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Question about copyrighting songs before they are publishe..

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Anonymous
November 23, 2004 5:36:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

This question must get asked a lot - and I apologize if it's in any sort of
FAQ I haven't seen - but how does an unpublished Canadian artist copyright
songs before putting them online or sending out demos... other than the
traditional registered timestamped snail-mail method?

Is there a "copyright office" that keeps a record of songs? Especially now
that they can easily be kept digitally via mp3 and don't take up any
physical space.

Calls to Canada Copyrights didn't lead to anything tangible, and I'm waiting
to hear back from the SOCAN.

Thanks for any information you can provide.
Anonymous
November 23, 2004 10:51:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

There is some information on SOCAN's website about copyright here:

http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrksv/cipo/cp/copy_gd_main...

The "poor man's copyright" debate has been argued to death in this
newsgroup...personally, I wouldn't think of it as much protection, but
that's just my take. Also, copyright in Canada does not protect anything
more than the title, whereas a US copyright protects the melody and lyrics,
so you might consider investing in that if you feel you have to.

Practically speaking, however, even most pro songwriters do not copyright a
song until they are fairly sure that it will be published or recorded. Most
novice songwriters are often more worried than they should be :-)

--
IJ
http://www.irenejackson.com
http://www.irenejackson.com/tips.html
"Jon J. Yeager" <nospam@please.com> wrote in message
news:adMod.130483$yx6.1433187@weber.videotron.net...
> This question must get asked a lot - and I apologize if it's in any sort
> of FAQ I haven't seen - but how does an unpublished Canadian artist
> copyright songs before putting them online or sending out demos... other
> than the traditional registered timestamped snail-mail method?
>
> Is there a "copyright office" that keeps a record of songs? Especially now
> that they can easily be kept digitally via mp3 and don't take up any
> physical space.
>
> Calls to Canada Copyrights didn't lead to anything tangible, and I'm
> waiting to hear back from the SOCAN.
>
> Thanks for any information you can provide.
>
Anonymous
November 23, 2004 10:51:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

"Irene Jackson" <ijnospam@irenejackson.com> wrote in message
news:1xMod.308533$Pl.115930@pd7tw1no...
> There is some information on SOCAN's website about copyright here:
>
> http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrksv/cipo/cp/copy_gd_main...
>
> The "poor man's copyright" debate has been argued to death in this
> newsgroup...personally, I wouldn't think of it as much protection, but
> that's just my take. Also, copyright in Canada does not protect anything
> more than the title, whereas a US copyright protects the melody and
> lyrics, so you might consider investing in that if you feel you have to.

I do. How much is it, and is it accessible to non-US citizens?
Related resources
Anonymous
November 23, 2004 10:51:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

"Irene Jackson" <ijnospam@irenejackson.com> wrote in message news:<1xMod.308533$Pl.115930@pd7tw1no>...
> There is some information on SOCAN's website about copyright here:
>
> http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrksv/cipo/cp/copy_gd_main...
>
> The "poor man's copyright" debate has been argued to death in this
> newsgroup...personally, I wouldn't think of it as much protection, but
> that's just my take.

No, it's not your take it's the laws take! No such thing as a poor
mans copyright. Lets all make up things! What about a poor mans money
order? Just mail a copy of a previously used money order!




Also, copyright in Canada does not protect anything
> more than the title, whereas a US copyright protects the melody and lyrics,
> so you might consider investing in that if you feel you have to.

Another shining moment of ignorance on your part! You are how old?
been writing for how long? And you don't even know what a Canadian
copyright covers? What a winner!
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 12:47:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

In Canada is the very interesting online copyrightdepot.com where
people of all over the world can do a deposit of 10 MB for only 9 euro!
http://www.copyrightdepot.com/

Vivian
-----------
http://www.soundclick.com/Vivien

"Jon J. Yeager" wrote:

> This question must get asked a lot - and I apologize if it's in any sort of
> FAQ I haven't seen - but how does an unpublished Canadian artist copyright
> songs before putting them online or sending out demos... other than the
> traditional registered timestamped snail-mail method?
>
> Is there a "copyright office" that keeps a record of songs? Especially now
> that they can easily be kept digitally via mp3 and don't take up any
> physical space.
>
> Calls to Canada Copyrights didn't lead to anything tangible, and I'm waiting
> to hear back from the SOCAN.
>
> Thanks for any information you can provide.
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 12:47:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

Great! Is there an English equivalant?
"Viviane Beullens" <Viviane.Beullens@swing.be> wrote in message
news:41A3A1F6.EE9D6962@swing.be...
>
> In Canada is the very interesting online copyrightdepot.com where
> people of all over the world can do a deposit of 10 MB for only 9 euro!
> http://www.copyrightdepot.com/
>
> Vivian
> -----------
> http://www.soundclick.com/Vivien
>
> "Jon J. Yeager" wrote:
>
>> This question must get asked a lot - and I apologize if it's in any sort
>> of
>> FAQ I haven't seen - but how does an unpublished Canadian artist
>> copyright
>> songs before putting them online or sending out demos... other than the
>> traditional registered timestamped snail-mail method?
>>
>> Is there a "copyright office" that keeps a record of songs? Especially
>> now
>> that they can easily be kept digitally via mp3 and don't take up any
>> physical space.
>>
>> Calls to Canada Copyrights didn't lead to anything tangible, and I'm
>> waiting
>> to hear back from the SOCAN.
>>
>> Thanks for any information you can provide.
>
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 12:47:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

"Viviane Beullens" <Viviane.Beullens@swing.be> wrote in message
news:41A3A1F6.EE9D6962@swing.be...
>
> In Canada is the very interesting online copyrightdepot.com where
> people of all over the world can do a deposit of 10 MB for only 9 euro!
> http://www.copyrightdepot.com/
>
> Vivian
> -----------
> http://www.soundclick.com/Vivien

Hi Viviane/Vivian/Vivien (you spell your own name 3 different ways in a
single post! :) 

I am not impressed by copyrightdepot.com... first, the website seems
freakishly amateurish. And here's one of the first quotes I came across :

"ATTENTION : Please take the time to read all the informations before
contact us. 99,9% of all e-mail request concern very well explicated matter.
Help us to keep this low price service. Do your part and read all the
informations."

Not exactly trust-inspiring, is it? ;) 

When dealing with sensitive legal matters, one would expect such an
organization to at least use a competent translator. If the copy writer is
this incompetent, what does this potentially say of the notary they claim to
be using? I mean, isn't this all about paperwork? Would you trust yours to
the people who wrote the above copy?
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 2:43:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 19:51:25 GMT, "Irene Jackson"
<ijnospam@irenejackson.com> wrote:

>There is some information on SOCAN's website about copyright here:
>
>http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrksv/cipo/cp/copy_gd_main...
>
>The "poor man's copyright" debate has been argued to death in this
>newsgroup...personally, I wouldn't think of it as much protection, but
>that's just my take. Also, copyright in Canada does not protect anything
>more than the title,

Why do you hold this opinion?

>whereas a US copyright protects the melody and lyrics,
>so you might consider investing in that if you feel you have to.
>
>Practically speaking, however, even most pro songwriters do not copyright a
>song until they are fairly sure that it will be published or recorded. Most
>novice songwriters are often more worried than they should be :-)

from
http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrksv/cipo/cp/copy_gd_prot...

When you create a work or other subject-matter protected by copyright,
you will automatically have copyright protection provided that, at the
time of creation, you were:

A a Canadian citizen or a person ordinarily resident in Canada;
B a citizen or subject of, or a person ordinarily resident in, a Berne
Convention country, a Universal Copyright Convention country, a Rome
Convention country (for sound recordings, performer's performances and
communication signals only), or a country that is a member of the
World Trade Organization (WTO) country; or
C a citizen or subject of, or a person ordinarily resident in, any
country to which the Minister has extended protection by notice in the
Canada Gazette.

In some cases, you would also obtain automatic copyright if your work
was first published in one of the countries included among those who
have signed the Berne, Universal Copyright or Rome Conventions or the
WTO agreement, even if you were not a citizen or subject of Canada, or
of one of those countries.

In short, virtually everyone living in Canada can enjoy the benefits
of automatic copyright protection. In addition, Canadians are
protected in most foreign countries since most belong to one or more
of the international treaties—the Berne Convention or the Universal
Copyright Convention, the Rome Convention or are members of the World
Trade Organization. Citizens of countries which are members of those
conventions enjoy the benefits of Canadian copyright law in Canada.
Canada also extends protection to certain non-member countries by way
of notice in the Canada Gazette.

Sound recordings themselves are protected internationally under the
Rome Convention and under the copyright treaties, but there is quite a
variation internationally as to the nature of the protection given to
sound recordings. In Canada, sound recordings enjoy a broad range of
protection under the Copyright Act.
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 2:58:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

"Jon J. Yeager" <nospam@please.com> wrote in message
news:N2Qod.140965$yx6.1581928@weber.videotron.net...
> "Irene Jackson" <ijnospam@irenejackson.com> wrote in message
> news:1xMod.308533$Pl.115930@pd7tw1no...
>> There is some information on SOCAN's website about copyright here:
>>
>> http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrksv/cipo/cp/copy_gd_main...
>>
>> The "poor man's copyright" debate has been argued to death in this
>> newsgroup...personally, I wouldn't think of it as much protection, but
>> that's just my take. Also, copyright in Canada does not protect anything
>> more than the title, whereas a US copyright protects the melody and
>> lyrics, so you might consider investing in that if you feel you have to.
>
> I do. How much is it, and is it accessible to non-US citizens?


$30US and yes anyone can file for a US copyright. You'll need the short
form PA here:
http://www.copyright.gov/forms/

IJ
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 2:58:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

"Irene Jackson" <ijnospam@irenejackson.com> wrote in message
news:T8Qod.315539$nl.308786@pd7tw3no...
> "Jon J. Yeager" <nospam@please.com> wrote in message
> news:N2Qod.140965$yx6.1581928@weber.videotron.net...
>> "Irene Jackson" <ijnospam@irenejackson.com> wrote in message
>> news:1xMod.308533$Pl.115930@pd7tw1no...
>>> There is some information on SOCAN's website about copyright here:
>>>
>>> http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrksv/cipo/cp/copy_gd_main...
>>>
>>> The "poor man's copyright" debate has been argued to death in this
>>> newsgroup...personally, I wouldn't think of it as much protection, but
>>> that's just my take. Also, copyright in Canada does not protect
>>> anything more than the title, whereas a US copyright protects the melody
>>> and lyrics, so you might consider investing in that if you feel you have
>>> to.
>>
>> I do. How much is it, and is it accessible to non-US citizens?
>
>
> $30US and yes anyone can file for a US copyright. You'll need the short
> form PA here:
> http://www.copyright.gov/forms/

I only caught the tail-end of this thread, but... does one album constitute
a single copyrightable item, or is it per song necessarily?

Perhaps on a per-CD content basis?
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 3:03:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

Alright, here's the deal. In Canada there is no need to submit copies of the
work to be copyrighted to some office. Copyright in Canada occurs upon
fixation of the work in a tangible form. Copright is therefore Automatic
upon fixation. Canadian Copright covers ANY music as long as the work is in
a tangible form (recorded to audio, scored on sheet music, etc). If the
music has not been fixed (in other words, if it's a great idea floating
around in your head) it has not been copyrighted.

In order to be eligible for copright under the Act you music satisfy 3
requirments:
1) At the date the work is created you must be a Canadian, British or treaty
country citizen or resident
2) The work must be Original. (the idea need not be original, but the form
must be)
3) The work must be fixed in some material form capable of identification.

Whoever said that copyright does not cover anything more than the title is
entirely incorrect. In fact they have it quite backwards, for the title of a
song is not protected by copyright, but the content of the song is.

From the Canadian Copright Act summary: "The word "original" is key in
defining a work that qualifies for copyright protection. Naturally, you
cannot obtain a copyright for someone else's creation. Originality can be
tricky to determine, however, and many court cases revolve around the
question of whether a work has been copied, even in part, from somebody
else's work."

This may leave you uneasy but i have had many talks with Socan employee's
who assure me that it is entirely enforceable. "Oh Yeah??" i asked
pessimistically, but he responded that IF someone ever OUTRIGHT STOLE my
composition and claimed it was their own, the case would be brought to court
in which case witnesses would be called. Witnesses would include musical
partners (other members of a band), your publisher, your manager, any
colleagues or associates who can vouch for this being your product.
Multitrack recordings, track sheets, documentation of any sort would also
come into play. This could also include mailing a self addressed packaged
(but even that has not stood up in court on certain instances). Just like
any court case, the more evidence the better.

You should also know that by entering into a publishing agreement you are
giving licensing over your copyright to your publisher. And by the way,
PLEASE have your publishing agreement read my an ENTERTAINMENT lawyer.

Hope this helps a little,

Roach

"Jon J. Yeager" <nospam@please.com> wrote in message
news:adMod.130483$yx6.1433187@weber.videotron.net...
> This question must get asked a lot - and I apologize if it's in any sort
> of FAQ I haven't seen - but how does an unpublished Canadian artist
> copyright songs before putting them online or sending out demos... other
> than the traditional registered timestamped snail-mail method?
>
> Is there a "copyright office" that keeps a record of songs? Especially now
> that they can easily be kept digitally via mp3 and don't take up any
> physical space.
>
> Calls to Canada Copyrights didn't lead to anything tangible, and I'm
> waiting to hear back from the SOCAN.
>
> Thanks for any information you can provide.
>
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 3:30:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

English URL
http://www.copyrightdeposit.com/
The link to the English page was in the French's page upper left corner.

Vivian


rick hollett wrote:

> Great! Is there an English equivalant?
> "Viviane Beullens" <Viviane.Beullens@swing.be> wrote in message
> news:41A3A1F6.EE9D6962@swing.be...
> >
> > In Canada is the very interesting online copyrightdepot.com where
> > people of all over the world can do a deposit of 10 MB for only 9 euro!
> > http://www.copyrightdepot.com/
> >
> > Vivian
> > -----------
> > http://www.soundclick.com/Vivien
> >
> > "Jon J. Yeager" wrote:
> >
> >> This question must get asked a lot - and I apologize if it's in any sort
> >> of
> >> FAQ I haven't seen - but how does an unpublished Canadian artist
> >> copyright
> >> songs before putting them online or sending out demos... other than the
> >> traditional registered timestamped snail-mail method?
> >>
> >> Is there a "copyright office" that keeps a record of songs? Especially
> >> now
> >> that they can easily be kept digitally via mp3 and don't take up any
> >> physical space.
> >>
> >> Calls to Canada Copyrights didn't lead to anything tangible, and I'm
> >> waiting
> >> to hear back from the SOCAN.
> >>
> >> Thanks for any information you can provide.
> >
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 4:14:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

Jan -

Of course I trust them. And if you look at some of the companies who did their
deposits there, then you should be reassured.
It's normal they ask you to read their web pages; it's an internet service
and this and only this allows them to keep prices low.
We're in the Internet time now!

If you send an envelop to yourself this will be valid only one time!
You can also pay 30 $ per song if you want to. And how long will it be valid?



Viviane (In French it is Viviane, in English Vivian, and Vivien is because at
soundclick I had
no other choice, all the other Vivians existed already )



"Jon J. Yeager" wrote:

> "Viviane Beullens" <Viviane.Beullens@swing.be> wrote in message
> news:41A3A1F6.EE9D6962@swing.be...
> >
> > In Canada is the very interesting online copyrightdepot.com where
> > people of all over the world can do a deposit of 10 MB for only 9 euro!
> > http://www.copyrightdepot.com/
> >
> > Vivian
> > -----------
> > http://www.soundclick.com/Vivien
>
> Hi Viviane/Vivian/Vivien (you spell your own name 3 different ways in a
> single post! :) 
>
> I am not impressed by copyrightdepot.com... first, the website seems
> freakishly amateurish. And here's one of the first quotes I came across :
>
> "ATTENTION : Please take the time to read all the informations before
> contact us. 99,9% of all e-mail request concern very well explicated matter.
> Help us to keep this low price service. Do your part and read all the
> informations."
>
> Not exactly trust-inspiring, is it? ;) 
>
> When dealing with sensitive legal matters, one would expect such an
> organization to at least use a competent translator. If the copy writer is
> this incompetent, what does this potentially say of the notary they claim to
> be using? I mean, isn't this all about paperwork? Would you trust yours to
> the people who wrote the above copy?
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 8:14:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

"Sock Puppet #4" <nothanks@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:30iesiF2u7onaU1@uni-berlin.de...
> "Irene Jackson" <ijnospam@irenejackson.com> wrote in message
> news:T8Qod.315539$nl.308786@pd7tw3no...
>> "Jon J. Yeager" <nospam@please.com> wrote in message
>> news:N2Qod.140965$yx6.1581928@weber.videotron.net...
>>> "Irene Jackson" <ijnospam@irenejackson.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1xMod.308533$Pl.115930@pd7tw1no...
>>>> There is some information on SOCAN's website about copyright here:
>>>>
>>>> http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrksv/cipo/cp/copy_gd_main...
>>>>
>>>> The "poor man's copyright" debate has been argued to death in this
>>>> newsgroup...personally, I wouldn't think of it as much protection, but
>>>> that's just my take. Also, copyright in Canada does not protect
>>>> anything more than the title, whereas a US copyright protects the
>>>> melody and lyrics, so you might consider investing in that if you feel
>>>> you have to.
>>>
>>> I do. How much is it, and is it accessible to non-US citizens?
>>
>>
>> $30US and yes anyone can file for a US copyright. You'll need the short
>> form PA here:
>> http://www.copyright.gov/forms/
>
> I only caught the tail-end of this thread, but... does one album
> constitute a single copyrightable item, or is it per song necessarily?
>
> Perhaps on a per-CD content basis?

Well, you can copyright a "collection" of songs for the price of one
copyright. There's also copyright for sound recording, which is a little
different.

IJ
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 8:22:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

"Mike Rocha" <therealroach@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:yaqdnYdUOptPiDncRVn-rw@rogers.com...

> Whoever said that copyright does not cover anything more than the title is
> entirely incorrect.

I stand corrected. However, this part of the Application for Copyright is
what leads me to believe that protection is limited:

"Do not send a copy of your work along with the application. The Copyright
Office does not review or assess works in any way, nor does the Office check
to see if the title of your work has already been used."

In the US, you send a CD or tape of the work as well. I'm in Canada, by the
way.

IJ
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 8:22:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

"Irene Jackson" <ijnospam@irenejackson.com> wrote in message
news:vUUod.320844$%k.22180@pd7tw2no...
> "Mike Rocha" <therealroach@rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:yaqdnYdUOptPiDncRVn-rw@rogers.com...
>
>> Whoever said that copyright does not cover anything more than the title
>> is entirely incorrect.
>
> I stand corrected. However, this part of the Application for Copyright is
> what leads me to believe that protection is limited:
>
> "Do not send a copy of your work along with the application. The Copyright
> Office does not review or assess works in any way, nor does the Office
> check to see if the title of your work has already been used."

Also interesting is this dooooozy:
"However, registration is no guarantee against infringement. You have to
take legal action on your own if you believe your rights have been violated.
Also, registration is no guarantee that your claim of ownership will
eventually be recognized as legitimate. Note too, that the Copyright Office
does not check to ensure that your work is indeed original, as you claim.
Verification of your claim can only be done through a court of law."
http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrksv/cipo/cp/copy_gd_regi...

So basically, in Canada, you're paying 50 bucks per certificate which in the
end would be included in the pile of evidence that you'd drag to court if an
infringement case occurs. Just one more document, along with your
self-addressed envelope.

I guess what it comes down to is keep your documents as numerous, detailed
and organized as possible. This could include invoices from studio time, and
other production related invoices. I've been assured in the past that
infringements of copyright pertaining to musical work is quite rare. I
personally don't know anyone or have even heard of anyone going around
stealing the work of other people. Knock on wood....

I guess all this just goes to prove the age old adage that nothing in life
is for sure except for death and taxes.

Roach
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 10:28:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

"Irene Jackson" <ijnospam@irenejackson.com> wrote in message
news:GMUod.317559$nl.64029@pd7tw3no...
> "Sock Puppet #4" <nothanks@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:30iesiF2u7onaU1@uni-berlin.de...

> > I only caught the tail-end of this thread, but... does one album
> > constitute a single copyrightable item, or is it per song necessarily?
> >
> > Perhaps on a per-CD content basis?
>
> Well, you can copyright a "collection" of songs for the price of one
> copyright. There's also copyright for sound recording, which is a little
> different.

You can indeed copyright a collection of songs with a single copyright --
call it "Folio #1" or something like that. The advantage is obvious -- it's
cheap. The disadvantage is that the individual song titles won't show up in
the Copyright Office's database, so someone searching for one of your titles
won't find it. Whether that is important to you is, of course, up to you,
depending on what you foresee doing with your songs.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 12:43:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

In article <yaqdnYdUOptPiDncRVn-rw@rogers.com> therealroach@rogers.com writes:

> Alright, here's the deal. In Canada there is no need to submit copies of the
> work to be copyrighted to some office. Copyright in Canada occurs upon
> fixation of the work in a tangible form. Copright is therefore Automatic
> upon fixation.

This is the same in the US, and probably in most countries now.

What most people mean when they ask about "copyrighting a song" is
registration of the copyright. This is a formal process where you fill
out a form and pay a fee for filing it. Registration makes proof of
ownership easier and allows certain expenses to be included in an
infringement lawsuit if you have to file one.

Commercial songwriters and publishers routinely register copyrights
because it's protection for their trade material. Amateur songwriters
who have dreams of selling songs to publisers who will place their
songs with famous artists (dreamers, mostly, but it has happened) can
usually get away without copyright registration since the chances of
having their song stolen by someone who will actually make money from
it are tiny.

But if you're going to do it, do it and don't look for ways to save a
few bucks and expect the same protection. It doesn't work that way.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 2:22:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

Jon J. Yeager wrote:
> "Viviane Beullens" <Viviane.Beullens@swing.be> wrote in message
> news:41A3A1F6.EE9D6962@swing.be...
>
>>In Canada is the very interesting online copyrightdepot.com where
>>people of all over the world can do a deposit of 10 MB for only 9 euro!
>>http://www.copyrightdepot.com/
>>
>>Vivian
>>-----------
>>http://www.soundclick.com/Vivien
>
>
> Hi Viviane/Vivian/Vivien (you spell your own name 3 different ways in a
> single post! :) 
>
> I am not impressed by copyrightdepot.com... first, the website seems
> freakishly amateurish. And here's one of the first quotes I came across :
>
> "ATTENTION : Please take the time to read all the informations before
> contact us. 99,9% of all e-mail request concern very well explicated matter.
> Help us to keep this low price service. Do your part and read all the
> informations."
>
> Not exactly trust-inspiring, is it? ;) 
>
> When dealing with sensitive legal matters, one would expect such an
> organization to at least use a competent translator. If the copy writer is
> this incompetent, what does this potentially say of the notary they claim to
> be using? I mean, isn't this all about paperwork? Would you trust yours to
> the people who wrote the above copy?
>
>

All this site does is date stamp your work. For this they charge $14
Canadian. Posting it to soundclick achieves the same thing for that they
charge $0 Canadian.

Cheers

Gary

--

--semper sume remedium casum--
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/garyyeomans.htm
http://www.mp3.com.au/artist.asp?id=11367
http://members.optusnet.com.au/snabbu/home.html
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 2:22:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

"snabbu" <snabbu@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:41A3D44B.6010403@optushome.com.au...
> Jon J. Yeager wrote:
>>
>> When dealing with sensitive legal matters, one would expect such an
>> organization to at least use a competent translator. If the copy writer
>> is this incompetent, what does this potentially say of the notary they
>> claim to be using? I mean, isn't this all about paperwork? Would you
>> trust yours to the people who wrote the above copy?
>
> All this site does is date stamp your work. For this they charge $14
> Canadian. Posting it to soundclick achieves the same thing for that they
> charge $0 Canadian.

I'm not sure how much an "uploaded" date on Soundclick could hold up in
court. What if you're buddies with the admin? Couldn't you claim you
uploaded "Vertigo" 3 or 4 years before U2 released it?

It's not like computer timestamps are hard to forge.
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 4:12:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1101299835k@trad...
>
> In article <yaqdnYdUOptPiDncRVn-rw@rogers.com> therealroach@rogers.com
> writes:
>
>> Alright, here's the deal. In Canada there is no need to submit copies of
>> the
>> work to be copyrighted to some office. Copyright in Canada occurs upon
>> fixation of the work in a tangible form. Copright is therefore Automatic
>> upon fixation.
>
> This is the same in the US, and probably in most countries now.
>
> What most people mean when they ask about "copyrighting a song" is
> registration of the copyright. This is a formal process where you fill
> out a form and pay a fee for filing it. Registration makes proof of
> ownership easier and allows certain expenses to be included in an
> infringement lawsuit if you have to file one.
>
> Commercial songwriters and publishers routinely register copyrights
> because it's protection for their trade material. Amateur songwriters
> who have dreams of selling songs to publisers who will place their
> songs with famous artists (dreamers, mostly, but it has happened) can
> usually get away without copyright registration since the chances of
> having their song stolen by someone who will actually make money from
> it are tiny.
>
> But if you're going to do it, do it and don't look for ways to save a
> few bucks and expect the same protection. It doesn't work that way.

Are you referring to the $30-per-song registration at
www.copyright.gov/forms as suggested by Irene, which store a physical copy
of your song and lyrics?

Or the "registration of name" only that exists in Canada (which doesn't
store anything but the title, and hence I wonder what good that is at the
end of the day).
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 6:54:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

In my humble opinion, having researched copyright issues for various
reasons over the past ten years, you should forget about registration
issues and concentrate on trying to create something worth stealing.

If you were to register every song you think might get stolen, you might
spend thousands, only to eventually realize that the problem is not
guarding your work, but getting it out there, and getting it heard.

Popular music is not like alchemy or roulette. The Beatles didn't hit a
lucky combination of notes. They worked very, very hard, and it was the
combination of their hard work, their talents, their personalities, and
the active promotion of Brian Epstein that eventually led to the
creation of songs worth stealing. By that time, I doubt they were very
concerned about protecting their melodies, although I'm sure George's
professional pride took a beating after the "My Sweet Lord" lawsuit.

In any case, any songs that they might have registered before they were
successful would have been almost completely irrelevant to them at that
point.

In any case, the odds that someone might hear your song on a web site,
and not having every heard of you, and not having ever heard the song,
and having the means to present a new version of it, and the inclination
to steal it, along with the talent to create a viable new performance of
it, etc., etc.... it's just too far out there to really be worth this
much concern.

Odds are, you might never have a melody stolen... but your agent,
manager, lawyer, and record company will have picked you clean by then
anyway.

Good luck.


Jon J. Yeager wrote:
> "Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
>
> Are you referring to the $30-per-song registration at
> www.copyright.gov/forms as suggested by Irene, which store a physical copy
> of your song and lyrics?
>
> Or the "registration of name" only that exists in Canada (which doesn't
> store anything but the title, and hence I wonder what good that is at the
> end of the day).
>
>
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 7:20:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

Sock Puppet #4 wrote:
> "snabbu" <snabbu@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
> news:41A3D44B.6010403@optushome.com.au...
>
>>Jon J. Yeager wrote:
>>
>>>When dealing with sensitive legal matters, one would expect such an
>>>organization to at least use a competent translator. If the copy writer
>>>is this incompetent, what does this potentially say of the notary they
>>>claim to be using? I mean, isn't this all about paperwork? Would you
>>>trust yours to the people who wrote the above copy?
>>
>>All this site does is date stamp your work. For this they charge $14
>>Canadian. Posting it to soundclick achieves the same thing for that they
>>charge $0 Canadian.
>
>
> I'm not sure how much an "uploaded" date on Soundclick could hold up in
> court. What if you're buddies with the admin? Couldn't you claim you
> uploaded "Vertigo" 3 or 4 years before U2 released it?
>
> It's not like computer timestamps are hard to forge.
>
>

That would require Soundclick to conspire with you in a contempt of
court. As well as the usenet admin if you did what most people do. That
is post it here and link it. Together with half a dozen affidavits from
the regulars on this board as to when it existed. I'm sure it would
stand up. Time stamp sites are a waste of money.

Cheers

Gary



--

--semper sume remedium casum--
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/garyyeomans.htm
http://www.mp3.com.au/artist.asp?id=11367
http://members.optusnet.com.au/snabbu/home.html
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 7:20:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

From what I understand (and I am *not* a lawyer), in the USA you can sue
successfully for copyright infringement only if you've actually registered
the copyright with the Copyright Office. The copyright actually exists from
the moment of the work's creation, but it's not enforceable without the
registration. Thus, date-stamping schemes (online or
mail-an-envelope-to-yourself) won't hold up in court.

If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll know in a few minutes.

Peace,
Paul
November 24, 2004 10:46:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

> I guess what it comes down to is keep your documents as numerous, detailed
> and organized as possible. This could include invoices from studio time,
and
> other production related invoices. I've been assured in the past that
> infringements of copyright pertaining to musical work is quite rare. I
> personally don't know anyone or have even heard of anyone going around
> stealing the work of other people. Knock on wood....
>
> I guess all this just goes to prove the age old adage that nothing in life
> is for sure except for death and taxes.
>
> Roach

I agree.

I still fail to see why people are so paranoid about protecting their songs.
We all know that making money from a song has little to do with the quality
of it. Both good, and extremely bad songs, can become hits. Not only that
but a lot of hit songs are written in less than an hour. It would take
someone longer than that to steal one!

Writing the song is the easy part. Making money from it is the difficult
bit. It is now so difficult to come up with a completely original (but still
attractive) melody, that most infringment cases that come up in court are no
more than unfortunate coincidences.

I haven't registered any of my songs, and neither do I intend to. If the
proof I have of date of creation isn't good enough to win a case (in the
highly unlikely event that one should arise), anyone who can make more money
than me from one of my songs is welcome to it. I may just hassle them for
some marketing tips though! :o )
--
Lynn
==============
Listen to my music...
http://www.soundclick.com/wobbly
http://www.soundclick.com/lynn
http://www.soundclick.com/johnmckeon
http://www.soundclick.com/dickosboogieband
http://music.download.com/lynn/3600-8573_32-100401380.h...


"Mike Rocha" <therealroach@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:UrCdndqLyJZUvTncRVn-rA@rogers.com...
>
> "Irene Jackson" <ijnospam@irenejackson.com> wrote in message
> news:vUUod.320844$%k.22180@pd7tw2no...
> > "Mike Rocha" <therealroach@rogers.com> wrote in message
> > news:yaqdnYdUOptPiDncRVn-rw@rogers.com...
> >
> >> Whoever said that copyright does not cover anything more than the title
> >> is entirely incorrect.
> >
> > I stand corrected. However, this part of the Application for Copyright
is
> > what leads me to believe that protection is limited:
> >
> > "Do not send a copy of your work along with the application. The
Copyright
> > Office does not review or assess works in any way, nor does the Office
> > check to see if the title of your work has already been used."
>
> Also interesting is this dooooozy:
> "However, registration is no guarantee against infringement. You have to
> take legal action on your own if you believe your rights have been
violated.
> Also, registration is no guarantee that your claim of ownership will
> eventually be recognized as legitimate. Note too, that the Copyright
Office
> does not check to ensure that your work is indeed original, as you claim.
> Verification of your claim can only be done through a court of law."
> http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrksv/cipo/cp/copy_gd_regi...
>
> So basically, in Canada, you're paying 50 bucks per certificate which in
the
> end would be included in the pile of evidence that you'd drag to court if
an
> infringement case occurs. Just one more document, along with your
> self-addressed envelope.
>
> I guess what it comes down to is keep your documents as numerous, detailed
> and organized as possible. This could include invoices from studio time,
and
> other production related invoices. I've been assured in the past that
> infringements of copyright pertaining to musical work is quite rare. I
> personally don't know anyone or have even heard of anyone going around
> stealing the work of other people. Knock on wood....
>
> I guess all this just goes to prove the age old adage that nothing in life
> is for sure except for death and taxes.
>
> Roach
>
>
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 11:51:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

In article <g54pd.66953$3u6.1993226@wagner.videotron.net> nospam@please.com writes:

> Are you referring to the $30-per-song registration at
> www.copyright.gov/forms as suggested by Irene, which store a physical copy
> of your song and lyrics?

I guess so. Since I'm not a songwriter, I don't keep up with the
latest on cost and place to submit, but that sounds right.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 11:51:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

In article <co2oef$c80$1@hercules.btinternet.com> lynnmonkVIRUSFREE@btclick.com writes:

> I haven't registered any of my songs, and neither do I intend to. If the
> proof I have of date of creation isn't good enough to win a case (in the
> highly unlikely event that one should arise), anyone who can make more money
> than me from one of my songs is welcome to it. I may just hassle them for
> some marketing tips though! :o )

It's one of those things that happens once in a blue moon, and usually
it's an honest mistake - someone hears a song and tries to find the
author or publisher but can't and is willing to pay up when the
rightful owner comes forth. Sometimes it takes a little encouragement
with a two-by-four on the part of a go-between, but people who are in
a position to make a lot of money from a song don't usually steal
songs.

Where the courts have fun is when someone hears your song, then writes
something similar enough so that you say "Hey, that's my song, almost"
and then you try to collect. Hey, it worked for She's So Fine.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
November 24, 2004 11:51:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

In article <41A4F4FA.90903@christian-horizons.org> trashtrash@christian-horizons.org writes:

> In my humble opinion, having researched copyright issues for various
> reasons over the past ten years, you should forget about registration
> issues and concentrate on trying to create something worth stealing.
>
> If you were to register every song you think might get stolen, you might
> spend thousands, only to eventually realize that the problem is not
> guarding your work, but getting it out there, and getting it heard.

This is why successful songwriters work for publishers (or own their
publishing company and understand how the business works). If you
write fifty songs a month, you don't register every one, you
take them to your publisher who picks three that he thinks he can
pitch to money-making artists, does the paperwork, and starts
marketing. Meanwhile, you shitcan the rest of that bunch of songs,
or put them on the shelf until the right customer comes along (the
publisher may even remember that you had a song about something that
an artist is looking for months from now). But you don't sing them at
the local coffee house or post them on a web site either (unless you
register them first).


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
November 25, 2004 12:36:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

"Bill Van Dyk" <trash@christian-horizons.org> wrote in message
news:41A4F4FA.90903@christian-horizons.org...
> In my humble opinion, having researched copyright issues for various
> reasons over the past ten years, you should forget about registration
> issues and concentrate on trying to create something worth stealing.

Well said :-)

IJ
Anonymous
November 25, 2004 3:39:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

Sock Puppet #4 wrote:
> "Irene Jackson" <ijnospam@irenejackson.com> wrote in message
> news:T8Qod.315539$nl.308786@pd7tw3no...
>
>>"Jon J. Yeager" <nospam@please.com> wrote in message
>>news:N2Qod.140965$yx6.1581928@weber.videotron.net...
>>
>>>"Irene Jackson" <ijnospam@irenejackson.com> wrote in message
>>>news:1xMod.308533$Pl.115930@pd7tw1no...
>>>
>>>>There is some information on SOCAN's website about copyright here:
>>>>
>>>>http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrksv/cipo/cp/copy_gd_main...
>>>>
>>>>The "poor man's copyright" debate has been argued to death in this
>>>>newsgroup...personally, I wouldn't think of it as much protection, but
>>>>that's just my take. Also, copyright in Canada does not protect
>>>>anything more than the title, whereas a US copyright protects the melody
>>>>and lyrics, so you might consider investing in that if you feel you have
>>>>to.
>>>
>>>I do. How much is it, and is it accessible to non-US citizens?
>>
>>
>>$30US and yes anyone can file for a US copyright. You'll need the short
>>form PA here:
>>http://www.copyright.gov/forms/
>
>
> I only caught the tail-end of this thread, but... does one album constitute
> a single copyrightable item, or is it per song necessarily?
>
> Perhaps on a per-CD content basis?
>
>
You can do a compilation or a body of work of several songs for the
price of one song. I just sent off my first batch of songs a couple of
weeks ago. Basically you just give the body of work a name. and then you
list the name of each piece of work within the body of work.

Eddie..............
Anonymous
November 25, 2004 11:42:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

"Jon J. Yeager" <nospam@please.com> wrote in message news:<adMod.130483$yx6.1433187@weber.videotron.net>...
> This question must get asked a lot - and I apologize if it's in any sort of
> FAQ I haven't seen - but how does an unpublished Canadian artist copyright
> songs before putting them online or sending out demos... other than the
> traditional registered timestamped snail-mail method?
>
> Is there a "copyright office" that keeps a record of songs? Especially now
> that they can easily be kept digitally via mp3 and don't take up any
> physical space.
>
> Calls to Canada Copyrights didn't lead to anything tangible, and I'm waiting
> to hear back from the SOCAN.
>
> Thanks for any information you can provide.

You will be able to have some legal leverage if you can manufacture
and sell a first pressing through some kind of distribution network,
big or small.

If you show that your work was complete and fixed in a commercially
available recording you will probably scare off anyone who might want
to take 'inspiration' from it.

I think you shouldn't worry unless the work has substantial
possibility for mass-appeal or commercial potential.

don't give away your publishing unless you have a guarantee that the
song will be commercially available through a national distribution
network within a reasonable amount of time, otherwise you will lose
control of the song for no reason and the publisher will increase its
catalog of songs for free.

MP3's have basically made a mess of global copyright infringement.
Anonymous
November 25, 2004 12:15:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

Mike Rocha wrote:

<snip>
> I guess what it comes down to is keep your documents as numerous, detailed
> and organized as possible. This could include invoices from studio time, and
> other production related invoices. I've been assured in the past that
> infringements of copyright pertaining to musical work is quite rare. I
> personally don't know anyone or have even heard of anyone going around
> stealing the work of other people. Knock on wood....
<snip>
> Roach
>
>

You are absolutely correct records are everything and not only in
Canada. This is true everywhere. You must keep a song diary.
Without it registration is next to valueless.
Cheers

Gary

--

--semper sume remedium casum--
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/garyyeomans.htm
http://www.mp3.com.au/artist.asp?id=11367
http://members.optusnet.com.au/snabbu/home.html
Anonymous
November 25, 2004 12:22:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

Paul Stamler wrote:
> From what I understand (and I am *not* a lawyer), in the USA you can sue
> successfully for copyright infringement only if you've actually registered
> the copyright with the Copyright Office. The copyright actually exists from
> the moment of the work's creation, but it's not enforceable without the
> registration. Thus, date-stamping schemes (online or
> mail-an-envelope-to-yourself) won't hold up in court.
>
> If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll know in a few minutes.
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>
>

A few minutes pass :-).
You can still sue. What it is is you do not have access to statutory
damages.
You can register after you become aware of being infringed.
As long as you register within 90 days of publication or becoming aware
of being infringed you have no problem. Longer time frames up to five
years from publication give you access to lesser remedies.

Cheers

Gary
--

--semper sume remedium casum--
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/garyyeomans.htm
http://www.mp3.com.au/artist.asp?id=11367
http://members.optusnet.com.au/snabbu/home.html
Anonymous
November 28, 2004 7:02:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

"Jon J. Yeager" <nospam@please.com> wrote in message news:<adMod.130483$yx6.1433187@weber.videotron.net>...
> This question must get asked a lot - and I apologize if it's in any sort of
> FAQ I haven't seen - but how does an unpublished Canadian artist copyright
> songs before putting them online or sending out demos... other than the
> traditional registered timestamped snail-mail method?
>
> Is there a "copyright office" that keeps a record of songs? Especially now
> that they can easily be kept digitally via mp3 and don't take up any
> physical space.
>
> Calls to Canada Copyrights didn't lead to anything tangible, and I'm waiting
> to hear back from the SOCAN.
>
> Thanks for any information you can provide.

One thing that will help you understand copyright is that the word
copyright is a noun not a verb. You can't ever copyright something.
You register the copyright. The moment you author the work, whether
it's a song or a recording or somehting else, you hold/own the
copyright. You can even use the C in a circle and the year.

Copyright disputes are settled with proof. A copyright registration
isn't proof, but it is something you should do before you publish your
work.
Anonymous
November 29, 2004 12:13:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:02:45 -0500, Mike Caffrey wrote
(in article <9b30ebb8.0411281602.27846f73@posting.google.com>):

> "Jon J. Yeager" <nospam@please.com> wrote in message
> news:<adMod.130483$yx6.1433187@weber.videotron.net>...
>> This question must get asked a lot - and I apologize if it's in any sort of
>> FAQ I haven't seen - but how does an unpublished Canadian artist copyright
>> songs before putting them online or sending out demos... other than the
>> traditional registered timestamped snail-mail method?
>>
>> Is there a "copyright office" that keeps a record of songs? Especially now
>> that they can easily be kept digitally via mp3 and don't take up any
>> physical space.
>>
>> Calls to Canada Copyrights didn't lead to anything tangible, and I'm
>> waiting
>> to hear back from the SOCAN.
>>
>> Thanks for any information you can provide.
>
> One thing that will help you understand copyright is that the word
> copyright is a noun not a verb. You can't ever copyright something.
> You register the copyright. The moment you author the work, whether
> it's a song or a recording or somehting else, you hold/own the
> copyright. You can even use the C in a circle and the year.
>
> Copyright disputes are settled with proof. A copyright registration
> isn't proof, but it is something you should do before you publish your
> work.

Copyright registration (and holding one) is proof that you had the material
at a specific point in time. I thought the main point was to nail that down
so that any disputes could address who had it first, No?

In that case a copyright is a proof of authorship as of a specific time.

Regards,

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Anonymous
November 30, 2004 3:52:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

Ty Ford <tyreeford@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<cKCdnf8DUuHuszbcRVn-oQ@comcast.com>...
> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:02:45 -0500, Mike Caffrey wrote
> (in article <9b30ebb8.0411281602.27846f73@posting.google.com>):
>
> > "Jon J. Yeager" <nospam@please.com> wrote in message
> > news:<adMod.130483$yx6.1433187@weber.videotron.net>...
> >> This question must get asked a lot - and I apologize if it's in any sort of
> >> FAQ I haven't seen - but how does an unpublished Canadian artist copyright
> >> songs before putting them online or sending out demos... other than the
> >> traditional registered timestamped snail-mail method?
> >>
> >> Is there a "copyright office" that keeps a record of songs? Especially now
> >> that they can easily be kept digitally via mp3 and don't take up any
> >> physical space.
> >>
> >> Calls to Canada Copyrights didn't lead to anything tangible, and I'm
> >> waiting
> >> to hear back from the SOCAN.
> >>
> >> Thanks for any information you can provide.
> >
> > One thing that will help you understand copyright is that the word
> > copyright is a noun not a verb. You can't ever copyright something.
> > You register the copyright. The moment you author the work, whether
> > it's a song or a recording or somehting else, you hold/own the
> > copyright. You can even use the C in a circle and the year.
> >
> > Copyright disputes are settled with proof. A copyright registration
> > isn't proof, but it is something you should do before you publish your
> > work.
>
> Copyright registration (and holding one) is proof that you had the material
> at a specific point in time. I thought the main point was to nail that down
> so that any disputes could address who had it first, No?
>
> In that case a copyright is a proof of authorship as of a specific time.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ty Ford

That's one piece of proof, but it's not necessarily definitive. For
instance, if you write a song in 1995 and play it with your band on a
cable access show in 1998 that has some kind indication of the date.
Then some how I hear the song in 2002 and decide I want to flat out
steal it. So I make a recording and credit myself as writer, send in
the recording an register the trade mark. Then I shop the recording
and get a record deal and rerecord it for my album which gets released
in 2004. Then you hear it and say "That's my song!" But you've never
registered the copyright.

Now you sue. We go to court. You got a copy of the video of the cable
acces show, band members, TV studio audience members and the channel
program director who all testify that you performed it in that year. I
show my copyright registration from years later and have no other
proof tha I wrote the song, especially becuase I didn't. A court would
see what had obviously happened.

Another possibility is that you did register the copright. You still
have to prove that you're not doing what I did in the previous
example. Pretty much anyone who's written a song has some general way
to indicate when they wrote it. Obviously people have heard it if
someone's stolen it.

The bigger issue is when you've submitted it to a label who then puts
out a very similar song. People do write cliches and it's possible
that two people came up with very similar ideas. It's possible someone
heard the song and was influence by it or even intentionally knocked
it off. That's where it gets much harder to prove. But either way, you
don't just mail in a photocopy of you copyright registration and get
millions.
Anonymous
November 30, 2004 10:16:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

Ty Ford wrote:

>
> Copyright registration (and holding one) is proof that you had the material
> at a specific point in time. I thought the main point was to nail that down
> so that any disputes could address who had it first, No?
<snip>
> Ty Ford


The short answer is No it isn't. It is a tertiary issue at best.
The main point is access, the secondary point is substantial similarity.
The third point is date of creation. I can write a song identical to
yours, you can have it registered, before me. However if you can not
prove I had access to your work you can not prove copying. Therefore no
infringement has taken place.

Cheers

Gary


--semper sume remedium casum--
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/garyyeomans.htm
http://www.mp3.com.au/artist.asp?id=11367
http://members.optusnet.com.au/snabbu/home.html
Anonymous
November 30, 2004 10:16:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

In article <41AB83AB.3090702@optushome.com.au> snabbu@optushome.com.au writes:

> I can write a song identical to
> yours, you can have it registered, before me. However if you can not
> prove I had access to your work you can not prove copying. Therefore no
> infringement has taken place.

This is why copyright registration (in the professional songwriting
industry anyway) is always associated with publishing. If the song has
been published, then you can't prove that you didn't have access to
it.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
November 30, 2004 6:47:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:
> In article <41AB83AB.3090702@optushome.com.au> snabbu@optushome.com.au writes:
>
>
>>I can write a song identical to
>>yours, you can have it registered, before me. However if you can not
>>prove I had access to your work you can not prove copying. Therefore no
>>infringement has taken place.
>
>
> This is why copyright registration (in the professional songwriting
> industry anyway) is always associated with publishing. If the song has
> been published, then you can't prove that you didn't have access to
> it.
>
>
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

I would agree with that. There is also in the US a legal requirement
that the LOC be provided with a copy of everything that is published.
This is a censorship issue. So it is convenient to do it all together
with just the one copy of the work.

Cheers

Gary

--

--semper sume remedium casum--
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/garyyeomans.htm
http://www.mp3.com.au/artist.asp?id=11367
http://members.optusnet.com.au/snabbu/home.html
Anonymous
December 1, 2004 3:41:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

"Mike Caffrey" <mike@monsterisland.com> wrote in message
news:9b30ebb8.0411300052.6731d0c7@posting.google.com...
> Ty Ford <tyreeford@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:<cKCdnf8DUuHuszbcRVn-oQ@comcast.com>...
> > On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:02:45 -0500, Mike Caffrey wrote
> > (in article <9b30ebb8.0411281602.27846f73@posting.google.com>):
> >
> > > "Jon J. Yeager" <nospam@please.com> wrote in message
> > > news:<adMod.130483$yx6.1433187@weber.videotron.net>...
> > >> This question must get asked a lot - and I apologize if it's in any
sort of
> > >> FAQ I haven't seen - but how does an unpublished Canadian artist
copyright
> > >> songs before putting them online or sending out demos... other than
the
> > >> traditional registered timestamped snail-mail method?
+++++snit++++++
_______________________

Hey,

Normally, copyright infringement of a musical work cannot be pursued in the
courts *in the United States* unless the work has been properly registered
with the Copyright Office at the U.S. Library of Congress, see
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html

Registering your songs with the LOC before any commercial use is the best
way to protect yourself, hands down.

Canadians would use the form PA for an unpublished musical work.

There are extremely few infringements of copyrights of musical works, mainly
because the music process and associated industries are so public.

-bg-

www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca
www.lchb.ca
Anonymous
December 1, 2004 11:39:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

"Irene Jackson" <ijnospam@irenejackson.com> wrote in message news:<vUUod.320844$%k.22180@pd7tw2no>...
> "Mike Rocha" <therealroach@rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:yaqdnYdUOptPiDncRVn-rw@rogers.com...
>
> > Whoever said that copyright does not cover anything more than the title is
> > entirely incorrect.
>
> I stand corrected. However, this part of the Application for Copyright is
> what leads me to believe that protection is limited:
>
> "Do not send a copy of your work along with the application. The Copyright
> Office does not review or assess works in any way, nor does the Office check
> to see if the title of your work has already been used."
>
> In the US, you send a CD or tape of the work as well. I'm in Canada, by the
> way.
>
> IJ

That's because it's a regitration and not a process. You could send in
two identical recordings with differnet titles and the copyright
office wouldnt even know. They're not evaluating them, it's jsut
storage incase there's a dispute.
Anonymous
December 25, 2004 11:36:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.makers.songwriting (More info?)

The real killer is that the US Copyright Office has actually for some time
now been disposing of most of the cassettes and other recordings that have
been deposited with them over the years.


>> "Do not send a copy of your work along with the application. The
>> Copyright
>> Office does not review or assess works in any way, nor does the Office
>> check
>> to see if the title of your work has already been used."
>>
>> In the US, you send a CD or tape of the work as well. I'm in Canada, by
>> the
>> way.
>>
>> IJ
>
> That's because it's a regitration and not a process. You could send in
> two identical recordings with differnet titles and the copyright
> office wouldnt even know. They're not evaluating them, it's jsut
> storage incase there's a dispute.
!