these usually come
> from the DVD burners, which generally neither burn nor real digital
> audio very well.
>
>
> For critical burning, use only Taiyo Yuden, especially blue dye. The
> plextor will also allow you to turn up the laser power slightly for
> fussy players such as car players. I keep a couple of very marginal CD
> players here to test for compatibility, and burning a CD @ 4x onto TY
> has always played in any player
>
> The advanced tools for the plextor will show you the optimum speed for
> your CDs by showing you the number of errors. For CDs that I sell, I
> always burn at 4x. For less formal wear and tear, I use 12x. On
> inexpensive media I often see dropouts at low speed--I just burned an
> HP cd tonight that was full of missing samples.
>
> Burning sample accurate CDs used to be very complicated, now it is
> inexpensive and the hard work has been done. Everyone has different
> ways of doing this; for mastering I like to know that the CD that
> leaves here is an exact copy of the final bounce.
>
> In addition, there are now many masters that were burned onto CDs
> which are starting to slowly go bad, and these techniques will allow
> you to burn longer lasting masters as well as recover all of the audio
> from the old ones--even material in the leadin/leadout areas for
> drives that were not offset corrected.
>
> Plextor error correction is I believe natively supported in Samplitude
> and Sequoia; I haven't tested it, but in any case the ripping
> algorithms are better in EAC and Plextools.
>
> The EAC program is useful for many types of audio recovery from poor
> quality disks. A 24x plextor is generally considered to have the best
> lens for his kind of work, and the can often be found on Ebay, ymmv.
>
> For most work, the Plextor Premium is fine.
>
> If jitter is a problem you may consider the yamaha burners. They are
> hard to find. The Yamaha is not as reliable a reader as the Plextor,
> but can burn larger pits in the CD.
>
> Several of the Lite-on burners are good if you wish to save a few
> dollars, but they do not have the advanced features of the Plextor.
> and the price of the plextor has come way down now.
>
> If you work with horrifically scratched CDs you might consider a
> Cyberdyne as well, due to the perfect C2 recovery, but the 24x plextor
> might be even better.
>
> jj
>
>
>
> On 27 Oct 2004 17:20:48 -0400, Mannr@uwaterloo.ca wrote:
>
> >I'm sure this has been asked before, but does anyone know how to burn
> >*reliable* audio CDs.
> >
> >I'm using standard 80 minute CDR blanks, but I have a lot of problems with
> >skips when I play them on inexpensive consumer units. In particular, I have
> >long tracks (60 minutes or more), but there will often be skips in them. I'm
> >using the Linux program "cdrecord" to burn.
> >
> >Should I be using high quality media? Or perhaps burning slower? Or???
> >
> >Thanks for any tips...
> >
> > Richard

Dear J:

Thanks for all the suggestions. Finally, someone admits that this is a real
problem, and I'm not imagining it. It just amazes me that this has not been
solved yet. I guess like everything in the PC world, you should assume it
does not work unless it can be proven otherwise!

Richard
Anonymous
November 6, 2004 7:05:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<Mannr> wrote:

> Finally, someone admits that this is a real
> problem, and I'm not imagining it. It just amazes me that this has not been
> solved yet. I guess like everything in the PC world, you should assume it
> does not work unless it can be proven otherwise!

A Mac's a "PC", too, and using both the built-in burner of a 2002
TiBook, an outboard Gplyph/Plextor Wildfire burner, and a standalone HHB
burner I have never burned a coaster that wasn't my own damn fault. I
generally use Costco TDK's for bulk stuff, and Fuji for a supposedly
better CDR and Mitsui 8x for supposedly even better. But whateve I've
used, no coasters, no skips, and so forth. So it isn't a problem for
everybody or for all systems.

--
ha
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 8:28:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:
>
> In article <_ZKdnYFQrbC6iRjcRVn-gw@comcast.com> tyreeford@comcast.net writes:
>
> > I've heard conflicting reports about burn speed. In the early days slower
> > seemed better when problems happened. A few years ago, someone put forth the
> > idea that, in some cases, faster was better.
>
> With most of today's blanks, faster is better, but only a little
> faster. 4X to whatever speed you find to be unreliable. Top speed is
> usually reliable for data, but errors which are completely correctable
> in computer data when writing at top speed are often too dense for
> correction during real time audio playback.

In my informal tests with a Plextor Premium drive and T-Y discs I've
found that 16X gives me slightly lower error rates than 4 or 8X. I feel
that there is little point going faster than 16X as most drives start to
use variable speeds above that - the inner part of the disc may be
burned at 16X while the outer part of the disc will be burned at a
higher speed. Only the very outer part of the disc will be burned at the
speed you select if you try to burn at 32X or faster.

There's no real substitute for experimentation - try burning a variety
of discs at a variety of speeds and then test them with a drive that can
check error rates like the Plextor Premium or certain LiteOn drives.

Cheers.

James.
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 8:34:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Richard Kuschel wrote:

>
> Don't use standard 80 minute CDR's , use 74 Minute CDR's. Mitsui (MAM) may be
> the only manufactuter of these now, they are the only thing I use for Masters
> and if a client has a problem with one of the duplicates that I make on 80
> minute CDR's I replace it with one of the Mitsui 74's.
>
> I've been burning CDR's since the Sony was the only machine available for
> burning ($30,000 for the machine/software and $35.00/disc.). I never had
> trouble until the CDR 80's came out.
>

I'm still a little worried about Mitsui discs since the company
re-structured a couple of years ago. There's a guy on the mastering web
board who has done a fairly comprehensive test of different media
recently and the Mitsui error rates were far higher than any other
quality brand. This ties in with anecdotal reports of poorer quality
that I've heard. Older Mitsuis gave me the lowest C1 error rates that I
have ever seen but I've not dared to buy newer Mitsuis until someone
could confirm that the quality is still there - so far the only evidence
that I have seen suggests that T-Y or Verbatim are the ones to go for.

Cheers.

James.
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 8:40:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mannr@uwaterloo.ca wrote:

>
> Dear J:
>
> Thanks for all the suggestions. Finally, someone admits that this is a real
> problem, and I'm not imagining it. It just amazes me that this has not been
> solved yet. I guess like everything in the PC world, you should assume it
> does not work unless it can be proven otherwise!
>
> Richard

I think J makes it a little more complicated than it needs to be. If you
have a Plextor drive then Plextools takes care of things like offsets.
The Plextor Premium and some of the Plextor DVD writers can also be set
to burn longer pits if you want using the GigaRec feature.

I'd agree that you do need to start with the right tools for the job
though - not all CD writers and CD extraction software are created
equal.

Cheers.

James.
Anonymous
November 18, 2004 11:19:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"James Perrett" <James.R.Perrett@soc.soton.ac.uk> wrote in message

> I'm still a little worried about Mitsui discs since the company
> re-structured a couple of years ago. There's a guy on the mastering web
> board who has done a fairly comprehensive test of different media
> recently and the Mitsui error rates were far higher than any other
> quality brand. This ties in with anecdotal reports of poorer quality
> that I've heard. Older Mitsuis gave me the lowest C1 error rates that I
> have ever seen but I've not dared to buy newer Mitsuis until someone
> could confirm that the quality is still there - so far the only evidence
> that I have seen suggests that T-Y or Verbatim are the ones to go for.


I recall something on CDR-Info or wherever from the year dot that gave
Mitsui a high error count on some particular burner at some particular speed
( I think that was in the days when 8 was 'tops'). In which case I wouldn't
be too worried....


geoff
!