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allen & heath flaky inserts

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Anonymous
December 11, 2004 3:23:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hey everyone,

At my church we have an Allen & Heath GL2200 series mixer which is
about 6 or 7 years old, and several months ago, we had a TRS channel
insert go flaky, to the point where we were hearing crackling and
losing signal on that channel. Things being how they are at churches,
it hasn't gotten repaired yet. So then last weekend, I was the one
running sound and noticed I was having problems with another channel
also cutting out, at which point I moved the mic to a third channel,
which it turns out ALSO had problems cutting out. So I moved to
a fourth channel, and everything is fine with it.

So, the upshot is, we have THREE channels out of 32 all experiencing
the some problem with the TRS insert. Some of them are flaky only
when something is plugged in, and in at least one, the channel is
flaky even when nothing is plugged in, i.e. if nothing is plugged
into the insert, you get no sound, but if you then plug something
in and remove it, there is sound, although it may go away again.

My question is: what could be causing all these failures, and what
can be done about it? We could replace the circuit boards for just
the channels that have already failed, but since so many have failed,
I'd like to prevent future failures if possible. But, we can't
replace every channel! Do I just need to get in there with some
kind of contact cleaner or something along those lines? (If so,
what kind, and how?)

I should mention that the mixer took some smoke damage from a fire
a couple of years ago. The insurance company paid to have some
company (I wasn't involved) take everything apart and clean it all
with (I believe) presurized deionized water. So, that could be
related but since it's seems to be ONLY affecting the inserts and
none of the other jacks, switches, etc., it seems a little odd
that it would only affect the one thing.

- Logan
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 3:23:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:S5rud.7424$2e.4579@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> Hey everyone,
>
> At my church we have an Allen & Heath GL2200 series mixer which is
> about 6 or 7 years old, and several months ago, we had a TRS channel
> insert go flaky, to the point where we were hearing crackling and
> losing signal on that channel. Things being how they are at churches,
> it hasn't gotten repaired yet. So then last weekend, I was the one
> running sound and noticed I was having problems with another channel
> also cutting out, at which point I moved the mic to a third channel,
> which it turns out ALSO had problems cutting out. So I moved to
> a fourth channel, and everything is fine with it.
>
> So, the upshot is, we have THREE channels out of 32 all experiencing
> the some problem with the TRS insert. Some of them are flaky only
> when something is plugged in, and in at least one, the channel is
> flaky even when nothing is plugged in, i.e. if nothing is plugged
> into the insert, you get no sound, but if you then plug something
> in and remove it, there is sound, although it may go away again.
>

spray the TRS jack with a contact cleaner (like caig de-oxit)

insert and remove a plug a few times.

sometimes following up with pressurized air helps blow away the crud

if problem remains the jack may have to be resoldered or replaced.

IF inserts are never used in your operation a simple jumper soldered inside
may be a permanent long term fix.

if you don't care to have "qualified personnel" take care of it you can make
a "dummy plug". solder the tip and ring of a TRS plus together and stick it
in the jack and leave it there.
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 1:19:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Logan Shaw <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>So, the upshot is, we have THREE channels out of 32 all experiencing
>the some problem with the TRS insert. Some of them are flaky only
>when something is plugged in, and in at least one, the channel is
>flaky even when nothing is plugged in, i.e. if nothing is plugged
>into the insert, you get no sound, but if you then plug something
>in and remove it, there is sound, although it may go away again.

The switch in the jack is going bad. You can try squirting it with
a little Cramolin and see if it cleans up.

>My question is: what could be causing all these failures, and what
>can be done about it? We could replace the circuit boards for just
>the channels that have already failed, but since so many have failed,
>I'd like to prevent future failures if possible. But, we can't
>replace every channel! Do I just need to get in there with some
>kind of contact cleaner or something along those lines? (If so,
>what kind, and how?)

Contact cleaner would be a start, if the problem is the contact getting
dirty. If the spring is going bad, you can try bending it back into place
but the real solution would be to replace the jacks with more reliable
ones.

For the most part, short frame jacks are not intended for constant plugging
and unplugging, and if you do a lot of repatching they will fail. You can
probably get more reliable jacks, or you can extend all the inserts out to
a patchbay with long-frame jacks that are more reliable under that sort of
service.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Anonymous
December 11, 2004 2:23:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

The jack sockets may have dry joints where they are soldered onto the pcb.
If this is the case you need to resolder every insert socket now.

Or it could just be the jack sockets themselves are dirty or of poor
quality. If this is the case and cleaning with switch cleaner isn't
reliable, you could buy a bunch of stereo jacks, solder the tips to the
rings and insert them in every insert socket. This will bypass the built in
switches that so often get dirty and cause trouble.

Gareth.



"Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:S5rud.7424$2e.4579@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> Hey everyone,
>
> At my church we have an Allen & Heath GL2200 series mixer which is
> about 6 or 7 years old, and several months ago, we had a TRS channel
> insert go flaky, to the point where we were hearing crackling and
> losing signal on that channel. Things being how they are at churches,
> it hasn't gotten repaired yet. So then last weekend, I was the one
> running sound and noticed I was having problems with another channel
> also cutting out, at which point I moved the mic to a third channel,
> which it turns out ALSO had problems cutting out. So I moved to
> a fourth channel, and everything is fine with it.
>
> So, the upshot is, we have THREE channels out of 32 all experiencing
> the some problem with the TRS insert. Some of them are flaky only
> when something is plugged in, and in at least one, the channel is
> flaky even when nothing is plugged in, i.e. if nothing is plugged
> into the insert, you get no sound, but if you then plug something
> in and remove it, there is sound, although it may go away again.
>
> My question is: what could be causing all these failures, and what
> can be done about it? We could replace the circuit boards for just
> the channels that have already failed, but since so many have failed,
> I'd like to prevent future failures if possible. But, we can't
> replace every channel! Do I just need to get in there with some
> kind of contact cleaner or something along those lines? (If so,
> what kind, and how?)
>
> I should mention that the mixer took some smoke damage from a fire
> a couple of years ago. The insurance company paid to have some
> company (I wasn't involved) take everything apart and clean it all
> with (I believe) presurized deionized water. So, that could be
> related but since it's seems to be ONLY affecting the inserts and
> none of the other jacks, switches, etc., it seems a little odd
> that it would only affect the one thing.
>
> - Logan
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 2:26:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:S5rud.7424$2e.4579@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> I should mention that the mixer took some smoke damage from a fire
> a couple of years ago. The insurance company paid to have some
> company (I wasn't involved) take everything apart and clean it all
> with (I believe) presurized deionized water.

While working at a chip plant I got to see the results of a DI water spill
on plain painted steel - after a few weeks it looked like it had been
rusting for years near the ocean. I wouldn't want to get any of that stuff
near my gear, distilled water yes - DI water no.

Sean
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 3:09:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Sean Conolly <sjconolly_98@yaaho.com> wrote:
>"Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:S5rud.7424$2e.4579@fe2.texas.rr.com...
>> I should mention that the mixer took some smoke damage from a fire
>> a couple of years ago. The insurance company paid to have some
>> company (I wasn't involved) take everything apart and clean it all
>> with (I believe) presurized deionized water.
>
>While working at a chip plant I got to see the results of a DI water spill
>on plain painted steel - after a few weeks it looked like it had been
>rusting for years near the ocean. I wouldn't want to get any of that stuff
>near my gear, distilled water yes - DI water no.

Distilled water should be deionized.

And ANY water will cause that sort of thing if you leave it soaking for
a couple weeks. Water is dangerous stuff. Be careful with it. Dry things
out thoroughly after cleaning, especially power transformers.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 7:20:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cpf9kl$pfk$1@panix2.panix.com...
> Sean Conolly <sjconolly_98@yaaho.com> wrote:
> >"Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
> >news:S5rud.7424$2e.4579@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> >> I should mention that the mixer took some smoke damage from a fire
> >> a couple of years ago. The insurance company paid to have some
> >> company (I wasn't involved) take everything apart and clean it all
> >> with (I believe) presurized deionized water.
> >
> >While working at a chip plant I got to see the results of a DI water
spill
> >on plain painted steel - after a few weeks it looked like it had been
> >rusting for years near the ocean.
>
> And ANY water will cause that sort of thing if you leave it soaking for
> a couple weeks. Water is dangerous stuff. Be careful with it. Dry
things
> out thoroughly after cleaning, especially power transformers.

Sorry - it was only wet for a day, it had been a couple of weeks since
cleaned up. The DI water used in wafer fab is pure enough to have almost no
mineral content or CO2 and will definitely have a corrosive effect on some
metals. But I now realize there's no way anyone would use this type of DI
water for this kind of cleaning so it's immaterial to this discussion. Spoke
too quickly, that's all.

Sean
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 8:49:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Logan Shaw <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote:

> Hey everyone,
>
> At my church we have an Allen & Heath GL2200 series mixer which is
> about 6 or 7 years old, and several months ago, we had a TRS channel
> insert go flaky, to the point where we were hearing crackling and
> losing signal on that channel.

Similar situation here, but I only have the main LR inserts going
intermittent so far. I solved the issue by placing the EQ unit inline
instead of inserted but it don't fare well for all the 24 other inserts
in the long term...


--
Eric (Dero) Desrochers
http://homepage.mac.com/dero72

Hiroshima 45, Tchernobyl 86, Windows 95
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 11:04:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Gareth Magennis wrote:

> The jack sockets may have dry joints where they are soldered onto the pcb.
> If this is the case you need to resolder every insert socket now.
>
> Or it could just be the jack sockets themselves are dirty or of poor
> quality. If this is the case and cleaning with switch cleaner isn't
> reliable, you could buy a bunch of stereo jacks, solder the tips to the
> rings and insert them in every insert socket. This will bypass the built in
> switches that so often get dirty and cause trouble.

The idea that the sockets may be coming unsoldered from the circuit
boards is an interesting one. I didn't explain this clearly, but on
at least one channel, it's flaky both with *and* without something
inserted into the jack. But it's flaky in different ways.

For example, on one channel, the speaker went up to speak and began
talking, but there was no sound. So I quickly grabbed a cable that
runs to a compressor and jammed it into the insert jack, and suddenly
there was sound. But it was not 100% better; there was a sort of
continuous high-frequency crackling noise going on, and wiggling
the cable a bit seemed to alleviate it a little but not totally.

Come to think of it, I'm wondering if the individual channels'
circuit boards might not be making good contact and the forces
caused by working with the insert jacks could be moving them
around. Or is that pretty unlikely?

- Logan
Anonymous
December 11, 2004 11:32:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Sean Conolly <sjconolly_98@yaaho.com> wrote:

>>While working at a chip plant I got to see the results of a DI water spill
>>on plain painted steel - after a few weeks it looked like it had been
>>rusting for years near the ocean. I wouldn't want to get any of that stuff
>>near my gear, distilled water yes - DI water no.

In the case of the mixer I described, it may have been distilled water
instead of deionized; I'm not really sure.

> Distilled water should be deionized.
>
> And ANY water will cause that sort of thing if you leave it soaking for
> a couple weeks. Water is dangerous stuff. Be careful with it.

Yes! It's the only chemical I know of that's both an acid *and* a base.

- Logan
Anonymous
December 12, 2004 4:32:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

If Caig De-Oxit contact cleaner & exercising the connector still are not
sufficient there's are other more effective, though more labor intensive
routes of remedy:

* Use a white typewriter eraser or pencil eraser to very gently clean the
plated surfaces of the connectors. Sometimes you have to whittle the end of
the eraser so that the exposed part of the eraser is longer to reach into
the connector.

I wouldn't recommend a burnishing tool or cloth, since they are in my
opinion, too abrasive.

Be careful not to use excessive pressure or to clean the contact surface for
too long using the eraser approach as it can wear away the plating (tin,
silver, gold). If you get down to the copper or what ever the underlying
material may be, your connector is shot at that point, since it will require
constant cleaning after that. I suppose that might be okay if you're ship
wrecked on a desert island trying to get your radio to work... :-o

Another even more labor intensive, but excellent way to fix lots of bad
contacts is to replace all of the connectors. This does nothing to address
switch contact or potentiometer wiper problems, but if connectors are your
only problem, then maybe it would be worth it?

Good luck!

Skler
Anonymous
December 12, 2004 4:42:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Yeah... Unfortunately, if water isn't de-ionized and if it's left to sit on
contact surfaces, it can cause damage. Especially devastating is the
situation where contact surfaces are allowed exposure to water while
electronic equipment is powered up. Yikes! If this is the case,
electrolysis may ensue and literally eat away not only plated surfaces, but
printed circuit lands as well.

When I've cleaned radios and pagers that have been subjected to
environmental damage or contamination, even if I use water to clean them
(which is rare) then I always use electrical contact cleaner or ethyl
alcohol or something to displace the water after that.

Skler



"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cpf9kl$pfk$1@panix2.panix.com...
> Sean Conolly <sjconolly_98@yaaho.com> wrote:
> >"Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
> >news:S5rud.7424$2e.4579@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> >> I should mention that the mixer took some smoke damage from a fire
> >> a couple of years ago. The insurance company paid to have some
> >> company (I wasn't involved) take everything apart and clean it all
> >> with (I believe) presurized deionized water.
> >
> >While working at a chip plant I got to see the results of a DI water
spill
> >on plain painted steel - after a few weeks it looked like it had been
> >rusting for years near the ocean. I wouldn't want to get any of that
stuff
> >near my gear, distilled water yes - DI water no.
>
> Distilled water should be deionized.
>
> And ANY water will cause that sort of thing if you leave it soaking for
> a couple weeks. Water is dangerous stuff. Be careful with it. Dry
things
> out thoroughly after cleaning, especially power transformers.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
December 12, 2004 4:47:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> sockets may be coming unsoldered from the circuit
> boards

It's common, where connectors are regularly used, for the wire or contact
lead going through a circuit board hole-pad to develop a crack around the
lead. This is really common actually and is really easy to fix by way of
re-flowing the solder that's already there or maybe adding just a little. If
you have a desoldering iron, it's often best to remove the old solder,
gently clean the pad plating & then re-solder.

Skler
Anonymous
December 12, 2004 7:46:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <cpi6d2$njr$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> antcopter@hotmail.com writes:

> If Caig De-Oxit contact cleaner & exercising the connector still are not
> sufficient there's are other more effective, though more labor intensive
> routes of remedy:
>
> * Use a white typewriter eraser or pencil eraser to very gently clean the
> plated surfaces of the connectors. Sometimes you have to whittle the end of
> the eraser so that the exposed part of the eraser is longer to reach into
> the connector.

If the problem occurs with no plug inserted (as I believe was
originally described), cleaning the surface of the normalling contacts
might help, but that's not what you described. Usually, though,
the problem is that the spring that holds the contacts closed has
become weak and there isn't enough pressure on the contacts.

> Another even more labor intensive, but excellent way to fix lots of bad
> contacts is to replace all of the connectors.

That's what you have to do when they go bad. But like so many other
problems that are brought ot this newsgroup, there are enough
possibilities that the one with the problem needs to do some more
troubleshooting before he knows where the problem actually lies.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
December 12, 2004 8:16:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message news:S5rud.7424
>
> My question is: what could be causing all these failures, and what
> can be done about it? We could replace the circuit boards for just


Something common to all mixers with vertically orientated insert sockets.

Squirt some contact cleaner in them (ie Caig ProGold) , or stop people
yanking on the cables/plugs 'cos hthat can fracture the PCB traces where
connected to the socket.

geoff.
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 2:25:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Logan Shaw wrote:

> I should mention that the mixer took some smoke damage from a fire
> a couple of years ago.

That'll explain it.

> The insurance company paid to have some
> company (I wasn't involved) take everything apart and clean it all
> with (I believe) presurized deionized water. So, that could be
> related but since it's seems to be ONLY affecting the inserts and
> none of the other jacks, switches, etc., it seems a little odd
> that it would only affect the one thing.

No, it's perfectly understandable.

*Only* the inserts have 'break contacts' that do anything meaningful. They
'break' the sgnal when you plug a jack in and re-connect when it's
removed. If the contacts go 'flakey' so does the signal.

When we used to have equipment made in Bombay we had tons of inserts go
bad after only a few months. It *never* happened with UK made gear using
the same jacks.

I concluded that it was the petro-chemical smog in Bombay that did the
damage. We even had a jack analysed to look at the problem closer. Contact
contamination of 'undetermined origin' was the result. I'm sure smoke
would do the same.


Graham
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 2:28:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Logan Shaw wrote:

> Gareth Magennis wrote:
>
> > The jack sockets may have dry joints where they are soldered onto the pcb.
> > If this is the case you need to resolder every insert socket now.
> >
> > Or it could just be the jack sockets themselves are dirty or of poor
> > quality. If this is the case and cleaning with switch cleaner isn't
> > reliable, you could buy a bunch of stereo jacks, solder the tips to the
> > rings and insert them in every insert socket. This will bypass the built in
> > switches that so often get dirty and cause trouble.
>
> The idea that the sockets may be coming unsoldered from the circuit
> boards is an interesting one. I didn't explain this clearly, but on
> at least one channel, it's flaky both with *and* without something
> inserted into the jack. But it's flaky in different ways.
>
> For example, on one channel, the speaker went up to speak and began
> talking, but there was no sound. So I quickly grabbed a cable that
> runs to a compressor and jammed it into the insert jack, and suddenly
> there was sound. But it was not 100% better; there was a sort of
> continuous high-frequency crackling noise going on, and wiggling
> the cable a bit seemed to alleviate it a little but not totally.
>
> Come to think of it, I'm wondering if the individual channels'
> circuit boards might not be making good contact and the forces
> caused by working with the insert jacks could be moving them
> around. Or is that pretty unlikely?

Your first job is to *replace* every insert jack with brand new stock..

I'm 99.99999% certain that every related problem will then go away.


Graham
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 2:29:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Skler wrote:

> > sockets may be coming unsoldered from the circuit
> > boards
>
> It's common, where connectors are regularly used, for the wire or contact
> lead going through a circuit board hole-pad to develop a crack around the
> lead. This is really common actually and is really easy to fix by way of
> re-flowing the solder that's already there or maybe adding just a little. If
> you have a desoldering iron, it's often best to remove the old solder,
> gently clean the pad plating & then re-solder.

And if you've gone to the trouble of dismantling it - you might as well replace
the damn socket whilst you're there - or you'll end up opening it up again !

Graham
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 2:32:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Logan Shaw wrote:

> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
> > Sean Conolly <sjconolly_98@yaaho.com> wrote:
>
> >>While working at a chip plant I got to see the results of a DI water spill
> >>on plain painted steel - after a few weeks it looked like it had been
> >>rusting for years near the ocean. I wouldn't want to get any of that stuff
> >>near my gear, distilled water yes - DI water no.
>
> In the case of the mixer I described, it may have been distilled water
> instead of deionized; I'm not really sure.
>
> > Distilled water should be deionized.
> >
> > And ANY water will cause that sort of thing if you leave it soaking for
> > a couple weeks. Water is dangerous stuff. Be careful with it.
>
> Yes! It's the only chemical I know of that's both an acid *and* a base.

It's also entirely unsuitable for washing fully assembled audio pcbs ! They
should *never* be washed with all components fitted.


Graham
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 2:32:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear wrote:
> Logan Shaw wrote:
>
>
>> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Sean Conolly <sjconolly_98@yaaho.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> While working at a chip plant I got to see the results of a DI water spill
>>>> on plain painted steel - after a few weeks it looked like it had been
>>>> rusting for years near the ocean. I wouldn't want to get any of that stuff
>>>> near my gear, distilled water yes - DI water no.
>>
>> In the case of the mixer I described, it may have been distilled water
>> instead of deionized; I'm not really sure.
>>
>>
>>> Distilled water should be deionized.
>>>
>>> And ANY water will cause that sort of thing if you leave it soaking for
>>> a couple weeks. Water is dangerous stuff. Be careful with it.
>>
>> Yes! It's the only chemical I know of that's both an acid *and* a base.
>
>
> It's also entirely unsuitable for washing fully assembled audio pcbs ! They
> should *never* be washed with all components fitted.

So what do you use these days (now that the big vat of TF is verboten...)
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 10:49:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Kurt Albershardt wrote:

> Pooh Bear wrote:
> > Logan Shaw wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Scott Dorsey wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Sean Conolly <sjconolly_98@yaaho.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> While working at a chip plant I got to see the results of a DI water spill
> >>>> on plain painted steel - after a few weeks it looked like it had been
> >>>> rusting for years near the ocean. I wouldn't want to get any of that stuff
> >>>> near my gear, distilled water yes - DI water no.
> >>
> >> In the case of the mixer I described, it may have been distilled water
> >> instead of deionized; I'm not really sure.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Distilled water should be deionized.
> >>>
> >>> And ANY water will cause that sort of thing if you leave it soaking for
> >>> a couple weeks. Water is dangerous stuff. Be careful with it.
> >>
> >> Yes! It's the only chemical I know of that's both an acid *and* a base.
> >
> >
> > It's also entirely unsuitable for washing fully assembled audio pcbs ! They
> > should *never* be washed with all components fitted.
>
> So what do you use these days (now that the big vat of TF is verboten...)

In manufacturing, most audio pcbs are never washed, nor do they need to be.


Graham
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 10:52:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Y'know it just occurred to me that I've never actually tried cleaning
the switch contacts on a TRS phone connector as opposed to just
cleaning the plug contacts inside. I don't know if that's even
practical!

You might just go for the contact cleaner approach, e.g. Caig De-Ox it
or Pro-Gold & if that doesn't do the trick, consider replacing the
connectors.

One idea I've had but haven't tried is using some kind of liquid silver
cleaner, actually squirting it into a connector with a spray bottle,
letting it do it's chemical job for a minute or so, then washing it out
& displacing it with some kind of contact cleaner, hopefully something
relatively innert. This might really work on stuff where the contact
surfaces are hard to reach and where they are silver plated. The
problem would be making sure that you can sufficiently wash & displace
the silver polish/cleaner, which might remove the plating if it was
allowed to stay for too long.

Anyone ever tried this?

Skler
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 11:38:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41BCD50B.F5A99201@hotmail.com

> It's also entirely unsuitable for washing fully assembled audio pcbs
> ! They should *never* be washed with all components fitted.

I understand that many test equipment PCBs are washed with water. They are
soldered with water-soluble flux. The benefit is the absence of
potentially-conductive residues.

AFAIK, most electronic small parts are inherently moisture-resistant. If
they weren't, the moisture in the atmosphere, which is a vapor and therefore
even more pervasive than water in fluid form, would do them in.
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 11:58:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Logan Shaw wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> At my church we have an Allen & Heath GL2200 series mixer which is
> about 6 or 7 years old, and several months ago, we had a TRS channel
> insert go flaky, to the point where we were hearing crackling and
> losing signal on that channel. Things being how they are at
churches,
> it hasn't gotten repaired yet. So then last weekend, I was the one
> running sound and noticed I was having problems with another channel
> also cutting out, at which point I moved the mic to a third channel,
> which it turns out ALSO had problems cutting out. So I moved to
> a fourth channel, and everything is fine with it.
>
> So, the upshot is, we have THREE channels out of 32 all experiencing
> the some problem with the TRS insert. Some of them are flaky only
> when something is plugged in, and in at least one, the channel is
> flaky even when nothing is plugged in, i.e. if nothing is plugged
> into the insert, you get no sound, but if you then plug something
> in and remove it, there is sound, although it may go away again.
>
> My question is: what could be causing all these failures, and what
> can be done about it? We could replace the circuit boards for just
> the channels that have already failed, but since so many have failed,
> I'd like to prevent future failures if possible. But, we can't
> replace every channel! Do I just need to get in there with some
> kind of contact cleaner or something along those lines? (If so,
> what kind, and how?)
>
> I should mention that the mixer took some smoke damage from a fire
> a couple of years ago. The insurance company paid to have some
> company (I wasn't involved) take everything apart and clean it all
> with (I believe) presurized deionized water. So, that could be
> related but since it's seems to be ONLY affecting the inserts and
> none of the other jacks, switches, etc., it seems a little odd
> that it would only affect the one thing.
>
> - Logan

I have an older (circa 1992) GS3 that had this problem, it's pretty
common with A&H mixers, probably just about any mixer with a patch
panel that faces up.

I deinstalled the console a while back to do some things to it (clean
the control room pot and replace some faders....they were banged up
when I bought the console, they worked fine but were a little loose),
while I was at it I cleaned the inserts.

You need to clean the inserts, not replace them...

What you need to do is buy one of those TRS burnishing jack tools, I
bought mine from Markertek.

It's a TRS jack with a tiny hole in the side, you put that in the
insert and spray a little CAIG De-Oxit on there, then follow it up with
their Preservative.

I'd recommend just doing all of the jacks, it'll take a while (I did
mine over three nights so I didn't lose my mind) but it will be well
worth it.

The tool costs about $30, but I did mine about 9 months ago and they
have been perfect, not a single problem at all, whereas before I had
about six channels that would go intermittent even after plugging the
insert cable back in.

Analogeezer
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 1:45:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Pooh Bear
Logan Shaw
>>>
>> > And ANY water will cause that sort of thing if you leave it soaking for
>> > a couple weeks. Water is dangerous stuff. Be careful with it.
>>
>> Yes! It's the only chemical I know of that's both an acid *and* a base.
>
> It's also entirely unsuitable for washing fully assembled audio pcbs !
> They
> should *never* be washed with all components fitted.
>
> Graham



** Washing contaminated PCBs in a water / detergent solution is standard
practice.

What ever does Pooh *imagine* the risk is ??

Or is it that he suffers from the notorious pommy aversion to bathing ???





.............. Phil
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 1:45:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Phil Allison wrote:

> "Pooh Bear
> Logan Shaw
> >>>
> >> > And ANY water will cause that sort of thing if you leave it soaking for
> >> > a couple weeks. Water is dangerous stuff. Be careful with it.
> >>
> >> Yes! It's the only chemical I know of that's both an acid *and* a base.
> >
> > It's also entirely unsuitable for washing fully assembled audio pcbs !
> > They
> > should *never* be washed with all components fitted.
> >
> > Graham
>
> ** Washing contaminated PCBs in a water / detergent solution is standard
> practice.
>
> What ever does Pooh *imagine* the risk is ??
>
> Or is it that he suffers from the notorious pommy aversion to bathing ???

I *love* a good soak in a bath. A really good shower is great too but best in a
dedicated 'wet area'. :-)

As for washing fully assembled pcbs, I would be concerned about losing /
redistributing where it isn't wanted internal switch and pot lubrication for
starters. Many component manufacturers specify wash / no wash criteria.

As for contamination, you're fighting an uphill battle once it's there.


Graham
Anonymous
December 14, 2004 12:25:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> I should mention that the mixer took some smoke damage from a fire

Arrggghhhh!

I can tell you that depending on how long the smoke was allowed to stay on the
components you have corrosion damage - and water may have helped it along (even
though it's been a few years). Get your magnifying glass out and go over the
boards carefully. I'm betting your going to see pits on most component leads
or lands. Reason: smoke and water combine to make sulfuric acid.

Probably your best bet (given the above) is wholesale replacement of the jacks
- but you also might want to take a peek at the sliders. they may be due for
changing too.

Good luck (even God has problems with intermittent symptoms like you describe)

Mike
INTHEDEN LLC
Anonymous
December 14, 2004 1:46:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

analogeezer@aerosolkings.com wrote:
> I have an older (circa 1992) GS3 that had this problem, it's pretty
> common with A&H mixers, probably just about any mixer with a patch
> panel that faces up.
:
:
> You need to clean the inserts, not replace them...
>
> What you need to do is buy one of those TRS burnishing jack tools, I
> bought mine from Markertek.
>
> It's a TRS jack with a tiny hole in the side, you put that in the
> insert and spray a little CAIG De-Oxit on there, then follow it up with
> their Preservative.

Aha! Thanks, that's very helpful. I will definitely check it out.
If anyone is interested, here's the link to the Markertek product
page:

http://www.markertek.com/SearchProduct.asp?item=VER%2D1...

By the way, I'm pretty sure the A&H mixer is really a GL2200, but
a couple of people have mentioned in this thread patch panels that
face upwards, whereas the one on the mixer I'm using definitely
faces backwards. So, that's a little confusing, but probably not
terribly important...

- Logan
Anonymous
December 14, 2004 3:17:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Logan Shaw wrote:

> By the way, I'm pretty sure the A&H mixer is really a GL2200, but
> a couple of people have mentioned in this thread patch panels that
> face upwards, whereas the one on the mixer I'm using definitely
> faces backwards.

The inserts on a GL2200 are on the back panel.

--
ha
Anonymous
December 14, 2004 4:47:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

analogeezer@aerosolkings.com wrote:

> You need to clean the inserts, not replace them...

I disagree entirely.


> What you need to do is buy one of those TRS burnishing jack tools, I
> bought mine from Markertek.

A burnishing tool won't clean the break contacts.


> It's a TRS jack with a tiny hole in the side, you put that in the
> insert and spray a little CAIG De-Oxit on there, then follow it up with
> their Preservative.

That's ^^^^ *not* a burnishing tool

I've been there with the flaky insert problem. Blasting the jack with
contact cleaner is only a short term measure. The problem will return and
it'll haunt you. There is no substitute for replacement, especially with a
smoke compromised desk.


Graham
Anonymous
December 14, 2004 4:53:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:41BCD50B.F5A99201@hotmail.com
>
> > It's also entirely unsuitable for washing fully assembled audio pcbs
> > ! They should *never* be washed with all components fitted.
>
> I understand that many test equipment PCBs are washed with water. They are
> soldered with water-soluble flux. The benefit is the absence of
> potentially-conductive residues.
>
> AFAIK, most electronic small parts are inherently moisture-resistant. If
> they weren't, the moisture in the atmosphere, which is a vapor and therefore
> even more pervasive than water in fluid form, would do them in.

Board washing is fine *before* things like pots, presets, connectors and
switches are soldered in place. Washing a fully assembled board with such parts
just gets crud inside the pots / switches and compromises their intentional
lubrication.

Normal commercial practice today for wave soldring is to use 'no wash' flux ( in
organic solvent solution ). So called because the board doesn't need washing,
the exhausted flux being effectively inert.


Graham
Anonymous
December 14, 2004 11:54:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Well mine is working just fine, thank you very much. This was in fact
recommended by A&H service in the UK when I talked to them about it.

I think the OP is looking for a fairly easy and low cost solution, keep
in mind we're talking about a GL2200 here, not the most high end of
consoles. If they hire the labor to replace the inserts and then buy
all of those jacks, they'll easily be at 50% of the cost of the
console.

Analogeezer
Anonymous
December 14, 2004 6:38:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

These REAN inserts were a pain. My solution was to wire shorting jumpers
and drop them in all the inserts...unless I needed them for a piece of gear.

"Gareth Magennis" <sound.service@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:cpelak$n1j$1@hercules.btinternet.com...
> The jack sockets may have dry joints where they are soldered onto the pcb.
> If this is the case you need to resolder every insert socket now.
>
> Or it could just be the jack sockets themselves are dirty or of poor
> quality. If this is the case and cleaning with switch cleaner isn't
> reliable, you could buy a bunch of stereo jacks, solder the tips to the
> rings and insert them in every insert socket. This will bypass the built
> in switches that so often get dirty and cause trouble.
>
> Gareth.
>
>
>
> "Logan Shaw" <lshaw-usenet@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:S5rud.7424$2e.4579@fe2.texas.rr.com...
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> At my church we have an Allen & Heath GL2200 series mixer which is
>> about 6 or 7 years old, and several months ago, we had a TRS channel
>> insert go flaky, to the point where we were hearing crackling and
>> losing signal on that channel. Things being how they are at churches,
>> it hasn't gotten repaired yet. So then last weekend, I was the one
>> running sound and noticed I was having problems with another channel
>> also cutting out, at which point I moved the mic to a third channel,
>> which it turns out ALSO had problems cutting out. So I moved to
>> a fourth channel, and everything is fine with it.
>>
>> So, the upshot is, we have THREE channels out of 32 all experiencing
>> the some problem with the TRS insert. Some of them are flaky only
>> when something is plugged in, and in at least one, the channel is
>> flaky even when nothing is plugged in, i.e. if nothing is plugged
>> into the insert, you get no sound, but if you then plug something
>> in and remove it, there is sound, although it may go away again.
>>
>> My question is: what could be causing all these failures, and what
>> can be done about it? We could replace the circuit boards for just
>> the channels that have already failed, but since so many have failed,
>> I'd like to prevent future failures if possible. But, we can't
>> replace every channel! Do I just need to get in there with some
>> kind of contact cleaner or something along those lines? (If so,
>> what kind, and how?)
>>
>> I should mention that the mixer took some smoke damage from a fire
>> a couple of years ago. The insurance company paid to have some
>> company (I wasn't involved) take everything apart and clean it all
>> with (I believe) presurized deionized water. So, that could be
>> related but since it's seems to be ONLY affecting the inserts and
>> none of the other jacks, switches, etc., it seems a little odd
>> that it would only affect the one thing.
>>
>> - Logan
>
>
Anonymous
December 14, 2004 8:01:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

analogeezer@aerosolkings.com wrote:
> Well mine is working just fine, thank you very much. This was in fact
> recommended by A&H service in the UK when I talked to them about it.
>
> I think the OP is looking for a fairly easy and low cost solution, keep
> in mind we're talking about a GL2200 here, not the most high end of
> consoles. If they hire the labor to replace the inserts and then buy
> all of those jacks, they'll easily be at 50% of the cost of the
> console.
>
> Analogeezer
>
The traces on the A&H boards are also not very rugged easily destroyed
by letting your concentration wander for a second
G
Anonymous
December 16, 2004 2:37:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

analogeezer@aerosolkings.com wrote:

> Well mine is working just fine, thank you very much. This was in fact
> recommended by A&H service in the UK when I talked to them about it.
>
> I think the OP is looking for a fairly easy and low cost solution, keep
> in mind we're talking about a GL2200 here, not the most high end of
> consoles. If they hire the labor to replace the inserts and then buy
> all of those jacks, they'll easily be at 50% of the cost of the
> console.

You have an inflated idea of the cost of the jacks for starters. I can't
answer for US labor rates.

I bet yours wasn't subjected to smoke damage either.


Graham
Anonymous
December 16, 2004 2:38:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <41C17397.B0EE7112@hotmail.com> rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com writes:

> You have an inflated idea of the cost of the jacks for starters. I can't
> answer for US labor rates.

The cost of the jacks is down in the noise. I would imagine that it
would take upwards of 4 hours to disassemble a non-modular console to
the point where the jacks could be replaced, replace 24 (or 32?)
jacks, and re-assemble. These days, $65/hour is cheap. So at $2 a
piece for the jacks (they have to make some money on the parts) that's
over $300. It would make someone think about whether he wanted to have
it done, or come up with a work-around.

On the other hand, it would probably cost more than half that amount
to replace a single jack.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
December 17, 2004 2:18:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

analogeezer@aerosolkings.com wrote:
> I think the OP is looking for a fairly easy and low cost solution, keep
> in mind we're talking about a GL2200 here, not the most high end of
> consoles. If they hire the labor to replace the inserts and then buy
> all of those jacks, they'll easily be at 50% of the cost of the
> console.

We could probably do it ourselves without much risk of blowing things
up. I've been known to solder on things in the past without destroying
them, plus one of the other sound guys has a EE degree and used to work
on prototype hardware for precise timing instruments for the telecom
industry. So I think we could probably replace some jacks.

However, being practical, the contact cleaning thing sounds like
the way to go. The mixer is sort of ailing, but then we are
moving into a new building in around a year and we are supposed
to be getting a new mixer and other new stuff too. So it only
has to last a year.

- Logan
Anonymous
December 17, 2004 2:18:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Mike Rivers wrote:
> The cost of the jacks is down in the noise. I would imagine that it
> would take upwards of 4 hours to disassemble a non-modular console to
> the point where the jacks could be replaced, replace 24 (or 32?)
> jacks, and re-assemble.

32 jacks, but it is a modular console. I'm absolutely certain of this,
because one of the channel boards already went out for repair a while
ago, and I covered the empty spot with painter's masking tape to keep
out the dust and stuff. :-)

- Logan
Anonymous
December 21, 2004 2:36:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Logan Shaw wrote:
> analogeezer@aerosolkings.com wrote:
> > I think the OP is looking for a fairly easy and low cost solution,
keep
> > in mind we're talking about a GL2200 here, not the most high end of
> > consoles. If they hire the labor to replace the inserts and then
buy
> > all of those jacks, they'll easily be at 50% of the cost of the
> > console.
>
> We could probably do it ourselves without much risk of blowing things
> up. I've been known to solder on things in the past without
destroying
> them, plus one of the other sound guys has a EE degree and used to
work
> on prototype hardware for precise timing instruments for the telecom
> industry. So I think we could probably replace some jacks.
>
> However, being practical, the contact cleaning thing sounds like
> the way to go. The mixer is sort of ailing, but then we are
> moving into a new building in around a year and we are supposed
> to be getting a new mixer and other new stuff too. So it only
> has to last a year.
>
> - Logan


Yeah I'd try that approach, the TRS burnisher and the Caig will come in
handy for other things at some point, and if you still have bad inserts
then you will know it's a solder joint issue and not just corrosion.

It won't take you very long and cost very much, and even if it doesn't
fix the problem you'll have a tool and some supplies that will be
useful.

The board is internally modular, but still a PITA to remove channels
for service, do that 24 times and add in the master section and you are
looking at hours of labor.

Sounds like you would do the work yourself, but I seriously doubt any
service shop would get all those inserts and install them for the $300
Mike Rivers suggests it would cost.

Analogeezer
Anonymous
December 21, 2004 2:36:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Logan Shaw wrote:
> analogeezer@aerosolkings.com wrote:
> > I think the OP is looking for a fairly easy and low cost solution,
keep
> > in mind we're talking about a GL2200 here, not the most high end of
> > consoles. If they hire the labor to replace the inserts and then
buy
> > all of those jacks, they'll easily be at 50% of the cost of the
> > console.
>
> We could probably do it ourselves without much risk of blowing things
> up. I've been known to solder on things in the past without
destroying
> them, plus one of the other sound guys has a EE degree and used to
work
> on prototype hardware for precise timing instruments for the telecom
> industry. So I think we could probably replace some jacks.
>
> However, being practical, the contact cleaning thing sounds like
> the way to go. The mixer is sort of ailing, but then we are
> moving into a new building in around a year and we are supposed
> to be getting a new mixer and other new stuff too. So it only
> has to last a year.
>
> - Logan


Yeah I'd try that approach, the TRS burnisher and the Caig will come in
handy for other things at some point, and if you still have bad inserts
then you will know it's a solder joint issue and not just corrosion.

It won't take you very long and cost very much, and even if it doesn't
fix the problem you'll have a tool and some supplies that will be
useful.

The board is internally modular, but still a PITA to remove channels
for service, do that 24 times and add in the master section and you are
looking at hours of labor.

Sounds like you would do the work yourself, but I seriously doubt any
service shop would get all those inserts and install them for the $300
Mike Rivers suggests it would cost.

Analogeezer
!