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Which acoustic guitar pickup do buy?

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November 12, 2004 6:59:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I'm hoping a few of you have a non bias view on guitar pickups. I have
very little ability to compare them since you pretty much have to
install them in your guitar before you can test them out – so help me
if you can ☺

I need to install something with at least a little control or get some
other way of controlling volume at minimum. I want to install one in a
1978 Alvarez Yairi Super Abalone and another in my Martin HD28. I
finger pick a little hard, strum a little weak and play mostly folk
rock along the lines of James Taylor or Croce sounding mixes.

Budget isn't to much of a concern but I don't want to spend as much as
the guitar is worth but punching holes in my guitars is out of the
question (as far as pre amps in the side is concerned). I have seen
the K&K but from the pictures it looks a little cumbersome to have a
pre-amp sticking out next to your strings.

Thanks in advance guys

danny
Anonymous
November 12, 2004 10:27:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 11/12/04 3:59 PM, in article
30d25571.0411121559.4e01bf27@posting.google.com, "danny"
<palmtreedreamer@aol.com> wrote:

> I'm hoping a few of you have a non bias view on guitar pickups. I have
> very little ability to compare them since you pretty much have to
> install them in your guitar before you can test them out – so help me
> if you can ☺
>
> I need to install something with at least a little control or get some
> other way of controlling volume at minimum. I want to install one in a
> 1978 Alvarez Yairi Super Abalone and another in my Martin HD28. I
> finger pick a little hard, strum a little weak and play mostly folk
> rock along the lines of James Taylor or Croce sounding mixes.
>
> Budget isn't to much of a concern but I don't want to spend as much as
> the guitar is worth but punching holes in my guitars is out of the
> question (as far as pre amps in the side is concerned). I have seen
> the K&K but from the pictures it looks a little cumbersome to have a
> pre-amp sticking out next to your strings.
>
> Thanks in advance guys
>
> danny


Start here:

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptest.htm

--
Stephen Boyke
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 1:15:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I have an HD28 with an LR Bags (lb6) and run it through a Pendulum
Acoustic pre and tc chorus . If you add a condenser you'll get a
really great clear sound. You can find the Pendulums on Ebay for under
$300. They come with a cable with a volume control so you have control
in an instant...Also try Petillo strings - they are awesome for
picking, not strumming...

Good Luck,

John Muir
Related resources
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 4:53:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

danny wrote:

> I'm hoping a few of you have a non bias view on guitar pickups. I have
> very little ability to compare them since you pretty much have to
> install them in your guitar before you can test them out – so help me
> if you can ☺

> I need to install something with at least a little control or get some
> other way of controlling volume at minimum. I want to install one in a
> 1978 Alvarez Yairi Super Abalone and another in my Martin HD28. I
> finger pick a little hard, strum a little weak and play mostly folk
> rock along the lines of James Taylor or Croce sounding mixes.

> Budget isn't to much of a concern but I don't want to spend as much as
> the guitar is worth but punching holes in my guitars is out of the
> question (as far as pre amps in the side is concerned). I have seen
> the K&K but from the pictures it looks a little cumbersome to have a
> pre-amp sticking out next to your strings.

Post this query into rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic and/or search
Google's newsgroup archives for pickup discussion in rmmga.

http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en

--
ha
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 6:59:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

danny wrote:
> I'm hoping a few of you have a non bias view on guitar pickups. I have
> very little ability to compare them since you pretty much have to
> install them in your guitar before you can test them out – so help me
> if you can ☺
>
> I need to install something with at least a little control or get some
> other way of controlling volume at minimum. I want to install one in a
> 1978 Alvarez Yairi Super Abalone and another in my Martin HD28. I
> finger pick a little hard, strum a little weak and play mostly folk
> rock along the lines of James Taylor or Croce sounding mixes.
>
> Budget isn't to much of a concern but I don't want to spend as much as
> the guitar is worth but punching holes in my guitars is out of the
> question (as far as pre amps in the side is concerned). I have seen
> the K&K but from the pictures it looks a little cumbersome to have a
> pre-amp sticking out next to your strings.
>
> Thanks in advance guys
>
> danny

I like the neumann 184
if you havent the funds a behringer b-1 will be about 1/2 as good for
1/6th the price
George
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 11:50:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <30d25571.0411121559.4e01bf27@posting.google.com> palmtreedreamer@aol.com writes:

> I need to install something with at least a little control or get some
> other way of controlling volume at minimum. I want to install one in a
> 1978 Alvarez Yairi Super Abalone and another in my Martin HD28. I
> finger pick a little hard, strum a little weak and play mostly folk
> rock along the lines of James Taylor or Croce sounding mixes.

Why not experiment with a good quality miniature microphone mounted on
or in the guitar. Crown and Countryman are popular with guitarists.
You'll need a preamp for it, and that's your volume control.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
November 13, 2004 5:14:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

walkinay@thegrid.net (hank alrich) wrote in message news:<1gn5g8v.nn803v14ndidiN%walkinay@thegrid.net>...
> danny wrote:
>
> > I'm hoping a few of you have a non bias view on guitar pickups. I have
> > very little ability to compare them since you pretty much have to
> > install them in your guitar before you can test them out ? so help me
> > if you can ☺
>
> > I need to install something with at least a little control or get some
> > other way of controlling volume at minimum. I want to install one in a
> > 1978 Alvarez Yairi Super Abalone and another in my Martin HD28. I
> > finger pick a little hard, strum a little weak and play mostly folk
> > rock along the lines of James Taylor or Croce sounding mixes.
>
> > Budget isn't to much of a concern but I don't want to spend as much as
> > the guitar is worth but punching holes in my guitars is out of the
> > question (as far as pre amps in the side is concerned). I have seen
> > the K&K but from the pictures it looks a little cumbersome to have a
> > pre-amp sticking out next to your strings.
>
> Post this query into rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic and/or search
> Google's newsgroup archives for pickup discussion in rmmga.
>
> http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en

thanks for the lead. I will post there but I have to say I trust the
folks here quite a bit :-)
November 13, 2004 5:17:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

George Gleason <g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<jEfld.13617$7i4.11274@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> danny wrote:
> > I'm hoping a few of you have a non bias view on guitar pickups. I have
> > very little ability to compare them since you pretty much have to
> > install them in your guitar before you can test them out – so help me
> > if you can ☺
> >
> > I need to install something with at least a little control or get some
> > other way of controlling volume at minimum. I want to install one in a
> > 1978 Alvarez Yairi Super Abalone and another in my Martin HD28. I
> > finger pick a little hard, strum a little weak and play mostly folk
> > rock along the lines of James Taylor or Croce sounding mixes.
> >
> > Budget isn't to much of a concern but I don't want to spend as much as
> > the guitar is worth but punching holes in my guitars is out of the
> > question (as far as pre amps in the side is concerned). I have seen
> > the K&K but from the pictures it looks a little cumbersome to have a
> > pre-amp sticking out next to your strings.
> >
> > Thanks in advance guys
> >
> > danny
>
> I like the neumann 184
> if you havent the funds a behringer b-1 will be about 1/2 as good for
> 1/6th the price
> George

Though I agree with you on the mike choice, I can't see how I can
install a mike that size inside a guitar :-)
November 13, 2004 5:18:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Stephen Boyke <sdelsolray@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<BDBABF3A.23DC9%sdelsolray@comcast.net>...
> On 11/12/04 3:59 PM, in article
> 30d25571.0411121559.4e01bf27@posting.google.com, "danny"
> <palmtreedreamer@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm hoping a few of you have a non bias view on guitar pickups. I have
> > very little ability to compare them since you pretty much have to
> > install them in your guitar before you can test them out ? so help me
> > if you can ☺
> >
> > I need to install something with at least a little control or get some
> > other way of controlling volume at minimum. I want to install one in a
> > 1978 Alvarez Yairi Super Abalone and another in my Martin HD28. I
> > finger pick a little hard, strum a little weak and play mostly folk
> > rock along the lines of James Taylor or Croce sounding mixes.
> >
> > Budget isn't to much of a concern but I don't want to spend as much as
> > the guitar is worth but punching holes in my guitars is out of the
> > question (as far as pre amps in the side is concerned). I have seen
> > the K&K but from the pictures it looks a little cumbersome to have a
> > pre-amp sticking out next to your strings.
> >
> > Thanks in advance guys
> >
> > danny
>
>
> Start here:
>
> http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptest.htm

Now that is a cool site. thank you for the link
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 7:40:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>
>I have an HD28 with an LR Bags (lb6) and run it through a Pendulum
>Acoustic pre and tc chorus . If you add a condenser you'll get a
>really great clear sound. You can find the Pendulums on Ebay for under
>$300.

show me show me



T
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 11:01:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

danny <palmtreedreamer@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Thanks for the input. I'll look into those – those names are new to
>me. I am not sure what you mean buy adding a condenser but if you are
>writing about a condenser mike as opposed to a built in pickup, then
>that luxury isn't something I can use for live. I'd love to have the
>sound but the bother of it won't be worth it, though thanks since you
>are right about the sound.

Do you care what your guitar sounds like?

If so, honestly, it's worth the bother to get a mike and use it properly.

If you don't, well, get an Ovation. It won't sound very good, but it
won't be any trouble at all.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 11:22:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Why not experiment with a good quality miniature microphone mounted on
> or in the guitar. Crown and Countryman are popular with guitarists.
> You'll need a preamp for it, and that's your volume control.

Where do people ususally mount them? I've seen the ones mounted in the
soundhole pointing at the strings, is that what you're referring to?
Anonymous
November 13, 2004 11:22:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <L1uld.21095$6q2.11403@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> mark@particlesalad.com writes:

> > Why not experiment with a good quality miniature microphone mounted on
> > or in the guitar.

> Where do people ususally mount them? I've seen the ones mounted in the
> soundhole pointing at the strings, is that what you're referring to?

I've seen that configuration and it works OK for some guitars.
Sometimes they put them well inside the body pointing up at the bridge
(requires some clever rigging) or sticking them to the top with some
tape. That's what I said "experiement." Guitars are different, as are
our expectations as to what sound we want to come out the speakers.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 2:23:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Danny wrote:


>thanks for the lead. I will post there but I have to say I trust the
>folks here quite a bit :-)


Okay, we need to talk. <g>
November 14, 2004 11:03:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in message news:<cn6apo$bna$1@panix2.panix.com>...
> danny <palmtreedreamer@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >Thanks for the input. I'll look into those ? those names are new to
> >me. I am not sure what you mean buy adding a condenser but if you are
> >writing about a condenser mike as opposed to a built in pickup, then
> >that luxury isn't something I can use for live. I'd love to have the
> >sound but the bother of it won't be worth it, though thanks since you
> >are right about the sound.
>
> Do you care what your guitar sounds like?
>
> If so, honestly, it's worth the bother to get a mike and use it properly.
>
> If you don't, well, get an Ovation. It won't sound very good, but it
> won't be any trouble at all.
> --scott
Well you see Scott, the problem is that I agree with you 100% about
the sound but I have to move around a little, I play outside on or
near the beach quite often and wind is hard to avoid plus I tend to
feel claustrophobic with mikes in front of the guitar. I want the best
of both worlds but will sacrifice sound for comfort in this case.

As far as ovations, I gave mine to my baby bro 10 years ago or more
because I didn't really like it ☺

Point is not only well taken, it is agreed with-

Thanks

Danny Taddei
Anonymous
November 14, 2004 11:17:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Particle Salad" <mark@particlesalad.com> wrote in message
news:L1uld.21095$6q2.11403@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>
> > Why not experiment with a good quality miniature microphone mounted on
> > or in the guitar. Crown and Countryman are popular with guitarists.
> > You'll need a preamp for it, and that's your volume control.
>
> Where do people ususally mount them? I've seen the ones mounted in the
> soundhole pointing at the strings, is that what you're referring to?

I put mine on the brace under the fingerboard, directly under the high E
string, pointed toward the low strings. Attached with 3M strip-calk, a
sticky goo that doesn't dry out. I tried shock-mounting it with a piece of
Velcro, but discovered the thing sounded way better mounted with the goo. It
sounds great on my 00-18. I got the idea from Martin Carthy, who has one in
the identical place in his 000-18.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 9:36:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) laid this on me:

> danny <palmtreedreamer@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>Thanks for the input. I'll look into those – those names are new to
>>me. I am not sure what you mean buy adding a condenser but if you are
>>writing about a condenser mike as opposed to a built in pickup, then
>>that luxury isn't something I can use for live. I'd love to have the
>>sound but the bother of it won't be worth it, though thanks since you
>>are right about the sound.
>
> Do you care what your guitar sounds like?
>
> If so, honestly, it's worth the bother to get a mike and use it properly.
>
> If you don't, well, get an Ovation. It won't sound very good, but it
> won't be any trouble at all.
> --scott

It's not the mic in front of the guitar that is important to make this
work.
It's the guy in back of the board who will make or break this setup.
Even the most average SDC on acoustics sound great, about 1,000,000 better
than the best pickups, but unfortunately, it isn't always the best option. As
with many folks in our shoes, we need to be flexible to account for variances
in the situation.
If I walk in and the place is set up for acoustic music, and he knows
what he's doing, we set up mics and get tones. If the guy strolls in 15
minutes before showtime, looks at my banjo and says "hey, cool ukelele", we
plug in.
Unfortunately, we do get both.

Sean
--
There is an old saying that if a million monkeys
typed on a million keyboards for a million years,
eventually all the works of Shakespeare would be produced.
Now, thanks to Usenet, we know this is not true.

seans_at_efn.org
http://www.efn.org/~seans
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 12:59:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <Xns95A22EDCC28DCseanhoneybuckit@216.196.97.130> see@sigfor.email writes:

> It's not the mic in front of the guitar that is important to make this
> work.
> It's the guy in back of the board who will make or break this setup.

Nope, it's the guy in the back of the GUITAR that will make or break
the setup. If he's going to use a conventional mic on a conventional
stand, then he has to stand pretty much in one place, perhaps moving
around a bit to control the volume and tone much as a vocalist works a
microphone.

If he's going to clown around on stage while swinging his pick-holding
fist over the guitar strings and making some strumming sounds, then he
needs something else. This could be an electromagnetic pickup on the
strings, a mechanical (contact) pickup somewhere on the body of the
guitar, a microphone attached to the guitar that moves along with it,
or a combination of those. Then, and only then, will the guy in the
back of the board have something that he can control.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
November 15, 2004 6:40:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I have put a K&K Trinity system (a dual source system) in 2 of my
guitars (Santa Cruz Tony Rice and Martin D-18CW, Clarence White model)
and a K&K Western pick-up in a Martin D35. I did a lot of research and
found the K&K to be the best pickup for my needs, which is as natural
a sound a possible. I want it to sound like the guitar does
acoustically, only louder (who doesn't). The K&K sounds very good and
I felt beat out the LR Baggs Dual Source and anything Fishman makes,
but again this is based on my tastes. On the Santa Cruz I use a Raven
Labs pre and on the D-18CW I use the belt clip Pre that comes with the
K&K pick-up system. Both sound great, although I prefer the Raven Labs
as it is more flexible. K&K has a newer rack mount version of their
preamp that is more flexible than the beltclip version.

One of the things I like best about the K&K is that you do not have to
alter your guitar at all - no holes, etc.

Godd luck,
Tim T
November 16, 2004 2:19:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

tterral@home.com (Tim Terral) wrote in message news:<1b2cd062.0411151540.7be4dada@posting.google.com>...
> I have put a K&K Trinity system (a dual source system) in 2 of my
> guitars (Santa Cruz Tony Rice and Martin D-18CW, Clarence White model)
> and a K&K Western pick-up in a Martin D35. I did a lot of research and
> found the K&K to be the best pickup for my needs, which is as natural
> a sound a possible. I want it to sound like the guitar does
> acoustically, only louder (who doesn't). The K&K sounds very good and
> I felt beat out the LR Baggs Dual Source and anything Fishman makes,
> but again this is based on my tastes. On the Santa Cruz I use a Raven
> Labs pre and on the D-18CW I use the belt clip Pre that comes with the
> K&K pick-up system. Both sound great, although I prefer the Raven Labs
> as it is more flexible. K&K has a newer rack mount version of their
> preamp that is more flexible than the beltclip version.
>
> One of the things I like best about the K&K is that you do not have to
> alter your guitar at all - no holes, etc.
>
> Godd luck,
> Tim T

I went and played with a guitar that had a K&K set up today. There
were 3 pick ups inside under the bridge but I can't tell you want
model it is. I think I will put it in my martin hd28 to try it before
I do my other guitar.

I thought it sounded very good too. Thanks for the input - the guy at
buffalo brothers is going to install it for $175

Thanks

Danny Taddei
Anonymous
November 16, 2004 12:07:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

The Sunrise sounds very nice.


mondoslug1@aol.comwaht (Mondoslug1) wrote in message news:<20041113114022.22097.00000688@mb-m06.aol.com>...
> >
> >I have an HD28 with an LR Bags (lb6) and run it through a Pendulum
> >Acoustic pre and tc chorus . If you add a condenser you'll get a
> >really great clear sound. You can find the Pendulums on Ebay for under
> >$300.
>
> show me show me
>
>
>
> T
Anonymous
November 16, 2004 10:39:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1100310146k@trad>...
> In article <30d25571.0411121559.4e01bf27@posting.google.com> palmtreedreamer@aol.com writes:

> Why not experiment with a good quality miniature microphone mounted on
> or in the guitar. Crown and Countryman are popular with guitarists.
> You'll need a preamp for it, and that's your volume control.

I know that this approach has been popular over the last several years
(especially in tandem with another type of pickup), but I didn't have
much use for it. I had the "Greg Gualtieri" setup in my Gibson J-45:
an internal AKG pickup, plus a Sunrise, going through the Pendulum
SPS-1 preamp. This is a pretty top-line setup, and even after a lot of
experimentation, I never got a sound that I thought was better than a
good piezo pickup on its own.

Now, this has nothing to do with the quality of Greg's advice or
Pendulum equipment (both top-notch): I think it just comes down to the
fact that I don't like the sound of the *inside* of my guitar, I like
how it sounds on the outside. :-)

Seriously, though, I've switched to Highlander piezo pickups on all my
instuments, and I always get a good, strong, reasonably accurate
sound, without much of the quack that piezos are known for.

Obviously, YMMV (to the OP), but think about simpler setups, at least
in the beginning. You'll save money, you'll have less stuff to carry
with you, and you can always augment your sound with a good external
mike when that is necessary or convenient. With some of these
multi-source systems, you have no choice but to drag around a fancy
outboard preamp, even if you're just doing an open mike or sitting in
for a few tunes.

I'd look at under-saddle pickups from Highlander, Fishman and Baggs as
a good start. They'll be less than $200, and maybe $50 to install.

Cheers,
Dave (off to the local open mike)
Anonymous
November 16, 2004 11:42:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Gary Flanigan" <gary_flanigan@ce9.uscourts.gov> wrote in message
news:953629a1.0411160907.671f740f@posting.google.com...
> The Sunrise sounds very nice.

What he said. I went through a couple of dozen pickups before I came to the
Sunrise. I put it in my guitar around 15 years ago (can that be right???),
and it hasn't been out since.

And then I bought another one so that I could have a spare.

Dave O'Heare
oheareATmagmaDOTca
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 12:16:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound pickups?
What kind of numbers should I expect to see?
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 6:05:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cnec92$2nl$1@panix2.panix.com...
> Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound
> pickups?
> What kind of numbers should I expect to see?

In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the
7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low as
7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k
for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type
winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there, but
there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds.

Curious... why do you ask?

Neil Henderson
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 7:53:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 03:05:45 GMT, "Neil Henderson"
<neil.henderson@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM> wrote:

>"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
>news:cnec92$2nl$1@panix2.panix.com...
>> Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound
>> pickups?
>> What kind of numbers should I expect to see?
>
>In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the
>7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low as
>7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k
>for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type
>winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there, but
>there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds.

Just what numbers are those? I doubt they're inductance in Henrys,
but they might be DC resistances in ohms, and they could also be
self-resonant frequencies in hertz.
ISTR reading of 7,000 turns of (rather fine gauge) wire for a
pickup, and there's some moderate amount of iron inside the winding
(with of course a magnet on the back for "magnetic bias"), if that
helps calculate the inductance at all. And of course, increasing turns
increases resistance, inductance, and interwinding capacitance, and so
lowers the resonant frequency and high-end response (both below and
especially above the resonant frequency).
Okay, enough of my BS guessing, here are possible pointers to real
info: rec.music.makers.builders (some people there wind their own
pickups); http://www.stew-mac.com sells pickups, might have tech info
on them. Looking now, they even sell PICKUP KITS. Here's a link on
pickup winding, scroll to the bottom to see some "typical" specs:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Pickup...


>Curious... why do you ask?

My guess is he's got an electric guitar or two, he's taken out the
pickups and made measurements, and wonders if these are "typical."

>Neil Henderson
>

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 7:53:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Ben Bradley wrote:


> Just what numbers are those? I doubt they're inductance in Henrys,
> but they might be DC resistances in ohms, and they could also be
> self-resonant frequencies in hertz.


Ohms.
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 11:45:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Neil Henderson <neil.henderson@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM> wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
>news:cnec92$2nl$1@panix2.panix.com...
>> Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound
>> pickups?
>> What kind of numbers should I expect to see?
>
>In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the
>7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low as
>7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k
>for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type
>winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there, but
>there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds.

Those sound like impedances and not inductances. I'm not going to ask the
impedance because I'm not sure you can model a pickup as being a perfect
current source and get anything much useful out of it.

>Curious... why do you ask?

I'm trying to get a sense of what actually happens at the instrument-preamp
interface.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 1:07:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <43c810f9.0411161939.760bf461@posting.google.com> davebro@sbcglobal.net writes:

> Seriously, though, I've switched to Highlander piezo pickups on all my
> instuments, and I always get a good, strong, reasonably accurate
> sound, without much of the quack that piezos are known for.

I heard those at NAMM last year or two and thought they sounded pretty
good in the situation (playing thorugh speakers-on-sticks in a noisy
exhibit hall, across from the woodworking power tools booth) but that
they still sounded a little "plasticky." Not nearly as much as some
piezo pickups, and certainly a workable sound, but not the true
acoustic sound of the guitar.

I also played with the Taylor built-in system with the Neve-designed
preamp/EQ external box, and listening on headphones (the only thing
available) I wasn't able to get anything that sounded close to an
acoustic guitar tone from it. I figured that with Taylor's experience
with acoustic guitars and their amplification, they should have done
it right and maybe I just hadn't found the right settings. But at AES
this year, they had a little booth (rather than a whole room like they
have at NAMM) and I talked with one of the engineers about it, asking
if they were going for an acoustic-electric sound or if I just wasn't
doing it right. He told me "It's a different sound, and it's very
flexible" - something with which I could agree. You can get a wide
range of tonality, but nothing that makes the pickups and electronics
disappear.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 1:43:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> I went and played with a guitar that had a K&K set up today. There
> were 3 pick ups inside under the bridge but I can't tell you want
> model it is. I think I will put it in my martin hd28 to try it before
> I do my other guitar.
>
> I thought it sounded very good too. Thanks for the input - the guy at
> buffalo brothers is going to install it for $175
>
> Thanks
>
> Danny Taddei


That was probaly the Pure Western you played, since the price of the
Trinity was $285.00 when I bought mine a few years back. The
difference will be the Trinity comes with the Pure Western Pick-up,
internal microphone and preamp, while the Pure Western does not come
with the microphone or the preamp. Interestingly enough, I have read
numerous times that the pick-up is hot enough without a preamp. That
being said, I would still recommend a preamp. Also, K&K have 2 sizes
of the Pure Western pick-up elements, based on the size of one's
bridge plate. Most people use the regular size which has a hotter
output. I have both and the smaller pick-up elements (3) are not as
hot, therefore I would recommend going with the standard size if
possible.

Tim T
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 8:47:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cnfkle$c5i$1@panix2.panix.com...
> Neil Henderson <neil.henderson@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM> wrote:
> >"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
> >news:cnec92$2nl$1@panix2.panix.com...
> >> Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound
> >> pickups?
> >> What kind of numbers should I expect to see?
> >
> >In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the
> >7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low
as
> >7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to
16k
> >for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type
> >winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there,
but
> >there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds.
>
> Those sound like impedances and not inductances. I'm not going to ask the
> impedance because I'm not sure you can model a pickup as being a perfect
> current source and get anything much useful out of it.
>
> >Curious... why do you ask?
>
> I'm trying to get a sense of what actually happens at the
instrument-preamp
> interface.

From the Bill Lawrence site, the inductance of a Strat pickup is about 2.3H,
a Gibson PAF is about 4.4H and some of the hot "distortion" pickups are
about 8H or higher. Combine that with the resistances quoted above, cable
capacitance and Miller capacitance from the input tube, and you get an
interesting interface indeed.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 8:47:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Paul Stamler <pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>From the Bill Lawrence site, the inductance of a Strat pickup is about 2.3H,
>a Gibson PAF is about 4.4H and some of the hot "distortion" pickups are
>about 8H or higher. Combine that with the resistances quoted above, cable
>capacitance and Miller capacitance from the input tube, and you get an
>interesting interface indeed.

Wow. That explains a lot. I was expecting something in the 1H or less
region. That's scary. I gotta do the math, but that's very interesting.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
November 17, 2004 11:12:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

tterral@home.com (Tim Terral) wrote in message news:<1b2cd062.0411171043.3583e351@posting.google.com>...
> > I went and played with a guitar that had a K&K set up today. There
> > were 3 pick ups inside under the bridge but I can't tell you want
> > model it is. I think I will put it in my martin hd28 to try it before
> > I do my other guitar.
> >
> > I thought it sounded very good too. Thanks for the input - the guy at
> > buffalo brothers is going to install it for $175
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Danny Taddei
>
>
> That was probaly the Pure Western you played, since the price of the
> Trinity was $285.00 when I bought mine a few years back. The
> difference will be the Trinity comes with the Pure Western Pick-up,
> internal microphone and preamp, while the Pure Western does not come
> with the microphone or the preamp. Interestingly enough, I have read
> numerous times that the pick-up is hot enough without a preamp. That
> being said, I would still recommend a preamp. Also, K&K have 2 sizes
> of the Pure Western pick-up elements, based on the size of one's
> bridge plate. Most people use the regular size which has a hotter
> output. I have both and the smaller pick-up elements (3) are not as
> hot, therefore I would recommend going with the standard size if
> possible.
>
> Tim T

I'm glad you told me that. I would rather have an active system. I
think the standard size will fit on the HD28. I was in there the other
day with my guitar but I had to leave it so I opted to bring it back.
Looks like I made a good move:-) I'll let you know how it turns out
after I get it in there.

Thanks again
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 11:15:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I would seriously consider a B-Band product, such as the A2.2 system. Very
nice.

George Reiswig
Song of the River Music
Anonymous
November 18, 2004 12:54:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:<znr1100694692k@trad>...

> He told me "It's a different sound, and it's very
> flexible" - something with which I could agree. You can get a wide
> range of tonality, but nothing that makes the pickups and electronics
> disappear.

Well, that's the thing. I've never heard a pickup-amplified acoustic
guitar that sounds like an acoustic guitar played right in front of
you in a good sounding room. I've heard plenty of people get good,
effective live sound with their acoustic (without external mikes), but
the good sound always had more to do with power, clarity and dynamics
(and not f***ing up the sound with dumb things like chorus), rather
than an accurate reproduction of the guitar's sound.

Dave
Anonymous
November 18, 2004 11:46:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Seymour's got a nice chart that you might find helpful:
http://www.seymourduncan.com/website/tonechart.shtml

I apologise for posting through google, but I don't have access to
newsgroup servers any more.

Best wishes,

Evangelos


Evangelos T. Himonides
DipMus, BSc (1st Class Hons), MA
doctoral Student, University of London (IoE)

Research Assistant
University of York
Department of Electronics
Room 839

Music Department
Institute of Education
University of London
20, Bedford Way
London WC1H 0AL
Tel. +44 207 6126599
Fax. +44 207 6126741
Anonymous
November 19, 2004 6:45:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I play live and record regularly with a guitarist with a
Pick-Up-The-World in his Martin, and it's far and away the most natural
acoustic guitar sound via a pickup I've ever dealt with.


D

--
remove 555 from address to reply
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 11:34:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> I'm trying to get a sense of what actually happens at the instrument-preamp
> interface.
> --scott

Guitar pickups are just like guitars, many factors will influence the
way they interact with the preamp etc.

The windings on vintage pickups are hand wound (irregular) and loosely
packed, some pickups had wax or lacquer to reduce microphonics, magnet
types vary from alnico II or V etc to ceramic, the cores vary.
Being high impedance the pickups will be affected by the volume pot's
dc resistance (250k or 500k) and the cable's capacitance and
irregularity in shielding will cause losses/distortions etc.
they are technically not ideal from a design standpoint, but the
manufacturers that have tried to "correct" these faults with low
impedance tightly wound buffered pickups have never really changed
what most guitarists will look for in a pickup.

A pickup is to be regarded as a musical instrument, for sanity's sake.

Some guitar amps have a 100k resistor to ground that may pass through
a decoupling cap before going into the grid, others have a 1 meg to
ground and then a series 68K resistor to the grid.

there are a lot of factors.

The best all around input for a guitar is a high (2 meg and up)
impedance input.
this said some guitarists like to play with the volume on 9 (reduces
high frequency resonant peak between pickup and capacitance of cable?)
and some like long cords (cap. to ground via cable) some like low
impedance transistor inputs...

every guitar is different.
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 11:35:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> I'm trying to get a sense of what actually happens at the instrument-preamp
> interface.
> --scott

Guitar pickups are just like guitars, many factors will influence the
way they interact with the preamp etc.

The windings on vintage pickups are hand wound (irregular) and loosely
packed, some pickups had wax or lacquer to reduce microphonics, magnet
types vary from alnico II or V etc to ceramic, the cores vary.
Being high impedance the pickups will be affected by the volume pot's
dc resistance (250k or 500k) and the cable's capacitance and
irregularity in shielding will cause losses/distortions etc.
they are technically not ideal from a design standpoint, but the
manufacturers that have tried to "correct" these faults with low
impedance tightly wound buffered pickups have never really changed
what most guitarists will look for in a pickup.

A pickup is to be regarded as a musical instrument, for sanity's sake.

Some guitar amps have a 100k resistor to ground that may pass through
a decoupling cap before going into the grid, others have a 1 meg to
ground and then a series 68K resistor to the grid.

there are a lot of factors.

The best all around input for a guitar is a high (2 meg and up)
impedance input.
this said some guitarists like to play with the volume on 9 (reduces
high frequency resonant peak between pickup and capacitance of cable?)
and some like long cords (cap. to ground via cable) some like low
impedance transistor inputs...

every guitar is different.
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 11:37:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> I'm trying to get a sense of what actually happens at the instrument-preamp
> interface.
> --scott

Guitar pickups are just like guitars, many factors will influence the
way they interact with the preamp etc.

The windings on vintage pickups are hand wound (irregular) and loosely
packed, some pickups had wax or lacquer to reduce microphonics, magnet
types vary from alnico II or V etc to ceramic, the cores vary.
Being high impedance the pickups will be affected by the volume pot's
dc resistance (250k or 500k) and the cable's capacitance and
irregularity in shielding will cause losses/distortions etc.
they are technically not ideal from a design standpoint, but the
manufacturers that have tried to "correct" these faults with low
impedance tightly wound buffered pickups have never really changed
what most guitarists will look for in a pickup.

A pickup is to be regarded as a musical instrument, for sanity's sake.

Some guitar amps have a 100k resistor to ground that may pass through
a decoupling cap before going into the grid, others have a 1 meg to
ground and then a series 68K resistor to the grid.

there are a lot of factors.

The best all around input for a guitar is a high (2 meg and up)
impedance input.
this said some guitarists like to play with the volume on 9 (reduces
high frequency resonant peak between pickup and capacitance of cable?)
and some like long cords (cap. to ground via cable) some like low
impedance transistor inputs...

every guitar is different.
Anonymous
November 27, 2004 6:32:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

danny wrote:

> what do you think is the best or closest
> to real sound you have heard?

An old Bill Lawrence that I bought at a music store bankruptcy auction.
It's rather microphonic, and maybe that's why it sounds so much like a
guitar. But it did startle me with its better-than-anticipated
performance.

--
ha
Anonymous
November 27, 2004 7:22:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< An old Bill Lawrence that I bought at a music store bankruptcy auction.
It's rather microphonic, and maybe that's why it sounds so much like a
guitar. But it did startle me with its better-than-anticipated
performance. >>



I've always been amazed that most single coil magnetic sound hole pickups sound
much more natural to me than most internal piezo transducers.

Scott Fraser
Anonymous
November 27, 2004 9:38:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

ScotFraser wrote:

> << An old Bill Lawrence that I bought at a music store bankruptcy auction.
> It's rather microphonic, and maybe that's why it sounds so much like a
> guitar. But it did startle me with its better-than-anticipated
> performance. >>



> I've always been amazed that most single coil magnetic sound hole pickups
> sound much more natural to me than most internal piezo transducers.

Of course, the soundhole of the McCollum is too large to hold the
Lawrence. I'm intending to stick it semi-permanently into the J-50.

We can put men on the moon, and still not be able to build a decently
accurate piezo pickup. <g>

--
ha
November 28, 2004 9:31:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1gnwf95.1i6jybv1x28jtyN%walkinay@thegrid.net>, hank alrich
<walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote:

> danny wrote:
>
> > what do you think is the best or closest
> > to real sound you have heard?
>
> An old Bill Lawrence that I bought at a music store bankruptcy auction.
> It's rather microphonic, and maybe that's why it sounds so much like a
> guitar. But it did startle me with its better-than-anticipated
> performance.
>
> --
> ha


Rupert Neve just designed one for some Taylor guitar models. Bet it
sounds damn good.

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_taylor_guitarsrupert_nev...




David Correia
Celebration Sound
Warren, Rhode Island

CelebrationSound@aol.com
www.CelebrationSound.com
Anonymous
November 28, 2004 9:36:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< Of course, the soundhole of the McCollum is too large to hold the
Lawrence. >>

Duct tape!

<<I'm intending to stick it semi-permanently into the J-50.>>

Then you'd have an almost J-160.

<<We can put men on the moon, and still not be able to build a decently
accurate piezo pickup. <g>
>>



Well, that's cuz it was POSSIBLE to put men on the moon. Accurate piezo pickups
are a whole other thing.

Scott Fraser
Anonymous
November 28, 2004 10:54:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"david" <ihate@spamo.com> wrote in message
news:281120040131399354%ihate@spamo.com...
> In article <1gnwf95.1i6jybv1x28jtyN%walkinay@thegrid.net>, hank alrich
> <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote:
>
> > danny wrote:
> >
> > > what do you think is the best or closest
> > > to real sound you have heard?
> >
> > An old Bill Lawrence that I bought at a music store bankruptcy auction.
> > It's rather microphonic, and maybe that's why it sounds so much like a
> > guitar. But it did startle me with its better-than-anticipated
> > performance.
> >
> > --
> > ha
>
>
> Rupert Neve just designed one for some Taylor guitar models. Bet it
> sounds damn good.
>
> http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_taylor_guitarsrupert_nev...
>
>
>
>
> David Correia
> Celebration Sound
> Warren, Rhode Island
>
> CelebrationSound@aol.com
> www.CelebrationSound.com


it's okay.
Anonymous
November 28, 2004 8:07:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

ScotFraser wrote:

> << Of course, the soundhole of the McCollum is too large to hold the
> Lawrence. >>

> Duct tape!

I'm not famous enough to get away with that.

> <<I'm intending to stick it semi-permanently into the J-50.>>

> Then you'd have an almost J-160.

Never played a J160 that came anywhere near the acoustic sound of this
J-50, which admittedly has been massaged by Lance McC.

> <<We can put men on the moon, and still not be able to build a decently
> accurate piezo pickup. <g>

> Well, that's cuz it was POSSIBLE to put men on the moon. Accurate piezo
> pickups are a whole other thing.

Maybe the Russians could do it.

--
ha
Anonymous
November 28, 2004 8:15:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

david wrote:

> Rupert Neve just designed one for some Taylor guitar models. Bet it
> sounds damn good.

> http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_taylor_guitarsrupert_nev...

That that rig in advanced prototype, all properly packaged, at McQ's
last year. Looked interesting, but so far I've not heard anybody say it
sounds like an acoustic guitar, naturally.

The problem may actually be technically insurmountable, trying to get
via direct mechanical interface that which we often prefer to perceive
through air. (Maybe this is something for Joe Cocker to look into.)

--
ha
Anonymous
November 28, 2004 8:15:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1gnyew8.kp8cdywu4520N%walkinay@thegrid.net> walkinay@thegrid.net writes:

> > http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_taylor_guitarsrupert_nev...

I tried taking that tutorial but didn't think I'd live long enough for
it to load.

> That that rig in advanced prototype, all properly packaged, at McQ's
> last year. Looked interesting, but so far I've not heard anybody say it
> sounds like an acoustic guitar, naturally.

I played with it for a while at NAMM last Summer and couldn't get it
to sound like anything but an acoustic guitar with a pickup. That was
on headphones, but still kind of disappointing considering how much
effort Taylor has put into guitars that, when amplified, still sound
like guitars. But then I don't usually record the kind of music that
people who play Taylor guitar play (showing some bias here, I know)
but whenever I've heard someone play a Taylor I've often thought
they'd sound better with some other guitar.

At the AES show this year, I stopped by the Taylor/Neve booth and told
the guy there what I thought of the amplified sound. He said he didn't
have a problem with that - it was a guitar with a pickup. (which is
how I described the sound)


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
November 29, 2004 10:40:22 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< Never played a J160 that came anywhere near the acoustic sound of this
J-50, which admittedly has been massaged by Lance McC.
>>



I was thinking of the built-in pickup aspect.

Scott Fraser
!