Newbie: 'Warmest' Mic under $200?

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I am a newbie interested in buying a mic for all-around recording of
guitar (electric), vocals, electric bass, and whatever else I find. I
want to get the most subtle detail possible, over the widest frequency
range, while adding some warmth to compensate for the fact that I'm
recording to a computer through a 24/96 interface.

It looks from the specs I've been reading that a condenser is the way
to go, since they have a broader frequency range. Am I correct in my
conclusion? What are the advantages of a dynamic? Can one mike a
guitar amp at close range with a condenser, as you would with an SM-57,
and what effect would it have on a lower-frequency distorted sound
(think 'Sister Ray')?

Sorry for all of the basic questions, but after reading hundreds of
archived posts from this group, I'm actually more confused The issue
of warmth was occasionally addressed, but the answer usually ended up
as "save up for the Neumann", which is not an option for me.
Thanks in advance,

Chris

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

This post is sure to gather a lot of responses with differing opinions - but
IMHO on the budget you gave I would get a Studio Projects TrackPack - which
is their B3 multipattern large condenser bundled with their VTB-1 preamp
(Sweetwater and maybe others are offering the TrackPack as a special for
$199 - the B3 is normally $169 and VTB-1 is normally $129). I'd spend a
little more and get Shure SM57 too if you don't already have one, and you
can really cover a lot of ground.

The VTB-1 preamp is where the "warmth" is going to come it, it's got a
variable tube section in it. The B3 will be very good for vocals and
acoustic guitar, and the SM57 is great for micing guitar cabs. You could
certainly try the B3 on electric guitar too. Compared to using the preamps
in whatever mixer you're likely to have - the VTB-1 will surely blow them
away. You can run the SM57 through it too.

There are people that say the Studio Projects C1 sounds just like a Neumann
U87 (there are reviews on the ProRec site) - that is surely a matter of
opinion but what is not in question is that Studio Projects mics sound a lot
more expensive than they are. For you budget, I really do not think you
could do any better.



"hassy_user" <tempforward7@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1103824161.641279.157590@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>I am a newbie interested in buying a mic for all-around recording of
> guitar (electric), vocals, electric bass, and whatever else I find. I
> want to get the most subtle detail possible, over the widest frequency
> range, while adding some warmth to compensate for the fact that I'm
> recording to a computer through a 24/96 interface.
>
> It looks from the specs I've been reading that a condenser is the way
> to go, since they have a broader frequency range. Am I correct in my
> conclusion? What are the advantages of a dynamic? Can one mike a
> guitar amp at close range with a condenser, as you would with an SM-57,
> and what effect would it have on a lower-frequency distorted sound
> (think 'Sister Ray')?
>
> Sorry for all of the basic questions, but after reading hundreds of
> archived posts from this group, I'm actually more confused The issue
> of warmth was occasionally addressed, but the answer usually ended up
> as "save up for the Neumann", which is not an option for me.
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Chris
>

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

hassy_user wrote:

> I am a newbie interested in buying a mic for all-around recording of
> guitar (electric), vocals, electric bass, and whatever else I find. I
> want to get the most subtle detail possible, over the widest frequency
> range, while adding some warmth to compensate for the fact that I'm
> recording to a computer through a 24/96 interface.
>
> It looks from the specs I've been reading that a condenser is the way
> to go, since they have a broader frequency range. Am I correct in my
> conclusion? What are the advantages of a dynamic? Can one mike a
> guitar amp at close range with a condenser, as you would with an SM-57,
> and what effect would it have on a lower-frequency distorted sound
> (think 'Sister Ray')?
>
> Sorry for all of the basic questions, but after reading hundreds of
> archived posts from this group, I'm actually more confused The issue
> of warmth was occasionally addressed, but the answer usually ended up
> as "save up for the Neumann", which is not an option for me.
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Chris


If you want one mic to do it all, & $200 is a hard limit. you won't go
wrong with a 57. Plus, you can get 2 of them & still stay in your budget.
(If you get 'em by Dec 31, you can get a $10 rebate per mic from Shure.)
Or you could get a 57 & a EV 635a & have some variety.

"Warmth" as applied to sound is an essentially meaningless term. Besides,
there's no reason a 24/96 interface should need to be compensated for.
There may be issues upstream, but 24/96 provides more frequency & dynamic
range than you'll ever need.

Published specs tell you what the manufacturer wants you to know & not much
more. What good is a mic that goes up to 20KHz if it sounds shreaky above
15KHz?

Dynamics & condensers both have advantages & disadvantages. With a $200
budget, one big advantage of dynamics is that it's easier to build a good
dynamic at a low price point than it is to build a good condenser at a low
price point. A good dynamic is better than a bad condenser.

Some condensers do fine right up on a loud guitar amp. Some don't.

Neumann, Scheumann! They make some fine mics. So do a lot of other
companies. You certainly don't need a Neumann to make a really good
recording.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> I am a newbie interested in buying a mic for all-around recording of
> guitar (electric), vocals, electric bass, and whatever else I find. I
> want to get the most subtle detail possible, over the widest frequency
> range, while adding some warmth to compensate for the fact that I'm
> recording to a computer through a 24/96 interface.

Join the club. Well, take some schooling first, then join the club...

> It looks from the specs I've been reading that a condenser is the way
> to go, since they have a broader frequency range. Am I correct in my
> conclusion? What are the advantages of a dynamic? Can one mike a
> guitar amp at close range with a condenser, as you would with an SM-57,
> and what effect would it have on a lower-frequency distorted sound
> (think 'Sister Ray')?

Micing guitar amps is rarely an issue where mic selection is critical. If
it doesn't sound good with a 57, chances are it's a problem upstream.

> Sorry for all of the basic questions, but after reading hundreds of
> archived posts from this group, I'm actually more confused The issue
> of warmth was occasionally addressed, but the answer usually ended up
> as "save up for the Neumann", which is not an option for me.

Warmth isn't something a mic can provide, it's something that is lost with
the wrong recording technique, assuming it was ever there. Mic selection is
just a part of the process. Warmth is also something that isn't desireable
in all cases.

I don't want to discourage you from learning, only from the idea that this
forum is adequate training in itself. It's more about discussing
differences of opinion, which abound.

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jonny Durango wrote:

> I would agree with both of these posts....the SM57 is a must for mic'ing
> guitar cabs and is also a standard for live vocals (and just FYI it's a
> moving coil mic, not a condenser)...I've heard good things about the SP C1
> and the 635A is a very rugged mic that is good for warm bassy vocals,

It's good for a lot of things, but it actually has very little bass (rolls
off at about 80Hz) and no proximity effect (being an omni).


> and
> as such is an industry standard for dialouge in the ENG world....plus it
> acquired the nickname "The Hammer" for it's sturdy construction.
>
> Remember that to achieve a warm sound, you'll want mainly two
> things....accentuated lower frequencies, which means either a high freq
> cut or a low-mid freq boost....

Some folks call it warm, others call it muddy...


> so look at the frequency response curves
> and stay away from mics which ramp up above 2-3k....

Published frequency response curves typically have very little to do with
reality. There's just no substitute for your ears.


> you'll also want
> slower transient response to reduce that sharp, crisp sound.....this means
> you'll want to stay away from small diaphragm condensers and stick with
> the large......

Huh? Compared a KM140 to a C3000 lately?


> since the SM57 is a moving coil mic it will have very slow
> transient response.
>
> You might also want to check out Oktava's line of large diaphragm
> condensers. I started out using their MK319 which is an incredible mic for
> the $99 (new) price tag....used they can be had for around $70,

Oktava mics are no place for bargain hunting. Their quality control is
next to nil. If you want Oktava, get 'em from the Sound Room. They buy by
the boatload & do their own QC.


> which will
> still alow you to pick up an SM57 and have a tiny budget left over for a
> preamp,

Let's see... That's an Oktava for $70. 57s are going to be around $80 -
$90 (minus the $10 Shure rebate). He's starting out with $200. That
leaves $50 $60 for a preamp. About the best thing going in that range is
going to be a Behring UB802 (which is a nice little mixer for what it is,
but a waste of money if he's already got a decent mixer).


> which is a whole new subject....remember that a preamp will affect
> the microphone's sound just as much as a guitar amp will affect the
> guitar's sound......if you plug a Neumann U47 into a junky little preamp
> *cringe*

What other kind can you get for $50 - $60?

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> It's good for a lot of things, but it actually has very little bass (rolls
> off at about 80Hz) and no proximity effect (being an omni).

Well I don't know too many vocalists who operate below 80hz

> Published frequency response curves typically have very little to do with
> reality. There's just no substitute for your ears.

true....but that's no reason to ignore them....they'll give you an idea how
the mic sounds and for a novice you doesn't have well-trained ears they are
a good resource.

> Huh? Compared a KM140 to a C3000 lately?

SDC's generally have faster transient response due to the very nature of
their design....compared to an SM57 and most LDC's I'd say both of these
mics have quick transient response.

> Oktava mics are no place for bargain hunting. Their quality control is
> next to nil. If you want Oktava, get 'em from the Sound Room. They buy
by
> the boatload & do their own QC.

I've got some great sounding Oktavas straight from GC....I also got a bum
219 and they replaced it no questions asked. I just ordered a very
well-matched pair of MK012's from GC and they threw in two shock mounts and
free shipping for an even $250....tested their response and compared it to
the factory spec sheets provided and they are very close, not off by more
than 2db in a couple spots, and 1-2db in overall sensetivity, which is well
within an acceptable margin of error. Soundroom charges $426 + shipping for
a pair that doesn't include shockmounts. Now which is the bargain? While I'm
sure the SR stuff is more consistent and evenly matched than GC's, it's also
twice the money....for that price I could almost buy a used pair of
KM184's....btw, if you've never tried a pair or 012's, they sound incredible
and they get great reviews all over usenet

--

Jonny Durango

"Patrick was a saint. I ain't."

http://www.jdurango.com



"agent86" <maxwellsmart@control.gov> wrote in message
news:AwXyd.44$Fu4.1@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> Jonny Durango wrote:
>
> > I would agree with both of these posts....the SM57 is a must for mic'ing
> > guitar cabs and is also a standard for live vocals (and just FYI it's a
> > moving coil mic, not a condenser)...I've heard good things about the SP
C1
> > and the 635A is a very rugged mic that is good for warm bassy vocals,
>
> It's good for a lot of things, but it actually has very little bass (rolls
> off at about 80Hz) and no proximity effect (being an omni).
>
>
> > and
> > as such is an industry standard for dialouge in the ENG world....plus it
> > acquired the nickname "The Hammer" for it's sturdy construction.
> >
> > Remember that to achieve a warm sound, you'll want mainly two
> > things....accentuated lower frequencies, which means either a high freq
> > cut or a low-mid freq boost....
>
> Some folks call it warm, others call it muddy...
>
>
> > so look at the frequency response curves
> > and stay away from mics which ramp up above 2-3k....
>
> Published frequency response curves typically have very little to do with
> reality. There's just no substitute for your ears.
>
>
> > you'll also want
> > slower transient response to reduce that sharp, crisp sound.....this
means
> > you'll want to stay away from small diaphragm condensers and stick with
> > the large......
>
> Huh? Compared a KM140 to a C3000 lately?
>
>
> > since the SM57 is a moving coil mic it will have very slow
> > transient response.
> >
> > You might also want to check out Oktava's line of large diaphragm
> > condensers. I started out using their MK319 which is an incredible mic
for
> > the $99 (new) price tag....used they can be had for around $70,
>
> Oktava mics are no place for bargain hunting. Their quality control is
> next to nil. If you want Oktava, get 'em from the Sound Room. They buy
by
> the boatload & do their own QC.
>
>
> > which will
> > still alow you to pick up an SM57 and have a tiny budget left over for a
> > preamp,
>
> Let's see... That's an Oktava for $70. 57s are going to be around $80 -
> $90 (minus the $10 Shure rebate). He's starting out with $200. That
> leaves $50 $60 for a preamp. About the best thing going in that range is
> going to be a Behring UB802 (which is a nice little mixer for what it is,
> but a waste of money if he's already got a decent mixer).
>
>
> > which is a whole new subject....remember that a preamp will affect
> > the microphone's sound just as much as a guitar amp will affect the
> > guitar's sound......if you plug a Neumann U47 into a junky little preamp
> > *cringe*
>
> What other kind can you get for $50 - $60?
>
>
>

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> Another way of saying this is that the U87 is much more expensive than
> it sounds.
>
> Norm Strong
>
>
LOL