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Sony to quit U.S. handheld business

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June 2, 2004 2:40:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Sony to exit non-Japanese PDAs
09:51 AEST Wed Jun 2 2004


AFP - Sony will pull out of all its Personal Digital Assistant (PDA, or
pocket computers) markets around the world except Japan, to concentrate on
wirelessly connected devices that can play movies, games and music.
"Sony is reassessing the direction of the conventional PDA market and Sony
will not introduce any new Clie handheld models in the United States and
Europe this fall," the group's French unit said.
In San Francisco, a Sony spokeswoman told CBS MarketWatch that "Sony
continues to view mobile devices as a key pillar to our core business growth
strategy.
"We will continue to provide our customers with an environment where they
can enjoy movies, games and music on a device that is easy to carry anywhere
at the same time."


She said Sony views wireless communications as an important feature on
mobile devices and will continue to develop in this direction, including
continued collaboration with Sony Ericsson, its joint venture with Swedish
mobile phone maker Ericsson.
"Product development and sales continue for the Japanese market only. Sony
is taking this time to examine the conventional PDA business and how it will
transition into the future," she said.

More details: http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-5223580.html?tag=adnews

--
Sincerely yours,
Dennis Crane
Multipurpose tracking soft for Palm OS PDA
http://www.utracksys.com
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 2:40:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

> "Sony is reassessing the direction of the conventional PDA market and Sony
> will not introduce any new Clie handheld models in the United States and
> Europe this fall," the group's French unit said.

Sorry to be negative, but GOOD! I know you all rave about the quality
and features of the Clies, but I wouldn't know because I am a Mac
user. I bought a Clie once because it had a lot of features that
Palm didn't have at the time, including mp3 playback (I think it was
the T-665C or something like that). I got it home and realized it
wouldn't sync to my computer, and I bristled at having to pay $30 or
$40 more for the Missing Sync. Yeah yeah yeah, Sony makes its own
computers that run Windoze, so they don't support the competition.
But if Palms sync to Macs, (which they still do) I don't see why Clies
shouldn't. I boxed it up and took it back to Circuit City for a
refund, and have never touched Clies again.

Maybe they wouldn't need to be reassessing the direction of their PDAs
if they had been Mac compatible?
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 7:48:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On 2 Jun 2004 07:08:55 -0700, John Newsome had this to say...


> > "Sony is reassessing the direction of the conventional PDA market and Sony
> > will not introduce any new Clie handheld models in the United States and
> > Europe this fall," the group's French unit said.
>
> Sorry to be negative, but GOOD! I know you all rave about the quality
> and features of the Clies, but I wouldn't know because I am a Mac
> user. I bought a Clie once because it had a lot of features that
> Palm didn't have at the time, including mp3 playback (I think it was
> the T-665C or something like that). I got it home and realized it
> wouldn't sync to my computer, and I bristled at having to pay $30 or
> $40 more for the Missing Sync. Yeah yeah yeah, Sony makes its own
> computers that run Windoze, so they don't support the competition.
> But if Palms sync to Macs, (which they still do) I don't see why Clies
> shouldn't. I boxed it up and took it back to Circuit City for a
> refund, and have never touched Clies again.
>
> Maybe they wouldn't need to be reassessing the direction of their PDAs
> if they had been Mac compatible?
>

But Pa1mOne has announced they have dropped Mac support for the new
desktop.

--
Hope this helps.
Jim Anderson
( 8(|) To email me just pull my_finger
Related resources
June 2, 2004 8:31:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Jim Anderson <fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote in message news:<MPG.1b27b2afbb8af03e989739@news.frontiernet.net>...


>
> But Pa1mOne has announced they have dropped Mac support for the new
> desktop.

You mean PalmSource dropped Mac support for OS 6
June 2, 2004 9:39:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On 2 Jun 2004 07:08:55 -0700, John Newsome <nusm@nettaxi.com> wrote:
>> "Sony is reassessing the direction of the conventional PDA market and Sony
>> will not introduce any new Clie handheld models in the United States and
>> Europe this fall," the group's French unit said.
>
> Sorry to be negative, but GOOD! I know you all rave about the quality
> and features of the Clies, but I wouldn't know because I am a Mac
> user. I bought a Clie once because it had a lot of features that
> Palm didn't have at the time, including mp3 playback (I think it was
> the T-665C or something like that). I got it home and realized it
> wouldn't sync to my computer, and I bristled at having to pay $30 or
> $40 more for the Missing Sync. Yeah yeah yeah, Sony makes its own
> computers that run Windoze, so they don't support the competition.
> But if Palms sync to Macs, (which they still do) I don't see why Clies
> shouldn't. I boxed it up and took it back to Circuit City for a
> refund, and have never touched Clies again.
>
> Maybe they wouldn't need to be reassessing the direction of their PDAs
> if they had been Mac compatible?

I doubt it would have made any difference. Do you think that their
bottom line would really have been affected all that much by
supporting an OS with a trivial market share - especially when
only a subset of that trivial market share would even need the
capability to sync?

Just looking at the history of Palm OS PDA's in the last 3
years, I think it's safe to say that it was Sony - and Sony alone -
who drove the adoption of features we take for granted now -
hires+ screens, faster processors, better audio, etc. Even
when they didn't come out with the first model with a particular
feature, they forced their ( rapidly dwindling ) competition
to do more than just release the same old PDA with a new
case.

With Sony out of the market, people who like Palm OS are
going to be the ultimate losers, especially if Palm goes back
to their old tradition of stagnation.
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 11:26:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

nusm@nettaxi.com (John Newsome) wrote in
news:68f2b2ef.0406020608.49178917@posting.google.com:

> Maybe they wouldn't need to be reassessing the direction of their PDAs
> if they had been Mac compatible?

Doesn't the Mac now have some sort of universal sync application as part of
its lifestyle suite? Seems to me that this would eliminate both the market
for and the need for an application.

--
Albert Nurick | www.TheDeliciousLife.com
albert@nurick.com | Your Guide to Restaurants
www.nurick.com | in Houston, Texas.
Anonymous
June 2, 2004 11:27:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

In article <Xns94FC92FE55D7Bnurickcom@24.93.44.119>, Albert Nurick
<albert@nurick.com> wrote:

> Doesn't the Mac now have some sort of universal sync application as part of
> its lifestyle suite? Seems to me that this would eliminate both the market
> for and the need for an application.

It does, but it doesn't speak Palm directly; it uses the HotSync
software in concert with it. Hopefully that will change with Palm not
writing their own new Desktop software for the Mac.

--
Garner R. Miller
Manchester, CT =USA=
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 12:52:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

"Dennis" <info@RE-MO-VEutracksys.com> wrote in message
news:c9jp17$25bm$1@news.wplus.net...
> Sony to exit non-Japanese PDAs
> 09:51 AEST Wed Jun 2 2004
>
>
> AFP - Sony will pull out of all its Personal Digital Assistant (PDA, or
> pocket computers) markets around the world except Japan, to concentrate on
> wirelessly connected devices that can play movies, games and music.
> "Sony is reassessing the direction of the conventional PDA market and Sony
> will not introduce any new Clie handheld models in the United States and
> Europe this fall," the group's French unit said.
> In San Francisco, a Sony spokeswoman told CBS MarketWatch that "Sony
> continues to view mobile devices as a key pillar to our core business
growth
> strategy.
> "We will continue to provide our customers with an environment where they
> can enjoy movies, games and music on a device that is easy to carry
anywhere
> at the same time."
>
>
> She said Sony views wireless communications as an important feature on
> mobile devices and will continue to develop in this direction, including
> continued collaboration with Sony Ericsson, its joint venture with Swedish
> mobile phone maker Ericsson.
> "Product development and sales continue for the Japanese market only. Sony
> is taking this time to examine the conventional PDA business and how it
will
> transition into the future," she said.
>
> More details: http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-5223580.html?tag=adnews
>
> --
> Sincerely yours,
> Dennis Crane
> Multipurpose tracking soft for Palm OS PDA
> http://www.utracksys.com
>
>

I been waiting for Palm OS Cobalt (6) Clie's, but Sony must have been
looking at PalmOne's OS Strategy and realised it a total mess.

I would not be surprised if Sony ship a Pocket PC handheld soon
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 12:52:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Previously on comp.sys.palmtops.pilot, jonren57 said:

; I been waiting for Palm OS Cobalt (6) Clie's, but Sony must have been
; looking at PalmOne's OS Strategy and realised it a total mess.
;
; I would not be surprised if Sony ship a Pocket PC handheld soon

If they switch, I'd almost be willing to bet on something with Symbian,
as that's what they use in their SonyEricsson smartphones.

--
Jeffrey Kaplan <*> www.gordol.org
The from userid is killfiled <*> Send personal mail to gordol

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." (Robert A.
Heinlein)
Anonymous
June 3, 2004 7:20:42 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

darkcomet@att.net (Christopher) wrote in message news:<be09aeca.0406021531.66a33ac0@posting.google.com>...
> Jim Anderson <fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote in message news:<MPG.1b27b2afbb8af03e989739@news.frontiernet.net>...
>
>
> >
> > But Pa1mOne has announced they have dropped Mac support for the new
> > desktop.
>
> You mean PalmSource dropped Mac support for OS 6

And so far they have back-peddled on this so fast that they might
sprain an ankle. At last report, PalmSOURCE said they are dropping
Mac support, but PalmONE said they weren't (or vice versa, I can't
keep them straight). Which probably means they will license Missing
Sync and bundle it with PalmOne handhelds. Fine, whatever it takes.

My original point was that I am on my fourth PDA (Handspring Platinum
-> Handspring Prism -> Palm m130 -> Tungsten T), my wife is on her
second (Palm m105 -> Palm m130), my mother is still on her first (Palm
m500), and my brother is on his first (Palm Tungsten E). Before I
bought the m130, I purchased a Sony T-615C, only to take it back when
I discovered it lacked Mac support without the additional purchase of
Missing Sync. Since Clies were already significantly more expensive
than Palm offerings, I couldn't justify spending even more money just
to get it to sync with my computer of choice. That's six PDAs Sony
didn't sell to me - two for me, two for my wife, one for my mother,
and one for my brother - because I purchased all of those PDAs for
either myself or as gifts and we are all Mac users. And Mac support
was such a simple thing, since there already *was* a Palm Desktop with
conduits for Mac. They just chose not to support Mac, and so I chose
not to support them. For that I say GOODBYE Sony and good riddance!

Lastly, you know it amazes me how Windows users almost seem afraid to
admit that Mac should even exist. Anytime someone mentions Mac, they
give the same answer - "miniscule market share." Yes, Mac has small
market share in the computing industry (but it certainly has grown in
recent years since the return of Jobs - more than Windows users want
to admit), but I'm talking about Palm OS users. I have yet to see any
numbers which confirm or deny my theory that something like 10%-20% of
Palm users are Mac users. Even at 10%, you're not talking about
"miniscule market share," you're talking about a significant base.
Which is why I would guess that PalmOne back-peddled so quickly on Mac
support.
June 3, 2004 4:30:39 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

> Lastly, you know it amazes me how Windows users almost seem afraid to
> admit that Mac should even exist. Anytime someone mentions Mac, they
> give the same answer - "miniscule market share." Yes, Mac has small
> market share in the computing industry (but it certainly has grown in
> recent years since the return of Jobs - more than Windows users want
> to admit),

I have no problem with people using Macs. I use Windows & Linux primarily
because they don't need propritory hardware.
Why don't Apple release a version of the mac OS for the standard PC? Half
the world would be lining up to try it!

Martin
Anonymous
June 4, 2004 12:34:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

In article <68f2b2ef.0406030220.71121e05@posting.google.com>,
nusm@nettaxi.com (John Newsome) wrote:

> And so far they have back-peddled on this so fast that they might
> sprain an ankle. At last report, PalmSOURCE said they are dropping
> Mac support, but PalmONE said they weren't (or vice versa, I can't
> keep them straight). Which probably means they will license Missing
> Sync and bundle it with PalmOne handhelds. Fine, whatever it takes.

No back pedalling there. PalmSource and PalmOne are two different
companies and their messages have been consistent.
Anonymous
June 4, 2004 1:02:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

I read a report (can't remember where) that stated that the problem with a
PDA and with a cellphone for manufacturers is that people generally buy a
new one when their old one breaks down... unlike computers where people are
more likely to replace them every few years even if they are not broken.
Regardless of the new bells/whistles in these high tech items, people will
generally only buy them when their old unit breaks down.


"Jeffrey Kaplan" <cspp@gordol.org> wrote in message
news:hcgsb0dbg1f7c7jpgjg532bsfg3simggue@news20.forteinc.com...
> Previously on comp.sys.palmtops.pilot, jonren57 said:
>
> ; I been waiting for Palm OS Cobalt (6) Clie's, but Sony must have been
> ; looking at PalmOne's OS Strategy and realised it a total mess.
> ;
> ; I would not be surprised if Sony ship a Pocket PC handheld soon
>
> If they switch, I'd almost be willing to bet on something with Symbian,
> as that's what they use in their SonyEricsson smartphones.
>
> --
> Jeffrey Kaplan <*> www.gordol.org
> The from userid is killfiled <*> Send personal mail to gordol
>
> "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
> butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
> accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
> give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
> problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
> efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." (Robert A.
> Heinlein)
Anonymous
June 4, 2004 4:42:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Martin wrote:
> I have no problem with people using Macs. I use Windows & Linux primarily
> because they don't need propritory hardware.
> Why don't Apple release a version of the mac OS for the standard PC? Half
> the world would be lining up to try it!

One of Apple's selling points and part of their advertising is basically
that "it just works". Unlike on Windows, you can just write your paper
instead of fiddling with all that stupid driver stuff, etc., etc.

One of the reasons Apple can pull this off (I really do think it's
true that it just works, by the way) is that they control both
the hardware and the software sides. They have fewer devices to
support, and those they do support they can test before they sell.
So you don't have to find out the hard way that driver X doesn't
work with hardware Y, because Apple sold you both of them together
as an already-working unit.

If Apple became a software-only company, then they suddenly lose
this advantage. They have to support every little piece of junk
sound card that came from some podunk company that only made them
for 6 months, every motherboard with buggy chipsets, etc., etc.
It is possible to do so (Linux mostly does it), but it'd be
really amazing if Apple could do it as smoothely as Apple supports
their own stuff.

- Logan
June 4, 2004 12:24:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Logan Shaw wrote:
> Martin wrote:
>> I have no problem with people using Macs. I use Windows & Linux
>> primarily because they don't need propritory hardware.
>> Why don't Apple release a version of the mac OS for the standard PC?
>> Half the world would be lining up to try it!
>
> One of Apple's selling points and part of their advertising is
> basically that "it just works". Unlike on Windows, you can just
> write your paper instead of fiddling with all that stupid driver
> stuff, etc., etc.
>
> One of the reasons Apple can pull this off (I really do think it's
> true that it just works, by the way) is that they control both
> the hardware and the software sides. They have fewer devices to
> support, and those they do support they can test before they sell.
> So you don't have to find out the hard way that driver X doesn't
> work with hardware Y, because Apple sold you both of them together
> as an already-working unit.
>
> If Apple became a software-only company, then they suddenly lose
> this advantage. They have to support every little piece of junk
> sound card that came from some podunk company that only made them
> for 6 months, every motherboard with buggy chipsets, etc., etc.
> It is possible to do so (Linux mostly does it), but it'd be
> really amazing if Apple could do it as smoothely as Apple supports
> their own stuff.
>
> - Logan

Yes, I can't fault your logic.

Regards

Martin
Anonymous
June 5, 2004 11:53:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Jeffrey Kaplan <cspp@gordol.org> wrote in message news:<hcgsb0dbg1f7c7jpgjg532bsfg3simggue@news20.forteinc.com>...
> Previously on comp.sys.palmtops.pilot, jonren57 said:
>
> ; I been waiting for Palm OS Cobalt (6) Clie's, but Sony must have been
> ; looking at PalmOne's OS Strategy and realised it a total mess.
> ;
> ; I would not be surprised if Sony ship a Pocket PC handheld soon
>
> If they switch, I'd almost be willing to bet on something with Symbian,
> as that's what they use in their SonyEricsson smartphones.
>

Sony are extremely unlikely to ship a pocket pc handheld. They'll
concentrate on their SE phones and the PSP, especially the PSP. They
have already indicated they want the PSP to be the future walkman.

But who cares... sony clies were, imo, mediocre products. I mean, they
made some very nice stuff, but always found a way to screw it up with
one tiny but major design problem that spoils it totally.
Anonymous
June 5, 2004 3:31:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

"Logan Shaw" wrote:
>
> One of Apple's selling points and
> part of their advertising is basically
> that "it just works". Unlike on
> Windows, you can just write your
> paper instead of fiddling with all that
> stupid driver stuff, etc., etc.


You're living in the past, Logan. The Mac OS today is no more reliable, or
easy to use, then a modern PC. Before you get all excited, let my finish. I
bought my first Apple product, an Apple II, in 1980 and have owned _at
least_ a dozen Apple computers since, ranging from that early Apple II to a
OS-6.5 Mac Plus to a PowerBook G3 running OS-X. I've written in-store demos
for Apple Inc in Europe, managed an Apple dealership, wrote my own software,
worked as a paid beta tester for several Mac software companies, and written
articles for several Mac magazines. Until recently, every car I've owned
since the early '80's has had an Apple logo on the window. In other words, I
once was one of the biggest Apple fanatics you could easily find.

I'm sitting here today writting this message on a HP computer running
Windows XP Pro. And I've been truly impressed with the reliability of this
hardware and ease of use of this operating system. Installing a program is
as easy as inserting a CD and clicking the okay button. Uninstalling is as
easy as opening the Add/Remove control panel, selecting the program, and
clicking the uninstall button. In other words, both tasks are fairly
painless (no drivers to worry about other than keeping things up-to-date).

Just about every program claiming to be WinXP compatible has installed
without problems and worked without problems. And, as a relatively new PC
user, I've installed and uninstalled a lot of programs just to try them out.
The only exception to all this is Microsoft Plus, which now refuses to
uninstall (it works perfectly - it just will not uninstall now that I don't
want to use it anymore).

The vastness of the software and hardware selection for these machines are
truly amazing. On the Mac, you're lucky to have a single choice when buying
software, even less if it's exotic software. I had several choices for even
the exotic software to program my handheld ham radio (there is nothing like
this for the Mac). And, since I can't decide between two of those programs,
which work perfectly with slightly different features, I ended up keeping
both on my computer. I would have nothing like this on a Macintosh.

And don't think the Mac has the advantage with mainstream software either.
The Microsoft Office suite runs better on this PC than it ever did on any
Mac I've owned. The same with Adobe products. The same with multimedia
applications, including Apple's own Quicktime. And the same with games. Even
a nine year old Win95 version of Apple's venerable AppleWorks runs just fine
on this computer. And I've been able to find good, low cost, alternatives
for many programs also. For example, I once used the relatively low cost
"Color It!" graphics program on the Macintosh. Paint Shop Pro, priced about
the same, has more features and is clearly more polished.

I'm not trying to talk you out of your Macintosh. As a reformed Mac
fanatic, I realise that would be a waste of time. Instead, I just want to
point out that you're repeating a Macintosh myth that just hasn't been true
for several years.


Dwight Stewart
http://www.qsl.net/w5net/
June 5, 2004 7:05:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Dwight Stewart wrote:

> "Logan Shaw" wrote:
>>
>> One of Apple's selling points and
>> part of their advertising is basically
>> that "it just works". Unlike on
>> Windows, you can just write your
>> paper instead of fiddling with all that
>> stupid driver stuff, etc., etc.
>
>
> You're living in the past, Logan. The Mac OS today is no more
> reliable, or
> easy to use, then a modern PC....
> (snippage)
> Dwight Stewart
> http://www.qsl.net/w5net/

No argument about much of what you say, Dwight. You've not addressed
the main arguments against Windows, though. First, Windows continues
to be a virus-magnet, mainly because its architecture makes it an easy
mark. Unix-based system like OSX and Linux are, by design, much less
vulnerable.

Second, there is the "political" factor. Microsoft has always been a
predatory competitor whose tactics, according to many observers, have
gone way over the line of acceptability.

There are other reasons as well, but, since this discussion has veered
off-topic, I'll let it go at that.

-jeff
Anonymous
June 5, 2004 10:34:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Dwight Stewart wrote:

> "Logan Shaw" wrote:
>
>>One of Apple's selling points and
>>part of their advertising is basically
>>that "it just works". Unlike on
>>Windows, you can just write your
>>paper instead of fiddling with all that
>>stupid driver stuff, etc., etc.

> You're living in the past, Logan. The Mac OS today is no more reliable, or
> easy to use, then a modern PC. Before you get all excited, let my finish. I
> bought my first Apple product, an Apple II, in 1980 and have owned _at
> least_ a dozen Apple computers since [ ... ] I
> once was one of the biggest Apple fanatics you could easily find.

Actually as a matter of fact, I don't even own a Macintosh and never
have, although I do have one on loan for work purposes.

But anyway, I'll not dispute that Windows is a zillion times more
reliable than it has been in the past. Often times, things "just work"
in the Windows / PC world too.

Still, I do think Apple has an advantage by being the vendor for both
the hardware and the software, just as Sun Microsystems has the same
advantage on its Unix systems. When one organization designs the
whole system (hardware, operating system, and device drivers), it is
easier to make things work reliably and to have truly good integration.
When you buy an Apple system with Apple software and optional add-on
bits from Apple, you don't have to worry that they will work together,
and you don't have to install the device driver because it is already
installed as part of the OS.

However, these days, the PC manufacturers work so closely with the
hardware companies and with Microsoft that they get some of the same
benefit. When you buy a Dell, no matter which video card you get,
etc., you can be pretty sure it was tested to work with a Dell (if
not manufactured as an OEM version specifically for Dell), and you
can be sure the device driver will be on the pre-loaded OS. So,
although modern PC manufacturers are not doing the single source
for everything thing, they get close.

But where does that leave the original idea of Apple selling a
version of OS X for PC hardware? Well, unless Apple starts
selling cheap PC clones with OS X pre-loaded, they are still in
the position of selling a third-party OS, and they are still not
going to have the advantages of being a single source for
everything. Yes, this sounds like just the same situation Microsoft
is in with Windows, but it is actually qualitatively different.
The major PC makers like Dell in essence have exclusive agreements
with Microsoft. There is a huge amount of industry momentum around
Windows, and the PC makers know they *must* make Windows their
absolute #1 priority if they are to survive. They would not
necessarily feel the same way about OS X. They would probably
treat it just like they do Linux: yes, they'll load Linux on
a machine if you ask, but it's an afterthought, and they offer
this option mainly to say "yeah, we sell Linux too" rather than
because it's their bread and butter.

And then there is the fact that, if you make a new piece of
hardware for the PC world, making it work on Windows is basically
an absolute requirement. Poor support of Windows will kill you.
If you don't support one of the minor operating systems (like
Linux), it might knock off 1% or 5% of your sales, but that's
so not a big deal that you might even blow it off. Apple would
need to deal with the same attitude from hardware vendors, and
Apple doesn't have hoardes of people willing to write open source
drivers for OS X.

On the other other hand, Apple could probably mitigate some of
these problems by partnering with major manufacturers. They
could port OS X to x86 and sell their own x86 systems to run it.
But they could also start a branding / qualification program
where (say) Dell could work with them to earn qualification
status for certain models of machine and thus earn the right
to slap an "Apple Approved" sticker on the front of them and
an "Apple Approved" logo on the web site when you order the PC
online. Apple has a good enough reputation that they can bank
on their name to some extent, and that might allow them the
opportunity to partner with big PC manufacturers.

Of course it would also help if this hypothetical OS X for x86
would run all DirectX games and most other Windows software as
well. It might as well, if it's going to run on x86 hardware,
because then it becomes *really* attractive to people who might
otherwise use Windows.

Naturally, Apple will never do this, so it does not matter, but
it's fun to think about...

- Logan
Anonymous
June 6, 2004 5:16:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

"Logan Shaw" wrote:
>
> Still, I do think Apple has an advantage
> by being the vendor for both the
> hardware and the software, (snip)


See my previous message to Jeff for why that might also be a disadvantage
for the typical user.


> (snip) But where does that leave the original
> idea of Apple selling a version of OS X
> for PC hardware? (snip)


I seriously doubt Apple will ever again sell the operating system
separately. As you may remember, they tried that a few years ago and it
immediately resulted in several companies selling computers directly
competing with Apple's in the same markets. As Apple's computer sales
declined, with no significant profits from operating system sales to yet
replace that, Apple quickly pulled the plug on the entire idea. Hardware
sales are simply too profitable for Apple to just walk away from. As a
result, it would take something very dramatic to force them to do so.


Dwight Stewart
http://www.qsl.net/w5net/
Anonymous
June 7, 2004 10:02:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

In article <oOEwc.15258$Yd3.3285@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
"Dwight Stewart" <stewartx@NOearthlinkSPAM.net> wrote:

> "Logan Shaw" wrote:

> > (snip) But where does that leave the original
> > idea of Apple selling a version of OS X
> > for PC hardware? (snip)

You mean, "original rumor" ...
Anonymous
June 7, 2004 11:40:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Guy Bannis wrote:

> In article <oOEwc.15258$Yd3.3285@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
> "Dwight Stewart" <stewartx@NOearthlinkSPAM.net> wrote:

>>"Logan Shaw" wrote:

>>>(snip) But where does that leave the original
>>>idea of Apple selling a version of OS X
>>>for PC hardware? (snip)

> You mean, "original rumor" ...

Actually, I mean original idea because, back when I worked at Taligent[1],
they had an x86 port of the Taligent environment. IIRC, they weren't
sure if they were ever going to release it, but they want to have it
around just in case.

Anyway, Taligent isn't OS X, and in fact OS X is based on NeXT technology,
which was the bitter rival technology of Taligent. But, the point is
that the idea of having an x86 port of the Mac operating system (or
"a" Mac operating system, since there have been several, really) has
been around for at least 10 years.

- Logan

[1] Remember Taligent? It was supposed to be the successor of Mac OS.
It never happened, but Apple took it seriously enough that they
forbade regular Apple engineers from adding certain features to
regular Mac OS for fear of stealing Taligent's thunder. This made
the Apple engineers really mad...
Anonymous
June 8, 2004 12:36:55 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

In article <ww3xc.69782$lY2.47126@fe1.texas.rr.com>, Logan Shaw
<lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote:

> Guy Bannis wrote:
>
> > In article <oOEwc.15258$Yd3.3285@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
> > "Dwight Stewart" <stewartx@NOearthlinkSPAM.net> wrote:
>
> >>"Logan Shaw" wrote:
>
> >>>(snip) But where does that leave the original
> >>>idea of Apple selling a version of OS X
> >>>for PC hardware? (snip)
>
> > You mean, "original rumor" ...
>
> Actually, I mean original idea because, back when I worked at Taligent[1],
> they had an x86 port of the Taligent environment. IIRC, they weren't
> sure if they were ever going to release it, but they want to have it
> around just in case.
>
> Anyway, Taligent isn't OS X, and in fact OS X is based on NeXT technology,
> which was the bitter rival technology of Taligent. But, the point is
> that the idea of having an x86 port of the Mac operating system (or
> "a" Mac operating system, since there have been several, really) has
> been around for at least 10 years.
>
> - Logan

Got it. "Original idea" makes it sound, to me, like it was Apple's idea
rather than other people's idea for Apple.
Anonymous
June 8, 2004 3:23:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Guy Bannis wrote:
> Got it. "Original idea" makes it sound, to me, like it was Apple's idea
> rather than other people's idea for Apple.

Oh, heh, by "original idea" I just meant "idea we were originally
talking about in this thread". :-)

- Logan
Anonymous
June 8, 2004 3:23:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.palmtops.pilot,uk.comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

Logan Shaw rose quietly and spake the following:

> Guy Bannis wrote:
>> Got it. "Original idea" makes it sound, to me, like it was Apple's idea
>> rather than other people's idea for Apple.
>
> Oh, heh, by "original idea" I just meant "idea we were originally
> talking about in this thread". :-)

Here's irony for you. The original idea of this thread is about Sony
backing out of the PDA business in the U.S.

I got my copy of Consumer Reports today. They reviewed Palm and MS
handhelds. They gave high marks and glowing reviews to the Sony units.

--
Derek

Ever wonder why people are so determined to reach for white picket fences,
supposed normalcy, a nuclear family? Well, try growing up without one.
(Chuck Eddy)

This epigram brought to you by the letter "W" and by the number "4".
!