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advice on mic preamp usage

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Anonymous
December 9, 2004 12:49:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hi there - I just bought an ART Tube MP mic preamp.

It has both jack and XLR output plugs. By desk can take both. Does the
resulting sound quality depend on whether I use a jack or XLR plug?
Thanks
Paul
Anonymous
December 9, 2004 3:55:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

paul m <matthpau@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Hi there - I just bought an ART Tube MP mic preamp.
>
>It has both jack and XLR output plugs. By desk can take both. Does the
>resulting sound quality depend on whether I use a jack or XLR plug?

No, it'll be just as bad no matter which one you use.

BUT, why do you want to plug it into the input of the mike preamp on your
console? At the very least put it into the insert so you are bypassing
the console preamp.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
December 9, 2004 9:02:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1102614544.200004.184850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> matthpau@hotmail.com writes:

> Hi there - I just bought an ART Tube MP mic preamp.
>
> It has both jack and XLR output plugs. By desk can take both. Does the
> resulting sound quality depend on whether I use a jack or XLR plug?

Yes. If the XLR connectors on your mixer are for mics and the 1/4"
jacks are for line inputs (which I suspect is the case for whatever
unnamed mixer you have, since you seem to be excited about improving
it with an ART preamp) it will be overdriven and distort badly if you
connect it to the XLR inputs. Use the "jacks."

This almost certainly will pass the signal through the unnamed mixer's
mic preamp circuitry (most all of them are built like this) but at
least the mic will be connected to the ART instead of the mixer, for
better or worse.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Related resources
Anonymous
December 9, 2004 9:08:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"paul m" <matthpau@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1102614544.200004.184850@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Hi there - I just bought an ART Tube MP mic preamp.
>
> It has both jack and XLR output plugs. By desk can take both. Does the
> resulting sound quality depend on whether I use a jack or XLR plug?

No. And what sound quality you get out of the ART preamp will be maximized
by running it into the recorder directly.

Peace,
Paul
Anonymous
December 10, 2004 4:24:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Thanks for the responses. I should clarify - I am using a Tascam US
428, which can take both line level and XLR mike inputs. Therefore I
should be able to get around the internal amp issue, no problem.

So it sounds like the jack is the way to go, thanks eveyone.
Cheers
Paul
Anonymous
December 10, 2004 8:19:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"paul m" <matthpau@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1102670646.731776.15820@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com

> Thanks for the responses. I should clarify - I am using a Tascam US
> 428, which can take both line level and XLR mike inputs. Therefore I
> should be able to get around the internal amp issue, no problem.
>
> So it sounds like the jack is the way to go, thanks eveyone.

What you're missing is the fact that in most inexpensive mixers, the line
input is attenuated to avoid problems with overloading, and then passed
though the mixer's mic preamp. You end up putting the music through two mic
preamps in a row. It's pretty easy to make the sound dirtier this way, but
its pretty hard to make it cleaner.
Anonymous
December 10, 2004 12:23:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1102670646.731776.15820@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> matthpau@hotmail.com writes:

> Thanks for the responses. I should clarify - I am using a Tascam US
> 428, which can take both line level and XLR mike inputs. Therefore I
> should be able to get around the internal amp issue, no problem.

Actually, you can't - it's part of the internal wiring, at least on
the A and B inputs. I'm not sure about the C and D inputs. I didn't
study the manual for you, but you can check that. It may be that the C
and D inputs have less electronics in the signal path so, even though
they're unbalanced, will affect the output of your external preamp
less than the A/B inputs which have mic preamps.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
December 10, 2004 1:04:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Arny Krueger <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote:
>"paul m" <matthpau@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1102670646.731776.15820@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
>
>> Thanks for the responses. I should clarify - I am using a Tascam US
>> 428, which can take both line level and XLR mike inputs. Therefore I
>> should be able to get around the internal amp issue, no problem.
>>
>> So it sounds like the jack is the way to go, thanks eveyone.
>
>What you're missing is the fact that in most inexpensive mixers, the line
>input is attenuated to avoid problems with overloading, and then passed
>though the mixer's mic preamp. You end up putting the music through two mic
>preamps in a row. It's pretty easy to make the sound dirtier this way, but
>its pretty hard to make it cleaner.

With the ART, it won't be any cleaner anyway. The coloration of the ART
is very exaggerated and cartoonish and is certainly going to dwarf whatever
coloration the console preamps have.

Not that it's generally a good policy to go through two preamp stages, but
it's better to think of the ART as an effects box rather than a preamp.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
December 10, 2004 3:55:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

paul m wrote:

> Thanks for the responses. I should clarify - I am using a Tascam US
> 428, which can take both line level and XLR mike inputs.

Actually - just about any mixer better than something out of radio Shack
can " take both line level and XLR mike inputs " !

> Therefore I should be able to get around the internal amp issue, no
> problem.

No you can't. Every sub $2k ( probably more ) mixer that I can think of
has line inputs that are simply attenuated and passed through the very
same mic amp you think you're avoiding !

You pay more for *genuine* line inputs.

> So it sounds like the jack is the way to go, thanks eveyone.

Not necessarily. You can have line inputs on XLRs too.


Simple question.

Does the 'trim' control affect both the mic ( XLR ) gain and the line (
1/4" ) gain ?
If so then the line input uses the mic pre.

With a toy like the US-428 there is no simple solution it seems.


Graham
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 2:30:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41B99CBF.525F7D42@hotmail.com...
>
>
> paul m wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the responses. I should clarify - I am using a Tascam US
> > 428, which can take both line level and XLR mike inputs.
>
> Actually - just about any mixer better than something out of radio Shack
> can " take both line level and XLR mike inputs " !
>
> > Therefore I should be able to get around the internal amp issue, no
> > problem.
>
> No you can't. Every sub $2k ( probably more ) mixer that I can think of
> has line inputs that are simply attenuated and passed through the very
> same mic amp you think you're avoiding !
>
> You pay more for *genuine* line inputs.
>
> > So it sounds like the jack is the way to go, thanks eveyone.
>
> Not necessarily. You can have line inputs on XLRs too.
>
>
> Simple question.
>
> Does the 'trim' control affect both the mic ( XLR ) gain and the line (
> 1/4" ) gain ?
> If so then the line input uses the mic pre.
>
> With a toy like the US-428 there is no simple solution it seems.
>
>
> Graham
>

I don't know that Tascam unit but are there 'tape' inputs and outputs? If
there are I'd try the tape ins to see if that sounds better or not. ( the
routing may not work out for you though )

Best of luck!

John L Rice
Drummer@ImJohn.com
Anonymous
December 15, 2004 1:38:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

No, no tape ins. I'm just going to battle on with the Line inputs,even
though they probably hit an internal preamp as well.
Anonymous
December 26, 2004 1:55:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I suggest returning it and buying something better. Usually dynamic
mics use a 1/4" jack and condensors use an XLR. You can easily convert
1/4" to XLR. They both sound pretty much the same. Why not spend a
little more and get a decent Behringer or Mackie mixer with built in
preamps?
Anonymous
December 26, 2004 2:04:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I suggest returning it and buying something better. Usually dynamic
mics use a 1/4" jack and condensors use an XLR. You can easily convert
1/4" to XLR. They both sound pretty much the same. Why not spend a
little more and get a decent Behringer or Mackie mixer with built in
preamps?
Anonymous
December 26, 2004 1:28:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"www.HassanAnsari.com - Teen Prodigy" <AbnoticCo@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1104044115.590668.277790@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

> Usually dynamic mics use a 1/4" jack and condensors use an XLR.

Not true.

Hal Laurent
Baltimore
Anonymous
December 26, 2004 1:38:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

www.HassanAnsari.com - Teen Prodigy wrote:

> I suggest returning it and buying something better. Usually dynamic
> mics use a 1/4" jack and condensors use an XLR.

?? News to me.

> Why not spend a
> little more and get a decent Behringer or Mackie mixer with built in
> preamps?

Umm, a decent Behringer? Which one might that be?
Anonymous
December 26, 2004 4:07:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1104044115.590668.277790@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> AbnoticCo@aol.com writes:

> I suggest returning it and buying something better. Usually dynamic
> mics use a 1/4" jack and condensors use an XLR.

Not since about 1930, in fact probably not even then since I think the
XLR was invented later than that. This is a totally incorrect
generalization. In fact, there are plenty of mics (admittedly not
studio mics) that have condenser elements and mini phone phone plugs,
and of course many dynamic mics spanning the wide range of
"professional" that have XLR connectors.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
December 26, 2004 10:08:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

www.HassanAnsari.com - Teen Prodigy <AbnoticCo@aol.com> wrote:

> I suggest returning it and buying something better. Usually dynamic
> mics use a 1/4" jack and condensors use an XLR.

Just sitting on your neck this morning or what? If that's what you think
you know, just keep quiet.

> You can easily convert
> 1/4" to XLR. They both sound pretty much the same.

They don't "sound" at all.

> Why not spend a
> little more and get a decent Behringer or Mackie mixer with built in
> preamps?

Why not rent a brain for the day?

--
ha
Anonymous
December 26, 2004 10:08:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

www.HassanAnsari.com - Teen Prodigy <AbnoticCo@aol.com> wrote:

> I suggest returning it and buying something better. Usually dynamic
> mics use a 1/4" jack and condensors use an XLR. You can easily convert
> 1/4" to XLR. They both sound pretty much the same. Why not spend a
> little more and get a decent Behringer or Mackie mixer with built in
> preamps?

To post this stupidity twice demonstrates a severe lack of cranial
matter other than stale cheese.

--
ha
December 27, 2004 5:05:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> I suggest returning it and buying something better. Usually dynamic
> mics use a 1/4" jack and condensors use an XLR.

No, usually ALL mics have XLR outs. You can use any mic cable you want
to with either mic.

> You can easily convert
> 1/4" to XLR.

Yeah, just swap the radio shack mic cable with a professional one.

> They both sound pretty much the same.

Why would the connector on the end of the cable change the sound of the
mic?

> Why not spend a
> little more and get a decent Behringer or Mackie mixer with built in
> preamps?

Why not spend even more and buy an existing professional recording studio?
December 27, 2004 5:10:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> I suggest returning it and buying something better. Usually dynamic
> mics use a 1/4" jack and condensors use an XLR.

And you can only use windscreens on dynamic mics, and never on condenser
mics. Only dynamic mics can record bird sounds, while condensers are
the only mics that will record the frequencies of the human voice.

> You can easily convert
> 1/4" to XLR.

Actually, that would be physically impossible to do.

> They both sound pretty much the same.

No. XLRs have more high end, and 1/4 have more low end.

> Why not spend a
> little more and get a decent Behringer or Mackie mixer with built in
> preamps?

Best to get them without the preamps, and spend more to buy preamps.
Anonymous
December 27, 2004 2:40:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 25 Dec 2004 23:04:19 -0800, "www.HassanAnsari.com - Teen Prodigy"
<AbnoticCo@aol.com> wrote:

>Usually dynamic
>mics use a 1/4" jack and condensors use an XLR.

Where did you get that idea?

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
Anonymous
December 27, 2004 5:49:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>
>I suggest returning it and buying something better. Usually dynamic
>mics use a 1/4" jack and condensors use an XLR. You can easily convert
>1/4" to XLR. They both sound pretty much the same. Why not spend a
>little more and get a decent Behringer or Mackie mixer with built in
>preamps?
>
>

Anybody notice how we seem to get this nonsense during Christmas and Spring
Break?
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty
Anonymous
December 28, 2004 10:21:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 2004-12-27, Richard Kuschel <rickpv8945@aol.com> wrote:

> Anybody notice how we seem to get this nonsense during Christmas and Spring
> Break?

Well, at least in this case, part of the argument is sound. There's
nothing wrong with a Behringer or Mackie mixer, and if you're beyond
the capabilities of one of those, you'll be spending quite a bit more
money before you do much better.

Between the few-hundred-dollar prosumer preamps and the
thousand-dollar-and-up preamps, it is largely a matter of opinion
as to the relative merits of the various products.
Anonymous
December 29, 2004 4:14:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

james of tucson <fishbowl@radagast.home.conservatory.com> wrote:

> Between the few-hundred-dollar prosumer preamps and the
> thousand-dollar-and-up preamps, it is largely a matter of opinion
> as to the relative merits of the various products.

Until one uses them across a wide variety of sources in a broad range of
environments in situations where one's livlihood is one the line. Then
the relative merits of the higher grade kit become obvious, just like
the differences between some consumer chainsaw and a pro saw become
obvious when the timber gets large and one will spend all day falling
it.

As for nothing being wrong with Mackie and Behringer mixers, that dpends
laregely one one's value for "wrong". Note that Tonebarge uses neither
the preamps nor the EQ's in his Mackie. There might be a reason for
that. I appreciate my little 1202 and it has paid for itself many times
over, but satisfactory performance depends on gain staging that could
well be called peculiar vis a vis more capable mixers. And lots of
"prosumers" have even less concept of gain staging than they have budget
for recording gear.

There seems to exist in the hopeful mind of the "prosumer"* a desire to
pretend that whatever cheap stuff has been purchased is fully equivalent
to the finest gear. In this case ignorance does not often result in
bliss; it often results in the desire to throw more money at more cheap
gear hoping that this time the advertising claims are true.


* A bullshit marketing term designed to help folks throw away money in
their "professional bedroom", overlooking that the acoustical
environment in which one records could be a very important factor in
one's results, and that fine environments most often cost pretty serious
money.


--
ha
Anonymous
December 29, 2004 8:44:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Doesn't take much to get you lot going.

This one is good - and spot on the money. I'm a home hacker for whom
the US 428 is a dream - mic, line, 2 x midi in out etc all in a cheap
box. I'll probably record 4 songs this year with my mate John just for
fun. No need for me to spend any more money than really necessasry.
Cheers all
Paul
Anonymous
December 29, 2004 10:14:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 2004-12-29, hank alrich <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote:

> Until one uses them across a wide variety of sources in a broad range of
> environments in situations where one's livlihood is one the line. Then
> the relative merits of the higher grade kit become obvious, just like
> the differences between some consumer chainsaw and a pro saw become
> obvious when the timber gets large and one will spend all day falling
> it.

I can just see the discussion on alt.lumberjack.chainsaws :-)


> * A bullshit marketing term designed to help folks throw away money in
> their "professional bedroom", overlooking that the acoustical
> environment in which one records could be a very important factor in
> one's results, and that fine environments most often cost pretty serious
> money.

Well, the alternative for some is the choice between making music or not
making music.

I'm a sufficiently experienced musician to appreciate the difference
between a fine piano and an average piano. But do I give up playing
because I can't afford a Bechstein? Would I suggest to anyone that it
is necessary to spend a huge fortune to get started playing? NO! I'd
tell them there isn't all that much difference between a $7,000 piano
and a $15,000 piano, find something you can live with and go for it.
Sooner or later your playing will reach a level where you seriously
start to consider that $34,000 Yamaha or that $80,000 Bosendorfer.

My point was, there isn't much difference between $100 and $150 preamps.

Should I just let my land go all to hell because I can't afford a Stihl?
!