Archival quality CD-R ?

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

kodak has quit producing cdr's

try

Mitsui' or Taiyo Yuden
< http://www.disk-o-tape.com/ >

dale long run audio

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <MNCdnYG7JYqyEyXcRVn-uA@comcast.com> nowhere@nowhere.com writes:

> I can't find a vendor for either the Kodak Ultimas or the Verbatim Datalife
> Plus, both of which have dye chemistries and other design features for long
> archival life.

How current is that information? If it's from the days when you could
leave a CD-R in the sun and have it fail in a week, well, they're
making them all different now.

> Are there any other similar products? The market seems to have turned to
> high-speed media, durability be damned.

Durability may no longer be the problem it was with some of the older
dies. But nobody wants to bet on it.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1102616307k@trad...
>
> In article <MNCdnYG7JYqyEyXcRVn-uA@comcast.com> nowhere@nowhere.com
writes:
>
> > I can't find a vendor for either the Kodak Ultimas or the Verbatim
Datalife
> > Plus, both of which have dye chemistries and other design features for
long
> > archival life.
>
> How current is that information? If it's from the days when you could
> leave a CD-R in the sun and have it fail in a week, well, they're
> making them all different now.
>
> > Are there any other similar products? The market seems to have turned to
> > high-speed media, durability be damned.
>
> Durability may no longer be the problem it was with some of the older
> dies. But nobody wants to bet on it.
>
The Verbatims used azo-dyes. This is not currently advertised by anyone. Azo
dyes are much more resistant to fading because they incorporate a metal
anion that stabilizes the dye.

I don't know what kind of dye Kodak's Ultima series used, but it was alleged
to be different and superior.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>> Does anybody in here know if they actually made them themselves or
outsourced them?

they made them.

>>>"design features for long archival life."

good place to get started on some of the issues archivist are facing.
< http://www.mrichter.com/cdr/primer/primer.htm >

here is the national institute of standards and technology care of cds

< http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/carefordisc/index.html >

matsui
" Since the laser which records the data burns the dye, it is a key
aspect of the technology required to manufacture a high-quality CD-R.
Indeed, One of MAM's greatest strength lies in its use of the patented
Phthalocyanine, the best organic dye currently available.
A CD-R contains :
a polycarbonate layer
a coloring layer (azo or cyanine or Phthalocyanine)
a reflective layer (gold or silver)
a protective resin layer
a Diamond protective layer exclusive to MAM
< http://www.mitsuicdr.com/products/general_information.h... >

dale

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Robert Morein" <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:9_6dnd_Xe9B7eSXcRVn-3Q@comcast.com...
>
> "Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
> news:znr1102616307k@trad...
>>
>> In article <MNCdnYG7JYqyEyXcRVn-uA@comcast.com> nowhere@nowhere.com
> writes:
>>
>> > I can't find a vendor for either the Kodak Ultimas or the Verbatim
> Datalife
>> > Plus, both of which have dye chemistries and other design features for
> long
>> > archival life.
>>
>> How current is that information? If it's from the days when you could
>> leave a CD-R in the sun and have it fail in a week, well, they're
>> making them all different now.
>>
>> > Are there any other similar products? The market seems to have turned
>> > to
>> > high-speed media, durability be damned.
>>
>> Durability may no longer be the problem it was with some of the older
>> dies. But nobody wants to bet on it.
>>
> The Verbatims used azo-dyes. This is not currently advertised by anyone.
> Azo
> dyes are much more resistant to fading because they incorporate a metal
> anion that stabilizes the dye.
>
> I don't know what kind of dye Kodak's Ultima series used, but it was
> alleged
> to be different and superior.
>
>
You might still find a few scattered here and there on the web, but they are
getting hard to find.
I bought up a bunch of them when Kodak announced they were getting out of
the biz. Does anybody
in here know if they actually made them themselves or outsourced them?

dave

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Robert Morein wrote:
> I can't find a vendor for either the Kodak Ultimas or the Verbatim Datalife
> Plus, both of which have dye chemistries and other design features for long
> archival life.

<http://hhb.co.uk/hhb/uk/hhbproducts/media/index.asp&gt; for example.

Johann
--
ES GIBT DEN WIN OIPTIMIZER VON ASHAMPOOO
UND DER MACHTB NICHTS WEG WAS MAN NICHT WEG MACHEN WILL-
DAS IST DOCH GUT oder?!
(Wolfram Kopp in <cb270r$do5$07$1@news.t-online.com>)

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Taiyo Yuden





Robert Morein <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:MNCdnYG7JYqyEyXcRVn-uA@comcast.com...
> I can't find a vendor for either the Kodak Ultimas or the Verbatim
Datalife
> Plus, both of which have dye chemistries and other design features for
long
> archival life.
>
> Are there any other similar products? The market seems to have turned to
> high-speed media, durability be damned.
>
>

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Robert Morein <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>The Verbatims used azo-dyes. This is not currently advertised by anyone. Azo
>dyes are much more resistant to fading because they incorporate a metal
>anion that stabilizes the dye.

They also were more difficult to write and often resulted in higher error
rates because of the better stability. I think the reason you do not see
any of the azo types today is because of the difficulty of writing at high
speeds.

>I don't know what kind of dye Kodak's Ultima series used, but it was alleged
>to be different and superior.

EVERYBODY alleges their dye formulation to be different and superior. That
is the problem.

And after the whole fiasco with backcoated mastering tapes (which were supposed
to outlast the older tape formulations), I don't trust accelerated aging
tests at all anyway.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

There is a new NIST report which is a product of an NIST CD and DVD
recorable disc test in collaboration with the Library of Congress. It
discusses dyes, reflective surfaces and variations in storage
conditions.

Conclusion: The gold/silver CD discs using phthalocyanine dyes were
consistantly more stable than the others. Though not mentioned by
name, the Mistui Gold was the only such disc on the US market during
this study, though Tayo-Yuden was phasing out its own such product. "It
is demonstrated here that CD-R and DVD-R media can be bery stable...
these media types will ensure data is availble for several tends of
years and therefore may be suitable for archival use.

The 8 page study appears in the Journal of Research of the National
Institute of Standards and Technologt, Vol. 109 no. 5, Sept-Oct, 2004.
dale

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

here is the link to the web page to down load the article (PDF File)
654 kb

Stability Comparison of Recordable Optical Discs--A Study of Error
Rates in Harsh Conditions
Oliver Slattery, Richang Lu, Jian Zheng, Fred Byers, and Xiao Tang
< http://nvl.nist.gov/pub/nistpubs/jres/current.htm >


dale

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Robert Morein wrote:
>
> I can't find a vendor for either the Kodak Ultimas or the Verbatim Datalife
> Plus, both of which have dye chemistries and other design features for long
> archival life.
>
> Are there any other similar products? The market seems to have turned to
> high-speed media, durability be damned.

Kodak bought their dye from Mitsui but made the discs themselves. Mitsui
still make discs but all the information that I've seen points to their
current discs being far inferior to those they made 2-3 years ago. Error
rates on current Mitsui discs are 10 times worse than those on current
Taiyo Yuden discs and 20 times worse than their older discs.
Unfortunately HHB discs are made by Mitsui and seem to suffer from the
same problems as the current Mitsui discs.

This means that there are no trustworthy contenders in the archival CD-R
market at the moment. Probably the best discs are made by Taiyo Yuden
who claim an 80 year lifespan (as opposed to the 100-200 year lifespan
claimed by Mitsui).

I have also seen the more expensive Verbatim discs recommended but I
have no personal experience of them

Cheers.

James.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Johann Burkard wrote:
>
> Robert Morein wrote:
> > I can't find a vendor for either the Kodak Ultimas or the Verbatim Datalife
> > Plus, both of which have dye chemistries and other design features for long
> > archival life.
>
> <http://hhb.co.uk/hhb/uk/hhbproducts/media/index.asp&gt; for example.
>

They're made by Mitsui and the current crop of Mitsui discs are showing
very poor error rate performance.

Cheers.

James.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Dave wrote:


> >
> > I don't know what kind of dye Kodak's Ultima series used, but it was
> > alleged
> > to be different and superior.
> >
> >
> You might still find a few scattered here and there on the web, but they are
> getting hard to find.
> I bought up a bunch of them when Kodak announced they were getting out of
> the biz. Does anybody
> in here know if they actually made them themselves or outsourced them?

Kodak bought their dye from Mitsui and recommended that their users buy
Mitsui discs when Kodak stopped manufacture. Unfortunately, current
Mitsui discs are very different to those around 2-3 years ago.

Cheers.

James.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"James Perrett" <James.R.Perrett@soc.soton.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:41B9C2D2.58B44210@soc.soton.ac.uk...
> Johann Burkard wrote:
>>
>> Robert Morein wrote:
>> > I can't find a vendor for either the Kodak Ultimas or the Verbatim
>> > Datalife
>> > Plus, both of which have dye chemistries and other design features for
>> > long
>> > archival life.
>>
>> <http://hhb.co.uk/hhb/uk/hhbproducts/media/index.asp&gt; for example.
>>
>
> They're made by Mitsui and the current crop of Mitsui discs are showing
> very poor error rate performance.

On what writer ?On one person who did a test's particular writer, or
across a spectrum of different writers ?

geoff

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"dale" <dallen@frognet.net> wrote in message
news:1102716519.871718.30500@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> here is the link to the web page to down load the article (PDF File)
> 654 kb
>
> Stability Comparison of Recordable Optical Discs--A Study of Error
> Rates in Harsh Conditions
> Oliver Slattery, Richang Lu, Jian Zheng, Fred Byers, and Xiao Tang
> < http://nvl.nist.gov/pub/nistpubs/jres/current.htm >
>


For day-to-day latest CD media, hardware and software gossip and news,
www.cdfreaks.com is probably the best website.

geoff

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <RRpud.14503$3U4.367168@news02.tsnz.net> geoff@nospam-paf.co.nz writes:

> For day-to-day latest CD media, hardware and software gossip and news,
> www.cdfreaks.com is probably the best website.

When it comes to archival media, day-to-day latest gossip is kind of
freaky. I want to read what was good 5 years ago that's still
available today. Unfortunately the industry doesn't work that way.
This is why we need to keep analog tape alive.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"we need to keep analog tape alive."

it seems that shellac 78's have a better shelf life.
no sticky shed, failed binders, need to bake, bad eq and bias, mis
aligned heads.



dale

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1102763865.534440.38140@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> dallen@frognet.net writes:

> "we need to keep analog tape alive."
>
> it seems that shellac 78's have a better shelf life.
> no sticky shed, failed binders, need to bake, bad eq and bias, mis
> aligned heads.

This also has the advantage of eliminating any possibility of direct
digital cloning, so the original copyright owner won't be so badly
ripped off by future generations.

For digital recordings, perhaps we should use punch cards. But
you have to keep them dry and away from fire.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cpcbp6$mvk$1@panix2.panix.com...
> They also were more difficult to write and often resulted in higher error
> rates because of the better stability. I think the reason you do not see
> any of the azo types today is because of the difficulty of writing at high
> speeds.

High speed Verbatim/Mistsubishi AZO disks are readlily available here. I
haven't had any problems with high error rates.

> EVERYBODY alleges their dye formulation to be different and superior.
That
> is the problem.

Nobody's going to say their's is inferior are they :-)


TonyP.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 11 Dec 2004 03:17:45 -0800, "dale" <dallen@frognet.net> wrote:

>it seems that shellac 78's have a better shelf life.
>no sticky shed, failed binders, need to bake, bad eq and bias, mis
>aligned heads. <snip>

I believe it was the Library of Congress which stated the vinyl LPs
are, strangely enough, turning out to be the most durable archival
storage medium for music recordings. The LPs in my personal
collection dating back to 1948 seem to bear this out.

dB

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Geoff Wood wrote:
>
> "James Perrett" <James.R.Perrett@soc.soton.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:41B9C2D2.58B44210@soc.soton.ac.uk...
> > Johann Burkard wrote:
> >>
> >> Robert Morein wrote:
> >> > I can't find a vendor for either the Kodak Ultimas or the Verbatim
> >> > Datalife
> >> > Plus, both of which have dye chemistries and other design features for
> >> > long
> >> > archival life.
> >>
> >> <http://hhb.co.uk/hhb/uk/hhbproducts/media/index.asp&gt; for example.
> >>
> >
> > They're made by Mitsui and the current crop of Mitsui discs are showing
> > very poor error rate performance.
>
> On what writer ?On one person who did a test's particular writer, or
> across a spectrum of different writers ?

There's a thread on the mastering web board about this where one guy did
a series of recent tests on a Plextor Premium at different speeds. I've
also heard other people talk about the problems with recent Mitsui discs
and had private discussions with other mastering people.

Cheers.

James.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"LONGEVITY OF CD MEDIA: RESEARCH AT THE
LIBRARY OF CONGRESS" :

< Vmv2WvjfCYJ" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=cache Vm...
:www.loc.gov/preserv/study%2520of%2520CD%2520longevity.p...;
dale