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A Recording studio inside a 3-phase industrial facility...

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Anonymous
December 26, 2004 11:50:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I am renting space in an industrial facility in PA, USA known as a
local "incubator" for small business. Rent is good, neighbours are
great, several cool reverb chambers around, lots of space, life is
good.

I have 3 rooms (1=control room, 2=drum/live room, 3=isobooths/workshop
area). The electrical panel is a 225 amp, 120/208v, 3phase, 4wire,
SquareD box. It is labelled "LP13" and right next to it is a much
bigger box labelled "PP2" which is locked. So, "PP2" feeds the 3phase
power into "LP13". "LP13" in turn feeds the vaious lights and outlets
in my space.

After thoroughly analyzing inside the box, I have learned that there
used to be six 3-phase machines like "Chiller" and "Grinder" etc.
Niow they are unused and terminate with covered 4" junction boxes.
The various 120v outlets are split up amongst the 3 phases. Some
outlets are on the blue phase, some outlets are on the red phase and
some outlets are on the black phase.

I just moved some wires around so that all fluorescent lights,
fridges, heaters, internet computers etc are on the black or red
phases and the blue phase is completely unused EXCEPT the two 120v
circuits that I will use for all audio gear.

I did a deja search to see if this was good and I got mixed answers.
Some people have said that splitting a 3phase set-up into 3 different
120v systems is fine as long as all grounding is done properly, and
some people said not to do it, but to get a single phase service run
in. I will use it like it is now until someone convinces me not to.

At this point my biggest concern is... I am wondering what happens
when I connect the internet computer (black phase) to the audio
computer (blue phase) when I wanna listen to the internet radio over
the good speakers. I'll send the audio balanced, but with the grounds
connected on both sides. (Mackie 1202 XLR sending(blackphase) --> RME
multiface TRS input receiving(bluephase)).

All my grounding is done properly with no lifting of anykind!!
Any words of advice or wisdom?

thx,
frenchy
December 26, 2004 11:50:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

they call me frenchy wrote:
> I am renting space in an industrial facility in PA, USA known as a
> local "incubator" for small business. Rent is good, neighbours are
> great, several cool reverb chambers around, lots of space, life is
> good.
>
> I have 3 rooms (1=control room, 2=drum/live room,
3=isobooths/workshop
> area). The electrical panel is a 225 amp, 120/208v, 3phase, 4wire,
> SquareD box. It is labelled "LP13" and right next to it is a much
> bigger box labelled "PP2" which is locked. So, "PP2" feeds the
3phase
> power into "LP13". "LP13" in turn feeds the vaious lights and
outlets
> in my space.
>
> After thoroughly analyzing inside the box, I have learned that there
> used to be six 3-phase machines like "Chiller" and "Grinder" etc.
> Niow they are unused and terminate with covered 4" junction boxes.
> The various 120v outlets are split up amongst the 3 phases. Some
> outlets are on the blue phase, some outlets are on the red phase and
> some outlets are on the black phase.
>
> I just moved some wires around so that all fluorescent lights,
> fridges, heaters, internet computers etc are on the black or red
> phases and the blue phase is completely unused EXCEPT the two 120v
> circuits that I will use for all audio gear.
>
> I did a deja search to see if this was good and I got mixed answers.
> Some people have said that splitting a 3phase set-up into 3 different
> 120v systems is fine as long as all grounding is done properly, and
> some people said not to do it, but to get a single phase service run
> in. I will use it like it is now until someone convinces me not to.
>
> At this point my biggest concern is... I am wondering what happens
> when I connect the internet computer (black phase) to the audio
> computer (blue phase) when I wanna listen to the internet radio over
> the good speakers. I'll send the audio balanced, but with the
grounds
> connected on both sides. (Mackie 1202 XLR sending(blackphase) --> RME
> multiface TRS input receiving(bluephase)).
>
> All my grounding is done properly with no lifting of anykind!!
> Any words of advice or wisdom?
>
> thx,
> frenchy


You should be ok as long as you have all your stuff on a common ground.

And don't unbalance the load on the phases too too much.
Where in PA are you, I'm in the Philly burbs.

Mark
Anonymous
December 27, 2004 2:32:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 20:50:22 -0500, they call me frenchy
<frenchy*NO*@*SPAM*houseofharmonystudios.com> wrote:

>I did a deja search to see if this was good and I got mixed answers.
>Some people have said that splitting a 3phase set-up into 3 different
>120v systems is fine as long as all grounding is done properly, and
>some people said not to do it, but to get a single phase service run
>in. I will use it like it is now until someone convinces me not to.

You've GOT a single phase service. You've just got two more of them
as well.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
Related resources
Anonymous
December 27, 2004 6:04:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:41:19 -0800, DeserTBoB <desertb@rglobal.net>
wrote:

>Must be more than 20 years old. The "black" phase is supposed to be
>white. RED, WHITE, BLUE = A, B, C @ 208/220 VAC
....
>dB
>IBEW Local 11 and 1011

Desert Bob,

I hope you don't mind fielding a dumb question from Canada, but I'm
confused by the new patriotic US wiring colours (oops, colors).

If WHITE is now used for Phase 2 in the US, what colour do you use for
neutral?

Or are you just pulling some poor amateur's leg?

Mike T., gullible Canuck
December 27, 2004 7:34:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

they call me frenchy wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:36:16 GMT, Dale Farmer <dale@cybercom.net>
> wrote:
>
> >> I just moved some wires around so that all fluorescent lights,
> >> fridges, heaters, internet computers etc are on the black or red
> >> phases and the blue phase is completely unused EXCEPT the two 120v
> >> circuits that I will use for all audio gear.
> >>
> >
> > Bad. You have unbalanced the load between the three phases. If
you
> >have done enough of it, the power company will notice, and hit you
with
> >abnormal usage charges. You also noticeably increase the fire
hazard
> >of the facility, because of potential of transformer overload.
> > Hire a locally licensed electrician to come into your facility
to do
> >things
> >correctly and safely.
>
>
> I agree about your point to hire a pro to do it safely. With regard
> to me causing an unbalanced load between the 3 phases....When I
> stepped foot through the door for the 1st time (before renting), the
> phases were unbalanced. Some outlets on one phase, some on another,
> the heater blower on another. I moved 240w worth of fluorescent
> lights from one phase to another. In the grand scheme of everything,
> isnt this extremely minimal? If anything, I think my change caused
> the 3 phases to be used more evenly. Maybe they should credit my
> account?
>
>
> > Splitting the phases has become, for reasons that escape me,
since
> >it doesn't actually work, part of the mythology of recording. Go
read up
> >on the pin 1 problem, which is what it is an attempt to resolve.
> >
>
>
> Everything is working fine, so it actually does work, but I will get
> the yamaha book as you suggest below.
>
> thx,
> frenchy
>
> <snip>

Yeah, I was cautioning against creating a LARGE unblance in the phases.
240 Watts is not large.

But on the other hand, I don't think you helped anything either by
rewiring everything.

Mark
Anonymous
December 27, 2004 8:14:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 26 Dec 2004 19:53:28 -0800, "Mark" <makolber@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>
>You should be ok as long as you have all your stuff on a common ground.
>
>And don't unbalance the load on the phases too too much.
>Where in PA are you, I'm in the Philly burbs.
>
>Mark

All the stuff is definitely on a common ground.

When I walked through the door for the 1st time, the phases were
already unbalanced by small things like outlets and fluorescent
lights.

It is amazing how different peoples responses are to this topic, some
people say it is OK and other people scream bloody murder.

I am in the opposite corner of PA, directly south of buffalo, just
crossed the border into PA.

thx,
frenchy
Anonymous
December 27, 2004 8:26:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:32:13 +0000, Laurence Payne
<l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>You've GOT a single phase service. You've just got two more of them
>as well.
>

I wish it were as simple as your answer!!!! If it is that simple,
then why are some people spitting fire with regards to this topic?

Some people are insisting that I should actually ask for a single
phase service, which completely contradicts your answer.

I am curious to see how much extra the power company charges me for
altering the phase balance by 200W worth of fluorescent lights that
are only on half the day.

thx,
frenchy
Anonymous
December 27, 2004 11:36:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

they call me frenchy wrote:

> I am renting space in an industrial facility in PA, USA known as a
> local "incubator" for small business. Rent is good, neighbours are
> great, several cool reverb chambers around, lots of space, life is
> good.
>
> I have 3 rooms (1=control room, 2=drum/live room, 3=isobooths/workshop
> area). The electrical panel is a 225 amp, 120/208v, 3phase, 4wire,
> SquareD box. It is labelled "LP13" and right next to it is a much
> bigger box labelled "PP2" which is locked. So, "PP2" feeds the 3phase
> power into "LP13". "LP13" in turn feeds the vaious lights and outlets
> in my space.
>
> After thoroughly analyzing inside the box, I have learned that there
> used to be six 3-phase machines like "Chiller" and "Grinder" etc.
> Niow they are unused and terminate with covered 4" junction boxes.
> The various 120v outlets are split up amongst the 3 phases. Some
> outlets are on the blue phase, some outlets are on the red phase and
> some outlets are on the black phase.
>
> I just moved some wires around so that all fluorescent lights,
> fridges, heaters, internet computers etc are on the black or red
> phases and the blue phase is completely unused EXCEPT the two 120v
> circuits that I will use for all audio gear.
>

Bad. You have unbalanced the load between the three phases. If you
have done enough of it, the power company will notice, and hit you with
abnormal usage charges. You also noticeably increase the fire hazard
of the facility, because of potential of transformer overload.
Hire a locally licensed electrician to come into your facility to do
things
correctly and safely.

>
> I did a deja search to see if this was good and I got mixed answers.
> Some people have said that splitting a 3phase set-up into 3 different
> 120v systems is fine as long as all grounding is done properly, and
> some people said not to do it, but to get a single phase service run
> in. I will use it like it is now until someone convinces me not to.
>

Splitting the phases has become, for reasons that escape me, since
it doesn't actually work, part of the mythology of recording. Go read up
on the pin 1 problem, which is what it is an attempt to resolve.

>
> At this point my biggest concern is... I am wondering what happens
> when I connect the internet computer (black phase) to the audio
> computer (blue phase) when I wanna listen to the internet radio over
> the good speakers. I'll send the audio balanced, but with the grounds
> connected on both sides. (Mackie 1202 XLR sending(blackphase) --> RME
> multiface TRS input receiving(bluephase)).
>
> All my grounding is done properly with no lifting of anykind!!
> Any words of advice or wisdom?

You have performed unlicensed electrical work in a property you do
not own, which is a violation of city law pretty much everywhere in the
US. I bet you didn't pull an electrical work permit either. That is good

for another hefty fine. Wouldn't surprise me if this also violates your
lease agreement with the incubator facility.

Get the yamaha sound reinforcement handbook. Hire a locally licensed
electrician that is approved by the landlord and have him/her read the
chapters on grounds and power. Then have them put your place back
into compliance with code and suitable for your desired uses. You want
isolated ground receptacles, mostly.

--Dale
Anonymous
December 27, 2004 11:36:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:36:16 GMT, Dale Farmer <dale@cybercom.net>
wrote:

>> I just moved some wires around so that all fluorescent lights,
>> fridges, heaters, internet computers etc are on the black or red
>> phases and the blue phase is completely unused EXCEPT the two 120v
>> circuits that I will use for all audio gear.
>>
>
> Bad. You have unbalanced the load between the three phases. If you
>have done enough of it, the power company will notice, and hit you with
>abnormal usage charges. You also noticeably increase the fire hazard
>of the facility, because of potential of transformer overload.
> Hire a locally licensed electrician to come into your facility to do
>things
>correctly and safely.


I agree about your point to hire a pro to do it safely. With regard
to me causing an unbalanced load between the 3 phases....When I
stepped foot through the door for the 1st time (before renting), the
phases were unbalanced. Some outlets on one phase, some on another,
the heater blower on another. I moved 240w worth of fluorescent
lights from one phase to another. In the grand scheme of everything,
isnt this extremely minimal? If anything, I think my change caused
the 3 phases to be used more evenly. Maybe they should credit my
account?



> Splitting the phases has become, for reasons that escape me, since
>it doesn't actually work, part of the mythology of recording. Go read up
>on the pin 1 problem, which is what it is an attempt to resolve.
>


Everything is working fine, so it actually does work, but I will get
the yamaha book as you suggest below.

thx,
frenchy

<snip>
Anonymous
December 27, 2004 11:36:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:37:20 -0500, they call me frenchy
<frenchy*NO*@*SPAM*houseofharmonystudios.com> wrote:

>I agree about your point to hire a pro to do it safely. With regard
>to me causing an unbalanced load between the 3 phases....When I
>stepped foot through the door for the 1st time (before renting), the
>phases were unbalanced. Some outlets on one phase, some on another,
>the heater blower on another. <snip>

That's called a "balanced load."

>I moved 240w worth of fluorescent
>lights from one phase to another. In the grand scheme of everything,
>isnt this extremely minimal? <snip>

Keep your lighting load spread among all three phases to keep power
factor in line.

>If anything, I think my change caused
>the 3 phases to be used more evenly. Maybe they should credit my
>account? <snip>

Bad thinking. When one is balancing panels, one has to consider load
AND power factor. Putting a bunch of flourescent ballasts all on one
phase is NOT good practice, and it you have load balance/power
factor/peak metering, you'll get tagged by your utility.

>Everything is working fine, so it actually does work, but I will get
>the yamaha book as you suggest below. <snip>

Forget the "Yama-ha-ha-ha" book...you're dealing with power now.
Restore the panels the way you found them at the very least, or get a
licensed engineer to do a load schedule for you. Your statement
reminds me of some adled-brained gee-tawr player years ago, who said,
after connecting the 16 ohm winding of an output transformer to an
effective 2 ohm load, "Everything sounds fine!"...not long before the
transformer fried.

dB
Anonymous
December 28, 2004 12:07:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

they call me frenchy wrote:

> I am renting space in an industrial facility in PA, USA known as a
> local "incubator" for small business. Rent is good, neighbours are
> great, several cool reverb chambers around, lots of space, life is
> good.
>
> I have 3 rooms (1=control room, 2=drum/live room, 3=isobooths/workshop
> area). The electrical panel is a 225 amp, 120/208v, 3phase, 4wire,
> SquareD box. It is labelled "LP13" and right next to it is a much
> bigger box labelled "PP2" which is locked. So, "PP2" feeds the 3phase
> power into "LP13". "LP13" in turn feeds the vaious lights and outlets
> in my space.
>
> After thoroughly analyzing inside the box, I have learned that there
> used to be six 3-phase machines like "Chiller" and "Grinder" etc.
> Niow they are unused and terminate with covered 4" junction boxes.
> The various 120v outlets are split up amongst the 3 phases. Some
> outlets are on the blue phase, some outlets are on the red phase and
> some outlets are on the black phase.
>
> I just moved some wires around so that all fluorescent lights,
> fridges, heaters, internet computers etc are on the black or red
> phases and the blue phase is completely unused EXCEPT the two 120v
> circuits that I will use for all audio gear.

Okay, it's not Black Magic.

What you've done is create a phase imbalance on your site. In
commercial power, the power company will charge you:

1. Extra for peak-hours usage--so all-night sessions aren't such a bad
thing.

2. Extra for imbalanced phases.

3. Extra for power factor much different from 1.

They'll happily burn you on items 2 and 3 they way you've set things up.

They put a SERIOUS amount of effort into finigaling what seem to be
teensy efficiency improvements . .until you realize they measure energy
in the billions of kWh.

Long story short, you need a licensed electrician and perhaps even a
consultation with a good EE who understands load balancing and the
special needs of audio.

There are all sorts of things you can do to improve your power factor
that are non-intuitive but which are routinely done in commercial power
installations.

Spend a bit of money now and save long-term.

Your land lord will appreciate your not doing unauthorized electrical
work as well.
Anonymous
December 28, 2004 2:45:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:04:57 GMT, Mike T. <miket@invalid.net> wrote:

>I hope you don't mind fielding a dumb question from Canada <snip>

I don't know of any "dumb questions" from Canada. After all, they
CERTAINLY must be smarter that we!

>... but I'm
>confused by the new patriotic US wiring colours (oops, colors). <snip>

Not new at all.
>
>If WHITE is now used for Phase 2 in the US, what colour do you use for
>neutral? <snip>

Slate or grey.

The code doesn't require these color tags, by the way...a major fault
of code. The only requirements, per se, are to mark a "wild leg" of a
grounded leg delta as being orange, and that "grounded conductors" be
marked white or slate/grey. Their requirements also vary with
conductor size, another confusion. Beware of white ALWAYS meaning
neutral to the exclusion of all others. For example,
brown/orange/yellow always denotes 277/480 VAC, but white NEVER
denotes neutral at that voltage. In 277 single phase applications,
slate/grey is ALWAYS neutral, never white. However, in derived 117
from a 208/4 panel, you can have a single phase run from any phase and
have the ground return as white. In 240/3 "wild leg" deltas, you'd
see red/ORANGE/blue/white, the orange being the "wild leg," with white
being the center tapped neutral, grounded at the service entrance.
The "wild leg" is always the B phase, also.

The NEC is loose and sloppy, inflitrated as it has been over the years
by the interests of manufacturers, wholesalers and contractors, rather
than to promote uniformity and safety above all other
concerns...something it was charged to do in the first place. How
typically American!

dB
Anonymous
December 28, 2004 3:14:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

they call me frenchy wrote:

> I wish it were as simple as your answer!!!! If it is that simple,
> then why are some people spitting fire with regards to this topic?

Perhaps because you obviously don't know very well what you're doing and
proper handling of electrical service(s) is important for things far
more serious than audio recording. There are times when one can
demonstrate intelligence by employing a professional.

--
ha
Anonymous
December 28, 2004 2:44:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

they call me frenchy <frenchy*NO*@*SPAM*houseofharmonystudios.com> wrote:
>
>I did a deja search to see if this was good and I got mixed answers.
>Some people have said that splitting a 3phase set-up into 3 different
>120v systems is fine as long as all grounding is done properly, and
>some people said not to do it, but to get a single phase service run
>in. I will use it like it is now until someone convinces me not to.

If the three-phase stuff has big three-phase loads on it, this is bad.
If you basically have a huge three-phase service all to yourself, it's
fine. And if you are running the phases unevenly loaded, that's fine
too since you have such a tiny total load compared with the load the
service is designed for.

>At this point my biggest concern is... I am wondering what happens
>when I connect the internet computer (black phase) to the audio
>computer (blue phase) when I wanna listen to the internet radio over
>the good speakers. I'll send the audio balanced, but with the grounds
>connected on both sides. (Mackie 1202 XLR sending(blackphase) --> RME
>multiface TRS input receiving(bluephase)).

The same thing that happens in your house when you have the computer on
one leg and the audio system on the other leg.

>All my grounding is done properly with no lifting of anykind!!
>Any words of advice or wisdom?

If there is a noise problem, lift the signal grounds. And stop worrying
so much.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
December 28, 2004 4:43:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 00:14:26 GMT, walkinay@thegrid.net (hank alrich)
wrote:

>they call me frenchy wrote:
>
>> I wish it were as simple as your answer!!!! If it is that simple,
>> then why are some people spitting fire with regards to this topic?
>
>Perhaps because you obviously don't know very well what you're doing and
>proper handling of electrical service(s) is important for things far
>more serious than audio recording. There are times when one can
>demonstrate intelligence by employing a professional.

I always respect your answers/opinions. In life, people must decide
between trying to learn to do something themselves and just hiring
someone else to do it for them. I suppose that topics this serious
(power) are not to be "learnt" in a public forum...and if you choose
to do it yourself, you get formally certified, period.

Indeed I will be contacting the power company to have them recommend
which way to proceed. It has been very informative and interesting
seeing everyones stance on this.

thx,
frenchy
Anonymous
December 28, 2004 5:13:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 28 Dec 2004 11:44:08 -0500, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>If the three-phase stuff has big three-phase loads on it, this is bad.
>If you basically have a huge three-phase service all to yourself, it's
>fine. And if you are running the phases unevenly loaded, that's fine
>too since you have such a tiny total load compared with the load the
>service is designed for.

Indeed that is the case. I have a huge 3 phase service with nothing
on it save for a couple fluorescent "house lights" that are off during
recording, some christmas mood lights, about a 100watts total of audio
gear when idling and a mini fridge. The heater blower kicks on
everyonce in a while and I just climbed up to see that it is rated at
115v/1A which is pretty small too. I think I use the most power when
a guitar player brings in a marshall stack.


>>At this point my biggest concern is... I am wondering what happens
>>when I connect the internet computer (black phase) to the audio
>>computer (blue phase) when I wanna listen to the internet radio over
>>the good speakers. I'll send the audio balanced, but with the grounds
>>connected on both sides. (Mackie 1202 XLR sending(blackphase) --> RME
>>multiface TRS input receiving(bluephase)).
>
>The same thing that happens in your house when you have the computer on
>one leg and the audio system on the other leg.
>
>>All my grounding is done properly with no lifting of anykind!!
>>Any words of advice or wisdom?
>
>If there is a noise problem, lift the signal grounds. And stop worrying
>so much.
>--scott

amen.
thx again,
frenchy
Anonymous
December 28, 2004 5:52:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

they call me frenchy <frenchy*NO*@*SPAM*houseofharmonystudios.com> wrote:
>On 28 Dec 2004 11:44:08 -0500, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>>If the three-phase stuff has big three-phase loads on it, this is bad.
>>If you basically have a huge three-phase service all to yourself, it's
>>fine. And if you are running the phases unevenly loaded, that's fine
>>too since you have such a tiny total load compared with the load the
>>service is designed for.
>
>Indeed that is the case. I have a huge 3 phase service with nothing
>on it save for a couple fluorescent "house lights" that are off during
>recording, some christmas mood lights, about a 100watts total of audio
>gear when idling and a mini fridge. The heater blower kicks on
>everyonce in a while and I just climbed up to see that it is rated at
>115v/1A which is pretty small too. I think I use the most power when
>a guitar player brings in a marshall stack.

Just get rid of the fluorescents. Not only are they a nasty load that
can make for trouble if you have a lot of them, not only are they common
sources of noise leaking into audio signals, but they also make people
look green.

You cannot be mellow when you look green.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Anonymous
December 28, 2004 6:10:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

they call me frenchy <frenchy*NO*@*SPAM*houseofharmonystudios.com> writes:

> When I walked through the door for the 1st time, the phases were
> already unbalanced by small things like outlets and fluorescent
> lights.

All the outlet in a single room should be on the SAME phase. This way
you only get to eat phase to ground when you dick with it, rather than
possibly phase to phase. This is a common saftey requirment. For
recording and studio instalations you should give serious thought to
having the entire studio/control-room etc on a single phase due to the
wiring between the two.

Oh, and mark the GPOs so you know for sure which circuit they are on.
Ground for EVERY outlet should be a given, unless you are tired of
breathing.

--
Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
West Australia 6076
comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.
Anonymous
December 28, 2004 6:10:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:10:45 +0800, prep@prep.synonet.com wrote:

>they call me frenchy <frenchy*NO*@*SPAM*houseofharmonystudios.com> writes:
>
>> When I walked through the door for the 1st time, the phases were
>> already unbalanced by small things like outlets and fluorescent
>> lights.
>
>All the outlet in a single room should be on the SAME phase. This way
>you only get to eat phase to ground when you dick with it, rather than
>possibly phase to phase. This is a common saftey requirment. For
>recording and studio instalations you should give serious thought to
>having the entire studio/control-room etc on a single phase due to the
>wiring between the two.
>
>Oh, and mark the GPOs so you know for sure which circuit they are on.
>Ground for EVERY outlet should be a given, unless you are tired of
>breathing.


The interesting thing is that before I even started renting the space
there already existed in one room an outlet on the red phase and
another outlet on the black phase.

I respect all those who are yelling at me and telling me I am a fool
for messing around, but honestly it sounds like I am actually making
things safer by opening this can of worms, as opposed to just plugging
in blind on multiple phases the way it WAS set-up before moving in.

Oh, and what the hell are GPOs?

thx,
frenchy
Anonymous
December 28, 2004 6:21:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:37:20 -0500, they call me frenchy
<frenchy*NO*@*SPAM*houseofharmonystudios.com> wrote:
>
> I agree about your point to hire a pro to do it safely. With regard
> to me causing an unbalanced load between the 3 phases....When I
> stepped foot through the door for the 1st time (before renting), the
> phases were unbalanced. Some outlets on one phase, some on another,
> the heater blower on another. I moved 240w worth of fluorescent
> lights from one phase to another. In the grand scheme of everything,
> isnt this extremely minimal? If anything, I think my change caused
> the 3 phases to be used more evenly. Maybe they should credit my
> account?
>

Nope. Remember I said, "Non intuitive."

It is common (iirc--I may be confabulating, which is why you should hire
an EE or an electrician and not an embedded systems engineer who's a
frustrated musician)

First, three phase is, in general a Very Good Thing. 3ph motors are
cheaper and smaller for equivalant HP. You want all your big
motors--blowers, AC compressors, etc, running on 3ph. You might even
consider getting a three phase refridgerator.

Second, fluroescent lights should be distributed across all three
phases. They provide a nice power factor correction to the loads of
your motors.

PLEASE, don't listen to us. Remember, we're all a bunch of well-trained
St. Bernards, and we've been nipping from those barrels we carry on our
collars--don't bet your life or your insurance premium on your advice.

Hire an electrician and do it right.
Anonymous
December 28, 2004 6:21:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:21:21 GMT, "U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles" <"Charles
Krug"@aol.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:37:20 -0500, they call me frenchy
><frenchy*NO*@*SPAM*houseofharmonystudios.com> wrote:
>>
>> I agree about your point to hire a pro to do it safely. With regard
>> to me causing an unbalanced load between the 3 phases....When I
>> stepped foot through the door for the 1st time (before renting), the
>> phases were unbalanced. Some outlets on one phase, some on another,
>> the heater blower on another. I moved 240w worth of fluorescent
>> lights from one phase to another. In the grand scheme of everything,
>> isnt this extremely minimal? If anything, I think my change caused
>> the 3 phases to be used more evenly. Maybe they should credit my
>> account?
>>
>
>Nope. Remember I said, "Non intuitive."
>
>It is common (iirc--I may be confabulating, which is why you should hire
>an EE or an electrician and not an embedded systems engineer who's a
>frustrated musician)
>
>First, three phase is, in general a Very Good Thing. 3ph motors are
>cheaper and smaller for equivalant HP. You want all your big
>motors--blowers, AC compressors, etc, running on 3ph. You might even
>consider getting a three phase refridgerator.
>
>Second, fluroescent lights should be distributed across all three
>phases. They provide a nice power factor correction to the loads of
>your motors.
>
>PLEASE, don't listen to us. Remember, we're all a bunch of well-trained
>St. Bernards, and we've been nipping from those barrels we carry on our
>collars--don't bet your life or your insurance premium on your advice.
>
>Hire an electrician and do it right.


thank you for your input and I agree.
The frustrating part is that most licensed electricians in backwoods,
USA dont know a thing about studio power requirements. I am not
saying that I do either, but I am trying to get my ducks in a row
before paying some licensed guy alot of $$ to come in and do things
wrong for a studio, but up to code. In an ideal world, I will be able
to answer all his questions about why I need things a certain way and
then pay him to do it.

thx,
frenchy
Anonymous
December 28, 2004 6:21:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Tve, 28 Dec 2004 15:21:21 GMT, "U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles" <"Charles
Krvg"@aol.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:37:20 -0500, they call me frenchy

>First, three phase is, in general a Very Good Thing. 3ph motors are
>cheaper and smaller for eqvivalant HP. Yov want all yovr big
>motors--blowers, AC compressors, etc, rvnning on 3ph. Yov might even
>consider getting a three phase refridgerator. <snip>

Amen. Rvnning efficiency of 3 phase motors is always higher than any
single phase eqvivalent.

>Second, flvroescent lights shovld be distribvted across all three
>phases. They provide a nice power factor correction to the loads of
>yovr motors. <snip>

Exactly. What he's done is screw vp his power factor, so that one
phase will be closer to vnity than the others...something that drives
vtilities nvts, and will, if the local distribvtion has an avtomatic
cap bank nearby, will cavse inexplicable voltage perterbations as the
cap bank "hvnts" back and forth, trying to correct the imbalance.

>Hire an electrician and do it right. <snip>

....and by electician, he doesn't mean some fly-by-nighter working ovt
of the back of his station wagon, either. Those gvys vsvally know
little (if anything) more than yov do. Get a good vnion contractor,
do it right the first time.

dB
Anonymous
December 29, 2004 2:55:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 13:54:27 -0500, they call me frenchy
<frenchy*NO*@*SPAM*houseofharmonystudios.com> wrote:

>So, having said that, lets say that they cancel one of the phases, <snip>

Doesn't work that way. You either have single phase or three phase
service. There's no "cancelling a phase."

>like you say above and make the 2 phases 180deg apart instead of
>120deg......in your opinion, will a studio owner benefit in any way by
>running refridgerators, heater blowers and fluorescent lights off one
>phase and studio equipment off the other? <snip>

If you're in an industrial park, you are a renter, and the service
provided is part of the rental property. An owner of such property
would be loathe to remove 3 phase service, only to have the next
tenant require it.

Just get your loads balanced and be done with it. Also, if you have
any rotating machinery higher than about 3 HP (HVAC, etc), specify 3
phase. The cost savings over time will be considerable.

dB
Anonymous
December 29, 2004 4:48:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

they call me frenchy wrote:

> I always respect your answers/opinions.

Y0u fool!! <g>

> In life, people must decide
> between trying to learn to do something themselves and just hiring
> someone else to do it for them. I suppose that topics this serious
> (power) are not to be "learnt" in a public forum...and if you choose
> to do it yourself, you get formally certified, period.

It's a groovy thing to want to learn, and sometimes a great way to do
that is to look over the shoulder of a pro and ask some questions, too.

> Indeed I will be contacting the power company to have them recommend
> which way to proceed.

Put it all back the way is used to be before you make that call.

> It has been very informative and interesting
> seeing everyones stance on this.

Understand that people are interested in helping you not wake up dead.
<g>

--
ha
Anonymous
December 29, 2004 12:45:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <vt93t0lb65ec06gor3hh3nrscagqkh33sh@4ax.com> frenchy*NO*@*SPAM*houseofharmonystudios.com writes:

> I always respect your answers/opinions. In life, people must decide
> between trying to learn to do something themselves and just hiring
> someone else to do it for them.

Sometimes the best way to learn is to hire someone with experience,
discuss the project with him before you hire him, watch what he does,
and ask questions. You'll get the job done and you'll get an education
in the process. With something like electrical power distribution,
chances are you aren't going to be doing it often enough to warrant
learning all you need to know. But what you should learn is enough to
know that you're asking the right questions, getting the right
answers, and getting satisfactory results.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Anonymous
December 29, 2004 11:16:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

they call me frenchy wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:21:21 GMT, "U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles" <"Charles
> Krug"@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 17:37:20 -0500, they call me frenchy
> ><frenchy*NO*@*SPAM*houseofharmonystudios.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I agree about your point to hire a pro to do it safely. With regard
> >> to me causing an unbalanced load between the 3 phases....When I
> >> stepped foot through the door for the 1st time (before renting), the
> >> phases were unbalanced. Some outlets on one phase, some on another,
> >> the heater blower on another. I moved 240w worth of fluorescent
> >> lights from one phase to another. In the grand scheme of everything,
> >> isnt this extremely minimal? If anything, I think my change caused
> >> the 3 phases to be used more evenly. Maybe they should credit my
> >> account?
> >>
> >
> >Nope. Remember I said, "Non intuitive."
> >
> >It is common (iirc--I may be confabulating, which is why you should hire
> >an EE or an electrician and not an embedded systems engineer who's a
> >frustrated musician)
> >
> >First, three phase is, in general a Very Good Thing. 3ph motors are
> >cheaper and smaller for equivalant HP. You want all your big
> >motors--blowers, AC compressors, etc, running on 3ph. You might even
> >consider getting a three phase refridgerator.
> >
> >Second, fluroescent lights should be distributed across all three
> >phases. They provide a nice power factor correction to the loads of
> >your motors.
> >
> >PLEASE, don't listen to us. Remember, we're all a bunch of well-trained
> >St. Bernards, and we've been nipping from those barrels we carry on our
> >collars--don't bet your life or your insurance premium on your advice.
> >
> >Hire an electrician and do it right.
>
> thank you for your input and I agree.
> The frustrating part is that most licensed electricians in backwoods,
> USA dont know a thing about studio power requirements. I am not
> saying that I do either, but I am trying to get my ducks in a row
> before paying some licensed guy alot of $$ to come in and do things
> wrong for a studio, but up to code. In an ideal world, I will be able
> to answer all his questions about why I need things a certain way and
> then pay him to do it.
>
> thx,
> frenchy

Another thing to remember. The electrical code is MINIMUM safe
standards. If someone is bragging that their work exactly meets code,
then they are working to minimum standard. This is a warning sign.

--Dale
Anonymous
December 29, 2004 11:16:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 20:16:17 GMT, Dale Farmer <dale@cybercom.net>
wrote:

> Another thing to remember. The electrical code is MINIMUM safe
>standards. If someone is bragging that their work exactly meets code,
>then they are working to minimum standard. This is a warning sign. <snip>

Exactly. "Work to code" fly-by-nighters and scabs are usually the
most dangerous electricians out there. If code prevents them from
cutting corners somewhere, they'll invariably make it back somewhere
else where the code is silent...and the NEC is NOTORIOUSLY silent on
many issues having to do with safety and reliability.

dB
Anonymous
December 30, 2004 2:59:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 17:19:48 GMT, "Paul Stamler"
<pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:

>Careful what you suggest, Bob. He might take you up on it. <snip>

I know. The bastard's already after my Social Security and Medicare
for my old age, even though the fact shows Social Security is solvent
until at least 2038, more like 2041. What scam will be invent next???

dB
Anonymous
December 31, 2004 1:15:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

DeserTBoB wrote:

> "Paul Stamler" wrote:

> >Careful what you suggest, Bob. He might take you up on it. <snip>

> I know. The bastard's already after my Social Security and Medicare
> for my old age, even though the fact shows Social Security is solvent
> until at least 2038, more like 2041. What scam will be invent next???

The Prex wants to privatize Social Security because his friends from
Enron are presently unemployed. He figures they'd know how to handle it,
and this would get them off the street.

--
ha
Anonymous
December 31, 2004 1:34:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:15:33 GMT, walkinay@thegrid.net (hank alrich)
wrote:

>The Prex wants to privatize Social Security because his friends from
>Enron are presently unemployed. He figures they'd know how to handle it,
>and this would get them off the street. <snip>

Like Paul says, "Shhhh...you're liable to give Shrub ideas!"

dB
!