Japanese or American car?

Retorical question, because so many of you are idiots. Here's the question: Which is better to buy, a Toyota designed in Japan and built in the U.S., or a GM car designed in the U.S. and built in Mexico. Assume that the quality is nearly equal, because being idiots you don't realize that these days that's usually the case!

1.) I'm a mechanical designer in the U.S., I'm not getting a job in Japan.
2.) White collar workers contribute more to the U.S. economy than blue collar workers.
3.) Some of those parts on the Mexican built GM car were built in the U.S. General Motors workers get paid far more than Toyota workers when you consider benifits.
4.) Good jobs in Mexico are a major factor in reducing the influx of imagrants, who compete with our poor for the worst jobs.
5.) Reread #1, jobs for mechanical designers in the automotive market are extremely hard to come by, they require advanced degrees and/or lots of experience, there ARE no entry level jobs, due to cutbacks.

What goes around comes around, even with GM building so many cars in Mexico they contribute more jobs to the U.S. economy than any japanese carmaker, and better paying jobs at that! Eventually it has to reciprocate: If I'm broke I'm not buying your company's product or service. Put that on a larger scale and eventually people in your company will end up in dire straights.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

Well, Toyota and Nissan both designed, engineered, and built their large trucks, the Nissan Titan and Toyota Tundra, in America. But, I'm pretty sure the big 3 US makers build all their trucks in America as well, although some may do it in Mexico.

Japanese automakers are more and more starting to do that, because doing it in America lets them cater more to the tastes and needs of Americans, as they do differ from the tastes and needs of Japanese.

Also, the quality of American and Japanese cars is not equal. It's unfortunate to say, but Japanese autos are usually superior in quality to equivalent American cars. This is gotten from a report I read by Consumer Reports that questioned thousands of car owners on the amount of problems they had with their vehicles. Toyota was the best of the non-luxury makers. Chrysler was the worst (excluding the Korean pieces of crap).

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<font color=blue> "Trying is the first step towards failure." </font color=blue>

Buy products made at home has been the most typical thing said since WWII.

However I don't think it applies anymore. The economic trade between all peaceful nations needs to be kept balanced so buying OFF SHORE products is no longer effecting ON SHORE or home built economies.

However if you need a new part for your car the CHEVY or GM car or FORD vehicle is going to be off the shelf and 50% or more less in replacement cost.

Not a big deal if money is not a problem for you but it is if your stuck at a gas station some place in Colorado and the head mechanics name is Biff and the local dinner has a buck tooth chef who has not taken a bath in 2 weeks and the girl serving the food only understands orders if you speeel them out very slowly.

Could be a long stay in the middle of nowhere waiting for an electronic ignition made in Japan.

*Summation*;
KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID <--- that goes a long way in preventing migraines.

Barton 3200+ 400MHz
A7N8X Deluxe
Air Cooled 45C
2x512 Corsair DDR 400 PC3200
GeForce FX5900
Two Maxtor 40Gig 8MB cach 7200rpm
SONY RW 52x/24x/52x
SONY DVD 16x/40x

The new Malibu rocks, especially the MAXX edition it's a whole new car compared to the crappy previous versions IMO.

I got to get in one at an Auto Show. Was amazed at what it had become. Chevrolet has become leaps better this year.

--
<i>Ede</i>
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.php" target="_new"><font color=blue><b>More updates and added sites as over <font color=red>62</font color=red> no-lifers have their pics up on THGC's Photo Album! </b></font color=blue></A> <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 06/16/04 07:31 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

Hey, I'm a domestic driver. The two cars I've ever owned are domestic. I hope that's all I ever drive. But a couple of things you should realize are that some people's experiences with various brands are a huge factor in their decision-making, and that the world doesn't revolve around Crashman, his job situation, and his ego.

My wife and her family have had pretty much nothing but bad experiences with domestics. Now, she drives a Civic, her mom an Accord, and her dad has a Toyota truck that must have a quarter of a million miles on it, and they all just run, and run, and run (he has a Chevy 1500, too). Their decision-making was influenced by years of bad experiences with several domestic brands, so they switched. Now, it's up to the domestic brands to give them a reason to switch BACK. "Assume the quality is <i>nearly</i> equal"??? Well, to them, nearly equal isn't good enough.

What happens when folks' cars keep breaking down? Costs them time and money, right? Hey, I'm sure plenty of people with foreign cars wish some things were better for domestic car designers and other workers, but here's something that may surprise you: sometimes people have to put their own financial situations before yours.

I don't know how many times you've tried to blame all the rest of us for your job situation, Crashman, but maybe it's time to find an alternate career path. Or hey, get a job with Honda here in the US. Great way to try and get folks to see things your way, btw....call em idiots in two out of your first three sentences. Nice.

OK, I read #1-5, and re-read #1, per your request. Should that influence my in-laws' decision? Or my neighbor's? They've never heard of you. Oh, and if <i>they</i> were broke because their domestics kept failing, then <i>they're</i> not going to buy the domestic company's products any more. My next-door neighbor is an engineer for Honda at their new plant in Lincoln, AL, just down I-20. Think they build the Odyssey, and soon the Pilot. (I <i>think</i> ). Gets a nice discount, too. What do you think she's gonna drive?

But hey, I'm a domestic guy so far.

<font color=blue>War</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Eagle</font color=orange>
"I am not a role model." - Charles Barkley
{FTM}

Saw 2 of those new Dodge Magnums in the last week. Man, those may fall under the ugly "station wagon" label, but darn, they actually catch my interest.

I've had 2 Fords. Current one is just about to hit 70K. It developed a problem with an axle at about 17k; both were replaced under warranty and I haven't had any problems since.

Domestics have definitely gotten better in recent years, but for some folks, it's too late. Kinda like switching motherboard/vidcard/etc components because of bad experiences until you have a good enough reason to go back.

<font color=blue>War</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Eagle</font color=orange>
"I am not a role model." - Charles Barkley
{FTM}

Nearly equal is all we can get, many cars are so reliable now companies simply can't do much to improve them, and what little they could do would price those cars out of the market. Hmm, chance of 1 part breaking per year under warranty versus paying 2x as much for a car, the problem is that there aren't enough problems...to make it a problem for me. Some people putting their financial situations before mine could end up costing them their own job. Like I said, reciprocating effect, when people can't afford to buy your product because they're out of work, you might just end up out of work yourself. And people don't realize that sometimes, but most simply don't care. Apathy. Intentionaly ignorant. Idiots.

I'll look into the Honda plant in Lincoln, thanks.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

BTW, electricity isn't as cheap as you think, $200 in gasoline would probably be around $100 in electricity on the highway, or $50 of electricity around town (gasoline engines are more wastefull in city driving).

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

I had forgotten about the Magnum / 300C. Both are FINE cars, but a little too much for me. Yeah, I could afford one, but the Magnum with the HEMI runs about $30K, and it wouldn't be any fun to get one without the HEMI. I mean 340 HP? SWEEET!!!

<font color=blue>GO CUBS GO!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>GO CUBS GO!</font color=red>

I'd rather be at Wrigley Field!

<font color=red>{</font color=red><font color=blue>FPS</font color=blue><font color=red>}</font color=red>

Oh, just remembered <A HREF="http://www.hmmausa.com" target="_new">Hyundai</A> and <A HREF="http://www.toyota.com/alabama" target="_new">Toyota Motor Manufacturing</A>are the other ones we got.

<font color=blue>War</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Eagle</font color=orange>
"I am not a role model." - Charles Barkley
{FTM}

You have to pay attention to crap cars because people buy crap cars, and get jaded from the experience.

Not to bash dhlucke on his purchase, as I think Focuses have gotten better since they were first introduced, but the 2000 model year has had some 15 recalls since it was brought to market. 15! That, to me, is completely unacceptable. It is good that Ford will fix the problems inherent to their vehicles, but for them to put out a car that isn't at all close to being finished as to require so much post-production work just tells me that Ford is not in the business of making reliable vehicles. I would frankly be pissed to high hell to have to bring my car to the dealer 15 times to have problems with it fixed.

My friend's uncle had a Dodge Ram. Before 100,000 miles it had gone through 2 engines and 3 transmissions. He said he will never buy a Dodge again because of it, and will buy a Tundra when he buys a new vehicle. But, he also owns a Toyota Camry and a Toyota pickup, both have run great for him.

Same friend's mother had a Chevy Malibu. It had brake, transmission, and engine problems since she had it. She bought a Dodge Durango, which had problems. She then actually bought a used supercharged Nissan Frontier, which needed the supercharger replaced, then bought a new Jeep Cherokee I think. Not sure how that has faired for her.

I, on the other hand, have pretty much only had Toyotas and have had nothing but good things to say about them. I have a 1993 pickup, built in California, with 160,000 miles on it that runs awesome. Only needed a new clutch at ~120,000 miles. I have a 2000 Toyota Tundra, built in Illinios, that has 60,000 miles that also runs great that has had no problems yet. My brother has a 2003 Toyota Matrix that has some 35,000 miles on it and again, not a single problem. I did have a Nissan Maxima that had transmission problems after ~120,000 miles and needed a couple replacements (due to getting a used junkyard transmission, which was a big mistake), but after selling it to a friend he has had it for a long time now with no problems.

My mother has a 2000 Toyota Camry Solara, which has also ran perfectly for her.

So, I just don't see why I should put myself out and feel ripped off by American car makers for a product that I don't like and don't want and only hear bad stories about in comparison to other choices out there, just to ensure some more people who I don't know have jobs. I really do think it sucks that you and RC are having trouble finding work, but I'm sorry, that's not my problem and I am not going to make decisions I don't want to make just to try and feel better about your situation.

When American makers get their act together and I feel can actually compete (GM I think is coming close) with the Japanese in terms of reliability, then I might think about getting an American car. Until then, I will make my autmobile purchase decisions based on what benefits me rather than what MAY benefit you.

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<font color=blue> "Trying is the first step towards failure." </font color=blue>

I guess we shouldn't continue participating in this thread since you think we're idiots.

WTF?

<font color=blue>________________________</font color=blue>
<font color=red>You are all going to go to Hell!

I've seen running electronic valve trains on GM engines. Very few parts. Controlled by computer & can be changed on the fly or under load. It's out there.. The demonstration I saw they were playing with a 350 V8 with the electronic heads on it. You could see the change on the dyno as they changed the valve timing while putting different loads on them. The cool thing, the guy doing the dog & pony show said & it'll even play music!! He put a few keystrokes on the keyboard & the individual vales opened to let out the compression & played Shave & A Hair Cut, Two Bits at 3500 RPMs!!!!



Dazzle them with Brilliance, or Baffle them with BS!
<font color=red>{FMCD}</font color=red>

Then you should get a stereo system for your car. I've got one. Works great.

<font color=blue>War</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Eagle</font color=orange>
"I am not a role model." - Charles Barkley
{FTM}

I'd say part of the problem with quality is that the automotive unions will not allow jobs to be replaced by automation, which often provides better tolerances. I've seen this first hand at the Ford plant where my brother is a manager. The worker will have to get in a convoluted position to get a bolt on, which could have been accomplished much easier with a robot.

When you build a plant in Mexico, you don't have a strong union to limit your automation. Same deal in Japan. BTW, I'm not anti-union, just anti-inefficiency.

The engine->generator->motor->wheels concept is actually less efficient on the highway than staight engine->wheels. Using a turbine has been tried a few times, but the 2000 degree exhaust messes up the paint job. The most efficient system is battery->motor->wheels (Charge batteries at night) for trips <100km(60 miles) and use an APU (20~30KW gas/diesel generator) on a trailer for long trips.

AVT Supermotor 35KW (46.6HP)
diameter 30cm (12 in)
length 25cm (10 in)
weight 11Kg (24 lbs)
efficiency 92%


The Pen is mightier than the Sword, but the Sword is better if you need back up.

That's not very nice.

<font color=blue>War</font color=blue> <font color=orange>Eagle</font color=orange>
"I am not a role model." - Charles Barkley
{FTM}

Yes, an infinate cylinder would help! lol

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

LOL! i love you crash, but i don't trust you.... i mean if i was there with you, sure, but whats to say you won't screw me?

you know what i mean? dood, i'm all for it if i know no one will screw me. like some kind of insurance or something.

</font color=red><b><font color=orange>my sys:
mobo: Abit AN7 @ 442 FSB
CPU: AXPm 2600+ @ 4100+
ram: corsair xms @ 1:1 running 2.5-3-3-6
HDD: two raptors on raid 0

I don't believe any electric motor has 1 efficiency. Rather, efficiency is more likely continously variable depending on load. When I say I don't think the larger electric motors would be as efficient, I'm speaking of a low-load condition used for normal cruizing, as opposed to a peak load situation with acceleration.

Batteries aren't 100% efficient, they also give up heat during the charging and discharging processes. And they're large/heavy/expensive, producing large amounts of toxic scrap at end-of-life. Most power plants use coal turbines, lose a bunch of power over the grid, and give you maybe 50% of the power from that coal by the time the power reaches you. If you eliminate the loss of the grid and batteries, you come up with a lighter vehicle that refuels quicky. Of course you'd still want a couple batteries as a buffer, rather than dozens of them to store all the energy.

I believe it was Subaru who once uses a turbine to recapture heat energy from a standard engine exhaust, I wonder how large such a multistage turbine generator would have to be to exhaust relatively cool gases.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

"infinite cylinder" LMAO

a while ago i had this idea where there would be a cylinder the shape of a donut with a piston in it. of course the piston would also have to look like a piece of that donut. the problem hit me when i thought about high speeds. the faster it would go the less efficient it would be... so scratch that idea, i did.


i also thought about a sphere combustion chamber. it would be sort of like an interlaced ball with hydraulics attached to the 12 individual sections of it. think about a ball that would have a thick skin that would be made of hexagon looking sections. you know how the biscuit joint works? well, same idea. each section would have lips which would fit inside the section next to it. the problem with that came once i realized how violent it would be and hard to control. i had the intake and exhaust thought up too.

then i thought about another type of engine i never came up with a name for. the "piston" would rock back and forth instead of going up and down. this would make a very torquey engine too, but it would have a hell of hard time revving up.... i have gone through so many of these i can't even remember all of them anymore.

so far i have found a way to eliminate the transmission and cylinder head, replacing them with much lighter more efficient versions. i have been trying to find a way to harness the energy lost at the TDC and BDC for about tow and a half years now... nothing yet

</font color=red><b><font color=orange>my sys:
mobo: Abit AN7 @ 442 FSB
CPU: AXPm 2600+ @ 4100+
ram: corsair xms @ 1:1 running 2.5-3-3-6
HDD: two raptors on raid 0

"I'll show you my plans for a revolutionary new personal vehicle!"

oh yeah? mind sharing a few ingredients? maybe some features?

</font color=red><b><font color=orange>my sys:
mobo: Abit AN7 @ 442 FSB
CPU: AXPm 2600+ @ 4100+
ram: corsair xms @ 1:1 running 2.5-3-3-6
HDD: two raptors on raid 0

You know, I was thinking about your statements about how white collar jobs are better for the economy, so buying American would be better in the long run. Well, I think you're wrong, and this is why.

The reason I think this is because X amount of engineers could design a car, but increased demand means Y more blue collar workers are needed, while no more engineers are.

Let's say you have Ford. They have 50 engineers working on their new sedan. Now, no matter how many of these cars they sell, they don't need more than 50 engineers to design this car. If they sell 100,000 of them, they may need 1000 blue collar workers to build them, and 50 engineers. But, let's say they have the demand to sell 2,000,000 of them. The 50 engineers still do the same exact work as if they sold only 100,000, so they don't need more of those, but they will need more blue collar workers in the factories to meet this extra demand.

So, I'm just not too convinced that buying Japanese cars actually makes the American companies require many fewer engineers to design their cars. But, having more choice and more companies to choose from, with the Japanese makers starting to engineer and design in the US, means that more engineers/designers in the US are hired.

Now, I may be wrong, of course, but that's how it seems to me.

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<font color=blue> "Trying is the first step towards failure." </font color=blue>

Sure, how's this sound, 300HP, 900lb. I have another one...600HP, 1200lb, but it's a different design.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

Oh well, that's capitalism. Until I am convinced American cars aren't crap, I will buy Toyotas, as I and everyone I know has only had good experiences with them, while I cannot say the same for American cars.

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<font color=blue> "Trying is the first step towards failure." </font color=blue>

Sorry, I should have been more specific. 92% @ ~80% load.

The heat exchangers that I have seen are most often larger than the turbine themselves.

<A HREF="http://www.fourforty.com/turbine/" target="_new">Chrysler</A> made a turbine car in 1963 and Toyota dabbled with the idea in the 80's.

Never said they were.

More accurately, they are large and heavy OR expensive
Lead acid is very cheap and heavy, Lithium Ion is very light and expensive (prices are dropping rapidly with the advent of lithium sulphur).

As opposed to the huge amounts of toxic crap DURING the life of an internal combustion engine.

We use wind and water exclusively.


The Pen is mightier than the Sword, but the Sword is better if you need back up.