trying to "reverse engineer" sounds with great difficulty!

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Perhaps you pros could give me some advice and tips. I have been trying to
recreate some of the sound effects from an old tv soundtrack I have. I
can't just record directly because the original tracks are too noisy (and
noise filtering hasn't worked), plus I don't want the new sounds to be an
exact copy. The way I have been trying to go about my recreation is to
attempt to match the original frequencies of the sound with modern musical
instruments of a similar pattern. The original track is used as a "vocoder"
for the modern instrument, which tends to filter out everything but
"portions" of the original sound, depending on "how close" the modern
instrument notes are to the original. However, this very slow approach has
been hit and miss. The original tracks have so many harmonics that I can't
seem to mix the modern instruments properly to "match" it. This has been a
project I have been working on for quite some time and I am running out of
time. I've tried various other things... convolution, which didn't get me
anywhere, noise reduction applied somewhat like the above with the vocoder
(but still not getting too far), etc.etc. Someone once told me that it is
impossible to recreate an orchestra without the orchestra (in other words,
it is next to impossible to do all digitally), and I am starting to believe
that. So, how do I do this. I have an original tv sound that's very weak
on a tv soundtrack; I need to recreate this as closely as possible but I
don't have access to an orchestra or synth, but I do have an electric guitar
and some music samples. How in the world can I figure out or calculate the
notes and harmonics I need for the recreation? When I look at FFT graphs of
the original sound effect, there are just too many notes to count; when I
try to apply the aforementioned methods, I tend to make a small "dent" in
the graph and that's all with the sound very very flat. This has become
quite frustrating and I wish there was a better way. Perhaps there is which
is why I am asking.

Thanks, in advance, for any tips or advice.

Jayson Peterson

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Laurence Payne" <l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:nncgo0hr06vnq6regvm40srv5ge0au4ii7@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 00:28:13 GMT, "Jayson Peterson"
> <jaysonpet@erolsnot.net> wrote:
>
> > I have been trying to
> >recreate some of the sound effects from an old tv soundtrack I have. I
> >can't just record directly because the original tracks are too noisy (and
> >noise filtering hasn't worked), plus I don't want the new sounds to be an
> >exact copy. The way I have been trying to go about my recreation is to
> >attempt to match the original frequencies of the sound with modern
musical
> >instruments of a similar pattern.
>
> This is a musical score you're trying to recreate? Your question
> doesn't use the word "music" :-) Perhaps it should. This may be a
> job for a musician, not an engineer.

Well, I think that's the point of my question: sound redesign. The original
effects were, in fact, musical in nature but the instruments were modified
to produce the effect required. I am trying to recreate the effects by, in
essence, using a "fingerprint" to rescore modern instruments to produce the
desired effect. However, so far my efforts have not been successful which
is why I was looking for suggestions. I would have thought that at least
one digital application might suffice like vocoding, convolution, etc but so
far not. My next step, unless I get some suggestions here, is to use two
speakers to try and zero beat the frequencies of the original audio effect
and the instrument note I want to use. If I zero beat enough frequencies, I
may end up producing a similar sound to the original but this is going to
take a LOT of time.

Jayson


> CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
> "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"U-CDK_CHARLES\Charles" <"Charles Krug"@cdksystems.com> wrote in message
news:4h6id.6538$o52.820@trndny03...
> On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:46:26 GMT, Jayson Peterson
> <jaysonpet@erolsnot.net> wrote:
> >
> >> job for a musician, not an engineer.
> >
> > Well, I think that's the point of my question: sound redesign. The
original
> > effects were, in fact, musical in nature but the instruments were
modified
> > to produce the effect required. I am trying to recreate the effects by,
in
> > essence, using a "fingerprint" to rescore modern instruments to produce
the
> > desired effect. However, so far my efforts have not been successful
which
> > is why I was looking for suggestions. I would have thought that at
least
> > one digital application might suffice like vocoding, convolution, etc
but so
> > far not. My next step, unless I get some suggestions here, is to use
two
> > speakers to try and zero beat the frequencies of the original audio
effect
> > and the instrument note I want to use. If I zero beat enough
frequencies, I
> > may end up producing a similar sound to the original but this is going
to
> > take a LOT of time.
> >
>
> You might want to give us some specific examples. Lotsa things are much
> simpler than you might think.

From what I can tell, the sounds may in fact be something as simple as a
musical instrument "modulated" or combined. Unfortunately, the samples
would be pretty long but I'll try and see if I can compress them
sufficiently.

> Listen to the Rite of Spring, you might think, "How does he make an oboe
> sound like that?" when really it's a bassoon played up in the nosebleed
> range.
>
> What you're proposing doing is HORRIBLY complex, and probably not worth
> the effort.

Yes it is. I've actually been down the path many times. I could literally
zero beat every note and then "convolve" the note to sound like it did in
the original recording, but this takes many months to do properly. One
thing that does seem to help is if I have something generating harmonics
that are somewhat close to the original, then I can start making progress.

But the solution you seek may, in fact, be much simpler
> than any you've considered up until now.

That's what I'm hoping for.

Jayson

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Jayson Peterson" <jaysonpet@erolsnot.net> wrote in message news:<4Zbid.17487$5i5.9475@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> "U-CDK_CHARLES\Charles" <"Charles Krug"@cdksystems.com> wrote in message
> news:4h6id.6538$o52.820@trndny03...

>
> From what I can tell, the sounds may in fact be something as simple as a
> musical instrument "modulated" or combined.

There's a recurring event in a piece from Mike Gibbs _The Only Chrome
Waterfall Orchestra_ album that used to fascinate me for its sonic
complexity & unique timbral signature. Turns out to be a tenor sax & a
flugelhorn playing two notes a half-step apart at the extreme upper
end of their register. Ask an electronic sound designer to recreate
that, and they'd be tweaking knobs & parameters for months, trying to
replicate the intricate twisting mobius strip of harmonics that
results. Ask an arranger to recreate that and they'd reach for their
phonebook & have a couple Local 802 horn players nail it in 5 minutes.

>
> I could literally
> zero beat every note and then "convolve" the note to sound like it did in
> the original recording, but this takes many months to do properly. One
> thing that does seem to help is if I have something generating harmonics
> that are somewhat close to the original, then I can start making progress.
>

What is this verb "to zero beat" that you're using? I've never heard
that expression.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 4 Nov 2004 04:30:28 -0800, bross@berklee.net (Bob Ross) wrote:

>"Jayson Peterson" <jaysonpet@erolsnot.net> wrote in message news:<4Zbid.17487$5i5.9475@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
>> "U-CDK_CHARLES\Charles" <"Charles Krug"@cdksystems.com> wrote in message
>> news:4h6id.6538$o52.820@trndny03...

>> I could literally
>> zero beat every note and then "convolve" the note to sound like it did in
>> the original recording, but this takes many months to do properly. One
>> thing that does seem to help is if I have something generating harmonics
>> that are somewhat close to the original, then I can start making progress.
>>
>
>What is this verb "to zero beat" that you're using? I've never heard
>that expression.

I suppose it's an old amateur radio term, to tune an oscillator to
something like a WWV transmitter standard frequency. If you listen on
a receiver, as two similar-strength frequencies get within about 10 Hz
of each other, the background noise goes in and out at the difference
frequency, so it's easy to tune an oscillator to within a fraction of
a Hz of the other. Tuning a musical instrument to a frequency standard
(or a pitch on a recording as Jayson os apparently discussing) is done
in a similar way, changing the pitch of one so it matches the other
without any 'phasing' or 'chorusing.'
-----
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