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Making STUDIO tracks sound like LIVE tracks...

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Anonymous
December 20, 2004 10:00:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hello! A professor of mine suggested this group for asking a sound
mixing problem. Thanks in advance for any help or hints offered!

I'm a student filmmaker and I'm editing (sound and picture) a student
short film. The film at one point has a scene in which a rock band
performs a song. We at first thought that we could use a song from the
band's demo, add some reverb, add some audience noise and we'd achieve
success. But no matter what effects I've tried, it always sounds like a
studio mix.

We can't reshoot or even record the band (they've all gone home for the
holidays, how rock n' roll is that?), and we don't have access to the
original pre-mixed tracks. All we have is this one studio song and I
feel tons of pressure from everybody, even though everybody knows I
signed on as "editor" and not "sound guru". Editors get blamed for
everything in the end. That's just the way it is.

The song, by the way, is pretty basic rock n' roll and the song sounds
good production-wise (as in, you could imagine it being on the radio).
The problem isn't fantastic studio wizardry that could never be
replicated live. The problem is that the song doesn't have the air or
life that one would expect from LIVE rock n' roll. The sync of the
track and the band looks good, by the way, so if the track actually
sounded live, the scene would totally work.

A friend of mine had the (perhaps brilliant?) idea of blasting the song
on a stereo and recording the song in an empty room. But before I start
shooting in the dark, praying and hoping, I was hoping to get some
input from you guys.

If you read all of this, thanks. If you have a thought or two to help
me, double thanks!
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 2:24:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Number Lime" <numberlime@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1103554808.458971.38470@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com
>
> A friend of mine had the (perhaps brilliant?) idea of blasting the
> song on a stereo and recording the song in an empty room. But before
> I start shooting in the dark, praying and hoping, I was hoping to get
> some input from you guys.

He's not so much brilliant as perhaps knowledgeable in how people do things
like this.

Better than an empty room is a full room. Preferably a room with the desired
acoustics. Achieving that is left to your creativity.

I can only add that after you re-record your tracks, play with mixing a bit
of the original and a bit of the re-recorded tracks to suit your taste.
Related resources
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 6:57:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Your friend is right. Ideally, you should pipe the tune through an average PA
system in a room of hall comparable in size to the room you want to simulate,
then put a couple of good mics back about 1/3 of the way. Just like the
audience hears it.

Mix it back with the original tracks if you can, with some crowd noise.

Or make it a big deal. Rent a hall, do this setup, and invite a lot of friends
to be the "crowd", mixing both the music ambience and the crowd noise at the
same time.
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 8:22:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Number Lime" <numberlime@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1103554808.458971.38470
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

> Hello! A professor of mine suggested this group for asking a sound
> mixing problem. Thanks in advance for any help or hints offered!
>
> I'm a student filmmaker and I'm editing (sound and picture) a student
> short film. The film at one point has a scene in which a rock band
> performs a song. We at first thought that we could use a song from the
> band's demo, add some reverb, add some audience noise and we'd achieve
> success. But no matter what effects I've tried, it always sounds like a
> studio mix.
>


If most modern gigs are anything to go by, you won't have anywhere near
enough Kick drum on the demo recording to make it sound authentic.

Take a wet fish and slap it against a hard surface in time with the music,
this should have the desired effect.
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 9:17:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <Xns95C5B0C404243Yawnbedtime@212.159.2.87> Yawn@bedtime.com writes:

> If most modern gigs are anything to go by, you won't have anywhere near
> enough Kick drum on the demo recording to make it sound authentic.
>
> Take a wet fish and slap it against a hard surface in time with the music,
> this should have the desired effect.

Shoot it for the video, too.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
December 20, 2004 9:38:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> He's not so much brilliant as perhaps knowledgeable in how people do
things
> like this.
>
> Better than an empty room is a full room. Preferably a room with the
desired
> acoustics. Achieving that is left to your creativity.
>
> I can only add that after you re-record your tracks, play with mixing a
bit
> of the original and a bit of the re-recorded tracks to suit your taste.
>
>

A local rock bar might allow running the track through the PA between acts,
then you could get the room chatter too. Perhaps even direct the crowd to
make noise.
Anonymous
December 20, 2004 9:53:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1103554808.458971.38470@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Number Lime" <numberlime@yahoo.com> wrote:

> A friend of mine had the (perhaps brilliant?) idea of blasting the song
> on a stereo and recording the song in an empty room. But before I start
> shooting in the dark, praying and hoping, I was hoping to get some
> input from you guys.

that's actually a pretty good idea, in fact that was a trick that
Mutt Lange used when he recorded AC/DC's _Highway To Hell_ - took the
basic tracks and blasted them through a PA in a fairly live room and
miked it, then mixed that back onto the basic tracks for ambience.

I liked that other guy's idea better though - doing it in a club with
bodies inside making noise would give you a more realistic-sounding
recording. Worth a shot....

--
Dan Dreibelbis, Guitar Nerd - Better Living Through Home Recording
Now On Soundclick for your listening pleasure!
www.soundclick.com/bands/2/dandreibelbismusic.htm
new song "Bongo Congo"
Anonymous
December 21, 2004 4:42:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<< > Take a wet fish and slap it against a hard surface in time with the music,

> this should have the desired effect.

<Shoot it for the video, too. >>



Around here I think the Fish & Wildlife Dept will slap a fine on you for
shooting at fish. You're supposed to do it the old fashioned way with a rod &
reel.
Scott Fraser
Anonymous
December 21, 2004 8:56:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Number Lime" <numberlime@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1103554808.458971.38470@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> A friend of mine had the (perhaps brilliant?) idea of blasting the song
> on a stereo and recording the song in an empty room.

Could work... what type of "live" do you want it to be? Concert hall? Smoky
bar? Arena? You should be able to do this with a good convolution reverb & a
bit of dynamics processing for better or worse, I would think.

Neil Henderson
Anonymous
December 21, 2004 10:30:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <20041220204212.06154.00001472@mb-m21.aol.com> scotfraser@aol.com writes:

> << > Take a wet fish and slap it against a hard surface in time with the music,
>
> > this should have the desired effect.
>
> <Shoot it for the video, too. >>


>
> Around here I think the Fish & Wildlife Dept will slap a fine on you for
> shooting at fish. You're supposed to do it the old fashioned way with a rod &
> reel.

But slapping a fish with a rod and reel doesn't make quite the sound
of a contemporary kick drum.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
December 21, 2004 10:40:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Neil Henderson wrote:
> "Number Lime" <numberlime@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1103554808.458971.38470@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > A friend of mine had the (perhaps brilliant?) idea of blasting the
song
> > on a stereo and recording the song in an empty room.
>
> Could work... what type of "live" do you want it to be? Concert hall?
Smoky
> bar? Arena? You should be able to do this with a good convolution
reverb & a
> bit of dynamics processing for better or worse, I would think.
>
> Neil Henderson

Small concert hall/large bar, more than half-filled with attentive,
enthusiastic people.

Any starting "recipes" for processing would be much appreciated--just
as a starting point to get going.

A question about re-recording the studio tracks over a PA in a large
room:

Should I mix down the stereo studio recording to mono and then record
the room via a stereo mic set up? It seems like PA's in bars are mono.
Am I wrong? Or am I over-thinking this process?

Thanks to the responses so far. Especially the inspired slapping fish
idea. Brilliant!
Anonymous
December 21, 2004 12:42:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:Hqudnaf0b6UBYVvcRVn-hA@comcast.com...
> "Number Lime" <numberlime@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1103554808.458971.38470@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com
>>
>> A friend of mine had the (perhaps brilliant?) idea of blasting the
>> song on a stereo and recording the song in an empty room. But before
>> I start shooting in the dark, praying and hoping, I was hoping to get
>> some input from you guys.
>
> He's not so much brilliant as perhaps knowledgeable in how people do
> things like this.
>
> Better than an empty room is a full room. Preferably a room with the
> desired acoustics. Achieving that is left to your creativity.

Full of people talking, singing, farting, etc to get that real live
ambience. You can also detune some notes to make them 'bum' and vary the
timing of tracks to make it sound like a typically loose band performance !

geoff
Anonymous
December 21, 2004 12:42:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Re: Making STUDIO tracks sound like LIVE tracks...

Group: rec.audio.pro Date: Tue, Dec 21, 2004, 9:42am (EST+18) From:
geoff@nospam-paf.co.nz (Geoff Wood)

Better than an empty room is a full room. Preferably a room with the
desired acoustics. Achieving that is left to your creativity.
Full of people talking, singing, farting, etc to get that real live
ambience. You can also detune some notes to make them 'bum' and vary the
timing of tracks to make it sound like a typically loose band
performance !
geoff<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

the appropriate term for that is called "worldizing"


Eric
Anonymous
December 21, 2004 12:42:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 16:00:37 -0500, Audioetc@webtv.net (Eric Toline)
wrote:

>
>Re: Making STUDIO tracks sound like LIVE tracks...
>
>Group: rec.audio.pro Date: Tue, Dec 21, 2004, 9:42am (EST+18) From:
>geoff@nospam-paf.co.nz (Geoff Wood)
>
>Better than an empty room is a full room. Preferably a room with the
>desired acoustics. Achieving that is left to your creativity.
>Full of people talking, singing, farting, etc to get that real live
>ambience. You can also detune some notes to make them 'bum' and vary the
>timing of tracks to make it sound like a typically loose band
>performance !
>geoff<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
>the appropriate term for that is called "worldizing"

There was a track on one of the RAP CD comps that I immediately
thought "Oh, a live recording" as it had bar-type noises even before
the first note started. Later I read some comment about it (I
apparently hadn't read the liner notes on that one) saying "Hey, a
really great job making it sound live." But that wasn't even starting
with the multitrack recording, that apparently started with the idea
of making it sound live from the start.

Surely part of the problem is the studio recording already has
compression and such, both of instruments and overall, and any crowd
noises added will not have compression and so will be too 'live' and
sound like they're cheering a jukebox. It might be tempting to do
expansion on the studio recording, but that generally doesn't work.
But I wouls think some compression on the crowd sound would help it
'gel' with the studio recording.
Yes, run it through a PA, and probably up to a point, the worser
the PA, the better...

>Eric

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley
Anonymous
December 21, 2004 8:20:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Here's my setup, if you can do it.

I presume you have a multitrack of the music.

Play the music with a rough narrow stereo mix through a PA to a room full of
enthusiastic folks, not too loud in volume. If you have available tracks, place
mics in various positions. (I'd be inclined to use a coinicident pair, matched,
back about 1/3 to 1/2 of the distance to the back wall, aimed in the
traditional X pattern. Record these mics onto open tracks.

At mixdown, mix the music in stereo in a medium narrow soundfield (not full to
the sides, but not mono either.) Pan you coincident or ambient mics hard left
and right, and mix them in.

Be careful pf phase cancellation or comb filtering. The primary sound of the
music should be the mults, but you should hear ambience and crowd noise "around
it".

You could even try judicious "ducking". Put each ambient mic track through a
compressor. Use a stereo mix of the music to trigger the compressor. Set the
attack and release very fast. Then you can get louder ambient noise without
overpowering the music.
Anonymous
December 22, 2004 3:20:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I think the suggestion to re-record in a similar room is the best.
Alternatively, if you want to simulate a club more than a stadium, try
to use a slap delay instead of reverb. Start with about 60 mS.

--
Eric (Dero) Desrochers
http://homepage.mac.com/dero72

Hiroshima 45, Tchernobyl 86, Windows 95
!