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Question re: Drum Overheads - what would you do?

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Anonymous
December 1, 2004 9:37:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I'm in search of an overhead pair, if you were (in the unfortunate
circumstances of being) me, what of the following would you do, regardless
of price?

1.) Buy an additional B.L.U.E Kiwi to go with one I already have? (pros =
multi-pattern, more versatile / cons = most expensive option listed).
2.) Buy an additional B.L.U.E Blueberry to go with one I already have?
(pros = can be had for ~ $600-ish on the used market / cons = VERY
characteristic sound, without much bottom end).
3.) Buy an additional Nuemann TLM-103 to go with one I have? (pros = can
be had for $600-$700 on the used market / cons = could end up being a bit
too much on the high end if used as overheads).
4.) Buy a matched pair of KM-184's? (pros = a reliable, decent-sounding
matched pair for any use requiring such / cons = 2nd most pricey option at
roughly $1,350 for the pair).
5.) Don't purchase any of the above, but use an existing pair of B.L.U.E.
Baby Bottles as overheads? (pros = no extra money spent, as I've already
got 'em. / cons = could be a bit too midrangey for this purpose)

I tend to favor LDC's for overheads, specifically u-87's, in fact, but for
my own studio I really can't afford a pair of those at this time, I've used
the KM-184's as room mics, and I like them and pretty much know what I'd be
getting with them as overheads, but if you've used any of the LDC options
I've mentioned, I'd love to hear about it, good or bad, or even just
opinions, etc.

Thanks in advance, guys.

Neil Henderson
Anonymous
December 1, 2004 12:53:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 01:37:04 -0500, Neil Henderson wrote
(in article <kEdrd.35119$bP2.14256@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com>):

> I'm in search of an overhead pair, if you were (in the unfortunate
> circumstances of being) me, what of the following would you do, regardless
> of price?
>
> 1.) Buy an additional B.L.U.E Kiwi to go with one I already have? (pros =
> multi-pattern, more versatile / cons = most expensive option listed).
> 2.) Buy an additional B.L.U.E Blueberry to go with one I already have?
> (pros = can be had for ~ $600-ish on the used market / cons = VERY
> characteristic sound, without much bottom end).
> 3.) Buy an additional Nuemann TLM-103 to go with one I have? (pros = can
> be had for $600-$700 on the used market / cons = could end up being a bit
> too much on the high end if used as overheads).
> 4.) Buy a matched pair of KM-184's? (pros = a reliable, decent-sounding
> matched pair for any use requiring such / cons = 2nd most pricey option at
> roughly $1,350 for the pair).
> 5.) Don't purchase any of the above, but use an existing pair of B.L.U.E.
> Baby Bottles as overheads? (pros = no extra money spent, as I've already
> got 'em. / cons = could be a bit too midrangey for this purpose)
>
> I tend to favor LDC's for overheads, specifically u-87's, in fact, but for
> my own studio I really can't afford a pair of those at this time, I've used
> the KM-184's as room mics, and I like them and pretty much know what I'd be
> getting with them as overheads, but if you've used any of the LDC options
> I've mentioned, I'd love to hear about it, good or bad, or even just
> opinions, etc.
>
> Thanks in advance, guys.
>
> Neil Henderson
>
>

Neumann TLM 127?
Neumann TLM 170?
Neumann U 89?

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
Anonymous
December 1, 2004 1:07:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Neil Henderson" <neil.henderson@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM> wrote in message news:kEdrd.35119$bP2.14256@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> I'm in search of an overhead pair, if you were (in the unfortunate
> circumstances of being) me, what of the following would you do, regardless
> of price?
>
> 1.) Buy an additional B.L.U.E Kiwi to go with one I already have? (pros =
> multi-pattern, more versatile / cons = most expensive option listed).
> 2.) Buy an additional B.L.U.E Blueberry to go with one I already have?
> (pros = can be had for ~ $600-ish on the used market / cons = VERY
> characteristic sound, without much bottom end).
> 3.) Buy an additional Nuemann TLM-103 to go with one I have? (pros = can
> be had for $600-$700 on the used market / cons = could end up being a bit
> too much on the high end if used as overheads).
> 4.) Buy a matched pair of KM-184's? (pros = a reliable, decent-sounding
> matched pair for any use requiring such / cons = 2nd most pricey option at
> roughly $1,350 for the pair).
> 5.) Don't purchase any of the above, but use an existing pair of B.L.U.E.
> Baby Bottles as overheads? (pros = no extra money spent, as I've already
> got 'em. / cons = could be a bit too midrangey for this purpose)
>
> I tend to favor LDC's for overheads, specifically u-87's, in fact, but for
> my own studio I really can't afford a pair of those at this time, I've used
> the KM-184's as room mics, and I like them and pretty much know what I'd be
> getting with them as overheads, but if you've used any of the LDC options
> I've mentioned, I'd love to hear about it, good or bad, or even just
> opinions, etc.
>
> Thanks in advance, guys.
>
> Neil Henderson


Nice collection of B.L.U.E. ... I haven't used a single one of them yet.

From a random set of ears that's probably not as good as yours...
I have tried the following, consistently, almost always in a spaced pair:

U-87 AI
U-47 Fet
C-414 (several varieties)
CAD E-300


The U-87s and the E-300s were just 'mics' in a non-reflective situation.
In that same environment, the C-414 (almost any incarnation) seemed
to 'see' the drum kit better in my ears... smoother and a little extended
across the top end, flat non-peaky mids and not too much bass. The
47 seems too dark to me.

I've tried your TLM-103 a few times... but I always ended up with a
small diaphragm if there was a choice.

In a live room, the U-47 was still dark but a lot more open... it likes the
space. The E-300 seemed to be 'real' sounding, but lacked something
in the upper frequencies that I was looking for. The 414s become the
'listeners from hell' and evoked evil thoughts of using Oktava MC012s
picked from a big box piled full of them at Guitar Sinner. The 87s usually
get the gig in a large open space.

All that said, and not knowing the B.L.U.E. models at all, and thinking
that my experience with the TLM-103 wasn't overly impressive along
side the other mics listed, I'm thinking you should still consider a pair
of SDC mics if you don't already have a few in the kit. You'll discover
a whole new world of stringed instruments as well, and might wonder
why you didn't start out with a pair.

I like 84s, 184s, 451s

My favorite has always been a pair of AKG C-451EB or a reasonable
incarnation of such. But more recently, the past 7 years or so, I've
gotten pretty fond of the Audio Technica stuff, like a set of 4041s or
4051s http://www.audiotechnica.com/prodpro/profiles/AT4051a.h...
I think these come in just below a set of KM-184s in price, and the
interchangeable caps could be a cost saving plus later on.

KM-84s are the cat's meaow if you can find 'em working well, but 184s
will darned sure do.

The preceeding paragraphs were made possible by the built-in mic
pre's on a D&R-4000, an MCI JH532(d), various API channel strips,
Soundcraft DC-2000, and the ocassional older Neve and a few too
many Mackie 8-Busses.

Is there some place local that will let you 'audition' LD stuff to compare
with your B.L.U.E. gear ?? (Pick up a couple of SDCs, too....)

.....Or there's always e-Bay.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com
Related resources
Anonymous
December 1, 2004 11:02:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I have liked KSM 32's for a lot of stuff.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637
Anonymous
December 1, 2004 11:25:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Blind Joni wrote:
> I have liked KSM 32's for a lot of stuff.
>
>
Shure gave me a 32 to use for my stage at Grey Fox
it is a fantastic , but overpriced mic
needs to be about 150$ cheaper as it is no more fantastic than a 4033
which you can get day in and day out for 300$
the 32 is running about 450 last I checked
George
Anonymous
December 1, 2004 11:25:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"George Gleason" <g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:QMprd.79462$7i4.44848@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Blind Joni wrote:
> > I have liked KSM 32's for a lot of stuff.
> >
> >
> Shure gave me a 32 to use for my stage at Grey Fox
> it is a fantastic , but overpriced mic
> needs to be about 150$ cheaper as it is no more fantastic than a 4033
> which you can get day in and day out for 300$
> the 32 is running about 450 last I checked
> George


For live use on an acoustic guitar with a full band which do you prefer - 32
or 4033?
Anonymous
December 2, 2004 12:23:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>Shure gave me a 32 to use for my stage at Grey Fox
>it is a fantastic , but overpriced mic
>needs to be about 150$ cheaper as it is no more fantastic than a 4033
>which you can get day in and day out for 300$

The 4033 is a good mic..but some jazz purists I know really dig the 32's..the
most neutral mic I have.

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637
Anonymous
December 2, 2004 4:41:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I would lean towards the pair of 184's. They are good on several things and a
good pair of SDC's is always a handy thing to have around. I was once a die
hard LDC fan for overheads and I used the 103's a lot for overheads. Their
round low end works nice in a good room. But, LDC's are not always what the
song needs. Lately I use the 184's almost 100% of the time for drum OH along
with a few other room mics. You have a few good mics already that you could
use to add some beef to your drum room sound and then the 184's for a more
tight up close sound.
So, my first choice, in your list of choices, would be to get a pair of 184's.
Second choice , since you like the LDC's on OH, get a second 103. (103's can
be good on toms too...sometimes a little boomy though.).
About the only thing I use the Baby Bottle on is a heavy gtr amp. They didn't
really live up to the hype for me.
Good luck with your decision. No matter what you decide, all of your choices
will work out at least decent.
JJ

>I'm in search of an overhead pair, if you were (in the unfortunate
>circumstances of being) me, what of the following would you do, regardless
>of price?
>
>1.) Buy an additional B.L.U.E Kiwi to go with one I already have? (pros =
>multi-pattern, more versatile / cons = most expensive option listed).
>2.) Buy an additional B.L.U.E Blueberry to go with one I already have?
>(pros = can be had for ~ $600-ish on the used market / cons = VERY
>characteristic sound, without much bottom end).
>3.) Buy an additional Nuemann TLM-103 to go with one I have? (pros = can
>be had for $600-$700 on the used market / cons = could end up being a bit
>too much on the high end if used as overheads).
>4.) Buy a matched pair of KM-184's? (pros = a reliable, decent-sounding
>matched pair for any use requiring such / cons = 2nd most pricey option at
>roughly $1,350 for the pair).
>5.) Don't purchase any of the above, but use an existing pair of B.L.U.E.
>Baby Bottles as overheads? (pros = no extra money spent, as I've already
>got 'em. / cons = could be a bit too midrangey for this purpose)
>
>I tend to favor LDC's for overheads, specifically u-87's, in fact, but for
>my own studio I really can't afford a pair of those at this time, I've used
>the KM-184's as room mics, and I like them and pretty much know what I'd be
>getting with them as overheads, but if you've used any of the LDC options
>I've mentioned, I'd love to hear about it, good or bad, or even just
>opinions, etc.
>
>Thanks in advance, guys.
>
>Neil Henderson
Anonymous
December 2, 2004 2:23:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

--

Somewhere in Texas, a village is missing its idiot.
"Blind Joni" <blindjoni@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041201150244.10458.00000898@mb-m25.aol.com...
> I have liked KSM 32's for a lot of stuff.
>
>
> John A. Chiara
> SOS Recording Studio
> Live Sound Inc.
> Albany, NY
> www.sosrecording.net
> 518-449-1637


I've been using KSM 44s (32s multipattern brother) in omni.
Anonymous
December 2, 2004 8:22:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I would get the pair of KM184s. I regularly try all the pairs I have & always
end up coming back to the KM140s for overheads. They are the most natural at
depicting the entire kit in a three dimensional sense. FWIW, the C414s are the
worst, in terms of realistic imagery, of the pairs I have.
Lately, I've been adding a distant mono track with a TLM103 for a bit more
space in the overheads.

Scott Fraser
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 4:54:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Good points about the SDC's - I don't have even a single SDC in my own
collection at this point, so I think I'm gonna go with the -184's.

Thanks guys!

Neil Henderson


"David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in message
news:vJgrd.5174$1z5.3045@trnddc06...
>
> "Neil Henderson" <neil.henderson@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM> wrote in message
> news:kEdrd.35119$bP2.14256@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>> I'm in search of an overhead pair, if you were (in the unfortunate
>> circumstances of being) me, what of the following would you do,
>> regardless
>> of price?
>>
>> 1.) Buy an additional B.L.U.E Kiwi to go with one I already have? (pros
>> =
>> multi-pattern, more versatile / cons = most expensive option listed).
>> 2.) Buy an additional B.L.U.E Blueberry to go with one I already have?
>> (pros = can be had for ~ $600-ish on the used market / cons = VERY
>> characteristic sound, without much bottom end).
>> 3.) Buy an additional Nuemann TLM-103 to go with one I have? (pros =
>> can
>> be had for $600-$700 on the used market / cons = could end up being a
>> bit
>> too much on the high end if used as overheads).
>> 4.) Buy a matched pair of KM-184's? (pros = a reliable, decent-sounding
>> matched pair for any use requiring such / cons = 2nd most pricey option
>> at
>> roughly $1,350 for the pair).
>> 5.) Don't purchase any of the above, but use an existing pair of B.L.U.E.
>> Baby Bottles as overheads? (pros = no extra money spent, as I've
>> already
>> got 'em. / cons = could be a bit too midrangey for this purpose)
>>
>> I tend to favor LDC's for overheads, specifically u-87's, in fact, but
>> for
>> my own studio I really can't afford a pair of those at this time, I've
>> used
>> the KM-184's as room mics, and I like them and pretty much know what I'd
>> be
>> getting with them as overheads, but if you've used any of the LDC options
>> I've mentioned, I'd love to hear about it, good or bad, or even just
>> opinions, etc.
>>
>> Thanks in advance, guys.
>>
>> Neil Henderson
>
>
> Nice collection of B.L.U.E. ... I haven't used a single one of them yet.
>
> From a random set of ears that's probably not as good as yours...
> I have tried the following, consistently, almost always in a spaced pair:
>
> U-87 AI
> U-47 Fet
> C-414 (several varieties)
> CAD E-300
>
>
> The U-87s and the E-300s were just 'mics' in a non-reflective situation.
> In that same environment, the C-414 (almost any incarnation) seemed
> to 'see' the drum kit better in my ears... smoother and a little extended
> across the top end, flat non-peaky mids and not too much bass. The
> 47 seems too dark to me.
>
> I've tried your TLM-103 a few times... but I always ended up with a
> small diaphragm if there was a choice.
>
> In a live room, the U-47 was still dark but a lot more open... it likes
> the
> space. The E-300 seemed to be 'real' sounding, but lacked something
> in the upper frequencies that I was looking for. The 414s become the
> 'listeners from hell' and evoked evil thoughts of using Oktava MC012s
> picked from a big box piled full of them at Guitar Sinner. The 87s
> usually
> get the gig in a large open space.
>
> All that said, and not knowing the B.L.U.E. models at all, and thinking
> that my experience with the TLM-103 wasn't overly impressive along
> side the other mics listed, I'm thinking you should still consider a pair
> of SDC mics if you don't already have a few in the kit. You'll discover
> a whole new world of stringed instruments as well, and might wonder
> why you didn't start out with a pair.
>
> I like 84s, 184s, 451s
>
> My favorite has always been a pair of AKG C-451EB or a reasonable
> incarnation of such. But more recently, the past 7 years or so, I've
> gotten pretty fond of the Audio Technica stuff, like a set of 4041s or
> 4051s http://www.audiotechnica.com/prodpro/profiles/AT4051a.h...
> I think these come in just below a set of KM-184s in price, and the
> interchangeable caps could be a cost saving plus later on.
>
> KM-84s are the cat's meaow if you can find 'em working well, but 184s
> will darned sure do.
>
> The preceeding paragraphs were made possible by the built-in mic
> pre's on a D&R-4000, an MCI JH532(d), various API channel strips,
> Soundcraft DC-2000, and the ocassional older Neve and a few too
> many Mackie 8-Busses.
>
> Is there some place local that will let you 'audition' LD stuff to compare
> with your B.L.U.E. gear ?? (Pick up a couple of SDCs, too....)
>
> ....Or there's always e-Bay.
>
> --
> David Morgan (MAMS)
> http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
> Morgan Audio Media Service
> Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
> _______________________________________
> http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com
>
>
>
>
>
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 4:54:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"ScotFraser" <scotfraser@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041202122221.05986.00000892@mb-m19.aol.com...
>I would get the pair of KM184s.

Yep, I think that's what I've settled on... thanks to all who responded!

Neil Henderson
Anonymous
December 3, 2004 11:47:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 20:54:00 -0500, Neil Henderson wrote
(in article <YGPrd.40357$Al3.20484@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>):

> Good points about the SDC's - I don't have even a single SDC in my own
> collection at this point, so I think I'm gonna go with the -184's.
>
> Thanks guys!
>
> Neil Henderson

I have a session coming up with what I'm told is a small drum kit. We're
recording in a tight but pleasant sounding space with a 7 ft ceiling area.
I'm going with 2 Schoeps cmc641 in coincident XY overhead (ceiling surfing),
a RE 27 on kick and (if needed) a 421 on snare.

If that doesn't work, I'll do something different.

Regards,

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com
!